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Trump Comments on Stop and Frisk Cause Controversy; Officials in North Carolina Hold Press Conference; Phil Donahue Talks Presidential Debate. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired September 22, 2016 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[14:30:00] BILL DE BLASIO, (D), NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: We ended that unconstitutional use of Stop and Frisk, that overuse of Stop and Frisk. What's happened in the three years since we made the change, crime has gone down consistently since we actually stopped using it.

Donald Trump talks about Stop and Frisk like he knows the facts. He has had no experience with policing or public safety. He should be careful because if we reinstitute Stop and Frisk all over this country, you would see a lot more tension between police and community.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Let's talk about the facts, the raw data. Because here's what we do know. Look from 2004 to 2012, in New York City alone, 4.4 million people were stopped and frisked by police officers. 87 percent of them were minorities, black or Latino, and 12 percent of them were charged. So 4.4 million people stopped, 87 percent minorities, only 12 percent were charged.

We're going to debate this all. And Jumaani Williams is with me. He's a New York City councilman. His legislation was a big part of curbing Stop and Frisk. Also with me, retired detective lieutenant with the Nutley, New Jersey Police Department, Steve Rogers, also a former member of the FBI Joint Terrorism Task force.

Thank you for being with me.

JUMAANI WILLIAMS, NEW YORK CITY COUNCILMAN: Thanks for having me.

HARLOW: Let's begin with those numbers. 4.5 million people stopped in that span of time, 2004 to 2012, only 12 percent charged. Is that effective? Donald Trump says that's "incredibly well."

WILLIAMS: So Donald Trump is the epitome of the dangers of ignorance. Also, one of the good numbers is that there was one year they stopped more young black people than actually lived in the city of New York and all of the data matches up to say there was never any connection between the amount of stops that were made, shootings and murders. You have to keep in mind, Stop, Question and Frisk, there's nothing wrong with the tactic, it was the use of it. HARLOW: It was how it was applied. In 2013, the federal court ruled

it violated Fourth Amendment rights, unreasonable search and seizure and the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment.

WILLIAMS: So the minute you say, "I want Stop, Question and Frisk," it's going to be unconstitutional by nature. And we've shown, since the peak of 700,000, down to 27,000, murders, shootings have gone down, arrests have gone down, gun arrests have gone up.

HARLOW: Detective Lieutenant, why do you think it's a good idea? Are those numbers that show its efficacy? Is it effective?

STEVE ROGERS, RETIRED DETECTIVE LIEUTENANT, NUTLEY, NEW JERSEY POLICE DEPARTMENT & FORMER MEMBER, FBI JOINT TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Let's look at the real numbers. 3,000 people shot or wounded in Chicago.

HARLOW: But let's - hold on.

ROGERS: Why do we have to focus on --

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: This is NYPD data. I want to make sure you're agreeing these are facts.

ROGERS: I'd say most of them are. I haven't seen them, I haven't studied them. I'm looking at Chicago right now. I'm looking at what Donald Trump said. It seems we always pivot to the negative, the politically correct, sanitized version the mayor gave us. There's 3,000 or more people wounded or killed in Chicago. Number two, people in Chicago are crying out for help. The police are crying out for help. Donald Trump is saying I will deliver you the help.

HARLOW: I hear you.

(CROSSTALK)

ROGERS: So this is your answer.

HARLOW: Let me finish with this. 500 homicides in Chicago this year alone. That was as of two weeks ago. So it's likely more now. The numbers are appalling and horrible and the community needs and deserves help. The question is, why is Stop and Frisk the best way to get to a solution? That's my question to you. What tells us it works?

ROGERS: The answer is, it's not the best way but it's one of the ways. Stop and Frisk enables the police to look at someone and if they look suspicious, if they -- if a citizen calls and says that guy has a little bulge on his side, it's more than likely going to be a gun in Chicago.

HARLOW: Why?

ROGERS: Why?

(CROSSTALK)

ROGERS: This is actually correct.

3,000 people were shot or wounded in Chicago.

(CROSSTALK)

ROGERS: Are you saying of anyone street, Chicago, even if they're in Michigan, and they have a bulge, likely to be a gun, or are you talking about specific neighborhoods?

ROGERS: No. There's a totality of circumstances that would come into stopping someone and frisking them.

Now my friend here is right about one thing, it should never be misused. It should not just be on a whim. There should be a totality of circumstances. If there's a shooting down the street and somebody says, hey, there's a guy walking down the street, he has a bulge on his right side and gives a description, Stop and Frisk means, hey, the officer just based on that can stop them and frisk them.

WILLIAMS: But, see that set up is correct.

HARLOW: And that's different because there was a shooting because you have proximate cause, you have a circumstance.

WILLIAMS: The conflation comes in -- when you say that, people think that's what Donald Trump is suggesting, but that's not true.

HARLOW: Guys, I'm taking you to a live press conference.

The governor of North Carolina, Pat McCrory going to speak at any moment. We'll get back to this discussion in a moment.

But this is so important, because this is not only the first time we've heard from him since arriving, this is the first time he's spoken since the shooting of Mr. Scott.

[14:34:52] PAT MCCRORY, GOVERNOR OF NORTH CAROLINA: Good afternoon. I'd like to welcome to my side -- first of all, I'm Pat McCrory, governor of North Carolina. I'd like to welcome my chief of staff, Thomas Stiff (ph); Adjutant General Greg Luxe (ph) of the National Guard; Secretary Frank Perry, secretary of public safety.

I'd also like to recognize the great Police Chief Kerr Putney.

And also I would like to very much welcome Mayor Jennifer Roberts.

I want to commend during the last 48 hours the incredible work of the law enforcement team of Charlotte-Mecklenburg. They have been courageous, they have been hardworking, they have been passionate. They have done their job and they have more work to do. And I would like to continue to ask our state and this community to support their efforts in this very, very difficult job.

In addition to the chief's fine law enforcement officers, I want to thank members of the fire department, who were working very hard last night to also help with public safety. They weren't recognized last night, but they did an outstanding job.

I'd like to also thank the leadership of Charlotte, including Mayor Jennifer Roberts, the city council, the county commission, and leaders of the faith and business community who are doing everything they can to help resolve this very, very tough issue and try to make this community as peaceful and great as it's always been. Because Charlotte, North Carolina, is the greatest city in the United States of America. I was proud to be mayor here for 14 years. It's not only one of the great states of North Carolina, it's one of the great states in the United States of America. And I want to do everything I can to assist the mayor and the chief and the people of Charlotte to get back to normal times of welcoming and peace and prosperity.

I also want to thank fellow governors who have been calling me all during past 10 hours, governors from South Carolina, Missouri, Florida Wisconsin, who have offered their services in any way they can.

I also want to thank the president of the United States. About an hour and a half ago, I had a very nice conversation with President Obama. I also talked to his chief of staff about three or four hours ago, and I want to thank the president for offering his assistance and listening to some of the challenges that we're facing right now Charlotte.

I'm here today to basically communicate to the people of North Carolina and to the citizens of Charlotte about the resources that I'm going to transfer to the chief of police regarding his ability to coordinate additional assets in order to bring peace to the great city of Charlotte. I want to explain those assets and his role and his responsibility and our team who are going to be working directly with your chief in his continued coordination of not under his responsibility in the city of Charlotte but the assets under my control as governor of North Carolina.

And it's extremely important that we continue this team work. We've had an ongoing communication during the past 48 hours with the mayor, with your chief, and with all officials among my team to ensure that we have a well-coordinated activity during this tough time.

I want to let you know first of all this. As governor, I firmly believe that we can not tolerate any type of violence directed towards citizens or any type of destruction of property. And I'm going do everything I can to help our police force here in Charlotte- Mecklenburg to keep and ensure our police officers are treated with respect and ensure there is no further destruction of property and those who destroy property will be dealt with. And I want to make sure the chief can do his job with the necessary resources and job. I knew him many years ago when I road with the police department as a city council member and he understands community policing. He understands the neighborhoods of this great city. And he's also gotten an incredible positive reputation with his fellow police officers and with police chiefs across the nation. Charlotte is lucky to have a great police chief. Let me talk about the assets I'm transfer for the chief's

coordination. The National Guard has been mobilized. General Lusk has brought members of the National Guard to Charlotte. They have come from all over the state during the past 24 hours. There are still some arriving. And we're doing everything we can to support their effort so they can support the chief of police and his team. You have to remember these are men and women. Most are part-time members of the National Guard. They also have other jobs so they're taking on this public responsibility and public service. And I'd like to thank them for their service. Primarily, their responsibility -- but it could be changed under the chief of police -- is to help protect the buildings and other structures in and around the Charlotte area so the police department here can do their job. In addition, they're going do some construction regarding the bridges and highways. And all these people being moved to Charlotte at this point in time have had the necessary police training, which is part of National Guard training.

[14:40:53] I want to let you know is they have allocated a number of state troopers under Secretary Frank Perry's responsibility. He is working hand in hand with the police chief. Excepting the numbers he thinks the police chief needs to keep this city safe. And we've had those ongoing discussions during the pass 24 hours. The state troopers will be helping with traffic control, supplementing some of the work with the Charlotte-Mecklenburg Police Department, and helping protect property and our highways.

The third group I do also want to say that has been working very closely during the past 48 hours with the city is the SBI, which is also under my responsibility as governor. But the main thing is the SBI is currently participating in and leading an independent investigation of the most recent incident that occurred here in Charlotte-Mecklenburg and they are proceeding with that investigation as quickly as possible so we can resolve exactly what happened and then communicate that investigation general public.

I also want to recognize the state emergency team headquartered in Raleigh. They are at the operations center right now. They are dealing with two major issues, one here in Charlotte. We are also having major floods in the northeastern part of North Carolina. We're having 100-year rainfall in eastern North Carolina. We've already had 60 water rescues in the northeastern part of the state. It's not national news, but very heroic things are occurring in the northeastern part of North Carolina with major flooding of streams and water rescues. And we're concerned about the crest of some rivers. So Mike Spraybury (ph), of my emergency response team, is handling that responsibility at time in Raleigh, while also helping this team in Charlotte. So we have several situations going on at once in North Carolina.

Our goal is to be a team, our goal is to provide peace and safety for citizens and to work with the community and to continue to make sure the city continues to be great. Because it is. I want to let the national audience know that Charlotte, North Carolina, is a great city, great people, a great place to live, work, and raise a family. We're not going to let a few hours give a negative impact on a great city. And this city is also very resilient. I know it, because I still live here. And I'm proud to live here.

So with that, I'll have Mayor Roberts say a few words and I'll answer a few questions.

Mayor Roberts, thank you very much for your work. Appreciate it.

JENNIFER ROBERTS, (D), CHARLOTTE, NORTH CAROLINA MAYOR: Thank you, Governor. Thank you so much.

And we welcome Governor McCrory here in Charlotte. Even though he still leaves here, we always welcome you back.

MCCRORY: I have several houses now.

ROBERTS: There you go. Feel free to come up to the 15th floor and look at your old chair. Good view, as you first told me.

I want to reiterate that our Police Chief Kerr Putney remains of law enforcement in our city. And I'll add to the accolades you just heard the governor give. You gave away all the thank yous, but I want to add to that. Our CMPD, our fire department and our medic and sheriff's office, first responders at the local level have done heroic things in the last several days. They have been a team and they have worked well together. And Chief Putney has a reputation that is not just regional, it's national I talked to folks who serve with him --

HARLOW: We're going to continue to monitor this press conference. The mayor of Charlotte speaking there. The headline from the governor of North Carolina, Pat McCrory calling the police there dealing with the protesters last night courageous, and he said, "We are not going to let a few hours give a negative impact on the city as a whole."

Back with me now, my guest, Jumaane Williams, a New York City councilman; and Steve Rogers, a retired detective lieutenant of the Nutley Police in New Jersey.

What was your assessment of what we heard from the governor, Jumaane? We heard nothing about the shooting and this is the first time we've heard from him since the shooting of Mr. Scott. He basically said this is not who Charlotte is, we will get through this. Your take?

[14:45:] WILLIAMS: Well, I'm getting tired of people saying, "This is not who we are," because apparently it is. And so we've seen this happening over and over. And we should probably deal with it.

One of the issues I have that particularly people talking about Stop, Question and Frisk and those issues, they mentioned the community was crying out. They also cry out for other things that people don't seem to hear, from jobs to housing. And what I like to liken it to is if you go to the a hospital, you go to triage and they will treat the acute problems but you have to have a solution for the chronic problems, we keep trying to solve chronic problems with acute solutions and we say this over and over. So policing is one of the need partners but it's an acute solution. We have chronic problems and until we get real with those chronic problems and get solutions meant for that -- (CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: The chronic problems you're talking about are economic inequality, lack of jobs, opportunity.

WILLIAMS: Absolutely.

HARLOW: You're pointing to really big picture.

WILLIAMS: Really big picture. Those communities have been starved of these for decades. So you see the combination of the lack of housing, lack of access to education, lack of jobs, those things aren't sent. The only things that are sent if anything, any resource, are policing.

HARLOW: And you're not saying that's an excuse for the looting and vandalism.

WILLIAMS: No, I'm not, absolutely.

HARLOW: You're saying you won't solve that without bigger picture.

WILLIAMS: That's absolutely correct.

HARLOW: Detective Lieutenant, go you.

ROGERS: The councilman is absolutely right. The problem is not the people in the community, the problem is not the police, but it is the politicians who, for year after year after year, have promised these people, who are living in these big-problem issue areas, everything under the sun, and has delivered nothing. It's not a Democratic problem, it's not a Republican problem, it's an American problem. And until leadership on both sides step up and give the police the tools they need to help the community and the things that the community needs to help themselves, jobs, education, good schools, we won't find that.

HARLOW: You both agree on this. It makes you wonder what will it take for the politicians, the American public as a whole, to come together to solve these issues for people who have less and less opportunity, and to give them a better shot at upward mobility. Was it Ferguson? No? Was it Baltimore? No. Was it Milwaukee? How long will it take?

(CROSSTALK)

ROGERS: I'll give you the answer straight.

HARLOW: How many cities is it going to take?

ROGERS: I'll tell you what it's going to take. A complete cleaning out of career politicians, a complete cleaning out of them. Politicians get very, very comfortable -- I don't know you, so this has nothing against you.

WILLIAMS: I'm elected official. ROGERS: Politicians has an obsessiveness with the power and they forget the people. They look for their own survival and not the survival of the people. My recommendation would be, directly, term limits for every office in the land and make those changes.

WILLIAMS: But I would say you can't do fit a leading presidential candidate is pushing the same divisive and unfair tactics we've heard. This push about Stop, Question and Frisk leads us to the same problems and it's done in a way without knowing the facts.

ROGERS: He's right. That won't help.

(CROSSTALK)

ROGERS: And you can't do it when you have he United States who creates a false narrative about these issues. He has to stand up for the police when it comes to rioting.

HARLOW: We did hear some coming together there, the Republican Governor Pat McCrory --

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: -- thanking the call they had this afternoon.

Gentlemen, thank you very much.

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: Appreciate having you on.

Coming up next, we are four days away from the first presidential debate. Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump will face off. You will watch it live. Donald Trump said he doesn't necessarily think there should need to be a moderator. The guess who joins me next, Phil Donahue, he oversaw a presidential round table discussion. Do you remember that? Back in '92. He let the candidates battle it out one- on-one and he sat and watched for a little while. We'll ask him about that and what he thinks of this wild race. Don't miss it, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:53:57] HARLOW: The very first presidential debate is four days away. Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump are scrambling, trying to anticipate what questions the moderator, Lester Holt, may ask them.

But what if a political debate happened without a moderator? It kind of did. Let me take you back to April, 1992. Phil Donahue arranged a round table discussion between Democratic candidates, Bill Clinton and Jerry Brown.

Here's what Donahue said minutes before the event started.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PHIL DONAHUE, HOST, THE PHIL DONAHUE SHOW: Well, I've seen you guys fighting and arm wrestling moderators all over the country. Here's a chance to set your own agenda.

JERRY BROWN, (D), CALIFORNIA GOVERNOR & FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Rise above it all?

DONAHUE: Well, more than that, it's, you know, free of people who would presume to know what the best questions are.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Presume to know what the best questions are. Here is what Donahue said to kick off that debate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONAHUE: I'm pleased to present Governor Brown, Governor Clinton.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(LAUGHER)

HARLOW: And you left it to them.

Joining me, legendary talk show host, Phil Donahue.

DONAHUE: Pleasure.

HARLOW: Gosh, what if that happened Monday night? I don't think we'll see that from Lester Holt.

DONAHUE: No, but I still think it might not be a bad idea.

HARLOW: Why? Because Donald Trump has said that. He has said maybe we should just have, quote, "no moderator." Why would -- why is that a good idea?

[14:55:26] DONAHUE: Well, first of all, that debate with all my good intentions I don't think was a success. First of all, they were both from the Democratic Party so it became an hour long valentine to the wonderful Democratic Party and C-Span agreed to air it, no commercials. This one I think would be different. And my original thought was to put them a dark room where you could see nothing behind them, they would only be allowed to have a pad and pencil, the tally lights on the cameras would be disengaged so you wouldn't know where you were on and what would they discuss? What issues would they ignore? Would they interrupt? Would they interrupt too much? Would they talk too much? Enough? I think we would see the real person in a more -- less artificial situation.

HARLOW: But they would only be fact checked by one another and you've heard different things, Chris Wallace has come out and said, "I don't believe it's my job to be the truth squad." He'll be moderating one of the debates. But there is an element of fact checking for who's facilitating the debate.

DONAHUE: Well, there is. I think what Chris meant was I can't immediately go to Google on every answer. But I do think -- nothing bothers the press more than bad press like Matt Lauer got. He was very much criticized. So I think a lot of pompous press write around saying, wasn't it awful? Wasn't it awful? They hit heart, I think self-righteously. I'm saying let's relax a bit. I feel for Lester Holt. I think now he feels obliged to push back and the result will be verbal arm wrestling.

HARLOW: Verbal arm wrestling.

Let's talk about expectations. We know how they're preparing, briefing books, mock debates and we know from Donald Trump's family members that he talks it out with his team, no briefing books. One would think he's walking in with perhaps lower expectations in terms of being prepped the normal way but does that make it harder for Hillary Clinton if the expectations are she'll have a zillion facts to spew out, does it make it harder for her to go in with those expectations?

DONAHUE: As you know, I'm a brilliant man.

HARLOW: I do know that.

DONAHUE: I just don't always remember where I parked my car.

(LAUGHTER)

This answer to your question is I don't know. I don't know what expectations people might have. I'm not sure Hillary does. But I think if you just let them go, their real selves will manifest -- will become more clear. And if they're bawdy and disrespectful and pushy, they will fall of their own weight. Let's trust the audience for once.

HARLOW: This election has been unique in so many ways and I want your perspective on what you think changes in American elections after this one. How has this one completely changed the game?

DONAHUE: Well, television has, media has.

HARLOW: But this? This election?

DONAHUE: I think media has played a more central role in this election than any of the past elections, although, it was important in past elections. Donald Trump is like a guy in a top hat who just jumped out of a cake and "Hooray Hollywood." We're attracted to that.

If I had a show, I would put him on. The coin of the realm is the size of the audience and he draws an audience, there's no doubt about it. I don't have to tell you. If nobody's watching, we are all going to be parking cars and he ensures a bigger audience.

HARLOW: Phil Donahue, so nice to meet you. So nice to have you on.

DONAHUE: My pleasure. Thank you.

HARLOW: We'll be watching Monday night. Thank you very much.

DONAHUE: Pleasure.

HARLOW: All right.

All right, top of the hour, 3:00 p.m. eastern. I'm Poppy Harlow, in for my friend, Brooke Baldwin.

We are back now with --