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Clinton, Trump React to Recent Police Shootings; Trump Used $258,000 of Personal Charity to Settle Legal Issues. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired September 21, 2016 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[15:30:00] DON KING, FIGHT PROMOTER: If you are dancing and sliding and gliding nigger -- I mean negro.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Does that bother you? Does he bother you?

STEPHEN JACKSON, RETIRED PROFESSIONAL BASKETBALL PLAYER: Yes, I mean --

BALDWIN: That was a sigh.

JACKSON: He's just -- he's a pawn put up there to help Donald Trump. I think Don King has always been an idiot in my mind. Money. I don't think he cares about anything else but himself and he's not a person to speak for the black race at all. Even if you're speaking for Donald Trump as a black man represent yourself better, don't show up in a jean jacket with a bunch of buttons on, dress it, put a nice jacket on and look presentable. I call him Don coon and I'm going to stand by that.

BALDWIN: You can help him dress, Stephen Jackson.

JACKSON: Thank you so much.

BALDWIN: Thank you, Stephen, thank you much for coming on. Let's talk again, all right?

JACKSON: Thank you for having me, appreciate it.

BALDWIN: Thank you. Ahead, we have more breaking news, the FBI now looking for these two men. Witnesses seen removing a bomb from a bag in New York City. We'll be right back.

[15:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: We are just a couple days from the first presidential debate and there is certainly on the minds of a lot of people across the country.

There are two more African-American men who are dead after interactions with police officers. We now have reaction today from both major presidential candidates. So first joining me now the voices on this panel, Charles Coleman Jr., civil rights attorney and former NY prosecutor, CNN political commentator, Angela Rye who is also the former executive director of the Congressional Black Caucus, David Katz is with us, a former DEA senior special agent, and former Trump campaign manager Corey Lewandowski who is still receiving severance from the Trump campaign and is currently serving as a CNN political commentator.

So thank you all, so much, and first things first, let's just get to what Hillary Clinton said just a short time ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON: DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: There is still much we don't know about what happened in both incidents but we do know that we have two more names to add to a list of African Americans killed by police officers in these encounters. It's unbearable and it needs to become intolerable.

DONALD TRUMP, REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This young officer. I don't know what she was thinking. I don't know what she was thinking. But I'm very, very troubled by that. I'm very, very troubled by that and we have to be very careful. So I mean these things are terrible.

That was in my opinion a terrible, terrible situation and we've seen others, we've seen others and the police are aware of that, too. By the way, the police are troubled by it, too. They look at it. Now, did she get scared? Was she choking? What happened? But maybe people like that, people that choke, people that do that maybe they can't be doing what they're doing? OK? They can't be doing what they are doing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Trump talking to pastors in Cleveland just today. David Katz, first to you as the law enforcement representative of the panel. He is the self-proclaimed law and order candidate but to hear those words "perhaps, she choked" does that surprise you he said that?

DAVID KATZ, FORMER SPECIAL AGENT, DEA: First of all, he doesn't know and I don't know, none of us know, exactly what happened at the moment the shot was fired. Was it an accidental discharge? Was it a matter of nervousness or incompetent training? I don't know.

Or was it a situation where the gentleman moved his hand quickly to an area that is commonly used to conceal a weapon. If that's the case the shooting becomes not unjustified but justifiable. We can't tell from the view in this particular shooting and to make that comment I think is precipitous.

BALDWIN: Corey, why do you think he did that?

COREY LEWANDOWSKI, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER TRUMP CAMPAIGN MANAGER: I think what you have is obviously you've got a nation that's watching this very closely and what the initial video shows -- now look we may find other angles -- we may see other points of view on this. But what the initial video shows in that particular case is that it looked like the individual didn't have a weapon on them. And it looks like a police officer shot a person who was unarmed. As a person who served in the law enforcement community I can tell you that every decision you make in a split second like that is one you rethink a million times. And I think what we need to do is let the police do their job to investigate to find out what actually took place and not jump to conclusions.

BALDWIN: What about, Angela and Charles, there are Trump critics. I had former Philly Mayor Michael Nutter on last hour calling him a chameleon. Here he was talking to black pastors in Cleveland whereas we have seen him speaking to the Fraternal Order of Police praising police. Do you think he changes his tone depending on the audience?

CHARLES COLEMAN JR., CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: I think unquestionably when you're talking about Mr. Trump throughout this entire election as it relates to this issue and law enforcement he has put himself on the side of police almost 100 percent of the time. Very few exceptions, this is being one of them.

BALDWIN: This is a rarity.

COLEMAN: This is an absolute rarity where he's actually come out and said. "I don't know what the officer was thinking", et cetera, et cetera. There are a lot of things that I can say he has maybe waffled on. This is not a waffle. He has been consistent, I would say this is really an exception to anything and everything he said on this issue or anything related in the entire campaign.

BALDWIN: How is this different though, Angela, from Hillary Clinton who tweeted out the names of the victims and is essentially is saying this has to stop?

ANGELA RYE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think it's very different, I think you have someone to Charles's last immediate point that -- and Mayor Nutter's point, of course not only this shifts depending on the audience he is speaking to but shifts based on how he feels that day, that hour, that minute, that second.

And so it is very hard to determine whether or not this person is genuinely feeling some type of way of compassion to what is going on. I think Hillary Clinton has a track record of demonstrating that she understands, that she grieves with the mothers who lost their kids to police violence, to vigilantes who had a space to speak, a platform to speak at the Democratic national convention.

[15:40:00] She demonstrated consistently through the work of her senior advisors this is a space she understands. Donald Trump has not done that. Instead Donald Trump has called black people who look like me thugs in situations like this. He's perpetuating that myth of us being inherently violent and criminal and in this one instance he's done something very different. Unfortunately, it's taken away by the fact that Don King is introducing him using negro and the "n" word and Donald Trump is in the back smirking. So I don't find it to be genuine, either.

COLEMAN: I also think it's really important to note that Donald Trump has made this about this one incident whereas at least at a minimum Hillary Clinton has somewhat acknowledged that this is a systemic problem that needs to be addressed. And I think that that's an important contrast if you look at how they handle the situation differently.

BALDWIN: Hang on, I do want to go back to Corey Lewandowski just to respond to especially Angela's point then we'll move on to Don King and the "n" word. Corey?

LEWANDOWSKI: You know, Brooke, it's interesting that when Donald Trump doesn't show empathy he's criticized. When he doesn't go to a black community he's criticized, when he does go to the black community and says the things that the nation is feeling right now, which is, hey, let's find out what's going on first, he's criticized.

And if you remember it wasn't that long ago where unfortunately there was a police incident where an officer shot an individual who is running away from him in the back down south. And Donald Trump not only criticized that individual but criticized the practices that that individual employed. And that was a black individual who was running away from an officer who is shot in the back multiple times.

Donald Trump came out and spoke very, very adamantly against that officer. So what I find is the criticism right now that Donald Trump is saying, you know what, we have to understand what went on first, and he is being criticized for asking people to look at the facts and if something did not go right, then that person should be held accountable. That's what a leader does.

BALDWIN: When he was speaking in reference that maybe she choked that was in reference to the Tulsa shooting, but in reference to the Charlotte shooting, David Katz we know the officer is African American, we know the police chief in Charlotte-Mecklenburg PD is African American, does race matter?

KATZ: First of all, this particular incident as far as we know --

BALDWIN: Which one are you referring to?

KATZ: Charleston.

RYE: It's actually Charlotte.

KATZ: Sorry. Got an individual who gets out of a car with a firearm, an individual with a criminal record which included -- don't shake your head, included carrying a concealed weapon, there is a predicate for this, the officer who responds is African American so please explain to me how race is an issue there.

RYE: I'm happy to do that.

KATZ: Hold on. Let me finish the point. By all accounts by the police department I understand he was reading, he was going to church he was ready to deliver Christmas presents, I get that. RYE: Wow.

KATZ: But for all accounts right now we have a guy getting out of a car with a firearm, we have an officer telling him repeatedly, drop the weapon, the officer discharges the weapon, that's a 100 percent justifiable shooting, please explain to me how -- and also with the black police chief -- how that is racist.

BALDWIN: I want you to respond. Quick break. We'll be right back with Angela's response.

[15:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: So we're back, bringing my panel back in, we were just talking about the recent shooting, the fatal shooting in Charlotte, David Katz, we were asking -- I was asking you the fact that the police chief in Charlotte, the officer, you know, as well, African American you were sort of saying well, how would race factor in perhaps into that shooting. You wanted to respond.

RYE: So I think that often times in these discussions we come at them from various paradigms. I'm all the way over here, you're all the way on the other side, so I think I should take a step back and define systemic oppression. Here's an internet definition -- institutional oppression is the systematic mistreatment of people within a social identity group supported and enforced by the society and its institution solely based on the person's membership in that identity group.

And I'm bringing that up to you to say -- I hope that's not confusing because I tried to bring up the definition.

KATZ: I understand. I have an advanced degree in everything.

RYE: Very good. My point is you can be an implementer or a part of a system that has issues with systematic prejudice, oppression and racism and be a person of color because that has everything to do with the systems in place, how you're trained, seeing somebody as inherently violent and criminal as we talked about earlier and still participate in that, and still make the same fatal mistake which is what we've seen here.

We don't know the facts. I'm not going to say this man did not have a book. That's not the only story that exists. His daughter said he had a book. My paradigm is that in my community often times police officers embellish police reports, they lie in police reports. We saw in Walter Scott which Corey was referencing earlier in the South Carolina shooting where the officer went back to try to plant a Taser.

That has happened. It's happened in my family. My cousin was beat by the police so I'm saying we can come at this from different paradigms but it's very important to respect each other's --

KATZ: Can I try something different? Charles you and I discussed this off camera. When I was at a very young age I was on an arrest team during an undercover operation. I burst into the room, I'm holding a guy at gunpoint five to six feet away from me, Police, DEA don't move. Hands are up here. He does this. He reaches down lifts up his sweatshirt and puts his hand right to his waistband. Shoot or don't shoot?

RYE: I don't understand what that has to do with the fact that --

KATZ: It is critically important because I am making a point here.

RYE: The point you are making is not one that's part of the fact patterns we've been presenting.

COLEMAN: I do want to come back to a point. A few things you said I had a problem with when you talked about the officers' approach. You mentioned ultimately the victim had a record. As I have said on the show before, as officers approach, they don't know that.

RYE: That's right.

COLEMAN: That's not a relevant part of the conversation. That's not a fact that's relevant to this discussion because that's not a fact that officer knew when they approached.

KATZ: Maybe it is.

COLEMAN: It could have been.

RYE: That's not true.

[15:50:00] COLEMAN: When you talk about maybe he was about to give out Christmas presents, that level of cynicism, that is insulting --

KATZ: We're talking about a man with a gun.

COLEMAN: That is insulting --

KATZ: That you say has a book

RYE: Exactly. There are different fact patterns.

COLEMAN: For you to talk about a human person who is now dead, whose family now has to live without a father, with that level of cynicism, I am personally insulted by that.

KATZ: OK, let me respond, if he had a firearm, does it make a difference to you?

COLEMAN: No, it does not.

KATZ: Well, then, so you're saying that anyone can take out a weapon and brandish it at a police officer and should not be shot?

RYE: There are all these additional facts.

COLEMAN: you are right and that is why I am qualified to answer this question. Brooke just brought up the fact that earlier this week in Linden, New Jersey, there was a man who was reputed to be armed and dangerous, not only reputed but he got into a shootout with officers, wounded two and was carried out on a stretcher, while being armed and dangerous. After being suspected of bombing multiple locations in the tristate area. When you talk to me --

KATZ: You think he was wounded intentionally.

COLEMAN: Whether it was intentional or not he was alive. He was taken alive.

KATZ: I didn't get the point.

RYE: The point is that black people are killed when others are wounded, that's the point.

LEWANDOWSKI: It's egregious to think the potential terrorist in New Jersey was shot and wounded but not killed because he was white.

RYE: Nobody said that, Corey.

LEWANDOWSKI: He said that

COREY: He wasn't black.

LEWANDOWSKI: We all agree he was white, the terrorist who set off a bomb.

RYE: I don't think he was white.

COLEMAN: We don't agree on that.

LEWANDOWSKI: The second point is the individual who was killed, the second point is the police officer who stopped the individual, who was also African American, has no history perpetuating any types of crimes against African Americans. Nothing in his record says he has been a bad police officer or whatsoever, so this narrative that Angela is perpetuating where he has this built-in notion that he doesn't agree just he is of the same race is egregious. There is nothing racist about this whatsoever, what the larger story is they have an individual who is dead. That's the larger story. Race has nothing to do with that.

RYE: Corey, it actually has everything to do with it. You don't understand systemic oppression. You made that clear.

LEWANDOWSKI: I do understand it. What I know is that 93 percent of --

BALDWIN: Got to go. OK. Appreciate it, here we go before I let everyone else go, let's get to another political headline today, thank you.

The Trump campaign reacting to a new report claiming the Republican nominee's personal charity used more than $250,000 to settle lawsuits involving his business interests. According to this "Washington Post" review of legal documents and interviews Trump used a potentially illegal tactic four times, cutting checks from foundation money, which is funded mostly by donors rather than his own pocketbook. His campaign manager has responded.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: Are you concerned at all that Trump may have broken the law?

KELLYANNE CONWAY, TRUMP CAMPAIGN MANAGER: No. And I would point out in the second paragraph of that story mentioned, Erin, it says may have. Later on in the story it says the IRS may want to look into it. But of course, they haven't. Let's go back. I think this is a classic Donald Trump. He wanted to raise the American flag as high as he possibly could over Mar-a-Lago. I think a lot of Americans at this point would applaud that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Straight to Gloria Borger, our CNN chief political analyst. We've heard Trump bragging about using what he refers to as OPM. Other people's money. How do these charity accusations actually reflect on his campaign?

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I think it is a problem for him if Hillary Clinton raises it. However, they both have problems on the foundation front, so it gets a little bit more complicated.

[15:55:00] There are also charges are about self-dealing, with pay for play, giving a political contribution to the attorney general of Florida, Pam Bondi. And he has charged the Clinton Foundation with conflict of interest from foreign contributions.

Now, we also know that could be a problem for him. So I think the way to clear this up, and this is what Kellyanne was talking about. She said the IRS is looking into it. Or the IRS is not looking into it. We don't know. Donald Trump is being audited and we haven't seen his tax returns.

So one way to clear up this whole issue of the money for charitable giving would be to release your tax returns and put it under a magnifying glass. Again, it's one of these questions that would be politically good for Hillary to use against him if she didn't have the issues, you know, with the Clinton Global Initiative that have been out there.

But it might, could blunt his charges against Hillary because then she has something to come back at him with. So, you know, both of these people have problems on this front. So it doesn't benefit one or the other. But it could blunt him to a certain degree in any kind of political debate because she has a good follow.

BALDWIN: Which is just a couple of days away.

BORGER: YES.

BALDWIN: Gloria Borger, thank you so much in Washington.

BORGER: Sure.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, back to violent protests breaking out after the police shoot and kill a father of seven.