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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
National Guard Mobilized After Two Nights of Violence; Attorney: Scott Family Has Seen Video of Fatal Shooting; Third Night Of Protests Underway In Charlotte. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired September 22, 2016 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[20:00:09] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. Thanks for joining us.
Tonight, two American cities grappling with the aftermath of fatal police shootings of African-American men. Two families in mourning in Tulsa, Oklahoma. The officer who killed Terence Crutcher on Friday is now charged with first degree manslaughter. We'll have the latest from Tulsa in a moment.
But we begin with breaking news in Charlotte, North Carolina, where the National Guard has been mobilized after two nights of violent protests over the police shooting of the Keith Lamont Scott.
There is police video of that shooting. The family has now seen the video. They say they now have more questions than answers. The police chief says the public will not see the video.
We'll hear from the family attorney a little later in the broadcast.
First, Boris Sanchez was in the thick of the protest hours last night. He joins us again tonight.
I understand the family just issued a statement about what they say the video shows.
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Anderson. As you said, they say they have more questions now than answers. They say watching this video was extremely difficult for them, but they say they have seen some things in the video that are inconsistent with what they have heard from police.
First off, they say, it is impossible to tell from the angle in the video what Mr. Scott was holding in his hands the moment he was shot. They also say that he didn't approach police aggressively. As a matter of fact, they say he was moving backwards apparently with his arms down at the time he was shot, Anderson. The reaction here on the street so far has been peaceful.
We're actually right outside the Omni Hotel with that violent encounter with police was really sparked yesterday. We've seen about 70 or 80 people out here. There are actually some faith leaders here earlier, leading a prayer with a lot of people. They have since moved out. Now, it is just locals, again, for the
most part, peaceful, having conversations, leaving behind signs and mementos for those affected by the violence last night and for Mr. Scott himself.
The concern is, how violent will tonight get? Law enforcement is waiting and watching.
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As the sun came up in Charlotte Thursday, the scope of destruction from violent protests the night before came into full view. It was a far cry from how local leaders had hoped that things would go Wednesday night.
CHIEF KERR PUTNEY, CHARLOTTE MECKLENBURG POLICE: We have had a lot of things that transpired last night that we're still trying to piece together.
SANCHEZ: The night began peacefully, demonstrators gathering outside police headquarters holding signs and carrying slogans. Things quickly devolved, a less peaceful group growing and making its way downtown, leaping on cars, hurling rocks, and making threats toward police.
A dramatic encounter outside the Omni Hotel sparked violence. A SWAT team and officers in full riot gear were mobilized. Then, chaos erupted.
As officers tried to disperse the crowd with tear gas, flash bangs and rubber bullet, looters smashed windows of downtown hotels and businesses. The crowd targeted police vehicles, went after members of the media and even each other.
Shortly after midnight, a state of emergency was declared but it did little to slow the violence. Finally, by 3:00 a.m., things began to calm. In the end, five police officers and nine civilians were injured.
PUTNEY: We made a total of 44 arrests. Charges range from failure to disperse, to assault, to breaking and entering. Basically breaking into businesses and stealing.
As I said, we're going to continue to review the video footage, because I do not believe we have all the criminal suspects to charge with various crimes at this point. And we'll not rest until we bring all people to justice.
SANCHEZ: While more than 300 National Guard members were sent to Charlotte to help keep the peace, Mayor Jennifer Roberts tried Thursday morning to reassure her reeling community.
MAYOR JENNIFER ROBERT, CHARLOTTE, NORTH CAROLINA: Today, our city is open for business as usual. And we let people know, come to our uptown. We're here working. Our buses are running. We are here to serve and the city is open. SANCHEZ: Whether it will remain business as usual may depend on
footage captured by dash and body cameras before the moments before Keith Lamont Scott was shot and killed.
Police said Thursday that while they would not release the video publicly, they would show it to Scott's family. But no matter what it may reveal, the family's attorney said this of the events surrounding his death.
JUSTIN BAMBERG, ATTORNEY FOR SCOTT FAMILY: Let me make this very clear, this family, this family does not -- does not agree with rioting or innocent individuals being injured or killed. But they do support citizens and their right to voice their frustration, to voice to their anger.
[20:05:06] COOPER: Boris, I understand you are just learning some news about the man shot last night during the protest. What do you know?
SANCHEZ: Yes, Anderson. His name is Justin Carr and he's 26-year-old young man who was killed right out here at the Omni Hotel. And you can see, there's actually a vigil around. There is a stain on the ground where he went down.
There's a lot of misinformation at the time that this happened. There was so much confusion, so much noise out there. People weren't really sure.
What we've heard from officials is that this was a civilian on civilian act and that he was shot by another person in the crowd, by another protester, not by police. But at the time that this happened, again, there was so much confusion, it fuelled the anger here. People thought that police shot another person, and that really riled the crowd up.
As far as law enforcement out there right now, the National Guard is out on street corners. I saw a line of them as we were walking in this direction. Very heavily armed. Very large vehicles they have with them as well. The police are also out here.
So in terms of tone, the way this night is starting this is certainly a much larger law enforcement presence. It appears that they are taking this very seriously, different from what we saw last night where at first the protesters heavily outnumbered police, Anderson.
COOPER: Yes. All right. Boris, we'll continue to check in with you over these two hours.
The violent protest that Charlotte's been dealing with put a strain on whole community, particularly law enforcement officers who's job it is to keep the peace.
Joining me now is cultural critic and sociology professor, Michael Eric Dyson, criminologist and former LAPD officer, David Klinger, and criminal justice expert and retired NYPD lieutenant, Darren Porcher.
David, the police chief said based on the video evidence he's seen, which includes dash cam or body cam video, he's not able to tell if Scott was pointing a gun. If he had a gun but was not pointing at an officer, would deadly force be justified? Because this is an open carry state.
DAVID KLINGER, CRIMINOLOGIST: It depends. It depends on what the suspect was doing.
Police officers are trained and common sense would dictate that you can't wait until the gun is pointed, because when the gun is pointed, by definition, they are able to squeeze a round off. So, police officers are trained if someone is doing something with a firearm that leads a reasonable officer to believe that they are about to bring to bear, to shoot at them, then it is appropriate to use deadly force.
And so, one of the things that we have to get straight here is we have to get straight what the law says and what the training says. And both training and law, court case after court case, it -- the judges have always ruled that police officers do not have to wait until a weapon is raised.
So, the question is, if someone is merely standing there with a gun, typically, there is no justification to shoot. There would be some circumstances where it would be appropriate. But we have to know the totality of the circumstances to get some understanding of what was going on and what movement if any was going on with the hand that was holding the gun.
COOPER: Michael Eric Dyson, does that make sense to you?
MICHAEL ERIC DYSON, SOCIOLOGY PROFESSOR: Yes, it does, if all things are equal, but they are not. First of all, in an open carry state, why is it then if the law justifies the ability of a citizen to possess a firearm, that they have anticipated that any herky-jerky move can be broadly interpreted as a fearsome one and therefore, as a threatening one?
But it seems that that fearsomeness and that threat always, if not always, usually is associated with an African-American person. So, that now the prospect of fear in the mind of the police is culturally induced as well as physically apparent. That is to say the same move by a white person may not strike the same fear as one by an African- American.
So, it seems to me that in this open-carry states, if the point of the Second Amendment is for the citizens to be able to wield their guns, it seems again there is a kind of self-sensor that has to come out about when you're an African-American or Latino because you don't have the same mobility in range of display of that weapon as other citizens do.
COOPER: Well, Darren, let me bring you in. Where do you stand on this? I mean, without the video evidence to back up the claims of a threat, does it -- does it hurt the police narrative? I mean, I'm not clear on why they don't release the video? I know there is new law going in place soon they are not able to. I don't believe it is in place, though, just yet.
DARREN PORCHER, RETIRED NYPD LIEUTENANT: Well, I worked a as a lieutenant in the internal affairs here in NYPD. And on many instances, I investigated these police shootings.
One of the key components is the officer must believe that that individual, meaning the suspect, is possibly going to cause deadly physical force or very serious injury to either the officer or a third person.
Now, in connection with this video displays, it is very difficult to make that assessment, because case in point, when we look at what happened in Oklahoma, for example, we had two different views. We had a view from a helicopter that showed you one perspective whereas we saw the window was up.
However, when you look at the dash cam video for the officer that was on the ground, it was very difficult for her to assess if the window was either down or up.
[20:10:02] I looked at this particular instance, and it's -- we have a lot of holes here. But one problem that I have is the police chief. He's making a series of statements in connection with this video. Just release the video, because as opposed to giving us short snippets, because the public has a hunger or fester for knowledge with this case. And I think that's what caused the combustible situation that we had in North Carolina.
And the police chief -- I want to say the department should be far more transparent in releasing that information. Therefore, we can make a proper as to what actually happened with that police, a deadly, in harm or fear of deadly physical force or serious injury.
COOPER: David, do you believe the video should be released? Is there an argument to not release the video?
KLINGER: Yes, I think there is a very good argument to not release the video, and that is the integrity of the investigation. It's very important that people understand that you cannot release a video unless and until you've got all witnesses have been interviewed and then any sort of cross-check that needs to go back in terms of re- interview, because you don't want to pollute the minds of the witnesses with this additional information.
And I also argue police officers should not look at the videos that are about a particular situation where they have discharged their firearm until after they have given their statement. And if there are discrepancies, they can be addressed.
Now, I want to double back on something Eric had to say, and what I would is that there is absolutely no empirical evidence from the field that indicates police officers are going to be quicker on the trigger when it is a black suspect versus a white suspect. There are all sorts of laboratory experiments about static photographers but once we put officers and citizens in laboratories where it's movement, there is no difference in terms of the timing, in terms of when officers pull the trigger.
And I would also suggest that he should take a look at the third chapter of my book "Into the Kill Zone" and talk to actual police officers who have actually done the job because my experience, having worked the south central area in southern California many, many years ago and talking literally to hundreds of police officers, they do not look at black people as any more aggressive than white people when the gun is coming out.
The question is, where is that gun? And if the gun is coming into a posture that is perceived to be threatening, then they are going to go into the trigger.
DYSON: You know, that sounds great in terms of a laboratory. But we are have a living laboratory out here and that is the actual existence of black people in communities where time and again, this scenario is being repeated. So, that may be true in terms of scientific empirical verification for the likelihood of a differential response.
But what we know is that the fear of African-American and Latino people and the set of stereotypes that inform both racial profiling that occurs among police people widely and broadly, the kind of culture suspicion that is associated with African-American bodies, this is not something that is quarantined to mere police investigation. This is something that is deep and pervasive in the culture.
And how could we possibly believe that police people who are reared in this culture, trained by the same people who trained this across a number of professions would somehow be exempt from same of the biases, both explicit and implicit that are associated with African-American people that have been documented in terms of policing as well.
COOPER: David --
KLINGER: Because there is all sorts of evidence from research that I've conducted and other people have conducted that indicates that police officers are in fact not more likely to shoot in the field, a black individual with the exact same circumstances of a white individual wielding a gun. That's the evidence.
And if you look at the evidence from "The Washington Post" which comes back from 2015, which is the only decent count that we have of police officer involved shootings, white police -- excuse me -- white citizens are far more likely to be shot than black citizens in terms of disproportionally. Once you take into account differential violent crime involvement, the differentials in terms of white and black disappear.
KLINGER: So, there is an awful lot of information we need to look at rather than simply buying into an argument because there are problems that we have in society that means --
DYSON: But there is not buying into the argument. The point is that what you didn't cite in that study is that it suggests that black people are disproportionately stopped more, so that the discharge of the weapon after the fact may be one differential that we can accord, that we can acknowledge.
But the point is that there are far -- there's a far greater likelihood that African-American and Latino people will be stopped from the very beginning and therefore, as a result of that a higher likelihood that African American people will be involved in a fatal encounter with the police.
KLINGER: You're changing your argument, sir.
DYSON: That can't be deduced by statistical analyses and myopic statistics that don't pay attention to the lethal encounters of African-American people to what we see going on. You are trying to ask us, basically, do we believe our lying eyes?
[20:15:02] Or do we understand what's going on in the society?
With that kind of approach, we'll never begin to solve the problems we confront.
COOPER: I got to jump in here.
KLINGER: You shifted the argument, sir.
COOPER: Yes, I got to jump in here. We ought to take a quick break. I'm sorry.
Michael Eric Dyson, David Klinger, Darren Porcher, to be continued no doubt.
You're looking at live pictures there of protesters now starting to move up towards the uptown area in Charlotte. We're told that 150 people, we're told tonight, in part they are chanting release the video, as well as other things.
We're going to hear an attorney for the Scott family coming up at the top of the hour.
Up next, more from Charlotte.
COOPER: Well, crowds are gathering, as we just showed you in Charlotte, North Carolina, tonight, a third night of protests following the fatal shooting of Keith Lamont Scott. Tonight, protesters are being joined by hundreds of national guard troops after violence over the last two nights. The Scott family has seen the video of the shooting. They say they now have more questions than answers. We'll hear from an attorney for the family next hour. Brian Todd is in Charlotte where protests are, as we said are marching and chanting. He joins us now.
Brian, explain where you are and what the scene is.
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, at the corner of Trade Street and Tryon Street in the uptown area of Charlotte where a lot of the violence happened last night.
[20:20:01] A difference scene so far tonight. It's a very spirited crowd of at least 200 people I'd say, but they just got joined by a crowd that came up Trade Street from down there. It's say about 50 people.
Just got a lot bigger. They are chanting. They're doing a lot of anti-police chants here. They have blocked the intersection of Tryon and Trade Street.
Mark, why don't you just take a shot of them? They're jumping up and down now.
A momentum ago, Anderson, they were chanting "release the video." There's a lot of anti-police sentiment here, and a big reason for that is they simply do not trust the police's explanation of how Keith Lamont Scott was killed. They want that video released. They were chanting that as marched a short time ago from a local park.
We've been walking with them about a half mile to three quarters of a mile from that park to this intersection. And they are just blocking the entire intersection right now and chanting.
COOPER: And, Brian, in terms of police presence, National Guard presence, what have you seen?
TODD: We have seen police lining the streets. But, Anderson, I have to tell you, right now, at least so far from what I've seen tonight, the police presence is not as heavy as we anticipated. They may with kind of laying back a little bit, doing some staging and just waiting to see how this plays out.
We have seen some National Guard on the corners and we have seen sporadic lines of police, but not the large phalanxes of police that you saw last night, Anderson. So, we will see how this plays out, and we'll see where these protesters go and if the tension gets any worse than this.
Right now, it's a spirited crowd. It's got a little bit of anger but it's been very, very peaceful so far.
COOPER: And is there a sense, Brian, of, you know, often times in a protest there are people directing the protest, have an idea where it is going to go or kind of monitoring. Is that the level of kind of centralized organization? Or is it more done over social media and people are just kind of joining and figuring out where to go?
TODD: Well, I think a little of both, Anderson. There's been a couple of people who I identified as organizers of this march. A young lady directing them where to go and she was the one who actually directed them to stop in this intersection.
When I asked where they were going. She didn't want to tell me. She said, "Follow us and you'll see where we're going." Maybe she didn't know, maybe she did. But it's -- I would say it's lightly organized at this point.
COOPER: It's also -- it seems like some protesters have -- I don't know if it's full on gas mask, but apparatus to put over their mouth, I guess, if there is gas.
TODD: Yes. There are several of them. They have bandanas, they have masks. You know, I think they are just ready for anything.
They saw how bad this got last night. Many of them were probably out here. And they are just -- you know, they are ready and the police seem to be ready too. But again, I have not seen a massive police presence.
I get the sense, Anderson, that the police are just kind of hanging back a little bit.
COOPER: Yes, often times in a situation like this, police want to hang back, don't want to have not such a big visual presence because they don't want to kind of accelerate things or make things any worse with confrontations. They will wait and see where things are going, which I think we saw some of that last night, Brian.
It certainly seemed last night that there were small numbers of police initially at least, and then larger groups of police arriving as the violence got worse.
TODD: Yes, that's right. We did see that last night, Anderson.
My producer Craig Clary (ph) just told me I cannot see this, and then told me, what, Craig, a bus load of police just arrived?
OK. My producer said he saw a bus load of police arrive a few yards down the street from us. And again that's not unusual in a situation like this. It doesn't signify anything menacing at this point. They are laying back and they're just getting ready to see what this crowd does.
COOPER: Yes, have you seen businesses? Are they boarded up? Given what happened over the last two nights?
TODD: We have seen businesses boarded up. And we have seen. You know, it is interesting the mayor, Jennifer Roberts, said earlier today that this town is open for business and it's going to be business as usual.
Well, we also heard just before that Bank of America and Wells Fargo and other major companies told their employee, their nonessentials, to stay home. So, it's not quite open for business and this town seemed a little more sparsely populated than it is on a normal day.
And I'll tell you another thing, that we did a couple of live shots earlier at the Hyatt House Hotel down the street from here. That hotel suffered a lot of window damage last night and two of its employees were assaulted.
What we saw down there a short time ago was, they were removing some of the windows that were not damaged and putting plywood in their place. So, they were really, you know, just gearing up in anticipation of this night.
Other businesses were not doing that, but, you know, that business that really got hit hard last night.
[20:25:03] So, you have kind of a combination of things. There is a lot of tension and there is a lot of anxiety here tonight. So far, this is the extent to what we're seeing as far as the real passion and energy in the streets.
COOPER: Brian, I'm not sure if you are been able to see this or not. The National Guard troops are on the streets. Because I remember in, I believe it was in Ferguson, when the National Guard troops are brought in they were really kept sort of in staging areas to kind of help with the logistics. They weren't necessarily patrolling on the streets.
But Boris Sanchez was saying he had seen some I think on street corners. Have you -- are they actually armed?
TODD: We did see some National Guardsmen who are armed. We saw others who were not armed or very lightly armed.
I personally saw one national guardsman with a rifle. So, you know, again, they are -- I did not see a huge presence of them. They are on the odd corner. But they're not on every corner downtown.
And as far as how heavily they are armed, it seems to vary, Anderson.
COOPER: And --
TODD: The crowd is now on the move. We are going down Trade Street past Tryon Street.
Getting my bearings, I believe we're headed east, because I don't know where exactly this crowd is going.
COOPER: We were just showing with our viewers, we're showing your camera on the left-hand side of the screen. On the right-hand side in your screen, it's a different vantage point, a different camera, though, near where you are, several lines of police officers in riot gear, just standing by, waiting, some folks taking pictures of them. But again, that is a separate area nearby to where you are.
Boris Sanchez, I want to go to you. You're where the police officers are. What is the scene there? Because you're not too far from where Brian is. SANCHEZ: We are literally a couple hundred feet away from where Brian
is. There is a large, large contingent of police in front of me decked out in riot gear. There are people here as you said taking pictures of them and yelling things at them.
I want you to turn around and take a quick look behind us because this is the crowd Brian was just talking about. There is a large circle of people that blocked traffic in the middle of the street. This is down the street from the Omni Hotel.
They were chanting slogans. There were people with blow horns that were yelling out into the crowd and they are again mostly peaceful. They are starting to move away from the Omni Hotel in a different direction than we were yesterday in downtown.
So far, police have been really done much. They've been non- responsive. They're just standing and watching.
Right now, they are chanting "can't stop the revolution." And as you can tell it is a mixed crowd. There's quite a few people.
I would say that right now, there are a couple hundred people. I can't say it is more than 200, but definitely more than a hundred.
I'm going swing back over to the police, who are not moving. But some people in the crowd are now walking towards the police and confronting them. So things could get dicey shortly if things get out of hand and agitators start throwing things like they did yesterday.
So far, though, things are mostly peaceful. There is a buffer space between police and the protesters.
Just down the street from us, I heard you ask my colleague Brian Todd earlier, if we saw national guard. There's actually very heavily armed National Guard right outside the Omni Hotel with large armed vehicle. So, they are not far from this area. Clearly ready to move at a moments notice.
And again, we're just -- go ahead, Anderson.
COOPER: Yes. Boris, as -- I mean, one of the difficult things I imagine for police officers is if protest just is kind of fluid and there is not, you know, a preordained path or route they are going to take, the question is, are officers kind of following along? As we sometimes see in various protests, we saw that in New York City, I remember when protesters took other the west side highway. Police were following along trying not to intervene but just sort of, you know, keeping abreast with protesters.
Is that the scene here? Or are they allowing people to just walk where they will and try to pre-assemble people at various junctures.
SANCHEZ: This is very, very disorganized, Anderson. In this case, it was the protesters who have approached the police. The police have just been standing kind of corner of this building. They have not made any kind of formation or started mobilizing. It was mostly protesters that were trying to walk on the street. Many of them are still walking down the street, but many of them came up here to this line where we see several people now trying to get people -- trying to get protesters to back up.
It sounds like they are yelling, release the tapes. Yes. So, right now, it doesn't look ice are responding to them, but it is a precarious situation. I'm not sure if you can see it on camera.
COOPER: Boris, I got to interrupt for a second.
[20:30:02] Brian, what's the situation where you are?
TODD: Well, we've -- Anderson, we've got a crowd of people confronting riot police, but they're just really getting in their face and yelling and pointing at them. My (inaudible) can't come up here and we're behind -- a line of people doing that, so I just pointing it over here.
You can maybe see the tops of the riot police helmets right here or maybe you can't. It's a -- it's quite the scrum around here.
TODD: But they are really just pointing at them, yelling at them. There are a couple of community activists who are kind of getting between them and the police just to kind of make sure that things maybe don't get out of hand. But you can now see a little bit of anger boiling over here.
COOPER: Yeah. Actually I want to go back to Boris Sanchez, because he actually I think is the vanish point on the scene on the same scene just from the other side. Slightly better.
Boris, we did see last night a number of people sort of standing between police and some of the more violent protesters or people sort of trying to get a confrontation with police, trying to keep the two sides apart. We're seeing that again here now, I see somebody looks like a pastor and some others who are clearly trying to keep the two apart.
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right Anderson. Actually one them -- we just got word from police, they sort of speaking over a loud speaker, they're declaring us an unlawful assembly. S they are forcing people out and saying that, you know, they'll get them out here with the use of force.
As you mentioned there are have been repeatedly people have got to in between the police and protesters trying to keep the situation calm. Trying to keep the protesters peaceful. One of them to so remain, his a public defender. His actually right there right now in between protesters and police.
He was speaking to me yesterday and he was here with tear gas several times, but he kept going back trying to keep people from getting arrested. He told me that he's doing this because there are no leaders in this community that are stepping up for those that feel that the justice system doesn't represent them. So he's trying to make sure that the voice that's coming from the community is one of, you know, emotion, but certainly one of peace and one that doesn't -- one second. And it's a voice that certainly doesn't miss the message that they're trying to get across and damp that message with violence.
COOPER: And ...
SANCHEZ: But we're still hearing that mega phone. They're basically telling people to leave right now. Some people have left but the crowd in front of the police is still sizable Anderson.
COOPER: Yeah and Boris, on the left-hand side we're showing your camera. On the right-hand side of our screen we're showing a helicopter shot of a fair number of people. Is that the group that was in the intersection before and has moved on? Do you know Boris? I know your static in your spot ...
COOPER: ... so you may not be able to tell. But it looks like well over a hundred I would think people is unclear to me where they are going.
SANCHEZ: Yeah. I would say that most of the people that were in the middle of the intersection in that circle have moved on. I can't tell you precisely where they have moved on but they've gone down Tryon Street and they are further down. They don't -- I mean it doesn't compare to the crowd.
The circle doesn't compare to the -- or rather. The crowd in front of the police doesn't compare to the number of people that were in that circle. That was, you know, well over a hundred people. Maybe at 200. Here I would say there's 60, maybe 70 people and a lot of media obviously standing in the way as well. So, it is a big crowd but it is not nearly the size we saw before. I'm not sure where those other folks went. They may have just dispersed after getting that message from police.
COOPER: Well we're certainly seeing ...
SANCHEZ: I'm going to try to track them down.
COOPER: We're certainly seeing them I think on the right-hand side of your screen on helicopter screen side. I think they -- just gone a couple blocks from where they were.
We're going to take a short break. Boris Sanchez, Brian Todd. Be careful out there. We're going to check back with both throughout the evening.
Coming up another city grappling with state of police shooting, we'll have the latest from Tulsa, where an officer has been with man slaughter.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [20:37:57] COOPER: Well, covering the breaking news from Charlotte tonight. A third night of protest under way. So far we haven't seen the violence of the last two nights. Let's check in with Boris Sanchez.
And Boris, we're showing that helicopter shot the large groups of people moving down the street. Where are you now and what do you see?
But then we have Boris yet, I want to bring in retired NYPD Lieutenant Darrin Porcher who is watching this along with us. Darrin, this is got to be I mean for police an extremely, because it is such a fluid protest and at this point peaceful thankfully. It still going to be a big challenge for police just try to figure out where they are going and how to respond to that.
DARRIN PORCHER, RETIRED NYPD LIEUTENANT: Absolutely, but the keys at deployment of personnel. When we look back at what happened in Baltimore in connection with Freddie Gray case, that was a teachable moment of the law enforcement on a national level.
So one of the things that we have to take into consideration, is how will law enforcement deploy the resources. The first thing, the National Guard, if you notice on television you don't see any the National Guard troops. The National Guard troops are deep being positioned in the commercial areas. High real estate areas so to speak to prevent things like looting which occurred in Baltimore.
When you think -- the state police. The state police are now being held what we referred to as reserved, and that reserve is going to be called upon if necessary by the local PD. The insetting commander in this particular case is going to be the chief of police for Charlotte Police Department. That chief of police is the shot caller so to speak. He is going to direct and deploy resources accordingly. He's already been given that position by the governor.
Now when we look at how this band in moving around so to speak, the Charlotte Police Department has a list of agitators. A lot of these agitators are people that come from out of town the quote/unquote, "stir up the pot." So if we have an issue with one of these agitators, it will be the local police department, the Charlotte Police Department that would assess and extract those individuals as deemed necessary.
[20:40:01] But once again, as you mention Anderson. We do have a fluid situation. But however, when we look at the totality in personnel we have an overwhelmingly larger number of police and law enforcement officials as oppose to the hundred plus people that we have as these demonstrators.
COOPER: And Lieutenant -- Lieutenant Porcher when, you know, we have seen increasingly, we saw last night again that technique of, you know, there's police lines and then a small group of police 3 or 4 will quickly run out, grab somebody who they believe is, you know, an agitator or causing trouble. And bring that person through the lines again and arrest that person. Is that effective tactic? PORCHER: It's very effective. Because, the leaders in many of these instances of the agitators. So when you move this quote/unquote "rebel rousers". The rest of crowd is not going to be is at to join in.
A lot of the people that come that participating this protest are law- abiding citizens that are exercising their constitutional afforded (ph) rights. So these, the small component of what we referred to as agitators of the people that the local PD as a referred to as the Charlotte PD, those are the individuals that these agitators, that's who we got to focus on, because the majority of these people that come to protest are good people.
COOPER: Now, Boris Sanchez is there. Now, Boris we're lacking at your camera. Based on a small group of police seem to have a formed a circle or square and are just kind of standing by. Are there a lot of people around that?
SANCHEZ: They are standing by. They are standing by. So -- the biggest part of the crowd has actually moved down the street to a local park. But this is where the encounter with police and protesters was most heated. They actually moved from the corner of the building into this area. Partly I think because, it was getting kind of dangerous. There were people on all sides of police and they were cornered now. They're moving out.
There are still protesters behind me and across the streets as well. We don't know exactly where they are headed. This is I believe south of where the park is. The park is directly to our east. So I don't know whether they're circling the block or just doing this to get out of the way for now.
But again, so far a very heated argument, nothing violent yet. There were calls for the crowds to be dispersed. From loud speakers from police. Some of the crowd did disperse but what from I understand, of that big circle of people that was blocking the intersection for quite some time has moved down to a park a short distance from us. I'm not sure if that is where we are heading now. I'm going try to find out Anderson.
COOPER: All right. And Lieutenant Porcher is still with us. You know, Darrin, in a case like this you have a lot of people yelling things at police, engaging with the police officer, or trying to engage with them. Is it -- or is that part of the training for the police to just not respond? Or do they want police talking to people? Or how to do they handle that?
PORCHER: Well, each case is different. As I mentioned earlier, what happened in Baltimore with connection with the Freddie Gray case, that was a teachable moment for law enforcement on a national level. We don't want -- we don't want the protesters to begin destroying property.
Therefore the incident commander here, which is the chief of police of the Charlotte Police Department, is he has guidelines -- I shouldn't say guidelines. But has he has a focus and that's based upon, that's going to be predicated on the actions of these protesters. But primarily the goal is to preserve human life and property. Because if we let the people just continue to riot, the thing will just go out -- it will spiral out of control.
So we want to snip this in the bud as quick as possible and that's what I see this happening here today, it seems to be an effective strategy because we don't have the public disobedience that we had over the last two days.
COOPER: It's a dangerous situation for police, I mean ...
COOPER: ... what we know last night, that one of the -- the people at the protest was shot not by police by somebody ...
PORCHER: By another protester.
COOPER: ... else in the crowd. So yeah at least person in that case seem to have a gun.
PORCHER: Right, in addition to that, we've have correspondents that have been injured by protesters as well. So it's a very dangerous, active and fluid situation. Therefore it's incumbent that -- it's incumbent upon the police that they practice quintessential law enforcement tactics to preserve life and property of all parties involved.
COOPER: I think we also have David Klinger standing by. Former LAPD officer and also criminologist. David, just as we're seeing it tonight, I mean obviously to wasn't really until -- or frankly about this time last night that we started to see some violence. That was the incident outside of the Omni Hotel.
So far tonight, thankfully, it seems to be must have more controlled, more orderly. It looks like from the override shot I'm seeing right now. It looks like maybe a hundred or more hard to estimate given the light, people, they were in an intersection now, it seems like they're moving on. But certainly an organized police presence.
[20:45:03] DAVID KLINGER, FORMER LAPD OFFICER: Yeah and I think it's important for people to understand that one of the things that may be going on is with the addition of the National Guard troops, what does is have free sudden more police assets. Typically the National Guard will serve in and base in the perimeter position take that role away from police officers, so then more police officers can be brought on line.
And so that might be part of why there is a bigger show of force that is having that effect of calming things. And as your other guest was talking about, if they are making targeted arrests. Riots are very emotional, and if leadership is taken away. Often times that does calm the emotion. And so if that's what's going on, on the ground in Charlotte, I would expect that there would be an outcome that would not be as violent as last night's situation. COOPER: So even though the initial, you know, grabbing the person, arresting the person may anger the people around, it has the effect -- I mean it is a proven tactic your saying that it has the effect of kind of dissipating protests.
KLINGER: That's all the evidence that I'm aware of, absolutely. And not just the leaders, but if someone is involved in some type of criminal activity and the squad leader or the sergeant or whoever they have got back in the line up says go get that guy, he committed a crime. Well then what happens is immediately the visual for everybody else who's there, is oh they are arresting people now who are committing crime, so we're not going to commit crimes.
So two ways that work as a positive in terms of taking people out of there. And certainly some members of the protest group are going to be upset but -- because the leadership is taken away and people who are committing crimes are taken away. That does tend to let the air out.
COOPER: You know, David in the riots I've been in over the years, my belief as a reporter was always if your camera is effecting the situation in any way, if people are some way behaving differently, because your pointing your camera to them, it's beholden on you as a journalist to not be pointing the camera to move away, so you're not ...
COOPER: ... kind of altering the situation. But now you have a situation where everybody has a camera and there's a lot of folks who want to document some sort of a confrontation. Not necessarily professionals but just people who are part of it. They want that, I mean that again adds another layer to this.
KLINGER: Absolutely. And talking to friends of mine who are still on the job, one of the things that they relate is that often times in typical traffic stop or response to a dispute, at a business or something, the cell phones come out. And the cell phone recording people are trying to egg on the citizens to try to create something so they can get a YouTube moment or maybe even egg on the police.
And so absolutely we have this reactive effect. And that is a challenge, that is a problem. This is something that is new. This is something that law enforcement doesn't really know how to manage in terms of what can we do to try to mute some of that? But remember, the police aren't in control of everything. If the police were in control of everything there wouldn't be a riot in the first place.
So the police need to figure out ways to leverage the assets they have, work with the their assets, work with assets in the community. You mentioned that there's one gentlemen who apparently is going around trying to calm people down. Trying to identify other people who are interested in playing that role. See if we can make it happen.
COOPER: We're going to take another short break. A lot more from Charlotte and the latest from Tulsa as well, coming up.
[20:52:00] COOPER: The third night of protest underway in Charlotte, North Carolina, after the fatal police shooting of Keith Lamont Scott. There is police video of the shooting, the family has seen it, the police chief says the public will not.
Joining me now, is two former federal prosecutors, CNN legal analyst Luara Coates, and senior legal analyst as well, Jeffrey Toobin.
Lauren, does it make sense to you that the police would not release the video? We talked to one former LAPD officer earlier, who said, essentially, you don't want to do anything that's going to taint any witnesses.
LAURA COATES, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I think that's pretty disingenuous disingenuous. One of the reasons they don't want to release is but they certainly they want to be able to ensure that they all their bases covered, to figure out if there was indeed a use of excessive force. But, also the (inaudible) of room Anderson, there is a law that set to go effect in North Carolina in a few days that would prevent the police from ever releasing footage without a court order.
So it may be an incidence of trying to buy their time in order to, one, put all their eggs ducks in a row, and, two they have that law take effect.
COOPER: Jeff, we've certainly seen cases where the video has told the whole story. I mean in this case, the family said they have now having seen the video, they have more questions than -- but I think back to the other case, where, you know, the police said one thing has happened, and the video came out, and it was shot by a bystander, it showed the, you know, the guy running away and the officer shooting him. And apparently, looking like planting some sort of evidence.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Right, that's Chicago. I mean, you know, Rahm Emmanuel almost lost his entire mayoral team because the Chicago Police did not release the video until after the election, when Rahm Emanuel was re-elected. You know, the idea behind not releasing the video is that witnesses will see the video and then change their testimony to line up with the video.
You know, that is sometimes the case, but there are countervailing reasons. It is not an iron clad rule that you never release a video. And I think here, where there was a -- there are a limited number of witnesses around this shooting, presumably, all of them have been spoken to already, and now there's a tremendous public interest in seeing what happened here and it might serve to calm the community, to let people see that it was perhaps an ambiguous situation. But I just think when the public interest is so strong to see a video, the police should release it.
COOPER: Lauren, we now also have in Tulsa situation where the police officer has been charged with manslaughter. Given what we know, does that seem reasonable to you. COATES: You know, it does. Think about what is the big contrast between what's happening in Charlotte versus what's happening in Tulsa. Remember Tulsa is this community that just a few months ago, they had a conviction of a volunteer deputy on a manslaughter charge for his use of a handgun as opposed to a taser. And manslaughter carries a penalty of at least four years. And the reason it's manslaughter versus homicide is because I think the prosecutor believes, is probably the community does, that this officer did not go out intending to commit a homicide.
[20:55:05] But, in fact, acted out of an unreasonable level of passion or an unreasonable level of fear that the other officers did not have, because they chose a taser. So I think in that incidence, it's probably appropriate. But it's really important to note that there's a contrast between the peaceful protests in Tulsa, because of the confidence you have in previously successful prosecutions of officers, versus Charlotte, where you have a recent case where you had a hung jury for the death of an unarmed black man by an officer.
TOOBIN: I mean, I think -- it's also true that Tulsa is just a lot more conservative community than Charlotte is. And it does -- I mean, it is a confident step on the part of the prosecutor to file these manslaughter charges so quickly. These cases are hard to make against police officers. You know, the question in this case is reasonableness. Did the officer behave reasonably?
Juries are sympathetic to officers when they say they were in fear for their lives. Here we have a situation where the victim, you know, was near a car and it will be an interesting question about whether the judge allows in evidence the fact that there was PCP, which is a drug that can make people erratic and violent inside the car. Now the officer had no way of knowing there was PCP in the car ...
TOOBIN: ... but if the jury hears that, that may help the officer a great deal.
COATES: But we also don't know whether it was in his system right Jeff. Se have a number of issues with that.
TOOBIN: That's right.
COATES: You know, but it's true that officers do get a lot of deference from both a jury pool and the greater community. But, remember, that in Tulsa, one officer pulled a taser, one officer shot and killed. And so you have that reasonable officer standard obliterating.
COOPER: Yeah. Laura Coates, is great to have you on. Jeff Toobin ...
COATES: Thank you.
COOPER: ... always as well. Much more ahead when we continue. We're following those protests out of Charlotte, the latest developments from Charlotte. Also we hear from an attorney for the family of Keith Lamont Scott about what they saw in that video and the way they interpret it.
[21:00:15] COOPER: Thanks for joining us for the second hour ...