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Family, Protesters Demand Release of Video; Family: Videos Don't Justify Deadly Force; Charlotte Protesters Peaceful on 3rd Night; Tulsa Police Charged with First-Degree Manslaughter; Trump, Clinton Prep for First Face-Off. Aired 9-9:30 ET

Aired September 23, 2016 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[09:00:00] CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: His family shown those videos yesterday, saying it's not clear what Scott was holding, the gun that police claim or a book as they continue to insist. Joining me now, Charlotte's Mayor Jennifer Roberts. Welcome, Mayor.

MAYOR JENNIFER ROBERTS, CHARLOTTE, NORTH CAROLINA: Good morning.

COSTELLO: Good morning. Thank you so much for being here because I know you're a busy woman these days, and you must be exhausted. So last night's protests were largely peaceful. To what do you attribute that to?

ROBERTS: Well, I want to thank all the folks who were involved, our law enforcement officers, even our State Troopers and National Guard -- all the folks here, police, fire and medic, and also the faith community. We had several religious leaders who were out among the crowd. We had several just citizens who were out, trying to calm things down, listening, reinforcing peace. So I want to thank all those folks for helping us have a much more peaceful night last night.

I think the presence of the National Guard helped us in terms of freeing up our officers to be out among the crowd, to be calming things down, out on their bikes, out walking around, without their riot shields really engaging with the community and allowing that peaceful demonstration to continue.

COSTELLO: I know that curfew was instituted last night, but it was not enforced. Will that curfew be in place tonight?

ROBERTS: Yes. We plan to continue the curfew tonight. We're going to have a briefing and update later this morning with our law enforcement experts, but the curfew will be in place again tonight. And I think part of the reason that it was hard to get the information out to all the folks when we announced it at 9:00 p.m. Tonight, they know ahead of time. We're going to continue to get that word out. And I think that was also part of helping keep it peaceful. A lot of folks did observe the curfew and did stay home. And, again, that just helped us work with the resources we had to keep it more peaceful.

I'd like to talk about the videotape now because the protesters were calling last night for full transparency and for that police video to be released, the dash cam video, whatever other video is out there. When will you make that decision on whether or not to release video to the public?

ROBERTS: Well, we are having ongoing conversations about that. We have had the family see the video, several elected officials have seen the video. We want some community leaders to see that video. I would like to have it released, and I think that we're going to have continuing conversations with our investigators.

We now have an independent SBI -- that's State Bureau of Investigation -- going on, and we want to make sure we're not compromising that investigation. But we are going to continue to have conversations about how soon we might be able to release that. I understand the community' desire and, you know, I echo the words of our police chief. The videos are inconclusive but I think that --

COSTELLO: Well, let me --

ROBERTS: -- in their efforts --

COSTELLO: Let me ask you this because this is what some people fear, right? Because in October, this new law is going to go into effect in North Carolina that would require a Court Order to have such videotape released. Will this videotape be released before this law goes into effect?

ROBERTS: Well, we have been told by our attorney that the law does not impact our decision on this particular incident because the incident occurred before October 1st. So we're not concerned about the timing of that law going into effect. We're going to have conversations now about what we think is the best for continued transparency but also continued integrity of our investigative process.

COSTELLO: Mayor, can you just order the tape released, or do you have to convince people? Do you have that power?

ROBERTS: I do not have the authority, individually, to order the tape be released, but we can, again, have those conversations and absolutely, I think it is only a matter of time. And the question is, what do -- we want to make sure we're not jeopardizing in the timing. We want to make sure that we're not, for example, changing witnesses' views of what happened based on something they see later.

So we're going to have those conversations, believe me. I'll be working very hard to try to get to a point where we can release that video.

COSTELLO: The protester that was shot two nights ago, he eventually died in the hospital later. Is there anything new in that investigation?

ROBERTS: That's ongoing, as well, and I do not have any details on that. Our thoughts and prayers are with the victim's family.

[09:05:01] COSTELLO: Do you know who shot this protester -- who allegedly shot this protester?

ROBERTS: As I said, that investigation is ongoing as well, and I do not have an update on details.

COSTELLO: OK. And, you know, the big debate is coming up in the national election and you know that North Carolina is going to figure into that. Donald Trump has said drugs are to blame for the violent protest in Charlotte. Do you agree with that?

ROBERTS: I think it's presumptuous for him to make a conclusion like that without having thorough conversations with some of the folks who are here on the ground and really aware of what is going on and what the reasoning is. Several of our council members were out in the crowd last night, talking to people. I've been listening to folks. I've got lots of phone calls. I've talked to a lot of folks on the street. We have a much better understanding than Mr. Trump.

COSTELLO: OK. And what is fueling these protests, in your mind?

ROBERTS: Well, I think there are a couple of things. I think that even though we have a strong history of community policing and people know we have community officers that are known in their neighborhoods to have great rapport with citizens, even in spite of that, there is distrust with the disparity of how African-Americans are handled in police incidents versus how Whites are handled. I think there is a concern about that.

There's also a concern when you look at what's happening nationally and having this occur in other cities as well. But even deeper than that, you know, we have a history of racial disparity, and we are working very hard in our city to bridge that gap, to make sure whether we're looking at education or economic opportunity, social justice, all those things, we are working very hard to make sure opportunity is spread equally around our city.

COSTELLO: And just one last question, Mayor, and I know you got to get back to business, but Donald Trump said that he's thinking of visiting the Charlotte area after the debate. Would you welcome either candidate to Charlotte sometime after Monday?

ROBERTS: We have welcomed both the candidates to Charlotte before, both have been here, and we welcome them again. And we want to have our citizens involved in the national debate, as well. We think it's important, so we want to have that diversity of opinion discussed openly. And, you know, Charlotte's a welcoming place.

COSTELLO: Mayor Jennifer Roberts, thank you so much for taking the time. I do appreciate it.

So let's break this down, shall we? Matthew Horace is a 28-year veteran of Federal, State, and local law enforcement. He now serves as a CNN law enforcement analyst. And Laura Coates is a former Federal prosecutor and CNN legal analyst. Welcome to both of you.

LAURA COATES, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Thank you.

COSTELLO: So, Laura, let's start with the release of that videotape. You heard the mayor, she said she would like to have it released, but she has to convince law enforcement that it's in the best interest of the investigation.

COATES: Yes. And I was shocked by that response because, not because I wasn't expecting them to try to hedge, but think about it. They had pre-conference where they outlined exactly what was on the videotape and gave a compelling narrative that was in direct contrast with what the family did. Now, we're hearing it's inconclusive. And the reason the officers don't want to release it is because they're afraid they're going to try to change some things based on what they actually saw.

But what we learned yesterday, is that the wife of the man who was killed was actually present inside as well. So they're not going to change her viewpoint. This is an example if they're trying to get their ducks in a row, to maintain the narrative they have put forward. And they're hoping that it will not be released to change that narrative.

COSTELLO: So, Horace, you'd been involved in investigations. Is what Laura is saying correct?

MATTHEW HORACE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: I think it is, but I think we als0 have to remember that there's no timing on transparency. So whether we release the information today or release the information two weeks from now, it doesn't change the facts. There is only one set of true facts.

COSTELLO: But wouldn't it calm things down, the sooner they release it?

HORACE: It very well may but investigavely, I'd still like to know other things as a person in law enforcement. Was there one gun or three guns? Was there drugs? What are the facts of the case and when will we learn those facts. And there may be more facts than what we're hearing. The chief's already said that the video is not conclusive. And in my mind, what that means is there's not enough information to convince the three of us that the shooting was either right or wrong.

COSTELLO: But you see what people are going to say. They're going to point to the situation in Tulsa, right? There were pictures of that. That officer has now been charged for that shooting. And there are people who are going to say, you know, if the video wasn't out there, she wouldn't have been charged. And that's what they're thinking this time around.

HORACE: Right.

COSTELLO: Like, what are police hiding?

COATES: Right. And, you know, you're talking about when they've held on to video tapes too long, a feud happened in Chicago with Laquan McDonald. It fuels a distrust and that narrative becomes the impetus behind protesting, et cetera.

[09:10:58] And so if the interest is in transparency, then it should be released. If it's interested in trying to maintain a narrative to try to steer a potential grand jury to find what the officers want to be case, that's not transparency. And we're not talking about a trial yet where you have to know everything. You're talking about what we have so far. That video is static in time. It will not change between now and the time if there is a trial, so why not release it?

COSTELLO: We have a photograph taken by a bystander at the scene, where Mr. Scott died. Can we bring that up? There it is. So, of course, I want you to look at that. So that little black dot, you know, the blurred out portion is Mr. Scott's body, and you see that, what appears to be a gun. So these pictures are already out in the public and people are looking at this and they're wondering, so why don't police help the public with this by releasing more videos so people can really know what we're seeing here?

HORACE: Well, I think if there was a good crisis management and a message management strategy ongoing, then we see sort of like a drip campaign of information being released, little by little by little. But we have to remember, there is still an investigation going on. And, oftentimes, as you know as a federal prosecutor, hell, I've been told a lot of times, don't tell anybody about this, don't tell the anyone about that, in cases where a death wasn't involved because we want to protect the integrity of the investigation.

I understand the public's feelings because I'm a part of the public. And I understand that distrust factor but I would also like to see factual information put forward when the investigation is complete so that we get good information. We can quell the protests, certainly avoid the violence and move forward.

COSTELLO: Laura, I could point to Baltimore because video was released there, too, right?

COATES: Yes.

COSTELLO: A lot of police officers were charged with crimes in that instant and everybody who looked at that video taken says, yes, those officers are guilty but guess what? None of them were ever convicted. So video doesn't tell the story every single time.

COATES: No, video is never a guarantee to having a conviction. What it is is a step in the relationship between the officers and the community to say, here's what we know so far. And when you have a distrust issue, that's often the foundation for why the police say they would like not to release videos. It's private personnel file. It's private. They don't want people to have an ongoing mistrust for the police. That has nothing to do with the investigation. That's a P.R. problem, not a transparency issue.

COSTELLO: OK. I want you both to stay here because we're going to continue this conversation after a short break. We're actually going to take you live to Tulsa, too, for more on that officer that I mentioned who was charged in the shooting death in Tulsa. I'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [09:16:37] CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Let's head out to Tulsa, where the officer who shot and killed an African-American man is now out on bail. Officer Betty Shelby has been charged with manslaughter. If convicted, she could get four years to life in prison. Prosecutors say Shelby reacted unreasonably when she gunned down Terence Crutcher after his SUV broke down last week.

CNN's Ana Cabrera live in Tulsa with more for you. Hi, Ana.

ANA CABRERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Carol. We know that police and the district attorney's office move very quickly in this case, doing their investigation and now bringing charges just six days after that fatal shooting.

I want you to listen to how the family of Terence Crutcher reacted after hearing the district attorney's announcement.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TIFFANY CRUTCHER, TERENCE CRUTCHER'S SISTER: We know the history of these cases. We know this is the formality. We know she's been charged. But then we're getting no conviction. We're demanding full prosecution. We want a conviction, and when that happens -- this is a small victory, but we know, we've got to get ready to fight this war. And so we want for everyone, the community, the world, to join arms, lock arms with us, as we go out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Now Crutcher's story really hit a national nerve, after that video was released, showing Crutcher with his arms up in the moments before Officer Shelby shot and killed him. Now Officer Shelby has said that she feared for her life, thinking Crutcher was reaching into his vehicle when she opened fire. We now know he was unarmed and, furthermore, the prosecutor in the documents that were filed says that she had actually cleared the vehicle prior to her confrontation with Crutcher and that it appears in the video, from the scene, that the window is rolled up.

He goes on to write this, really summing up the decision for warranting the charges. Says, quote, "Officer Shelby reacted unreasonably by escalating the situation from a confrontation with Mr. Crutcher, who was not responding to verbal commands and was walking away from her with his hands up, becoming emotionally involved to the point that she overreacted."

Now we have reached out to the attorney for Officer Shelby and we have not heard back just yet, but we'll keep trying, Carol?

COSTELLO: All right. Ana Cabrera reporting live from Tulsa this morning.

So let's bring back my panel. With me now, again, Matthew Horace and Laura Coates. Welcome back.

So, Horace, I'm going to start with you. So you heard Ana mentioned those court documents. That was the affidavit. And I'm going to read some more of the officer's state of mind from that affidavit. It says this Tulsa officer became emotionally involved to the point that she overreacted. In other words, she let her fear rule her actions, even though she could see no sign that Mr. Crutcher had any kind of weapon.

So as a trained police officer, she allowed fear to overtake her. What goes through your mind when you hear that?

MATTHEW HORACE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, you know, we've all been in situations when fear was kind of overwhelming us because these are some dangerous situations we often get involved with. But I think equally as compelling as that is that helicopter radio traffic that we heard, when you heard the officer who was in the air say, this looks like a bad guy. Well, those sort of messages that are going into your ear in the middle of an incident sort of create a narrative that this is a situation that might be worse than you think it is.

COSTELLO: So she was hearing what was said in the helicopter?

HORACE: Yes. And we're still wondering, what makes this person a bad guy? And how do you know from the helicopter that that looks like a bad guy?

[09:20:02] Some people would argue that this is code word for a black guy or a big guy and that's supposed to make you respond somewhat differently. Fear happens in law enforcement, to all of us at one point or another. But they were in a position where they could put a hands on Mr. Crutcher and not have to resort to lethal force.

COSTELLO: But does it feed into that narrative that this officer was overcome by fear because she was confronting a big black guy?

LAURA COATES, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It very well could, but her fear and reason why she's being judged for this is because we give a lot of deference to officers because they're always confronted with situations like this. They make split-second decisions situations in places where other people would be fearful. But we expect them to be level-headed and cool-headed. And remember, you can only use lethal force if you are presented with lethal force.

In this case, she cleared the vehicle, knowing there was not a weapon inside. She did not see a weapon on his body. He reached into his pocket more than once, it did not produce a weapon or brandish one in any fashion. He walked away from her. And more importantly, officers are judged by what other officers would do. And other officers on the scene pulled a taser, not a gun. We judge her by what they did not do, as well, and that's why she was charged.

COSTELLO: So, Matthew, I want to ask you about that. So the officer beside her had a taser. So why didn't he use his taser, A? I mean, we don't know exactly what went down at the scene or the timing of everything. But in your mind, what happened here?

HORACE: Well, that goes into, like, officer's state of mind. You know, the two of us could be looking at one situation, very uniquely differently. You could feel like it's totally within your control to take control of it. I could be fearful. But irregardless, this was not a situation where even intermediate use of force was necessary.

There were two officers there, four officers there, they were six to eight feet away and did not see a weapon. I've been in this situation hundreds of times and I don't know how you get to a point. The only thing I could think of is that her gun was drawn and if her finger was on that trigger, right, we're taught, don't draw your gun unless you intend to use it and don't point it unless you intend to shoot it. And when that happens, if you have that finger on that trigger, anything could happen in a moment of emotion.

COSTELLO: So, Laura, the family thinks that this charge, this misdemeanor charge is not enough. He should be charged -- she should be charged with murder.

COATES: Well, it is a felony charge, not a misdemeanor. So we have a strong charge. You don't have first-degree homicide that they want to look for, but you have a manslaughter charge. But this, in Oklahoma, in particular, you've got a pattern of the prosecutors bringing charges against police officers and being successful. You have Daniel Holtzclaw convicted. And in Tulsa alone, just a year ago, you had a volunteer Officer Bates, who was convicted of a similar charge, when he mistook his taser -- a gun for a taser.

HORACE: Right.

COATES: And so you have a pattern of success in Tulsa, alone. The fact that it wasn't a higher charge is, I think, in deference to the officers to know, she didn't premeditate a homicide the way that somebody may have if they were trying to do a murder for hire, et cetera. What she did was act unreasonably. And that is covered in that -- in that manslaughter charge. But they could always plea down one less to kind of a catch-all exception, as well.

COSTELLO: Laura Coates, Matthew Horace, thanks to both of you.

COATES: Thank you, Carol.

HORACE: Thank you.

COSTELLO: Appreciate it.

Still to come in NEWSROOM, style or substance. Which will be the winning strategy at Monday's big presidential debate? We'll talk about that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:27:32] COSTELLO: And good morning. I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me.

The Super Bowl of politics just three days away now. Hillary Clinton versus Donald Trump in an audience of, oh, maybe 100 million people? Wow.

Hillary Clinton has postponed her campaign to study up for the debate. Mr. Trump opted out of an Ohio campaign stop to prep himself. But he still wonders if Clinton is really using all that time to prep?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have been all over the country. You probably know this, right? Where is Hillary today? Well, they say she's been practicing for the debate. Some people think she's sleeping.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Clinton's supporter, Mark Cuban, will be in the audience, trolling for Clinton. He tweeted this, quote, "Just got a front row seat to watch Hillary Clinton overwhelm Donald Trump at the humbling of Hofstra on Monday. It is on."

And it will be on, on Monday. So let's talk about it now. With me now is Washington correspondent for "The Daily Beast" and CNN analyst, Jackie Kucinich, and Todd Graham, debate director from Southern Illinois University.

Welcome to both of you.

JACKIE KUCINICH, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Thank you.

COSTELLO: Let's start, Jackie, with Mark Cuban because could he really troll Trump from the audience and could that actually play in Clinton's favor?

KUCINICH: I mean, Mark Cuban's going to Mark Cuban, you know? I mean, he could. I'm sure he's going to be tweeting throughout, but I think the biggest challenge for Donald Trump is going to be Hillary Clinton that night and the moderator, for that matter. He's probably not going to go into the nitty-gritty of facts, but it seems like he's going to -- there was a great "New York Times" layout this morning and it says that he was going to try to remain positive and push his message to keep calm and look presidential.

And that is the goal for Donald Trump. But I don't know that Mark Cuban is going to throw him off his game all that much.

COSTELLO: I don't know. It'll just -- you know, I ran into someone this morning who says that he's, like, calling off work and taking a vacation day so he can sit down and watch this debate. Because I think everybody wants to see Donald Trump hurl insults, right? And so let's get down to business with the insult thing, Todd.

Trump is quite adept at hurling those insults, and lest we forget, I'll remind you. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEB BUSH (R), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is a tough business --

TRUMP: Oh, I know, you're a tough guy, Jeb, I know.

BUSH: And we need to have a leader that is --

TRUMP: Real tough.

BUSH: You're never going to be president of the United States by insulting your way to the presidency.

TRUMP: You're real tough. Yes? Well, let's see, I'm at 42 you're at 3, so, so far I'm doing better.

BUSH: Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter.

TRUMP: Am I talking or are you talking, Jeb?

BUSH: I'm talking right now.

TRUMP: You can go back --

BUSH: I'm talking.

TRUMP: You can go back. You're not talking.

BUSH: I'm talking.

TRUMP: You interrupted me, Jeb.

BUSH: September 30th, you said.

TRUMP: Are you going to apologize, Jeb? No. Am I allowed to finish?

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, one at a time. Go ahead.

TRUMP: Excuse me. Am I allowed to finish?

BLITZER: Go ahead, Mr. Trump.

TRUMP: So, again --

BUSH: Little --