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Awaiting Donald Trump at Rally in Florida; Trump Arriving at First Rally Since Debate; CNN Fact-Checks the First Debate; Expert: Clinton Got Under Trump's Skin Within First 12 Minutes; Trump Doubles Down on Criticizing Ex-Miss Universe's Weight. Aired 7-8p ET

Aired September 27, 2016 - 19:00   ET


[19:00:10] ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: OUTFRONT next, the breaking news. Donald Trump about to take the stage, his first rally since facing off with Hillary Clinton, this as he doubles down on attacking a beauty queen's weight.

Plus, Clinton says, Trump paid nothing in federal income taxes. Is that true?

And the many faces of Trump and Clinton during the debate. Literally the faces. Our body language expert with the verdict. Let's go OUTFRONT.

And good evening, I'm Erin Burnett. OUTFRONT tonight, the breaking news. Donald Trump is about to take the stage in Melbourne, Florida. We are waiting first plane to land that rally. As you can see, lightning and bad weather in the area delaying his rival a little bit. This is his first rally since last night's contentious debate with Hillary Clinton. The most watched debate in American history. Trump today claiming victory on Twitter but sounding more subdued in a town hall this afternoon.


DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: It was an interesting evening, certainly. And big league. Definitely big league.


BURNETT: The Republican nominee also throwing around some blame.


TRUMP: I had a problem with a microphone that didn't work. I don't know if you saw that in the room but my microphone was terrible. I think -- I wonder was it set up that way on purpose.


BURNETT: Meanwhile Hillary Clinton is sounding mighty pleased with her debate performance.


HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Did anybody see that debate last night? Oh, yes! One down, two to go.


BURNETT: Sara Murray is OUTFRONT at that Trump rally in Melbourne, Florida. And Sara, Trump is going to take the stage at any minute. I know there is a little bit of bad weather. But going to take the stage. All eyes will be on him, including ours. Will he talk about the debate?

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Erin. We are absolutely expecting him to talk about the debate and where he may have missed a couple of opportunities to take Hillary Clinton to task last night. He is certainly trying off to lead anything less untouched tonight. We're expecting him to go after Clinton on her e- mails, on trade, on foreign policy. But really the broader framework here is he's going to come out and make the argument that she is the candidate of yesterday. That he is the candidate of the future.

He's going point out that she's been in politics for 30 years and say that only thing that she has to point to is a failed record. Now, Erin, I think the other interesting thing to watch for tonight is we are expecting Donald Trump to come out here and send his support for stop and frisk. We're actually expecting him to say that this is the kind of policy that could save African-American and Hispanic lives.

And of course, in New York it was actually ruled unconstitutional because it disproportionately targeted minorities and constituents. But Trump is fairly is not backing down from his support for this policy and we should hear a little bit more about that. And like you said, we are still expecting Trump any minute now although there is a little bit of thunder and lightning happening here in Florida but we'll keep you posted.

BURNETT: All right. Sara, we'll be waiting for that any moment. Now, the big question of course is what is the fall-out of the debate for the two campaigns. Brianna Keilar is OUTFRONT.


BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Hillary Clinton all smiles after her first debate showdown with Donald Trump.

CLINTON: Did anybody see that debate last night? One down, two to go.

KEILAR: Jabbing at her rival today at a rally in North Carolina for his criticism that she was over prepared.

CLINTON: He made it very clear that he didn't prepare for that debate. You know, at one point he was kind of digging me for spending time off the campaign trail to get prepared but just trying to keep track of everything he says took a lot of time and effort.

I think it is real.

TRUMP: I do --

CLINTON: Science is real.

TRUMP: I do not said --

CLINTON: And I think it is important that we --

KEILAR: The Clinton campaign thinks Trump's constant interruptions of Clinton won't go over well with women and reinforce his attacks on his temperament.

TRUMP: The AFL-CIO the other day. Behind the blue screen. I don't know who you were talking to Secretary Clinton but you were totally out of control. I said there is a person with a temperament that's got a problem.


CLINTON: Whew, okay.

KEILAR: Clinton also went after Trump the former owner of the Miss Universe pageant for criticizing the weight of one winner.

CLINTON: And one of the worst things he said was about a woman in a beauty contest. He called this woman Miss Piggy. Then he called her Miss Housekeeping because she was Latina. Donald, she has name. Her name is Alicia Machado.

TRUMP: Where did you --

CLINTON: And she has become a U.S. citizen and you can bet she's going vote this November.

TRUMP: Oh, really? OK. Good.

KEILAR: A Trump spokesperson says, Machado's claims are unsubstantiated but Trump refused to back away from his comments today.

TRUMP: She gained a massive amount of weight. And it was a problem.

[19:05:10] KEILAR: Trump did land lows on the issues of trade, where Clinton's ardent support of the Trans Pacific Partnership as secretary of state despite her reversal as a candidate has been a vulnerability in Rust Belt battleground states.

TRUMP: You called it the gold standard. You called it the gold standard of trade deals. You said it is the finest deal you have ever seen.


TRUMP: And then you heard what I said about it and all of a sudden you were against it.

CLINTON: Well Donald, I know you live in your own reality but that is not the facts. The facts are -- I did say I hoped it would be a good deal.


KEILAR: Now that Erin is not true. Hillary Clinton as Secretary of State never said that her support for the TPP, the trade pact was contingent on the final negotiation, on the final details that came out of that. She was actually as you will recall effusive as secretary of state for her support for that trade pact, talking about it in glowing terms dozens of times.

BURNETT: All right. Thank you very much, Brianna.

And OUTFRONT now David Gergen who served as advisor to four presidents, Reagan and Clinton among them. Mark Preston, our executive editor at Politics. Dana Bash, chief political correspondent along with Clinton supporter Basil Smikle, executive director of The New York State Democratic Party. Trump supporter Jeffrey Lord who of course was the White House political director for Ronald Reagan. And Maeve Reston, our national political reporter.

David, let me start with you. Did last night change anyone's mind?

DAVID GERGEN, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL ADVISER: We don't know yet. We'll have to wait and see the polls. But I'll tell you what did do is change the dynamics of this campaign. As much as we can argue about who won last night, there is no question that Hillary Clinton's team has taken control of this campaign today. He had a bad night last night. He's had a terrible day after. I just want to read you, on the "New York Times" lead website tonight after saying what he did earlier this morning, attacked the moderator.

Said his microphone are not working. Headlines. Shamed and angry. And Alicia Machado, a Miss Universe mocked by Donald Trump. Suburban women find little to like on Donald Trump's debate performance. What Donald Trump got wrong on stop and frisk. The reverse gas lighting of Donald Trump. I grant you that they have hardly been appreciative of Donald Trump in recent weeks but still --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He has been out today sounding senior defensive.


BURNETT: And what is your response after this. Because you know what, you could spin it either way but he has been out today sounding very defensive.

JEFFREY LORD, DONALD TRUMP SUPPORTER: Let me talk about the Miss Universe contestant. I'm reading now from the London Daily Mail. And if I may return paragraph to paragraph, but now two associative press reports from 1998 have revealed that Machado was accused of aiding an attempted murder and threats to kill in Venezuela. The has asked the Clinton campaign whether they knew about the accusations. Et cetera. Et cetera. Et cetera. So in other words, her credibility is now under attack. What specifically, I want to say this -- BURNETT: I will just simply point out for the record. None of that

is confirmed anything by CNN. Just because I need to do that. Just pointing that out. But go ahead, finish your point. Yes.

LORD: I understand. Okay. My point is, that the whatever he called her there is hearsay. Yes?


LORD: No, no, no. Let me finish my point. So if we're going to deal in that kind of hearsay, I would hope and I suspect that the Trump campaign would be on the ball with this Gary Burn, the Secret Service agent who wrote this book "Crisis of Character" and has chapter and verse in there about Hillary Clinton's temperament and her conduct as first lady. So, I mean, in other words, sauce for the goose is going to be sauce for the gander here.

BASIL SMIKLE, HILLARY CLINTON SUPPORTER: But seriously. Here -- hearsay aside. The fact of the matter is that Donald Trump last night. First impressions matter.

BURNETT: He has by the way landed in Florida. Bad weather but he is there and he is going to speaking momentarily. We are going to listen to him. We'll listen to Hillary Clinton earlier but we'll see when he gets off that plane. Go ahead, Basil.

SMIKLE: First impressions matter and for the number of people that saw last night, I don't know how many will see the second debate. But the fact of the matter is, he looked like he didn't know what he was talking about. He looked unprepared. He looked unknowledgeable about public policy and how government works and that is a problem when you are running for president of the United States.

She was prepared. She spoke to the American people and had specific policy descriptions for how she would move people to the middle class. She was presidential last night. And that matters.

BURNETT: So, Dana, what is the Trump campaign -- you have got sources that are telling you about what they are thinking right now. What their plans are? What are you hearing?

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I was just going to say, certainly there are a lot of things to discussed that are of specific moments and the aftermath and the aftershocks about last night. But I think the most telling are the conversations that you have privately with people who really, really like Donald Trump and wanted him to do well. And that is that they were incredibly disappointed, some were frustrated. Because yes he did not have the formal training that -- and the debate camp than Hillary Clinton had with the mock debates and somebody playing her.


BASH: But he was prepared. I mean, he was preparing. And he was given, you know, sort of cleaned, simple talking points for some of the big issues. They went over pivots, which apparently I'm told he does not like that term.


Right. But it is the way to get away from when Hillary Clinton is going after you to move to something that is more on offense towards her. And so the frustration is really palpable. The hope, I talked to one person I think who put it beautifully. Is that Donald Trump is the kind of person who you can't say, don't touch that stove. It is hot. You have to wait until he actually touches the stove and say, oh, it's really hot, until he says, oh, I won't do it again.

BURNETT: So now it's going to take --

BASH: Meaning, they're hoping he's going to change --

[19:10:47] MARK PRESTON, CNN POLITICS EXECUTIVE EDITOR: We have to go back to the disagreement between David and Jeffrey, who are good friends of ours. OK? Putting aside what Jeffrey said is she's accused of. That has nothing to do with Donald Trump saying that she was Miss Piggy and then doubling down this morning on FOX News and saying, oh, she got really fat. She got really overweight. That has nothing to do with that.

BURNETT: And to that point Jeff, isn't that an implicit admission that he said Miss Piggy. He didn't say I didn't say it. He came out the next morning and said she did get fat.

LORD: Two things. Two things. Number one, whenever her contract. I mean, people online have contracts for all sorts of things. You are supposed to do what the contract is. If she were in violation of her contract by putting on weight, I don't know if that is the case. But if that is the case, then that is a contract violation. But the larger point I want to make here is - wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. The important thing here is the audience out there.

Not us and folks like us and all of our friends that we know all over the place in Washington, D.C. and elsewhere. But people in their living rooms watching this. The people who were thinking about the country. And for those people, I'm thinking that he scored a hit. When he talked to her and addressed her as a politician, who basically comes out. I mean, all the things that we think are an asset. She was poised. She was this. She was that. There are a lot of people out there that are saying, she's just more of the same and this is the problem.


MAEVE RESTON, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER: But I don't think, I mean, I just found Donald Trump's strategy of doubling down as Mark said, totally baffling this morning. I mean, it was, for him to not see that that has been the kind of behavior that has gotten him in trouble over and over again throughout the campaign and try to pivot away from it. It just shows you sort of how stock in his ways. And no matter what his advisors ask him to do, he just can't restrain himself. And by the way, I mean, a lot of those comments about Machado are on tape. So people just look at the tape and they are going to judge for themselves.

BURNETT: All right. We'll just hit pause for a moment. You will all agree with me because I am still waiting for Donald Trump to get off that plane. He's going to be speaking first rally since last night. Going talk about the debate.

And next, that and of course Trump and Clinton in their words coming back to haunt them.

Plus, did Clinton bait Trump into admitting he didn't pay federal taxes or not. And the debate was nothing to sniff at, or was it?


TRUMP: We wish you a lot of luck. You're wrong. Mexico said, OK, good.



[19:16:32] BURNETT: And the breaking news. Donald Trump as you can see on the podium in Melbourne, Florida. Let's listen in. This is his first speech since last night's debate.

TRUMP: We have 12,000 people outside. It's incredible. They're coming in. Look at this. Oh, we are going win Florida so big. Going to be amazing. This is a movement like they have never seen before. Never. Last night was very exciting. And almost every single poll had us winning the debate against crooked Hillary Clinton big league. Big league.


She as crooked as they come. And I'll tell you why. Check out. We put them out today. Almost every poll. So that was an exciting evening for me, folks. That was an exciting evening. And it set the all-time record for debates and maybe television, who knows. Look at this crowd. Look at this. This is amazing. Unbelievable.




I'll tell you what. Is there any place more fun or safer to be at than a Trump rally? Right?


We're going take on the special interests, the lobbyists and the corrupt corporate media right back there. They are corrupt as you can get.

(CROWD BOOING) You know, the single weapon that Hillary Clinton has -- I mean she couldn't even pass her bar exam in Washington, D.C. She failed it. The single weapon that she's got is the media. Without the mainstream media, she wouldn't even be here, folks. That I can tell you. She wouldn't even be here. She wouldn't have a chance. So we're going to create a new government that serves you, your family, and your country. And it is going to be the kind of government that you've been looking for for a long time.


You know, I was in the plane. And I came in. And we said, wow. But we do have these crowds elsewhere. But they said the fire marshal closed us down. Won't let 12,000 people in. But then when I looked at this, I said, now I understand. Where is the fire marshal? Fire marshal, let them in, please. Ok? Let them in. Let them in fire marshal. Let them in.

Our country is filled with so many amazing people. People who lift us up and inspire us. And by the way I have one of them here. Where is Rudy Giuliani? Rudy?


We love, Rudy. Look at him. Look at him. He's a good man. We lost one great person in a heartbreaking accident on Sunday. Marlins pitcher Jose Fernandez, and he was some pitcher. He died at the age of 24. I just spoke to Jeff, the owner of the team who is heartbroken. It is a huge loss for the state, for the entire sport of baseball and for all of the Americans who were so inspired watching him play at 24, just about as good a pitcher as there ever was at that age. So we send our deepest condolences to his wife and family during this very painful time. Our country also lost one of our truly great American icons. The king, the king, Arnold Palmer.

[19:21:28] BURNETT: All right. That's Donald Trump there. As we said, first rally since last night's debate.

Dana, obviously he's referring to online polls there. CNN polls shows completely the opposite, that he lost the debate. But this is the Donald Trump that we all know. He'll come out and cite whatever poll can find that will support that he is doing well. And that is what he does at these rallies.

BASH: I was talking to somebody who is close to him today who was noting that this is the Donald Trump where he is obviously in his comfort zone. He's feeding off the crowd. There are thousands of people there. He loves it. And it allows him to talk about the things he loves. The crowd size, the polls. Whether or not they are accurate or not. That is for a different story and it is so not his comfort zone to be in the kind of arena where he was last night. Where not only is it one on one but it is quiet. And he has to --

BURNETT: But you said you were talking to someone who knows him and how did they describe him? BASH: Like he was wandering through a wasteland last night because he

didn't know where to go or what to do because it was so not his bag frankly and he's got to practice it more.

GERGEN: Some speakers, especially like Trump for whom the audience responses is what energizes him. That's what makes him feel connected. And I can understand for him, it would be a jolt to walk, you know, from this adoring crowd that roars at almost everything he says into a room, it's like speaking into a library.


GERGEN: And you wonder if anybody is listening. It is just comforting. And that is one more reason by the way that make sense to practice which is I think the biggest mistake.

BURNETT: And also Jeffrey, something, when you talk about next time. It's going to be a town hall. Now, it is going to be a controlled setting.

LORD: Right. Right.

BURNETT: That could play to Hillary Clinton extremely well. She is going to be able to connect with people and show empathy. It of course is an opportunity for Donald Trump to try to get some sort of interaction with people that he feeds off of.

LORD: Right. I mean, it is a totally different environment. And I can think off hand in two of these events in presidential debate history. The one with Al Gore where he famously walk up on George Bush who apparently had been expecting this and just turned around and looked down and then laughed. And then the other one was Bill Clinton, with George H.W. Bush and somebody asked him a question and I forget the content but it was required some degree of empathy. And Clinton rose and off the stool went over and stood right in front of the person and looked him right in the eye. Good move. It is a whole different things that standing at two podiums and beating each other over the head.

RESTON: And that Bill Clinton moment though is also such an illustration of the political talent that Bill has that his wife does not. I mean, I don't think that necessarily the 40 percent town hall setting favors either of them. Because Hillary Clinton has had trouble sort of showing that warmer side and connecting and Donald Trump thrive in this much bigger crowds.

SMIKLE: I would tend to disagree. I've seen her in small settings. Particularly, you know, church settings and others where she's actually done incredibly, incredibly well. But I think the underlying point though is that when Donald Trump, when he cannot control the moment he spins out of control. And he's used to not being in this position. Debates are set up so people can prove that they can govern. And he's used to being your boss and not being able to sort of take the kind of criticism directly and openly that happens in a debate setting and I think that is one of the problems that he spins out of control and becomes incoherent. BURNETT: All right. So, we're going to take a pause.

Next, Hillary Clinton accusing Trump of not paying federal income taxes. OK. Is it true or is it not true? Some answers.

Plus, what did Clinton say that really seemed to get under Trump's skin the most? Well the answer actually may surprise you. We went through the tapes second by second. You will see it.


[19:29:07] BURNETT: The debate going down as the most watched presidential debate in American history so far. But as Trump and Clinton went after each other at times they stretched the truth and frankly lied.

Tom Foreman is OUTFRONT.


TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Amid new fears of rising crime, a controversial police tactic worked its way into the debate. Stopping people and frisking them for minor suspicions. Donald Trump all for it.

TRUMP: Worked very well in New York. It brought the crime rate way down.

FOREMAN: But Clinton knew the facts said otherwise. A spokesman for the Police Department tweeted, crime kept declining even after the practice was largely stopped. But murders down 80 percent since 1990. And with the federal judge having ruled against the tactic, Clinton hit Trump hard.

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Stop and frisk was found to be unconstitutional. And in part because it was in effective.

[19:30:00] FOREMAN: To be sure, Clinton weighed in into Deepwater at times two. At one point for example, insisting she never flip-flopped over the Trans Pacific trade deal.

TRUMP: You called it the gold standard of trade deals. You said it's the finest deal you've ever seen.


FOREMAN: She does not support it now. But listen to her back in 2012.

CLINTON: This TPP sets the gold standard of trade agreements to open, free, transparent fair trade.

FOREMAN: Still, Trump strayed from the facts more often.

On Iraq --

TRUMP: I did not support the war in Iraq.

FOREMAN: But listen to him with Howard Stern in 2002.

HOWARD STERN, RADIO HOST: Are you for invading Iraq?

TRUMP: Yeah, I guess so. You know, I wish it was -- I wish the first time it was done correctly.

FOREMAN: On women, Clinton insisted Trump is --

CLINTON: Someone who has said pregnancy is an inconvenience to employers --

TRUMP: I never said that.

CLINTON: -- who has said women --

FOREMAN: But he did in 2004.

TRUMP: The fact is it is an inconvenience for a person that is running a business.

FOREMAN: And on climate change.

CLINTON: Donald thinks that climate change is a hoax perpetrated by the Chinese. I think it's real. The science is real.

TRUMP: I did not. I did not say that.

FOREMAN: But there it is in a Trump tweet from 2012. Global warming is created by and for the Chinese.


FOREMAN: Although Trump took a worse beating from fact checkers following this debate. The question is how much does that matter? After all, polls have consistently shown voters don't really trust either one of them -- Erin.

BURNETT: All right. Thank you very much, Tom.

And another big issue when it came to the facts last night was whether Donald Trump pays federal taxes.

Hillary Clinton tonight stepping up her attacks that suggest Trump is bragging about gaming the system, and it all came after this exchange last night.


CLINTON: Maybe he doesn't want the American people, all of you watching tonight, to know that he's paid nothing in federal taxes, because the only years that anybody's ever seen were a couple of years when he had to turn them over to state authorities when he was trying to get a casino license, and they showed he didn't pay any federal income tax. TRUMP: That makes me smart.


BURNETT: All right. Was that just an admission there?

OUTFRONT now, Austan Goolsbee, former chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers for President Obama, and Peter Navarro, Donald Trump's policy adviser.

Peter, Hillary Clinton was wrong on one thing when she said Trump pays no federal taxes, but we really don't have very much data to go on, because all we know right now is there are eight years out there. They are very old. Trump paid no federal taxes for five of them and he did in three other years back in the 1970s, that's according to PolitiFact.

This is decades ago. So, the fact he didn't pay in some years opens up the door to Clinton being completely right about his current situation, doesn't it?

PETER NAVARRO, DONALD TRUMP'S POLICY ADVISER: Well, Erin, as soon as you go down that rabbit hole like Lester Holt did last night, I think what Donald Trump should and could have done was say, let's see the 33,000 e-mails but press that further. And that is what I would like to see.

And I would love to see a deal where Donald Trump cuts not just from the 33,000 e-mails from Hillary but for also the books for the Clinton Foundation, which is the most politically sophisticated --

BURNETT: Didn't he admit he didn't pay them? He said that's smart. He didn't say I do pay federal taxes. He said it's smart that I don't. That's the clear implication.

NAVARRO: Sure, and you can say that, what I'm going to do is what Donald Trump could have done is pivot right to the Clinton Foundation, the Clinton Global Initiative and all of the corruption of the most sophisticated political scandal we have had in America. We've got a sitting secretary of state and her husband running around the globe, collecting money, putting it in the Clinton Foundation --


BURNETT: The bottom line is -- you are saying it is OK he didn't answer the question -- Peter. Peter. I don't want to talk about those things. I want to talk about the taxes. That's what you're here to talk about right now. I'm not here to talk about the Clinton Foundation.

NAVARRO: Lester Holt wants to take him down that rabbit hole. This is the way you go.

BURNETT: OK, we're not talking about Clinton Foundation. We're talking about Trump's frankly deeply unsatisfactory answer to taxes.

NAVARRO: You are talking about the taxes. I'm talking about the --


BURNETT: That is why I invited you here to talk about was the taxes and economy. I don't want to be the one to argue with you. Let me let Austan take on his role and responsibility in this discussion.

Austan, obviously, what's your take on it?

AUSTAN GOOLSBEE, FORMER CHAIR, COUNCIL OF ECONOMIC ADVISERS FOR PRES. OBAMA: Look, I have two takes. One, you saw Donald Trump employ the same tactics that Peter's employing right now. He interrupted Hillary Clinton 26 times in the first 25 minutes. Usually, the reason you do that is you lack the content of something to say.

Hillary Clinton has released decades of her tax returns, as have all candidates running for president in modern presidential history.

NAVARRO: How about --

GOOLSBEE: And yet you hear Peter interrupting again what about the e- mails? What about the foundation --


GOOLSBEE: Hold on, Peter. Settle down.

BURNETT: Peter it is not a quid pro quo. We're talking about taxes right now. --

GOOLSBEE: The Donald Trump school of interrupting and making funny faces.

BURNETT: Peter, hold on. Hold on, Peter.

GOOLSBEE: Hold on Peter. You got to hold on. We ask our politicians to be accountable because we want to know that they don't have conflicts of interest that they don't engage in IRS tax wrong doing like the Trump Foundation did --

NAVARRO: Politicians accountable and you have Secretary of State Hillary Clinton in the most sophisticated pay-for-play scandal in American history --

GOOLSBEE: The Trump Foundation has been found guilty of wrongdoing, Peter, that's why he should turn over his tax returns.

NAVARRO: I love this, Austan. You have to most corrupt politician and her husband running around taking money all over the globe and then running appointments in the State Department, pay to play and you are sitting on your high horse talking about corruption.

BURNETT: Let me ask you. Clinton suggested Trump is not releasing his taxes because he's not as rich as he claims to be, his charitable or doesn't pay his taxes, right? You heard that one. But I remember when Harry Reid said Mitt Romney didn't pay his taxes

and he got everybody hot and bothered, we must know something. It casts a shadow on Mitt Romney. It was not true, OK? He just made it up, as far as it seems. Is it fair to raise these kind of questions if she doesn't have proof?

NAVARRO: You're asking me? I don't think so. I think what the American people want --

BURNETT: I was asking Austan.

GOOLSBEE: I think if there were no proof, it would not be fair. The fact we have multiple tax returns from Donald Trump's past in which he paid no taxes I think makes that a completely legitimate thing to ask.

The fact that we have -- he has been found, his foundation, guilty of wrong doing by the IRS and had to pay a fine raises the issue that let us see to make sure. He says that he's been audited every year. If you engage in wrongdoing, you get audited. That is not a reason not to turn over your tax returns. That is a reason the American people deserve to see what he has been engaging in.

NAVARRO: And I love this Erin. Like again Austan is on his high horse and Secretary Clinton with aides taking the Fifth Amendment -- the Fifth Amendment -- about this e-mail and he's on his high horse when Donald Trump has done nothing wrong.

GOOLSBEE: You are just changing the subject, Peter.

NAVARRO: Of course I'm changing --

GOOLSBEE: It is the Trump way.


BURNETT: Thanks to both of you. We'll take a brief break.

When we come back the moment in the debate where Trump lost his cool and started literally pointing his finger. Our body language expert is next.

Plus, did he really call her "Miss Piggy"? Trump's history with the former Miss Universe.


TRUMP: Some people when they have pressure don't eat. Some people when they have pressure eat too much. Like me. But like Alicia.



[19:42:08] BURNETT: Tonight, Donald Trump on defense after his performance of the debate last night. Earlier today, Clinton calling out Trump for his actions and his frequent interruptions. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: Well, I think his -- his demeanor, his temperament, his behavior on the stage could be seen by everybody and people can draw their own conclusions.


BURNETT: The post-debate poll says more than 60 percent of viewers believed Clinton beat Trump. Now, was it because of what they said, though, or their body language?

Miguel Marquez is OUTFRONT.




MARQUEZ (voice-over): From minute one, the first handshake, Donald Trump tried to dominate.

LOCASCIO: Donald Trump in this case took her hand and he touched her shoulder. It is demonstrating an aspect of control right from the beginning.

MARQUEZ: Anthony Locascio is a body language expert. We watched the debate in real time and got his on the fly impressions of how each candidate performed.

TRUMP: That is called business, by the way.

CLINTON: Nine million people.

LOCASCIO: So we just saw a disgust reaction from Donald Trump. OK? He's disagreeing.

MARQUEZ (on camera): So, we are nine minutes in.


MARQUEZ: And that is the first sign of him getting under her skin.

LOCASCIO: And create anxiety.

MARQUEZ (voice-over): In the first quarter hour, as Clinton hammered on Trump's privileged upbringing and his economic plan, the tone changed. Trump increasingly exhibit in body language his dislike and rejection of Clinton's views. Locascio says Trump overall is more emotional. His hand gestures projecting strength and confidence. His demeanor indicating he's trying to play offense.

LOCASCIO: Any time you are leaning in. That is again we have our survival instincts. Fight, flight, or freeze. Any time you lean in.

MARQUEZ (on camera): It's a fight I take it.

LOCASCIO: That's a fight symptom, OK?

MARQUEZ (voice-over): He says Clinton is more controlled but her emotions don't match the message she's delivering.

LOCASCIO: I'm watching Hillary. While she's making, you know, excellent points verbally, she's not making any of them nonverbally.

MARQUEZ (on camera): You are feeling it here and not here.

LOCASCIO: Exactly.

MARQUEZ (voice-over): An hour and fifteen minutes in.

TRUMP: Nonsense put out by her.

MARQUEZ: Clinton sparks real anger in Trump.

LOCASCIO: That's the first time we saw Donald Trump point. To point right at her that is very -- a derogatory motion right towards Hillary Clinton.

MARQUEZ: Clinton, says Locascio, throughout the debate was disciplined in remaining unemotional. Her body language for if most part dismissing Donald Trump.

CLINTON: And the worst part of what we heard Donald Trump say --

LOCASCIO: She closed her eyes again, blocking him out and she proceeds with her answer.

MARQUEZ: The final handshake just like the debate began, Trump trying to exert control.

[19:45:04] (on camera): Patting on the back.

LOCASCIO: Patting on the back. Another significant amount of control, shook her hand, pat her on the back, basically twice.


MARQUEZ: Locascio says what he saw last night is like the campaign in a nutshell -- competent but cold Clinton and emotionally open but an engaging Donald Trump.

He said, as a lawyer if he had to pick one of them as a juror, he would pick Donald Trump. He says lawyers, they just like people who are given to emotion -- Erin.

BURNETT: All right. Thank you very much, Miguel.

David Gergen is back with me.

And I'll note here as the body language doing his evaluation. Our poll of the performance did lean slightly Democratic. That obviously was well in Clinton's favor, slightly Democratic.

The body language expert you just heard, he said Trump was trying to project strength and confidence. There was more emotion in Trump. That Hillary Clinton spoke with the head but not the heart, unemotional.

Does this matter when people take time to think about this debate?

DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Absolutely. Especially, I think we've said a lot about Trump this hour. We haven't said much about Mrs. Clinton and she clearly was a masterful debater. She brought in all the facts and figures and rolled them at a battle with a smile and she did very, very well. And she carefully choreographed how she presented herself.

But we also know all along, she struggled with making emotional connection and I thought that analysis was very helpful actually in saying how her hands didn't and her body language didn't invite you in, didn't establish a relationship with the viewers. It was rather she was talking -- you know, they famously said about two of the greatest orators in history, Cicero, when you heard Cicero, he made you think. When you heard Demosthenes, he made you march.

And she made you think. And she could use a little marching music.

BURNETT: I will say it is a wonderful night when Cicero is mentioned on this program. I always say what a big fan I am of his.

Anyway, thank you very much, David Gergen.

And OUTFRONT next, Donald Trump's words coming back to haunt him.


TRUMP: I just think that she's a terrific person and she's been a great Miss Universe and she's like me and everybody else. We like to eat. We do like to eat.


BURNETT: So, did he really invite cameras to film a beauty queen's workout?

Plus, social media responds to the debate's most memorable moments.


[19:51:00] BURNETT: Tonight, former Miss Universe fighting back against Donald Trump. Hillary Clinton called out Trump last night for calling Alicia Machado, quote, "Miss Piggy" for gaining weight after she won the crown.

And today, Trump doubled own. So, who is Alicia Machado?

Brynn Gingras is OUTFRONT.


BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): She says Donald Trump called her --


GINGRAS: And because she's Latino.

MACHADO: He said, "Hello, Miss Housekeeping."

GINGRAS: Now, thanks to Hillary Clinton, the world knows this former Miss Universe.

CLINTON: Donald, she has a name.

TRUMP: Where did you find this? Where did you find this?

CLINTON: Her name is Alicia Machado.

GINGRAS: Clinton's zing coming in the final minutes of Monday night's debate.

MACHADO (translated): He was overwhelming. I was very scared of him.

GINGRAS: The relationship between Trump and Machado began in 1996 when the 19-year-old Venezuelan beauty was crowned Miss Universe, the first winner after Trump bought the competition. Machado claimed Trump bullied her, calling her "Miss Piggy" after she gained what she said was around 15 pounds during her reign.

The Republican presidential hopeful had this to say to Howard Stern in 1997.

TRUMP: She gained about 55 pounds in a period of nine months. She was like an eating machine.

HOWARD STERN: What does a girl eat to gain -- I mean, in less than a year to gain? I mean, what was she --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She must never stop.

TRUMP: I think she ate a lot of everything.

GINGRAS: That same year, cameras were invited to record Machado at a gym session where Trump took a different tone.

TRUMP: Some people when they have pressure don't eat. And some people when they have pressure eat too much, like me. But like Alicia.

GINGRAS: Machado admits she struggled with her weight before and after she won the crown.

MACHADO: My new boss is very Trump and he's very, there are nice with me. And in any moment, my contract in Miss Universe Company say, for example, I gain weight and then the people take off my crown. This is ridiculous.

GINGRAS: Trump's campaign denies calling Machado names but he doubled down on his plus-sized comments on "Fox and Friends" this morning.

TRUMP: She was the winner, and, you know, she gained a massive amount of weight and it was a real problem. We had a real problem. Not only that, her attitude and we had a real problem with her.

GINGRAS: Now, Machado is a mother and an actress. November will be the first election she can cast a vote as she became a U.S. citizen this August, and she's encouraging Latino voters to support Clinton. As for her name being heard around the world --

MACHADO: If my story can open eyes for this election, that is what I'm trying to do and to share something -- you know, something that I think is important -- my experience with this person.


BURNETT: And Hillary Clinton came very prepared as you say. Alicia Machado had a phone call with reporters this afternoon ready to give her side of the story.

GINGRAS: Right. As you said earlier, Trump is the one now eating his words at this point and she said in that phone call basically the reason she came out is she said she was intimidated when she was 19 years old. Her boss was Trump. So, she didn't want to speak out against him. But she says now, she's a mom, she works, she has a job and she thinks a vote for Hillary is how her voice can now be heard, Erin.

BURNETT: All right. Brynn, thank you very much.

And Alicia Machado will be a guest tonight with Anderson on "AC360 ".

Next, Jeanne Moos an sniffle-gate.


TRUMP: We wish you a lot of luck. You're wrong. Of Mexico. Is that OK? Good.



[19:58:05] BURNETT: Donald Trump today denying he had a cold at the debate. But is there any denying he had some case of the --.

Here's Jeanne Moos.


JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The Internet depicted the candidate spewing flame, shooting laser beams and there was Donald Trump making funny faces and distracting noises. TRUMP: The best ever at it. And you go to so many places -- it

certainly looks that way.

MOOS: As the Donald sniffled. Twitter sneezed. Someone get Trump a tissue. Does Trump have pneumonia?

The debate was dubbed the sniffening.

Parody Twitter accounts sprouted, pretending to be Trump's sniffle, posting gems like this video purporting to be a compilation of every sniff from the debate.

#makeAmericasniffagain circulated.

The Donald denied he had a cold or allergies.

TRUMP: No sniffles. No. You know, the mic was very bad. But maybe it was good enough to hear breathing.

MOOS: They mystery was contagious.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, now, we have sniffle-gate.

MOOS: Nose specialist and a body language expert speculated it might be a nervous tick. While others joked about things people sniff that cause sniffing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.

MOOS: The Donald has been a serial sniffer before. For instance, back when he first started using teleprompters.

TRUMP: I wonder why.

MOOS: And while the Donald sniffed, Hillary shimmies.


MOOS: Laughing off Trump's assertion that she has a temperament problem. Her shimmy was put to rap.

A shimmying cat and Shaq and Hillary made the rounds.

It could have been worse. At least the shimmy and the sniffle weren't combined.


MOOS: Jeanne Moos, CNN --


MOOS: -- New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE) BURNETT: Thank you so much for joining us.

Don't forget. You can watch OUTFRONT anywhere, anytime. CNN Go.

"AC360" starts now.