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Clinton, Trump Clash in First Debate; Fact-Checking Trump on Climate Change; Battle for the Undecided Voters; Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired September 27, 2016 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[10:00:26] CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: And good morning, I'm Carol Costello. Thanks so much for joining me.

Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton back on the campaign trail this morning. Both claiming victory in last night's presidential debate. Those smiles in the opening seconds didn't last. And the fangs did came out. Both candidates launching blistering insults and both accusing the other of hiding secrets from the American public.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I will release my tax returns, against my lawyer's wishes, when she releases her 33,000 e- mails that have been deleted. As soon as she releases them, I will release -- I will release my tax returns.

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Maybe he's not as rich as he says he is. Second, maybe he's not as charitable as he claims to be. Third, we don't know all of his business dealings, but we have been told through investigative reporting that he owes about $650 million to Wall Street and foreign banks, or maybe he doesn't want the American people, all of you watching tonight, to know that he's paid nothing in federal taxes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: This morning, Mr. Trump also criticizing the debate's moderator saying Lester Holt only lobbed softball questions to Hillary Clinton.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Well, he didn't ask her about the e-mails at all. He didn't ask her about her scandals. He didn't ask her about the Benghazi deal that she destroyed. He didn't ask her about a lot of things that she should have been asked about. I mean, you know, there's no question about it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: A lot to cover this morning. Let's begin with CNN's Phil Mattingly. He has the highlights and the low lights.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, definitely a lot of both in the 97 minutes we witnessed last night. Look, there was a clear issue that both candidates wanted to hit when they got on that debate stage. For Hillary Clinton, it was to try and make clear she was the most prepared, she was the most ready for the Oval Office. For Donald Trump, it was to make clear that he was the change agent. He was going to be the one that changed the status quo inside Washington, and both candidates clearly had their positive moments.

Donald Trump registering strong numbers on trade. Registering clear hits, attacking Clinton for her history. But Hillary Clinton, able to kind of pin Donald Trump into a corner with a question that she didn't even ask -- on Donald Trump's years long attempt to attack President Obama's birthplace. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I think I did a great job and a great service not only for the country but even for the president in getting him to produce his birth certificate.

LESTER HOLT, DEBATE MODERATOR: Secretary Clinton.

CLINTON: Do we try to put the whole racist birther lie to bed? But it can't be dismissed that easily. So he has a long record of engaging in racist behavior. And the birther lie was a very hurtful one.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: Now, Carol, I don't know that if we've ever heard anything like that on the debate stage. Obviously the back and forth was so intense that you could have overlooked the fact that a major party candidate was calling another major party candidate responsible for racist behavior. That is a very, very big deal. But Donald Trump, as I noted, had big moments in the debate and attempted to attack Hillary Clinton on something we've heard repeatedly on the campaign trail, her stamina. Clinton firing back. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I don't believe that Hillary has the stamina.

CLINTON: As soon as he travels to 112 countries and negotiates a peace deal, a cease-fire, a release of dissidents, and opening of new opportunities in nations around the world, or even spends 11 hours testifying in front of a congressional committee, he can talk to me about stamina.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: The rebuttal there from Secretary Clinton. Look, both candidates trying to spin this as a victory as all campaigns always do in the wake of the debates. But what will be interesting to see in the days and weeks ahead.

Carol, there are some crucial issues that are major components of Donald Trump's campaign that weren't even mentioned last night. Now you heard him complain that that was because of the moderator. But when you talk to Republicans who are familiar with how debates actually work, it's up to the candidates often to bring those issues up.

So there are two debates left. It's almost certain issues like the Clinton Foundation or Benghazi, or Hillary Clinton's e-mails to a more kind of extensive way of looking at it will be issues that he brings up. In the meantime, it's all about the swing states.

Once again, Carol, Hillary Clinton in North Carolina. Donald Trump in Florida today. Those are crucial states for both of them if they want to win on November 8th. That will be the issue going forward. No question about it.

COSTELLO: And both candidates having the stamina to do that this morning.

(LAUGHTER)

[10:05:03] COSTELLO: Phil Mattingly, thanks so much.

And with the first one-on-one with Hillary Clinton behind him, Trump is already looking ahead to their next face-off which is less than two weeks away. And he gave his buddies at "FOX and Friends" a preview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Well, I may hit her harder in certain ways. I -- you know, I really eased up because I didn't want to hurt anybody's feelings. But I may hit her harder in certain ways. I think that -- I don't know if it's the same forum. But if it's a similar forum. I had a problem with a microphone that didn't work. I don't know if you saw that in the room but my microphone was terrible. I think I wonder was it set up that way on purpose. My microphone, in the room, they couldn't hear me. You know, it was going on and off.

STEVE DOOCY, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Wow.

TRUMP: Which isn't exactly great. I wonder if it was set up that way. But it was -- it was terrible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: OK, so let's talk about this. Jackie Kucinich is with me. She's the Washington bureau chief for "The Daily Beast." Michael Warren is here. He's a staff writer for the "Weekly Standard." David Swerdlick joins me, too. He's assistant editor for "The Washington Post" and Todd Graham is the debate director for Southern Illinois Carbondale.

Welcome to all of you. So, Todd, big, big huge picture. You hear Mr. Trump saying, you know what, I had a bad microphone. Like Lester Holt threw me really awful questions. Who won this debate?

TODD GRAHAM, DEBATE DIRECTOR, SOUTHERN ILLINOIS UNIVERSITY CARBONDALE: Well, I think it was pretty easy who lost this debate. Donald Trump had a very, very bad night. So when I graded him today on my CNN.com piece, Donald Trump got an F.

COSTELLO: Why so? Why did you give him an F?

GRAHAM: Well, mean, there's two aspects to every debate. There's content and delivery. I didn't think he came through on either. As far as his sort of delivery, well, he started with a frowns and growls, and that was on the first answer from Hillary Clinton. And it just went from there to his interrupting her constantly, over and over and over again. And frankly, it was rude and annoying. It was just too much.

As for his content, well, he rambled quite a bit during most of his answers and it was hard to follow his train of thoughts. And then he just had some flat-out bad answers during the debate.

COSTELLO: Well, you know, optics I think really matter in debates and, Jackie, a lot of people noticed that Donald Trump was sniffling a lot last night. And he was drinking a lot of water. So I'm just going to give our viewers an example of that, watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Hundreds and hundreds of companies are doing this. Is that OK? Good. We used certain laws that are there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: So, Jackie, again, on "FOX and Friends," this morning he tried to explain his sniffles away. Here's what he told them.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DOOCY: What's the deal with the sniffles? You know, I heard you in I think the first answer, it sounded like you had seasonal allergies or a little cold. What's up with that?

TRUMP: No, no sniffles, no. You know, the mic was very bad but maybe it was good enough to hear breathing. But there was no sniffles. I don't have --

DOOCY: So you don't have a cold?

TRUMP: I have no allergy. No. No cold.

DOOCY: OK.

TRUMP: Every once in a while but no, no cold.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: So --

JACKIE KUCINICH, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Donald Trump never gets sick, Carol, ever.

(LAUGHTER) COSTELLO: I don't know if I thought he had a cold or, you know, the drinking water, like that seemed like a nervous tick to me.

KUCINICH: It seemed like -- I mean, you know, I don't know this to be a fact but it seemed to happen when he was getting irritated so maybe it was a way that, you know, a debate coach told him to cool down and pick up the water, take a drink.

COSTELLO: I get it. Drink water.

KUCINICH: Get a drink of water. I don't know that but it seemed to be about the time that he was -- he may have been getting irritated. But, you know, if this is Hillary Clinton and cough, we'll be having another discussion entirely. But it -- it is strange that he was --

COSTELLO: No, no. No, let's pause right there because you said something.

KUCINICH: Yes. Right.

COSTELLO: I think most of my Democrats friends said their biggest fear during last night's debate was if Hillary Clinton would have a coughing attack.

MICHAEL WARREN, ONLINE EDITOR, WEEKLY STANDARD: And she didn't. And I guess she met and exceeded expectations, right?

COSTELLO: She never took a sip of water either.

WARREN: But, look, I mean, look, it's a fact of the race that there are two different standards for Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton. It's just because Donald Trump is such a force on TV and such a unique and sort of almost bizarre candidate. So he's going to get judged on a different level. But I think it's more important -- you know besides the TV theatrics to focus on why last night was somewhat of a failure. I wouldn't give him an F necessarily but he -- the fact is that Trump got off message.

KUCINICH: Right.

WARREN: And Hillary Clinton was able to get under his skin enough to get him off message. At the very beginning, those first 15 minutes when he was talking about trade and really going hard against Hillary Clinton I thought were some of best 15 minutes of his entire campaign. It was only when she sort of started to go after him on really kind of a personal level that he lost it, started sniffing a little bit, and then everything went downhill from there.

COSTELLO: So, David, do you think the next debate will be different?

DAVID SWERDLICK, ASSISTANT EDITOR, THE WASHINGTON POST: Carol, I think the next debate will be sort of more illustrative, will tell us a little more about what we learned in this debate tonight. I think Clinton clearly won. But I -- you know, she won on points. She was the more comfortable, the more prepared and the more upbeat even. But I don't think she landed any knockout blows or even knocked down blows.

[10:10:02] So I'd like to see in the next debate whether this means that this is part of her strategy to just sort of needle him, to get him as we were just saying a moment ago off message, just to maintain this lead that she has and not let him sort of move forward in the discussion, in this one-on-one debate, or if it was simply the case that she, too, was playing it safe and just by the mere fact that she was more prepared she did better than him.

Just to go back to the sniffles, for what it's worth, my theory is also, like Jackie said, that it was a little bit of nerves because I saw it go away as the debate kind of wound up.

COSTELLO: Yes. So let's talk about over preparing and being scripted because at times Hillary Clinton did seem that way. And that was brought up during the debate. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: I think Donald just criticized me for preparing for this debate. And yes, I did. You know what else I prepared for? I prepared to be president. And I think that's a good thing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: So, Todd, obviously, that was a line that Hillary Clinton could not wait to deliver. She also had another catchy phrase, what was it? Trickle down Trump economics, something like that.

GRAHAM: Trumped up trickle down.

COSTELLO: Thank you very much.

WARREN: Next pop hit.

COSTELLO: Next pop hit. So, Todd, how would you grade Hillary Clinton?

GRAHAM: Well, as far as like her persona on stage, I kind of rated it as B minus because you're right, she was prepared. And she was so prepared in fact that I think she forgot the key ingredient that I always say. She needs to bring a conversational quality. And so she needs to seem a little bit more human.

My example of where that went a little bit wrong is frankly you wouldn't act like that nor would I if we were being interrupted as much as she was. Not once did she stop -- and it's just natural for you to stop and just look at the other person and just -- I wanted her one time to look at Donald Trump and say stop interrupting me because you would do that and I would do that. And so that's kind of the steady as she goes Clinton.

It works for her because, you know, it's fine and it keeps her emotions at a steady pace. But sometimes steady as you go isn't appropriate and I think she should have called him out. COSTELLO: But I will say this, Jackie, and I've heard from many of my

women friends who have high-powered jobs. They despise being interrupted in the boardroom and they really noticed those interruptions and those interruptions bothered them.

KUCINICH: Well, right. I mean, it is seen as disrespectful. But I think it can go both ways. If Hillary Clinton was constantly interrupting Donald Trump, it would -- she would look bad as well. It just looked disruptive. He wouldn't let her talk at some point because he was so desperate to either get a catchphrase or a one-liner or something in, and it wasn't even really substantive. He was just -- he was just interrupting her. And so I don't think that -- I don't think he looked very good for that.

WARREN: And the returns on the interruptions weren't there.

KUCINICH: Exactly.

WARREN: I mean, she -- she didn't get rattled. She was sort of calm and cool. I think --

COSTELLO: Somebody told her to smile a lot.

WARREN: Exactly. But I think asking Hillary Clinton to, you know, be a little more human is probably a little more than she was able to give so I think sort of sticking to the script is about the best Hillary Clinton could do.

COSTELLO: So, David, what was the big takeaway in your mind about both candidates? About Donald Trump? Was it about his taxes? About Hillary Clinton? Was it about, I don't know, her answer to the e-mail controversy?

SWERDLICK: Well, in one sense, the takeaway, and again this goes to what comes in the second and third debate, is that we didn't fully drill down on either candidate, I don't think, on the things that hurt them the most. Clinton did a fairly effective job of pressing Donald Trump on the birther issue, saying, as Phil reported at the top, right, that she called it a perpetuation of I think a racist lie, and then she also said -- described his racist behavior. Never going quite as far as describing him as a racist which I think is smart.

But, you know, Donald Trump has managed to get this far by perpetuating his own narrative which is that he was doing the country a service. I don't think people bought it. It was reflected in the CNN-ORC overnight poll that showed 62 percent of people said that she won the debate, but I still feel like she did not press him hard enough and she didn't turn the birther issue into an opportunity to discuss how people in the country, how different races, different cultures, can come together. She starts prosecuting the case against him.

In Trump's case, he did not do a good job at all pressing her on the e-mails. It was almost a repeat of Senator Sanders letting her off the hook in the first Democratic debate. I was surprised by that. COSTELLO: All right. We'll see what happens next time. Jackie

Kucinich, Todd Graham, Michael Warren, David Swerdlick, thanks to all of you.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, keeping the candidates honest. Did Donald Trump actually say that climate change is a Chinese hoax? The reality check next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:18:41] COSTELLO: Hillary Clinton comes up swinging against Donald Trump and his stance on climate change. During last night's debate, Clinton said Trump thinks it's all a hoax but Trump says Clinton's got it all wrong. So who's telling the truth?

Here's CNN Tom Foreman.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hillary Clinton doesn't think much of Donald Trump's views on global warming. Listen.

CLINTON: Donald thinks that climate change is a hoax perpetrated by the Chinese. I think it's real.

TRUMP: I did not. I didn't.

CLINTON: The science is real.

TRUMP: I do not say that. I do not say that.

CLINTON: And I think it's important we grip this and deal with it both at home and abroad.

FOREMAN: So she says he did, he says he didn't. Problem with Twitter is it leaves a record. And he has tweeted many times that he thinks that global warming is a hoax and back in 2012 he quite specifically said the concept of global warming was created by and for the Chinese in order to make U.S. manufacturing non-competitive. There it is in black and white. And that makes her statement about this true.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO: All right. So earlier today, Trump's running mate Mike Pence weighed in on Trump's performance. He seemed to differ with Mr. Trump. We're going to bring that sound up for you momentarily.

But let's bring in back in our political panel, Jackie Kucinich, David Swerdlick, Michael Warren, and Todd Graham.

Welcome back to all of you. So --

(LAUGHTER)

[10:20:01] COSTELLO: So I don't know. What do you make of this, Jackie, this climate change issue? Because Kellyanne Conway was on "NEW DAY" this morning and she said that Donald Trump believes that climate change is a naturally occurring phenomenon. But you heard what, you know, Tom Foreman said that Donald Trump said it was a hoax perpetrated by the Chinese.

KUCINICH: This seems to be another place where the Trump campaign is assembling the plane as it's flying. I don't know that Donald Trump really had a real heartfelt position on climate change before he started running for president. He may have -- I mean, and he just kind of speaks off the cuff or tweets off the cuff and I think that's what we saw in that China tweet. Well, that is obviously not acceptable or science, and what Kellyanne Conway is also disputable. But that said, you know, that's a little bit closer to something that normal people hold rather than it's all a hoax.

COSTELLO: And of course young voters, climate change really resonates with young voters.

KUCINICH: Of course.

COSTELLO: Right? So I was mentioning before that Mike Pence came out and seemed to have a different opinion of climate change than Kellyanne Conway said Donald Trump had of climate change so let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. MIKE PENCE (R), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: There's no question that the activities that take place in this country and in countries around the world have some impact on the environment and some impact on climate. But Donald Trump and I say let's follow the science but for heaven's sakes let's not go rushing into the kind of restrictions on our economy that are putting Americans out of work, and frankly are driving jobs out of this country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: OK, so is Mike Pence saying that man does have something to do with climate change there but we should just ignore it?

WARREN: Now, look, there is actually a nuanced position. I think conservatives and people were skeptical of the sort of Democratic progressive line on climate change and what to do about it. That conservatives take. The problem is that Donald Trump completely blasts those arguments out the water because he doesn't really have an informed opinion about it. He doesn't really have any nuanced thoughts on what to do, you know, that maybe some measures might be a little too anti-growth to really deal with it or to even have a real impact. So what you see there is Mike Pence trying to navigate some type of --

COSTELLO: Right. Because it boils down --

(CROSSTALK)

WARREN: A world that doesn't exist anymore.

COSTELLO: Right. Because it all boils down to politics, and specifically I'm talking about the coal industry, right, David?

SWERDLICK: Yes, look, when I hear Kellyanne Conway say naturally occurring phenomenon, those to me are wiggle words. They're trying to figure out as Jackie said in midstride how to appeal both to the Republican base and to moderate voters that now 40 days out from the election they need to appeal to. When I hear Pence trying to find that nuanced position, I think Pence is thinking ahead to the 2020 Republican primary for president.

Look, Donald Trump has had to take some positions that are Republican orthodoxy or have been in recent years Republican orthodoxy to offset some of these other positions where he's differed from the Republican establishment and this is one of them and at least for last night he was sort trapped in it.

COSTELLO: So, Todd, I mean, do most voters really care about climate change? Are we just talking about this and people's eyes are glazing over?

GRAHAM: Yes, we care. No, our eyes aren't glazing over. Climate change is real.

COSTELLO: I have to ask.

GRAHAM: The science is out there. I mean, I mean, come on, it's the 21st century. And we're way behind. We just had 180 countries sign the Paris accords. We need to act on this and everyone knows it except for a small portion of Americans who are conservative, but not just conservative, but ultraconservative and they don't -- they're not even honest about why.

Now Donald Trump's problem isn't that one tweet. He's consistently said he doesn't believe in climate change or that it's human induced. And so yes, it's a real thing. And you can't win a presidential debate by denying it.

WARREN: Can I -- can I just say that I disagree strongly with that, that Americans really care about this. It's pretty low on the list of issues that people care about. I actually think in a weird way this is a winning issue for Donald Trump because the sort of preoccupation that a lot of Democrats and frankly a lot of the folks in the media have with climate change as an issue seems really out of touch with, you know, terrorism, crime in the streets, the concerns about the police, and all these things that we're seeing as big issues.

The problems of climate change I think have really gone down in the minds of voters and I don't think it will have that big of an impact.

COSTELLO: All right. I have to leave there. Jackie Kucinich, Todd Graham, Michael Warren, David Swerdlick, thanks to all of you.

Coming up in the NEWSROOM, the undecided, you know, those voters who have not made up their mind. Did last night's debate change that?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:24:07] COSTELLO: And good morning, I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me.

Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump are neck-and-neck and with early voting starting for many this week, last night's debate offered a pivotal moment for each candidate to win over that undecided voter. So were voters swayed?

CNN's Pamela Brown caught up with such voters in Florida.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Let's get a show of hands. After this debate, who now knows who they're going to vote for? Is that Hillary Clinton? Anyone for Donald Trump? Anyone who's still undecided? Still has no idea who they're going to vote for come November?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: OK, so let's talk about that. With me now is John Philips, CNN political commentator and Trump supporter, and Jennifer Granholm, former Michigan governor and Hillary Clinton supporter.

Welcome to both of you.

JENNIFER GRANHOLM, CLINTON SUPPORTER: Thank you, Carol.

JOHN PHILIPS, TRUMP SUPPORTER: Thank you.

COSTELLO: OK. First off, I want to start with Jennifer because she was inside that debate hall and first of all, what was it like inside? Because the audience wasn't supposed to react but it did every so often.