Return to Transcripts main page

Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Federal Authorities in Oklahoma Vigorously Trying to Get to Bottom of Police Shooting in Tulsa; Police Shootings in Tulsa and Charlotte Have Drawn Attention of Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired September 21, 2016 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:30:02] PHIL MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: ... do in the case is to prove over the course of weeks and months that you can guarantee that nobody else, either acted within this individual or knew what he was up to. Remember the characteristics of cases like this. Where did he get his money? Where did he get the indoctrination, the radicalization to go down this path? Did someone point him to a website that lead him to be able to build these devices? I don't care whether someone was peripheral to the case, including somebody who found that duffel bag to prove that negative, that he never had assistance from somebody else, you've got to talk to everybody and investigate everything and that takes a long time.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Yeah. It may just be to cross them off any kind of prosecution ...

MUDD: Yeah.

BANFIELD: ... at least at this point. So James, to that end, these two men, whoever might know who they are, they themselves might have just seen their pictures all over television. It's important that the police actually said, at this time, we don't -- they're safe. We don't want to arrest them. That's not a red herring is it?

JAMES GAGLIANO, FORMER FBI SPECIAL AGENT: Certainly, Ashleigh. There's a clear distinction here between what we refer to as a person of interest and a suspect. I mean, these men are wanted for questioning, and as Phil mentioned, there's a lot of different pieces of forensic evidence that we might be able to take off of that duffel bag. You can take fingerprints you can determine where it was purchased. That helps lead you to those who might have been complicit in this terror plot if they were.

But otherwise the folks that they're looking for might just be people that were indiscriminately in that area or they people that could have also been involved they could've helped this suspect out. They could've delivered a couple of the other -- there were 10 bombs I think in total, that could have helped him deliver it. And each of those people that are integral or connected to this are going to be what we call human intelligence. People that you want to talk to, to try to backtrack and find out whether or not this suspect had assistance in what he was doing.

BANFIELD: Well, let me tell you. If you're the guy who's dispatched to open the bag and bring out the garbage bag with an active bomb in it to leave it behind, you have the worst job in that chain. I'm just going to put that on the record. Phil Mudd, you heard me say before we went to break that the police just said that Ahmad Rahami is not medically cleared for questioning yet.

MUDD: Yeah.

BANFIELD: And I'm reading into that. Maybe he's not medically clear for questioning at the state level but he's federally cleared, because isn't the more important case here the federal case with the terrorism charges, with the bombing charges with the weapons of mass destruction charges? Those charges all told together equal a few lifetimes of prison.

MUDD: Ashleigh, I don't think the federal case is significant here. The question is ...

BANFIELD: But you don't think the federal case is significant?

MUDD: No. In terms of the requirement to question this individual quickly.

BANFIELD: OK.

MUDD: It's not about investigating what happened, it's about determining quickly whether there's another individual out there ...

BANFIELD: Oh, no. You misheard my question. Phil, My question was about questioning the suspect who's in a hospital bed now.

MUDD: Yeah.

BANFIELD: They said he's not medically cleared for questioning, but I have my suspicions that for the last two days the feds have been in that room just like they were where Tsarnaev demanding, to hell with the Miranda issue, there could be still this imminent threat which means you get the quarrels effort, right? You get the exemption from Miranda. That's what I'm suggesting. When they said he is to medically cleared, maybe for state questioning but for federal questioning, he's got to be Phil, he's got to be cleared for that?

MUDD: It sounds like he's being questioned already. I mean there's comments out there that he's not participating in the debriefing. Other words he's not cooperative. As I mentioned earlier those federal charges as you suggest are significant to give them the opportunity to question him. I don't care what happened, Ashleigh. What I care about is does he have a piece of information that will prevent something else from happening. That's the first question I have. Not whether I can prove he participated in the bombings that occurred earlier.

BANFIELD: Right. Again the imminent threat is always a concern.

MUDD: Yeah.

BANFIELD: And the first, you know, and by the way, there's no measurement for it. It's not like it's a 12, 24, 48-hour thing. It's just when does the threat feel like it's passed. So could be days. Phil Mudd and James Gagliano, thank you so much appreciate lots of your insight in the breaking story.

Coming up, I wan to go back to something we were talking about off the top of this program. But yet another shooting that's gripping this country and an unarmed man shot and killed by police, but this other story is from before the one we led the show and this one instead is the Tulsa story. All got caught on video.

[12:34:19] Next up, how can we see any differences, any excuses or lack thereof on this video? We're going to compare what we saw in the video to the officers' account, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Well we come to grips with what's happening in Charlotte, federal authorities in Oklahoma State Officials are vigorously trying to get to the bottom of a police shooting in Tulsa. The difference in this case, Terence Crutcher was most definitely unarmed, but before we show you the video I'll again want to warn you that it is extremely upsetting. But it's important for you to see this, so you can get an understanding of the dynamics in this case.

Because in the video we showed you off the top of the show and a video of this, you can see dashcam and police helicopter videos in this particular case. You could see Crutcher had his hands up as he was walking back towards his SUV. What's in dispute here, that was what he did once he got to that vehicle. What it was that resulted in Officer Betty Shelby firing a lethal shot. We're going to dig into that in just a moment.

First, though, what no one can dispute is there is a broken-hearted family affected forever by what transpired on Friday. Terence Crutcher's family was on NEW DAY this morning and openly talked about their grief.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[12:40:02] LEANNA CRUTCHER, TERENCE CRUTCHER'S MOTHER: What's breaking my heart is that his youngest son, we call him little Terence, asked me, day before yesterday, where is my dad? Because he hadn't seen him, you know in a couple of days. So in his mind, he's wondering what's going on, so we told him because we are people of faith that dad went to heaven, and that kind of satisfied him for the moment, because he knows that dad is in a good place.

DR. TIFFANY CRUTCHER, TERENCE CRUTCHER'S SISTER: I have a final text message, the very last one where he told me that he loved me. I told him that I loved him. And he said, God is going to get the glory out of my life, in that text message. If any good can come out of this, we're hoping that America will open their eyes, everybody, and see that there is an issue a systemic issue that needs to be solved and we're pleading with the leadership of this country, everyone, to just see that and let's put some systems in place to prevent this from happening again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So the attorney for the officer involved here, Betty Shelby, that attorney has also been very open in sharing the officer's side of the story. That attorney was also on our program, NEW DAY, this morning and maintained that Officer Betty Shelby had every reason to believe that Terence Crutcher did, in fact, have a gun.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCOTT WOOD, ATTORNEY FOR OFC. BETTY SHELBY: The fact that somebody who's being held at gunpoint simply turns their back and walks to their car. I think that you can imply some type of motive or intent for someone who's returning to their car to do what? Get in it and leave? He was standing at the door. Therefore, quite a few seconds, never tried to open the door and get in or leave, but it was that furtive movement at the door that made both Officer Shelby fire her weapon and Officer Turnbough who's with her discharge his taser.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Officer Shelby's attorney went on to say that, now knowing, that he did not have a weapon she wishes that she could have done something else. But here is the thing. There are a number of people argue that she could have done something else.

I want to talk to CNN Legal Analyst Joey Jackson and Paul Callan and CNN Law Enforcement Analyst Cedric Alexander. Cedric served as a the president of the National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executive and he is also written a new book called, The New Guardians, Policing in America's Communities for the 21st Century.

Cedric, if I can begin with you. I want to go through what we have and know so far as evidence in this case and they are photographic. If you look at a zoomed-in photograph, Benjamin Crump, who's working with the family of Terence Crutcher, showed the media a zoomed-in photograph of the driver's side window of Crutcher's SUV, where you can clearly see that that window is up. You can even -- and sad to say this, you can even see Mr. Crutcher's blood dripping down the window and on to the car door.

Some might point to the window behind it as appearing to be open, but definitely the driver's side window is closed. We have a different wider angle so that you can see the window behind the driver's side window.

Cedric, I'm not sure. It looks to me that that window is also up, but other people, have said it looked like it could be the back seat of the vehicle. Hard to tell, but does that give you any further information about what the officer involved may have needed to see before she fired?

CEDRIC ALEXANDER, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, let me say a couple of things, Ashleigh. First of all, our prays go out to the family who had the loss of their son. But let me say this. There's going to be an administrative and legal process that's going to deal with what happened out there on that particular evening. But in a much larger scale, this is about public opinion. This is about the optic that people are seeing through that video that just does not fit very well with the American people.

And I'm talking about all the American people, so if you look at that video, you look at it over and over and over, no matter how much you try to make sense of it, it certainly creates a great deal of pause, and that creates the further frustration that people in this country are feeling.

Let me tell you something, I've gotten -- I don't know how many calls today from people across the country and people are tired of seeing these types of events that create so much question where there did not appear, in just going by the video, there did not appear that those officers were in any immediate danger.

[12:45:00] So it creates a very difficult process for police administrators like myself in a communities and their elected officials to try to provide some justification to it, because you see it over and over and over again. And America's tired of it, they're frustrated with it, they're hearing the same language over and over again that something needs to be done.

In five days -- I'll close here. In five days there's going to be a presidential debate. And that debate needs to encompass economic policy, foreign policy, but it also needs to encompass what is going to be the policy, what is going to happen under your watch that's going to change the trajectory of what is going on between police and community in this country. And they need to be forced to answer those questions so that American people will have an understanding that this is going to fall on their watch, and they're going to need to deal with it.

BANFIELD: Let me jump in with, listen, this is never a popular effort, when you give the benefit of the doubt to a police officer in a police shooting because these movements move so quickly and so painfully and there's so much emotion involved. But any attorney worth his or her salt has to do that, has to look at every aspect. And if you're police officers out there across the country I'm sure that's what you're thinking as well.

I do want to ask this, Paul Callan, the officer in this case said that she asked Crutcher whether the car belong to him, got no response, that Crutcher began walking toward her with his hands in his pockets. He comply eventually, takes his hands off his pocket. But then continue to ignore Officer Shelby's questions about the vehicle and at one point began walking back towards the vehicle. At one point put his hands back in his pocket. She called dispatch. She was intent of arresting him because she thought he was under the influence.

She drew her gun and ordered Crutcher to get on his knees. He refused to do so and instead walk towards his car and after that the window became the issue.

She was by herself at the beginning and drew her weapon because of that. Other officers secondary on the site drew tasers instead. So tactically is there anything wrong with what you see of her account, Paul?

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I think this sums up something we've seen in a lot of cases. The officer -- from the officer's perspective, she felt threatened. She thought he was acting oddly. And by the way, that camera angle you showed at the beginning of this segment was obviously not the same angle that the officer was witnessing the approach to the vehicle from. The video we just saw, she doesn't -- she can't really see whether the driver side window was open or not and probably thinks he's reaching in for a gun, which clearly, he is not.

And I think what this says to me is these cases are about police training and teaching them that they have to be able to communicate to somebody on the road who's a criminal suspect exactly what they want them to do. And obviously, Mr. Crutcher didn't realize what he was being asked. He was probably going to the car to get his license. And all of a sudden, you know, he's been shot and killed.

Now, it seems to me that officer may have been reasonably fearful but she didn't adequately communicate to him as to what he was supposed to do. Because unless he's an insane person he would have gone to the ground, gotten on his knees rather than face being shot.

BANFIELD: Well, she did mention that she thought he was under the influence of something. And Joey to that I want to bring that into this dynamic because the first lawyer to comment on this, the officer for Betty Shelby. Scott Wood said this, "People who under the influence have unpredictable behavior, whether you are black, white, Hispanic, or black."

But if you compare that to the attorney for Mr. Crutcher's family, David Riggs said this, "This is a textbook case of how not to handle someone in that situation."

And police say they found PCP in the car. Are drugs or the effect of drugs or the behavior that drugs might actually elicit going to be part of this case?

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: You know, it will be Ashleigh, but it's important to point out the following, toxicology is of course significant but there has to be some nexus, some connection between the toxicology and the behavior of the person, the behavior of the suspect, there are people who may in fact be under the influence who don't represent any danger. There may be people who are, you know, have nothing in their system who are very dangerous.

And so, it turns on the legal principles that they all turn on. What was the immediacy of the danger where was he representing a danger to seriously physically injure her or to kill her? And in the alternative did she act reasonably to that danger and did the force she use, was it proportionate to any threat posed?

And so, yes, toxicology is significant, it's important whether it's in the system, but without tieing that toxicology, Ashleigh, to the behavior at issue to demonstrate that that person was a threat, the toxicology becomes irrelevant. And so it needs to be tied in, in that specific way.

BANFIELD: I sure hope that they process that scene really, really well forensically.

Cedric, I have to wrap it there. Unfortunately we had so much breaking news. And I'm going to have you on again and again, and you know it. You're a guarantee guest for sure. So Cedric Alexander, thank you, Joey Jackson, Paul Callan, thank you both for your thoughts as well.

[12:50:09] The candidates, yes, they are already weighing in on these shootings. Coming up, Donald Trump's reaction after he saw the video from the shooting in Tulsa and Hillary Clinton's reaction as well, how different were they? How similar were they? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: The police shootings in Tulsa and Charlotte have drawn the attention of Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump while they are on their respective campaign trails. And just a short time ago at a meeting with pastors in Cleveland, Donald Trump was asked specifically for his take on the shootings. Trump said he had seen the video at least from Tulsa. Have a listen to how he responded.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: To me it looked like he did everything you're supposed to do. And he looked like a really good man, and maybe I'm a little clouded, because I saw his family talking about him after the fact. So you get a little bit, you know, different image, maybe, but to me he looked like a, you know, somebody that was doing what they were asking him to do.

And this young officer -- I don't know what she was thinking. I don't know what she was thinking. But I'm very, very troubled by that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Last night at a different event, Donald Trump said that African-American communities are in the worst shape ever, and then for good measure added, ever, ever, ever, and a place like Afghanistan he said is safer than some inner cities that's drawn a lot of ire. But this was a very different message today.

Joining me now, the Politics Editor for TheRoot.com Jason Johnson and CNN Political Analyst, Josh Rogin, a columnist for the Washington Post.

Jason if I can begin with you. I think a lot of people might have been somewhat surprised at the response of the reaction that Donald Trump just gave. But then again, his audience was a group of black pastors as well. I wanted to just get your read on whether sort of the community's reaction has caught up with Donald Trump or at least his campaign and whether he is now trying to accommodate for that.

JASON JOHNSON, POLITICAL EDITOR THEROOT.COM: Ashleigh, honestly I just think he actually read the audience. This is called good training by his new campaign team. But the important thing to remember for any candidate is this, you have to look at, what do they say in front of a particular audience versus what's their policy. And Donald Trump is saying, "Hey, look, this tape looks really bad, we should do something about it." But how was Donald Trump responded to instances the police brutality in the past? He said, "We need stronger cops. We need to defend cops." He said, "Blue lives matter." He have said that he wants protesters to be beaten up and he'll pay for them to be beaten up, protesters who complained about issues like police brutality.

[12:55:01] So the fact that he says something nice in the middle of a black church for one of his surrogates doesn't mean his policy connects with how he has behaving in that environment and that's something that people will going to remember.

BANFIELD: All right, Josh maybe you can jump in on the Hillary Clinton tweet that came out without all of this in the last hour, I believe. Keith Lamont Scott, Terence Crutcher, too many others. This has got to end. Is it politics as usual for Hillary Clinton, or does she have to step up her game now that Donald Trump has sort of stepped into her territory there?

JOSH ROGIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: You know, well, I think the political calculation for the Clinton campaign here is clear, right? They've been very sort of supportive of the African-American community's concerns over this.

According to the fraternal order of police she didn't even seek their endorsement. They ended up endorsing Trump. You know, the Clinton team knows that over 90 percent of African-Americans are supportive of her, at the same time there's an enthusiasm gap. So she's trying to delicately signal to this community that she would be active and wouldn't draw false equivalents and that she will advocate for their side of this debate.

BANFIELD: Now that you mentioned that, the advocation part. Let me just actually mention to you that her campaign manager, Robby Mook, said just today that she's sending out a two-prong approach, that she's going to establish a national set of standards around how to manage police-involved shooting. And then her second prong, is restore bonds between community and law enforcement. Look, I heard that a million times this, you know, re-establish the bond between the community and law enforcement, everybody says that. It's a real platitude.

But what about that? I'm going to get you both to comment in 30 second or less if you can. Josh, finish your comment. Jason finish up after Josh on that set of national standards. Actual policy, wow.

ROGIN: Sure. Yeah, I mean, it's a good thing to say that Hillary Clinton campaign should be careful not to promise things they can't deliver. This is a national problem that based in communities. It really can't be solved from the White House. And at the same time if she's elected, she'll have to represent both sides in order to bring them together. So she has to play it delicately by energizing her base without getting too far at one side.

BANFIELD: Jason what do you think?

JOHNSON: It's really simple. It's all about accountability. And if her policy is for accountability, it's good. If you're a bad cop, a bad teacher or a bad EMT, your costing the taxpayers money and something should be done about it. Whatever candidate says that next Monday is probably get a lot of people's votes.

BANFIELD: All right, I have to leave it there guys. Thank you so much Jason Johnson, Josh Rogin I do appreciate it.

ROGIN: Thank you.

BANFIELD: And by the way, thank you everyone. It's been a real rockin' and rollin' hour. A lot of breaking news. We appreciate you watching Legal View.

Stay tuned my colleague Wolf Blitzer starts right after this quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:00:07] WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Hello. I'm Wolf Blitzer. It's 1:00 p.m. here in Washington, 6:00 p.m. in London, 8:00 p.m. in Jerusalem, wherever you're watching from around the world, thanks very much for joining us.