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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Third Night of Protests Underway in Charlotte; National Guard Mobilized After Two Nights of Violence; Attorney: Scott Family Has Seen Video of Fatal Shooting; Man Shot During Last Night's Charlotte Protest Dies; Charlotte Mayor Signs Curfew Order Effective Midnight. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired September 22, 2016 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:15] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks for joining us for this second hour of 360. We begin tonight with breaking news from Charlotte, North Carolina. Protesters on the move, marching with so far as seem to be an entirely peaceful demonstration, a much different scene than of course at this time last night.
And short time ago, we learned a man who was shot during protests last night by another person in the crowd has died. He wasn't shot by police.
In a moment, I'll speak with someone who was there, saw the whole thing, tried to help the man after he was shot. That happened on the second night of protest after the fatal police shooting of Keith Lamont Scott.
Tonight, hundreds of National Guard troops are in Charlotte trying to prevent a third night of violence along with numerous police officers.
Brian Todd joins me again with the latest on the ground. So Brian, we have seen crowds of people now moving -- on the move. Where are you? What are you seeing?
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, we just -- we're with a crowd that is moving, I believe, north on South College Street here. As you can see behind me, they were -- by my count, blocked probably four intersections, at least. And they were doing some street chanting back here. It was interesting, a moment ago, there was kind of a blockage of this intersection by a couple of police cars.
As these protesters started to come towards the police cars, the police cars cleared the way for them to come through. So the police are willing to let these people march and to peacefully assemble.
We had saw a couple of angry confrontations between protesters and riot police earlier, but it did not get violent.
Now, if you see this, mark, this poor motorist is in the middle here and kind of caught. They're letting her go, but they're getting a little bit agitated. They just want her to get out of the way, basically. And she's moving out of the way so they want to keep moving.
COOPER: And Brian tonight's the first night the National Guard has been ordered in place. How is the balance between police and National Guard presence?
TODD: We've seen a heavier police presence, Anderson. We were just with a large line of riot police as they circled a few blocks. I know Boris was doing some reporting on that, as well. We were with them. And then the riot police all went into the Marriott City Center Hotel to basically take a breather. Now, it was that group of police, but there are other police out here.
To answer your question, the police seem to outnumber the National Guardsmen. We only see a few National Guardsmen on an odd corner of the city. Not on every corner. So the National Guard presence right now, at least, visibly, is not that strong. The police are much - have a much heavier presence here.
As you can see the crowd behind me, chanting, we've seen a whole lot of kind of different variations of protesters. And been very interesting, Anderson, we've seen street debates between people, street chants, singing, we saw, again, we saw some angry but peaceful confrontations between protesters and riot police where they kind of stared each other down and the protesters yelled and pointed at them but so far, Anderson, very, very peaceful, very spirited here tonight.
COOPER: Brian Todd, we're going to check back with you shortly, as we've been reporting, the family of Keith Lamont Scott has seen the police video of him being shot and killed.
Joining me now, an attorney for the family, Justin Bamberg. Justin, thanks very much for being with us. I know the family watched the video today at the Charlotte police headquarters. You saw them as well. What was their reaction to seeing them?
JUSTIN BAMBERG, ATTORNEY FOR SCOTT FAMILY: Quite frankly, it was very painful. You know, not just to see him shot and killed, but to see the reactions on the rest of the family members' face. I do want to point out that this was actually the second time his wife has seen the shooting, because she was out there the day that her husband was shot and killed.
COOPER: Did she actually witness the shooting, the initial shooting? Or did she see the aftermath?
BAMBERG: No, she witnessed the initial shooting, Anderson.
COOPER: So the Charlotte police chief said that after he reviewed the video of the shooting, that it did not give him and I quote absolute definitive visual evidence that will confirm a person was pointing a gun. Does that square with what you saw in the video with what the family says they saw?
BAMBERG: What I saw in the video is that he did not point a gun. There's no question about that, at least based on the two videos that we witnessed today.
COOPER: Do you see a gun in any of the videos?
BAMBERG: No, absolutely not. What you see, Anderson, is you see officers yelling commands, you see Mr. Scott step out of the vehicle. His hands are down by his side. He is acting calm. He's acting in a very non aggressive manner. He looks to be confused, to be quite honest. You do see something in his hand, but it's impossible to make out from the video what it is. I do know that at the moment that he was shot, he actually appeared to be stepping backwards.
COOPER: Did he own a gun? Did he have a gun? I mean it is an open carry state, so did he have a gun on him?
[21:05:05] BAMBERG: No, it's my understanding and based on talking in with the family that he did not have a gun. That he didn't own one and he did not habitually carry one with him. So to use the lingo that was asked of me earlier today.
COOPER: So after seeing the videos, is the family still standing by the fact that Keith Lamont Scott point blank did not have a gun in the car and only had a book?
BAMBER: The family, of course, their position and their understanding is that he did not have a gun. But here's the thing, Anderson. We have law enforcement saying that they recovered a gun from the scene. There are multiple witnesses that say that he didn't have a gun. At the end of the day, we don't create the facts. That is just about getting down to the bottom of what happened and why it happened. So we look forward to the rest of the investigation fanning out.
And quite frankly, I think that in the family's position is that these videos that we watched today by the camera footage as well as a dash cam capturing the shooting should be made available to the public. Allow people to see it and allow people to draw some of their own conclusions based on what they see with their own eyes.
COOPER: And that's certainly something we've heard from protesters tonight, who are chanting about, in part of releasing videos. I talked to one law enforcement personnel, formerly with the LAPD and a criminologist who said, one argument against releasing a video like this, at least at this stage, is you don't want to influence any potential witnesses who are out there, who might see the video and, you know, be affected by it, in terms of what they actually believe they saw or say they saw. What do you make of that argument?
BAMBERG: I understand that position, but quite frankly, Anderson, this is 2016. By the time something happens, any potential influence over potential witnesses is going to happen via social media, via things like Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. I think that when we look around, what's happening in Charlotte, and the reason you hear helicopters flying above head is because people want answers. This family deserves answers.
Again, we don't create the facts, we live with the cards that we're dealt. But we can't be in the game unless we're given the cards. So I understand his position, but quite frankly, I think the videos do need to be released. I do want to say and the family does appreciate having had the opportunity to review them first, but at this point, the video should be made public.
COOPER: Justin Bamberg, I appreciate your time. Thank you so much. I want to check in with ...
BAMBERG: Thank you so much.
COOPER: ... Boris Sanchez, who is with the protesters. Boris, where are you and who are you with?
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Anderson. We're actually here with Toussaint Romain, he's that public defender that I was telling you about earlier, who was standing in between police and protesters last night, in the face of tear and people pushing and shoving. You're back here tonight. What brought you back?
TOUSSAINT ROMAIN, CHARLOTTE PUBLIC DEFENDER: Same thing man, just doing my part. We all have a nine to five, we all have a purpose, we all calling, I'm just fulfilling mine. That's why I'm here tonight.
SANCHEZ: When you see how last night unfolded and how many people got into trouble, how much property was destroyed, how does it compare to what's going on right now? It looks relatively peaceful?
ROMAIN: You know when I went home last night, I kissed my kids and told them I loved them, because I didn't know if I would make it home last night. But I have hope that we're going to make it better. Tomorrow is going to be a better day.
This protest right now was much better. The clergy is here. Adults are here. Black and white, there's been not one incident of violence so far. Yeah, the National Guard is here, but they're nowhere around this at the moment. State highway patrol, they're here. State of emergency, we've been declared in. Look how peaceful it is.
This is what happens when leader show up. And this is what happens when we come together, as a nation, because again, Boris, you have to realize, we're in this together. And I have to come back every day. And I'll come back every day. And I'll come back each day after this until we make sure that we make it better for my kids, if you have kids, for yours, and this for our nation.
We have to get better. And I have every hope and every reason to believe we will.
SANCHEZ: Now there were a lot of questions about this video. Do you feel like this crowd would be perhaps less agitated, perhaps less aggressive if that video was released? The police say that it would hinder the investigation. From your perspective, how would the protesters feel about that aspect of this, if the tape was released? Would this stop?
ROMAIN: You know, Boris, I was out here last year, August 15th, with protesters after the Jonathan Pharrell case. All right, I was out here keeping the peace just like I am today. This is not just something we showed up to do. What happened in that last case was simply this, the police acted immediately. They had full disclosure. They fired them, they proceed with an indictment, they may have had it done a second time, but then they let the criminal justice process run its course. He actually went to trial, the verdict was what it was. But the process went.
[21:10:00] And I think if we allow the process to work the way it's supposed to, people aren't unhappy. It's when we don't indict. It's when we do cover up. And the police have a history of doing this type of thing, especially with lives like this that we're talking about.
So in all candor, disclosing the video would only allow more peace to be brought to this process because a year ago, or actually two years ago, when the actual shooting happened of Jonathan Pharrell, the police acted. The criminal justice system acted, and you didn't see any of this.
SANCHEZ: Toussaint, you're a public defender, you're obviously a community leader. I've seen people come up to you and thank you for what you did last night. Do you think it' going to turn out the same, do you think we're going to see that violent contingent of protesters erupt again?
ROMAIN: Well, man, I'm no hero, I'm no leader. So that part, I'll disagree with you. And I guess I disagree with the other side, too. We're out here doing it peacefully, man. So I mean right now you have a lot of the adults and leaders and clergy and these folks in general who are out here and they're doing it peacefully, they're holding hands, they're chanting, they're exercising their Constitutional Rights, they're saying and saying and screaming and screaming and they're basically allowed what they're allowed to do.
I'm surprised more of America isn't outraged by them doing it the right way. It's kind of a weird way of saying that. But they are doing it the right way. When we don't stand for our flag there's a lot of issues and Colin Kaepernick shout-out to you.
But for the most part, right now, these folks are doing it in a way that's proper, there is no violence. Will it be violence later on? I don't know. But I'll stay and find out. And like you, hopefully we'll keep the peace like the other adults who are here and the folks wanting to do the right thing, we'll do the right thing. We have to, because we have tomorrow, we have the day after that and we got to end up doing it the right way.
SANCHEZ: Toussaint, I have to respectfully disagree with you, the way people were approaching you last night, you certainly are a leader in this community. Thank you so much for speaking to us, we appreciate it. Anderson, we'll keep following this crowd right now. We'll send it back to you.
COOPER: Should also point, Boris, and our thanks to Toussaint Romain, public defenders are underfunded, overworked and underappreciated in this country. And for him to work all day and then come out at night to try to keep the peace in the protest like that is an extraordinary gesture. So please thank him.
With me again is Georgetown University's sociology professor Michael Eric Dyson, former LAPD officer David Klinger, and retired NYPD lieutenant, Darren Porcher.
Professor Dyson, I mean I just, you know, when you see that public defender out there, keeping the peace between protesters and police, you know, that's awesome citizenship.
MICHAEL ERIC DYSON, GEORGETOWN UNIVERISTY SOCIOLOGY PROFESSOR: It's heartwarming. And it's the best of our masculinity as black men, it's the best of our humanity as black people, it's the best of our nation as citizens. And see this is what angers so many African-American and Latino people and poor people is that there are so many more of him than there are people that would instigate or start trouble and yet their humanity is not respected.
That young man that we are celebrating, that young man upon whom the camera streamed, that young man who exhibits such profound humanity is like so many millions more of us out there, and yet at any moment, they may be subject to arbitrary will of a police person, who with one blow, with one shot, with one bullet, can end a life. And this is why it's so necessary for us to talk about this.
Now, we can train our cameras on the people who are out there now whether they are violent or not. The reality is, they are reacting to years of congestion, years of inability to be heard. Martin Luther King Jr. said that a riot is the language of the unheard. And these uprisings and rebellions and protests and people coming together peacefully are the manifestation of a long-simmering outrage at the inability to get America to treat us with fundamental respect and decency.
So what that young man exhibits is what so many millions more have and they want that to be respected from the get-go.
COOPER: And former NYPD lieutenant, Darren Porcher. Darren, just in terms of what you have seen tonight, up to this point because I think at this point last night, we had already seen about 20 minutes, at least, of tear gas and violence. I think, at this point last night, someone had been shot, was in critical condition. Unclear the details at that point last night. But now we know that person has died shot by somebody else in the crowd.
What do you see of what you're seeing tonight? And how important, Darren, do you think the release of a video might be just in -- not only in the investigation or damaging to the investigation, but how important to bringing a calm?
DARREN PORCHER, FORMER NYPD LIEUTENANT: OK, well at two components. The first peace, in terms of what I'm witnessing, I see a masterful utilization of resources from the perspective of the police department.
What that police department did was they connected with a lot of the major stakeholders in these communities, and the community leaders. And they utilized them as buffers, and we saw that in the earlier part of the video where we saw a lot of the community leaders forming human chains, so to speak, between the police and the protesters.
[21:15:06] I thought that was a masterful way of utilizing those resources in the community.
COOPER: Hey, Darren, let me jump in here. I want to go to our Brian Todd. Brian, what's this scene where you are because this is the first time we're actually seeing I think National Guard troops.
TODD: Anderson, we have just seen them come up the steps of, I believe, a government building here. I'm told that this is one of the jails -- it's one of the jail buildings. And they're confronting national guardsmen who are standing by the door. You know, this was a very, very spur of the moment decision. They were marching down the street and they just kind of rushed up here to confront these national guardsmen.
But, again, there are community activists here. You can see this trying to steer them back down the stairs and back down the street. And that is where they're now going. They are kind of peeling back and coming back down the stairs. But it looked to be a, you know, a pretty heated moment there for a minute, when they were rushing up the stairs here and confronting the national guardsmen.
But now they are peeling back, they are going back down the stairs and proceeding. And this was really at the urging of a couple of community activists. This is the interesting part of this dynamic. There were a couple of activists here who really got between and the national guardsmen and told them, you know, just get away from here, you know, I'm not sure exactly what they said to them to convince them to do it, but they were very effective in getting these protesters to come back down the stairs here a go back up the street. And we're walking with them back up the street now.
COOPER: We'll continue to check in with you. And Darren, I'm sorry for interrupting. You know, it's one of those situations, when you look at those National Guard folks, it looks like at least those men there do not have riot shields. They are standing, basically in front of that building to permit, I think it was a David Klinger pointing out that because of the National Guard, it frees up police resources to be in more forward positions. And yet, it's a dangerous position for National Guard troops because wherever they are, they can be confronted, as we just saw.
PORCHER: Right, well the National Guard troops are at somewhat of a disadvantage. A soldier is not a police officer. So we have two separate and distinct missions. The National Guard troops are primarily there for hardening more so than anything else. And the jail is the last place that people are going to be able to break into.
But Anderson, you asked me a question in connection with the video earlier. And I just wanted to answer that.
COOPER: Carry on. PORCHER: In connection with that video, I think it's of optimum importance and it's essential that that video is released because where this incident happened it was not a constitutionally protected place. It happened in a public lot of a housing development. Therefore, people had access or a line of vision to see what did occur. When we think about the average individuals in a place like New York City, for example, we're videoed roughly 100 to 200 times a day. So we as the public don't have an expectation of privacy when we're walking in the street.
So when we take into consideration a parking lot and this encounter, it's something that the public had a line of sight to, therefore, by all means, the police department needs to introduce that video to the public, because it's the fear of the unknown with this public that is being riled up about.
And just taking consideration with the attorney's statement. The attorney states that he never saw a gun. We have officers that stated that they did see a gun. Now we have a public that has to pick a side, as to what they believe and what they don't believe. And not to say that the video would be completely inclusive but it would quell a lot of anger and hostility in this community.
COOPER: And yet, David, I think it was you earlier on who pointed out the flip side of that which is protecting the investigation.
DAVID KLINGER, CRIMINOLOGIST: Absolutely. The integrity of the investigation is vital. And my argument is not that the video shouldn't be released, it's simply a question of timing. I want to make sure that every relevant witness has been interviewed. And if they need to go -- if the detectives need to go back and ask additional questions, all that follow up is done, and then go ahead and release the video.
So it may be a difference of today versus two or three days from now, whatever the case might be. I'm in no way, shape, or form asserting that videos should be withheld. It's just a question of when.
PORCHER: Anderson, you know it's interesting. Whenever we have a police issue, whereas we have a person that's arrested, the police immediately release the identification of that individual and their criminal background. When we have a victim of a crime, we all introduce the identity, with the exception of the victim of a sexual assault or a child. The police are very transparent when it comes to releasing that type of information.
However, they become very elusive when it involves an internal situation. And the public has a right to know this information. I worked in the internal affairs bureau. I investigated these police shootings quite frequently and I genuinely understand what these people's cries for of element of transparency is.
[21:00:07] Therefore, just get it out. It's eventually going to happen. I respect with the other gentlemen mentioning connection with the investigation. But once again, this is not a constitutionally protected place. The public had a clear line of sight. And let's look at what happened in Tulsa, Oklahoma, for example. Instantaneously, that police department released that video and we had no community unrest.
PORCHER: Look at the other side of it. The video wasn't released and now there's an outrage in Charlotte, North Carolina.
KLINGER: Well, Darren, there's another piece that ...
COOPER: Sorry, guys, let me just jump in here. I want to explain to our viewers what we're seeing. This is actually now -- this is live images, same location, but a different -- both cameras are at the same location of advantage point on it but this a different government building I'm told, that's being protected now by National Guard troops.
And you see a larger crowd of people who have gone up to at least stand in front of them. Perhaps confront them, unclear, we're not seeing a lot of back and forth here. But Brian Todd is standing by. Brian, do you know where -- what building that is and what's going on?
TODD: I'm told, Anderson, this is the police station. Yes, it is, I can actually see the sign now. They've come up to the police station, the police headquarters here in Charlotte, and they've chanted, "We want the tapes."
They chanted this earlier tonight, "Release the video." And now they're confronting National Guardsmen and police standing in front of the police station. And they're having conversation with a couple of them here.
But they were chanting very loudly, "We want the tapes" again. This whole dynamic with these two police videos, at least two that we know of, the body cam video and the dash cam video, has really fueled the dynamic with this crowd.
I don't know if my photojournalist, Mark, can pan to his right and show the crowd below me here. Mark is kind of focused there on the confrontation.
But, you know, the crowds, again, have been very, very focused on the release of those tapes. They're angry about the tapes not being released. They do not trust the police version of things. And they've just chanted again, "We want the tapes." I'm -- they're speaking over here. Hold on.
UNIDENTIFED MALE: ... movement last night.
UNIDENTIFED FEMALE: Just be calm.
UNIDENTIFED MALE: Somebody knows a lot (ph). UNIDENTIFED FEMALE: Just be calm.
UNIDENTIFED MALE: Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey.
UNIDENTIFED MALE: Stay where you are.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's pay respect to the dead. Give a moment of silence for the folks that have lost their lives in this movement. And everybody is going staying here today let's pay our respects. Let's pay our respect. We want the tape.
UNIDENTIFED MALE: The brother who lost their lives ...
UNIDENTIFED MALE: Respect.
UNIDENTIFED MALE: ... where are they next?
COOPER: It's the crowd, they're talking about this person who was killed in the crowd last night, killed not by police, but by another person in that crowd. We learn tonight that that person lost their life.
We're going to take a short break. We're going to continue to check in, with our correspondents. We're out in the crowds tonight. I'll speak also to an eyewitness to what turned out to be a fatal shooting of a protester last night, a witness who tried to help the victim. We'll be right back.
[21:26:17] COOPER: Welcome back. Protests going on right now in Charlotte. We've just gotten word that the mayor has signed an order for a curfew it that takes effect at midnight, lasting until 6:00 a.m. As I mentioned, a man who was shot during last night's protests in Charlotte has died. We're going to show you some video of the aftermath. That shooting disturbing, but we've blurred it heavily.
The man on the left side of the screen, in the purple shirt, tried to help the shooting victim. Sadly, that victim, 26-year-old Justin Karr, has now died. The stranger who tried to help him is Sammy Sherril. He joins me now.
Sammy thanks so much for being with us and for what you tried to do last night. You just gotten out of the hospital I understand after suffering an asthma attack, when in front of the hotel during the altercation, a man was shot. Can you walk me through what happened?
SAMMY SHERRIL, HELPED SHOOTING VICTIM DURING PROTEST: I am going to talk about remembering once I left the hospital, I went to Buffalo Wild where I got swings, and the police directed everybody to stop walking up Trinity Street with the protesters.
So, as they started shuffling up, getting everyone boxed in, we walked up to the Omni Hotel. They had a barricade to the valet parking room. So as you see come people running, you heard a gunshot. I was behind him. I didn't see anybody shoot honestly who hit him.
And as I looked up, he was just laying on the ground. No one helped him. The police just looked at him. So I just try to get on top go and help him out. Yelled for help, I picked him up, took him to the hotel valet parking lot. And there's when they barricade us in. And that's when they snatched me up with Justin. And they let a tear gas on my two or three of them and they dragged Justin on and he left me in there.
So, some protest found me crawling having an asthma attack and as, you know, I woke up in the hospital.
COOPER: And the man who was shot, was he conscious at the time?
SHERRIL: Yes, sir, like, once I got on top of him, he was breathing, he was conscious. The police is not moving. They didn't do no help. They just looked, the crowd just looked, and I think it should have been more to the police to help us out there.
COOPER: So you ended up back in the hospital with an asthma attack?
SHERRIL: Yes, sir, I had a severe asthma attack. Now I've got to walk around with an inhaler. I used to just walk around but -- I guess the tear gas got to me too much.
COOPER: Why -- the man who was shot last night indeed has passed away. And I don't know if you had heard that. Yet you still came back out tonight. Why would you want to be out there tonight again?
SHERRIL: I'm here at anytime, we've got to take a stand, man. Like we got to stand for something or would die for nothing. So, if more people start to record and get down and get your hands dirty, help somebody out. If you see a man in help, help him out. Don't just walk off and run off in a corner and talk about it.
COOPER: Sammy, I appreciate you trying to help last night. I appreciate you talking to us tonight. Thanks very much. Be careful out there.
SHERRIL: Yes, sir.
COPOPER: I want to show you -- these are pictures right now in Dallas, Texas. I'm told where there are some protests underway. These are the first time we are seeing these images. Can't tell how large the crowd is. But clearly, a heavy police presence there and we're going to continue to follow the situation in Dallas.
We're also, obviously, following developing stories in Tulsa, where the officer involved in that shooting has been charged with manslaughter.
[21:30:02] And this the scene now in Charlotte, where we have a number of reporters on the ground. Georgetown University Sociology professor, Michael Eric Dyson is with us, former LAPD officer David Klinger, retired NYPD Lieutenant Darren Porcher. COOPER: And this is the scene now in Charlotte, where we have a number of reporters on the ground. Georgetown University Sociology Professor, Michael Eric Dyson is with us, Former LAPD Officer David Klinger, and Retired NYPD Lieutenant Darren Porcher.
You know, David Klinger, it is, you know to what that young man Sammy was saying, you have a situation, we were talking about this before. We have all these people with cell phone cameras, recording things, wanted to get altercations, record that, or provoke something. And also, others who just want to document the protests that are going on. It is a very strange dynamic having been out in a number of situations like this.
KLINGER: Absolutely. And it complicates things for the police in terms of being able to manage the particular event that they're called upon to manage because almost invariably, it becomes a crowd control situation, as well as responding to the traffic stop, the family dispute, whatever the case might be.
COOPER: Michael Eric Dyson, you know, you talked about the kind of the historical, you know, that this doesn't happen in a vacuum. That there is a history ...
COOPER: ... here that this many of the people who were out on the streets tonight, it is not just this one incident. It is a litany of incidents that they have seen, that they have experienced and know about.
I imagine some people who listen to you say that all, you know, also point to people breaking into a store and looting a store and say, you know, how is that part of a legitimate protest? What do you say to that? Do you see that as just opportunism, or is that -- well, how do you see it?
DYSON: Well, look, obviously, there are people who are upset. They are outraged. They are chagrin. They feel that they have nothing left in this world to do but to offend a piece property or engage in other acts of some would say, you know, of violence.
And look, I don't condone any of that. But I don't condone people who after the fact, they don't see the foot that is on the person's neck, but they blame them for hollering too loudly, so to speak. So the reality is, we see the response. And we should rightfully engage in an analysis of that response and talk about what is productive and what is not, what is constructive and what is not.
On the other hand, we can't pretend that we don't know what makes them holler. We can't pretend that we don't know what leads to this. And I would say to brother Klinger, one of the things about the complications that the video brings is to complicate a narrative that police put forward, where they suggest, "Oh, I felt helpless. Oh, my, I was about afraid for my life."
When so many other times, that video stream has allowed us to see that they were lying. There's a culture of mendacity that's there as well. The reason those people are asking for the tape to be released and for us to have some kind of transparency is because they lack transparency in their interactions with the police.
The police have been able to without the verification that is provided by some of these videos to go on and lie on these people who are citizens, to say their story is the right story, and we have nothing else to, in one sense, juxtapose to with those people were saying.
Now in this complicated digital world, there is a multiple sources of video that prove that the truth is a lot more complicated than the police make it out to be. And perhaps it would hold them accountable in a way that they might not otherwise be.
So I think in that sense, the historical leverage of the pain, the suffering, the heartbreak that these people feel, I don't condone any kind of destruction of material. I don't condone destruction of property, but I don't condone the destruction of people's lives, hopes, aspirations, and ideals when in an American society that is supposed to protect their democracy, to protect their right to exist, they are often, in that sense, offended. They are often killed, they are often left aside, and they are often dismissed.
In this sense, it is a cry for attention, it is a cry for recognition, it is a cry for a fundamental belief ...
DYSON: ... that we are all equal and therefore, we should all be treated equally.
COOPER: Darren Porcher, you were with the NYPD. You're a retired lieutenant. You talked about having worked internal affairs. I'm wondering what you learned in that process of internal affairs.
I mean, does the presence of videos, does it help? And the whole notion to have body cams on police, do you think it will help with that -- the criticism that there is a sense of -- or used to be a sense of impunity in some quarters of law enforcement. Do you think it will help?
PORCHER: Well, the landscape in policing is changing. I'm a strong proponent of body cameras and transparency in policing. We as police are public servants. Therefore we serve the public, therefore we need to act accordingly. Police need to be advocate professionals.
[21:35:01] So when we take in consideration body cams or anything that can assist in the revolution in policing, I'm a strong proponent for because policing has a long way to go. I mean, granted, its come strides over the years, but we still have a lot of issues when we look at the atrocities that have happened in the past in connection with not just the African-Americans, but Latinos, other newly minted citizens that come into this country. Therefore, we need to move away from that. And how can we best address a quintessential focus in policing? And I believe the body cameras or I want to say technological advancements are a significant component. Because believe it or not, and this is something that doesn't really come up much, a lot of these technological advancements have been great assistance -- greatly assisted in the reduction in crime. Because how many times have you seen a video on television, this person stole a bag, or this person did that, contact police?
PORCHER: It has proven to be an effective mechanism for change.
COOPER: But I mean ...
PORCHER: Therefore ...
COOPER: We certainly just saw it you know here in New York with the ...
PORCHER: With the terrorist attack.
COOPER: David Klinger, as a criminologist, as a former LAPD officer, I want you to weigh in, if you want, on anything you just heard.
KLINGER: Yeah, briefly.
KLINGER: One of the things I'd like to point out is that an awful lot of the videos that have come out following officer-involved shootings clearly exonerate the officer.
PORCHER: Absolutely. It never did it much going ...
KLINGER: And so, we have to understand that it cuts both ways. And then the other thing I appreciate that Professor Dyson called me brother. I will call him brother Dyson.
COOPER: I always like it when Professor Dyson calls me brother. It makes my day frankly.
DYSON: Brother Andy.
KLINGER: There we go. But anyway, so my point is, all I'm arguing about in terms of the issues of the cameras is none of the police officers that I know have any objection to being videoed. The objection is that the citizens sometimes encroach and get too close. And then that creates that reactive thing that we're talking about.
PORCHER: You know what ...
KLINGER: If citizens stand back, I have never talked to any police officer who is concerned about that. What they are concerned about when the citizens get too close are or trying to instigate something. I think Professor Dyson and I are probably actually quite close on this point.
PORCHER: I just want to pick it back on something, real quick.
KLINGER: Let me say this. Can I?
PORCHER: Come on, let me get this point out.
COOPER: Darren, go ahead.
PORCHER: The PBA -- the NYPD's PBA conducted a study earlier this year. And an overwhelming 70 percent of all police officers in the NYPD were in approval and acceptance of the video cameras, because it goes -- the body cams -- and it goes back to what the gentleman mentioned earlier, many instances, it exonerates a cop.
And in addition to that, it reveals the complete narrative because oftentimes, when we have people who have cellphone camera, for example, it shows a snippet of what the narrative was however when officers wearing a body camera ...
COOPER: Right, it's more detailed.
PORCHER: ... it shows a more comprehensive overview.
COOPER: Professor Dyson?
DYSON: Let me say this, it is not only about the kind of optics of the case, so that people can see what's going on and they record it with a certain level of fidelity. It is also about a broader issue. Look, I'm a black man in America. I have been accosted by the police, I have been mistreated by the police. I have been called the N-word by the police. I have been beaten down by the police.
I have a PhD from Princeton University. I have abided by the law all my life. And yet my interactions with the police have been fraught with terror. And I think what we're discounting here is the degree to which the police are the manifestation of terror against black life that has been rendered vulnerable and disposable in America.
And as a result of that, our interactions with them will be also fraught with that kind of fear. So when the police have a legitimate concern about -- as brother Klinger said, if they're too close, that is the people that are looking at them, but what we have to do is look at the broader backdrop.
There has been a look of disgust, of disdain, of a kind of negative reaction from so many police toward African-American and Latino people that we can't in one sense exempt them from a broader culture of disregard for these people.
So the camera is but one smaller part of the larger whole, and that is how police people see African-American or Latino people.
DYSON: Do you see us as human? Do you see us as people who you would treat like your uncle? That's why community policing is so important.
COOPER: I would ...
KLINGER: When I was on the job ...
DYSON: If police people live in either state they'd come in ...
KLINGER:... I treated everybody equally.
DYSON: Well, that's you. But we have evidence that that doesn't occur. And as a result of that, your exemplary behavior I think would be replicated with be laudable. But the fact is that ...
KLINGER: Most of men and women that I know behave like me sir.
DYSON: But sir, look at this that's like doing to the doctor and saying, look most of my cells are fine, but the few are cancerous. And it's the cancerous ones that will kill the body. And right now ...
KLINGER: And you and I are examined on that.
DYSON: ... and the cancerous police are killing the body of if you will, justice for so many African-American, Latino people.
[21:40:00] KLINGER: And nobody wants those officers at a policing more than the good police officers who are the vast majority of officers that I've met in the last 35 years.
DYSON: But that's blue line is pretty good. That kind of fidelity ...
PORCHER: But you also have to take ...
DYSON: ... among the police people ...
PORCHER: ... police are not a monolithic culture. You have different variations of police. I constantly hear about either the good police or the bad police. How about what falls in the middle? Police are not this monolithic culture that people portray them as being. You have to deal with each situation accordingly.
Just like yourself, Professor Dyson, I have a doctorate degree too. And I am a black man and I grew up in the streets of New York. I've had a lot of these encounters myself. But you have to be able to compartmentalize each situation differently because if not, when you lump people together, that's when this explicit bias kicks in and that's when you have a great ...
DYSON: Well, sure. I'm not coming out winning ...
COOPER: I got to jump in. DYSON: ... and we're not talking about lumping together, we're talking about trends that can be defined. We're talking about empirically verifiable actions that should be documented. And I'm not talking about not treating people as individuals. I'm saying, however, we can't deny the science of it. And we can't deny what overwhelmingly is presented to us in scratch.
COOPER: I got to jump in and get a break. Brother Dyson, Brother Klinger, Brother Porcher thank you. We'll come back to all of you. I want to bring in -- actually I want to take a quick break then we'll be right back.
[21:45:13] COOPER: After two nights of violent protest, tonight, Charlotte, North Carolina is under close watch from helicopters above, the National Guard in state, local police on the ground. And now a curfew sets to take effect at midnight.
Joining me now is the mayor of Charlotte, Jennifer Roberts. Mayor Roberts, I know you've signed an order enacting a mandatory curfew starting at midnight. What led you to make that decision?
JENNIFER ROBERTS, MAYOR OF CHARLOTTE, NORTH CAROLINA: Well, we have been working closely with our law enforcement team, with our police chief, with our fire and medics and assessing the situation hour by hour. We've also heard from a number of folks from our business community who actually are supportive of a curfew.
And our chief made that assessment, looking at what's going on, on the ground, that it would be the most effective way to help keep a peace, a peaceful evening here in Charlotte, by having that curfew go from midnight to 6:00 a.m.
We issued the declaration on -- at 9:00 p.m. We wanted to give people a chance to finish up their business, get home, go to the grocery store, they need to do before midnight.
COOPER: How are things going from your vantage point so far?
ROBERTS: Well, it seems to me that tonight is more peaceful than last night. We appreciate the fact that we have National Guardsmen here, who are helping us, helping protect some of the buildings here, protecting property, and letting our police officers have a little more leeway and flexibility, and actually being out in the streets, with some of the protesters.
And we've seen some peaceful protests. We've seen some folks marching around, but it seems to be more peaceful tonight than it was last night.
COOPER: It also seems like tonight, we've seen more people try to stand between police and some of the more vocal protesters, to kind of keep the lines apart.
ROBERTS: Well, I tell you, that's been amazing. We actually have a number of groups from our faith community. I've talked to several pastors and ministers, even Muslim leaders and Jewish leaders, who are here to be a buffer, to put themselves in between protesters and police and say, "Let's please be peaceful. You know, let's work together, let's be collaborative."
And we even had a group from the Billy Graham Ministries who said a prayer with me tonight, praying for the peace in our city. And it's great to see folks in our community reaching out to help.
COOPER: The -- how do you think having the National Guard there to guard some of the sort of key buildings, has that freed up officers who might otherwise have to do that?
ROBERTS: Absolutely. The guardsmen and guardswomen are here from all over our state. And I've said welcome to several of them tonight. It's terrific to have them here. They really are stationed in front of our buildings.
We want to make sure there's no more broken glass. We want to make sure that our businesses feel safe, that our property is safe, and that does free up our police officers to be out in the crowds, to be in the street, on bicycles, walking and patrolling, and making sure we're keeping our street safe.
COOPER: How do you get word of the curfew that's going to take place in about two hours and 10 minutes? How do you get word to the protesters? I mean, will you just tell them over loud speakers? Have they already been informed as much as possible?
ROBERTS: Well, we've communicated that to all the major news stations and we have our normal channels of communications. Also, of course, our officers are informed. And through their system of communication and command and they're going to be talking to protesters and letting them know wherever they encounter them, that they have until midnight, and they need to be out of the streets.
COOPER: I was told that you have spoken to Secretary Hillary Clinton tonight. I'm curious what you talked about.
ROBERTS: Secretary Clinton did call me and she wanted to let me know that she is thinking about Charlotte. She's been here several times during the campaign. I told her it could almost be a second home to her, she's been here so often.
But she did lend her support to the city. She understands that big cities have challenges and she wants -- she wanted me to know that if there's anything she could do to help, that she'd be happy to do that.
COOPER: There was some talk, perhaps, of Trump or -- I mean, are you in favor of any candidates actually coming to Charlotte in the coming days? Whether it's Trump or ...
ROBERTS: No. I have not heard of any campaigns coming to Charlotte in the coming immediate week. Usually we only find out about that three to four days ahead because of security. So I haven't heard of anyone coming here in the next week, but Secretary Clinton has been here four times already this year.
COOPER: A lot of discussion over the police releasing or holding back the video from the public.
[21:50:00] Do you believe of the shooting should be released and released soon?
ROBERTS: Well, I actually was able to view that video today. And I'm in agreement with our chief as well as the family of Mr. Scott. And both the family and the chief have said the video is ambiguous. It is not clear when you have body camera in motion you have things in the way and obscured views, it is not clear. And I lean toward transparency. I lean towards wanting to release the video but I also am aware there is an active ongoing investigation, an independent investigation by the State Bureau of Investigation that is ongoing.
And I'm trying to strike that delicate balance between transparency to the public bus also knowing that we want that investigation to have the highest integrity. We want to have all the pieces in place before that is completed. And so I am working with our police chief and will continue to stay in touch with law enforcement and striking that delicate balance as to when that video might be released.
COOPER: You said that you're in agreement with the family that the video is ambiguous, not clear. Is it clear to you that Mr. Scott had a gun in his hand because the family attorney says they did not see that?
ROBERTS: It is not a very clear picture. And the gun in question is a small gun and it was not easy to see with the way the motion was happening, so it is ambiguous.
COOPER: Mayor Roberts, I appreciate your time tonight. I wish you the best in a difficult situation. Let's hope tonight is much better than the last two nights. Thank you so much.
ROBERTS: Thank you. Charlotte is a great city and we're going to get through this.
COOPER: We'll continue to check in with you, Mayor Roberts. Thank you. We want to again check in with Boris Sanchez who is out on the streets.
Boris, do the protesters -- are they aware of the curfew that's going to take place in about two hours?
SANCHEZ: Yeah, Anderson. I just asked a handful of them. Some of them, they had no idea there was curfew. Some of them knew that it was midnight, but obviously that's beyond what their focus is right now. It does not appear that curfew is going to remain intact for a lot of people out here. There's a lot of anger in the crowd.
They moved through a detention center a short while ago. They actually circled the detention center and started yelling at the prisoners inside, we see you, we love you. They circled back around after leaving that area. They're coming back towards downtown, toward the Omni Hotel where things really got out of hand last night.
From what I can see, there is National Guard at certain key points across the city in front of a couple of bus terminals over there. They were also at the detention center, at the police center as well.
Earlier tonight, there was a large, large group of heavily armed National Guard outside the Omni Hotel, with a very large vehicle with them. If they're still there, these protesters are going to confront them face to face as they have throughout the night.
They've stopped in certain key places, again chanting and yelling slogans, and now they're continuing to move towards that direction, again back towards downtown where all that we saw last night, really started in that intersection. Anderson.
COOPER: Boris, I'm worried about you walking backwards. You're doing it very well, but I'm worried about you. Of course we're going to continue checking with you throughout ...
SANCHEZ: We've got guys that are watching my back. So it's all right.
COOPER: OK. All right. I'm going ...
SANCHEZ: We've got guys that are watching, so ...
COOPER: All right. I'm going to let you go. We'll continue checking with you.
One man is doing what he can to keep the peace in Charlotte. One hug at a time. His name is Ken Nwadike, who started something called the Free Hugs Project, a group that went around in the middle of the chaos last night giving police officers hugs.
Ken joins me now along with Pastor Steve Knight of the Missiongathering Christian Church.
Ken, an incredible thing that you're doing. I see your shirt there, free hugs. You were out hugging police officers last night in Charlotte amidst the protest. Not everyone appreciated I'm sure you're giving hugs to police officers though. Some of the protesters I understand ...
KEN NWADIKE, FOUNDER, FREE HUGS PROJECT: Right.
COOPER: ... kind of got angry with you. What did people say to you? What do you say to them?
NWADIKE: Well, I think that, you know, people are hurting and I understand that, and I think it was very you've had tough to see a black man hugging police officers which to me doesn't really makes sense, you know, because I don't see it as it's us versus the police. You know we're all human beings.
And so I was pointing out to them that those specific officers didn't do anything to them and so it's very important for us to be able to spread love towards one another. So I'm having a little trouble hearing with the motorcycles.
COOPER: It's OK. It's all right. We understand. I mean at one point in the video from last night, you tell a woman you're arguing with that you can't even reason with her. I'm wondering just how important it is, do you think the ability to have a dialogue about police shootings, about protests, on both sides of the issue?
[21:55:01] NWADIKE: Absolutely, yeah. I think that, you know, being able to open up that communication about how we move passed some of these issues and I think there's this idea that people have, "Well, I'm angry and so I'm just going to lash out."
And that's not the way to move about it. And so I try to make sure that when I'm out, I'm just reminding people that love and peaceful protests and things that's going to be the way that we get passed some of these things and be able to sit down and have real discussions as human beings.
COOPER: Pastor Knight, you were at the protest last night and I understand you actually witnessed the shooting. How shocked were you that something like this is happening in your community, on your doorstep?
PASTOR STEVE KNIGHT, MISSIONGATHERING CHRISTIAN CHURCH: On one hand, Anderson, it was very shocking and at the same time, it's something that we've seen across the country over the last couple years. Many of us have woken up to the reality of racial injustice in this country and to be out there last night was -- it -- what started out very peaceful turned out to be a very scary night.
And it did not have to go that way. And that's what was very disappointing. And the city is hurting, the city is grieving. We've now lost two of our citizens and we're looking for answers.
COOPER: Well, Pastor Knight, I appreciate you being out there yet again. I think what both of you are doing -- and Ken, thank you so much. I appreciate you guys taking the time to talk to us. Be careful out there. We'll continue to touch base with you in the coming days. We'll be right back.