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NYT: Trump May Not Have Paid Fed Taxes For 18 Years; NYT: Trump Tax Info Anonymously Mailed to Reporter; Melinda Gates Calls For More Diversity in Tech; The Brutal World of Female MMA Fighters. Aired 7-8p ET

Aired October 02, 2016 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:59:50] POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Top of the hour. I'm Poppy Harlow, live in New York. Thank you so much for being with us this Sunday night. We do begin with our first look at Donald Trump's tax records. And it is not because the candidate is releasing them. The "New York Times" today revealing that someone anonymously mailed portions of Trump's tax records to the paper and they show that Trump may have avoided paying federal income taxes for nearly two decades.

How? Because in 1995, the businessman reported that he lost nearly a billion dollars that allowed him to take advantage of major tax breaks. Just last week during the first presidential debate, Hillary Clinton accused Trump of doing exactly this. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Maybe he doesn't want the American people, all of you watching tonight, to know that he's paid nothing in federal taxes, because the only years that anybody has ever seen were a couple of years when he had to turn them over to state authorities when he was trying to get a casino license, and they showed he didn't pay any federal income tax. So --

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: That makes me smart.

CLINTON: -- if he's paid --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: While CNN cannot independently verify the authenticity of the documents mailed to the "Times," the Trump campaign is not denying tonight that they're legitimate. Instead Trump backers say the document show that he is a, quote, "genius," for being able to utilize the system that exists.

Let's bring in a woman who knows the system inside and out. "CNN MONEY" senior writer, Jeanne Sahadi. This is the tax code. And it hasn't changed -- in the tax code, this is the tax could, it would be like, but we're sitting with the tax code largely written back in the early 1980s. The Trump camp is saying, and the surrogates, he is a genius for doing this. Your top line in your story is losses can be the gift that keeps on giving.

JEANNE SAHADI, CNN MONEY SENIOR WRITER: Right. HARLOW: How is it possible that someone could lose so much money and

then potentially not pay federal income taxes for two decades?

SAHADI: Well, in the case of Trump in the mid-1990s, what I was told by a tax lawyer who has clients similar to him, he said $916 million isn't particularly unusually high for that period because real estate values had fallen a lot before. So, in some sense you had paper value losses that you can write-off. I mean, the way it's super complicated, the way you can write things off in a given year. Doesn't mean it is coming right out of your pocket directly, and you're a popper on the side of the street.

HARLOW: It doesn't square with average Americans who say, but I lost a ton of money one year --

SAHADI: No one helped me.

HARLOW: -- and I didn't get to write anything off.

SAHADI: Right. So, the tax code definitely disproportionately favors high net worth business people and especially in real estate. There are a bunch of great tax breaks for them to take legally. We can say that they may be bad social policy, but they do exist. I should also say that three pages that we got from the "New York Times" are -- you don't know where the losses came from. You don't know what he did to get them. So I don't want to speculate on that, and I don't want to speculate that he is a genius or a dope.

HARLOW: Right,

SAHADI: I mean, there is nothing indicating that.

HARLOW: And the Trump camp is saying for their part in a lengthy statement, let me read you part of a deal, the only news here is more than 20-year-old alleged tax document was illegally obtain former demonstrating the "New York Times" like the establishment media in general is an extension of the Clinton campaign. They go on to say the incredible skills Mr. Trump has shown in building his business are the skills we need to build this country up.

SAHADI: Right.

HARLOW: As you poured through just what we have, which isn't a ton, what stands out to you most?

SAHADI: Well, to me, the loss seems quite large but I am not a tax expert. It is the sort of thing that he could use for many years to come. I don't know if it is over 20 years, the way the "Times" says, because we don't know what his taxes were going forward.

HARLOW: So, he came out today. Let's pull it up, guys. He tweeted this. I know our tax laws better than anyone else who has ever run for president. I'm the only one who can fix them. He has proposed a pretty extensive tax reform plan. What do economists say about that helping the average folks? SAHADI: Well, he would provide a tax cut for everyone. But it would

be, again, disproportionately larger for high income people. It's not at all clear how much, if at all. He would curtail the types of tax breaks that he's been enjoying as an active real estate investor.

HARLOW: So, bottom-line, the tax breaks for everyone, more breaks for the rich.

SAHADI: Yes, by a long shot.

HARLOW: By a lot.

SAHADI: Yes.

HARLOW: Jeanne, thank you.

SAHADI: Thank you.

HARLOW: For stories on CNNMONEY.com. You should read it. It helps everyone get their head around all of this. Thank you, Jeanne.

Less than 48 hours into October, could this be the October surprise or will this story be fragged off (ph) within a day or two? Where will the news cycle go?

Let's talk to both sides. Back with me from Pennsylvania, CNN political commentator and Trump supporter Jeffrey Lord and here in New York with me Basil Smikle, the executive director of the New York State Democratic Party and a Clinton supporter. Thank you guys for being here.

Jeffrey, let's begin with this. This is how some Americans woke up this morning, opened up the "New York Times" and this is how they read the headline. Billionaire businessman gets to lose a billion bucks in a year, live $1 billion life and complain that our road and our bridges are falling apart. Case in point, his 2012 tweet, half of Americans don't pay income tax despite the crippling government debt. How do you square the two?

JEFFREY LORD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Poppy, I can only tell you that the resentment out here felt towards the IRS is incredible. I mean, let's remember that the IRS commissioner is under threat of impeachment as we speak.

[19:05:14] HARLOW: Jeffrey, how is that answering my question?

LORD: It's answering your question because you're saying, how is that squaring it? I am saying, the American people are saying it doesn't square because the system is corrupt.

HARLOW: No, I'm actually, let me -- maybe I could have phrased it better. So, let me just re-ask it then. Donald Trump tweeted three years ago, you know, our country is crumbling because half of Americans don't pay taxes. And then this report shows tax returns from '95 that his campaign is not disputing are legitimate, that he lost almost $1 billion, which would have allowed him to not pay any federal income taxes for almost two decades.

LORD: Poppy, because that is the system. And he has --

HARLOW: Then why did he complain about people not paying taxes?

LORD: Because he's saying the system should be changed. But the system is --

HARLOW: No, no, no, Jeffrey. He is complaining about not paying -- he's complains about people poorer than him not paying taxes.

LORD: They don't pay taxes because of the tax system and the code and the way it is set up. But he has to obey the system and make it the best breaks just like everybody else. But he is saying, it's the problem --

HARLOW: Basil?

BASIL SMIKLE, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, NEW YORK STATE DEMOCRATIC PARTY: Well, listen, there is a clear -- here, that he has found away throughout this entire cycle to avoid talking about how much he did or didn't pay in taxes. It is clear from this report that he didn't pay anything.

HARLOW: That's actually not true. So, I'm going to correct you because that is also not true. It's not clear from this report that he didn't pay anything for 18 years. The tax code would have allowed him not to pay anything, but because as Jeanne said, we don't have any of the documents, we don't know.

SMIKLE: All right. So, to be fair, it is possible that he could not have paid anything for 18 years. But I think that also speaks to the major point. That if he were to release his taxes, we would have more information about what he did and did not pay. But what is also clear is that his attempt to represent the average American, quote-unquote, "working class American," I think, should be called into question here because no one, very few people, if many, in this country, have the ability to lose as much money as he had and had the potential to not pay the amount of taxes that he theoretically could not have paid.

HARLOW: So, let's listen to what one of his top surrogates, Rudy Giuliani, had to say about what this makes Trump. Play it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUDY GIULIANI, DONALD TRUMP SUPPORTER: The reality is, he's a genius. What he did was he took advantage of something that could save his enterprise, and he did something we admire in America. He came back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Is that something we admire in America, Jeffrey, paying as little tax, if that is what he indeed did, pay as little possible tax as you can? I mean, is that something that would work if all Americans did it and you have got, as Trump put it, crumbling infrastructure. LORD: Well, Poppy, you have to realize that average Americans out

there, they're not just paying federal taxes, they're paying state taxes, they're paying local taxes, they're paying property taxes, school taxes. They're tax to date. And particularly in states like New York, I mean, the taxes collectively are huge. Huge, as Donald Trump might say. So, yes, I mean, this is a real raw nerve for a lot of Americans out here.

And I mean, if Hillary Clinton and you touched on this, Poppy, you touched on this earlier, she's going around saying she's got all these experiences. She's got this great record. She was a sitting United States senator, she is suddenly saying there is a problem with the tax code because he does this.

HARLOW: So, it is an important point. And Basil, I want our viewers to hear from the real voters. Because too often, it's me yakking out here and the pundits yakking. And to be honest, it matters most what all the other folks say --

LORD: Sure. Exactly.

HARLOW: So, let's listen to Beth, a Trump supporter. I met this week in Pennsylvania, who talked about Trump's taxes. This is before of course the "New York Times" report this morning. Let's play it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BETH HAMILTON, PENNSYLVANIA TRUMP SUPPORTER: Trump didn't write the tax code. Politicians wrote the tax code. So, you know, you'd like to think that the man who made that much money paid some taxes, but if he gets away with not paying taxes, I don't know that I hold it against him. It's the tax code.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Basil, Donald Trump was never a senator. He never had power to reshape the tax code. Hillary Clinton was and did.

SMIKLE: Well, but here's the thing about Donald Trump --

HARLOW: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

SMIKLE: Okay. Wait.

HARLOW: I'm asking about your candidate. Does she bear some responsibility for the current system?

SMIKLE: No, but she's talked about it. She's talked about that for years.

HARLOW: I'm talking about action as a senator.

SMIKLE: And she's talked about it then and now. Talked about getting individuals to pay their fair share. And that is the point that I was --

HARLOW: But she never -- did she make comprehensive tax reform proposals? Did she push hard on this?

[19:10:04] SMIKLE: No, I think she did. Actually I think she did and I think she still is talking about individuals paying their fair share. And I think that speaks to exactly what that voter was saying, which is that, look, Donald Trump very early in this race was talking about the system being rigged. But in a way, he helped rig the system. He says, look, if I don't have to pay my fair share, I'm not going to pay my fair share.

HARLOW: Wait. How is that help -- how did he -- I get what you're saying, that he took advantage of the system, but how did he help rig the system?

SMIKLE: Because I think instead of in his public life -- and he's had a substantial public life -- instead of in his public life saying -- because if you look at what he's done in New York, there are ways in which he sort of supported New York, you know, institutions or parks and things like that. And he's railed against government. What he has said, instead of saying, I want individuals to pay their fair share, he has taken advantage of a tax code. He's taken advantage of whatever he could to help himself financially instead of saying everybody should pay their fair share.

HARLOW: Final question to Jeffrey Lord. One of the things he's not getting talked about a lot in all of this because it's all about, you know, did he pay these taxes or not, is the fact that this is a man who is running to lead the free world on his business record. He says I can make America great again. Why? Because I am a great businessman. But now we know from these returns he lost almost $1 billion in a single year. Does that bring a lot of questions up about -- I mean, does that bring a lot of questions up about his business acumen?

LORD: Poppy, he had some bad times there. There's no question. He has talked about this. He's written about this at length.

HARLOW: Almost $1 billion.

LORD: Yes, right. In his books, I mean, he talks about walking down Park Avenue and seeing a homeless guy and saying to his wife, that guy has more money than I do. He's been quite candid and open about this. But this is the art of the comeback. And one other point Poppy, I'd like to make, Hillary Clinton says that she wants to raise taxes on the rich. You know, Poppy, you can raise your own taxes. You can write -- as long as you pay whatever the IRS charges you, after all your lawyering is done, you can decide you want to pay double. Hillary Clinton has never volunteered to pay more.

SMIKLE: But will Donald Trump volunteer to pay his share? That's an important question. Will he pay his fair share?

HARLOW: I have to leave it there. Thank you, Jeffrey, Basil.

LORD: Thanks, Poppy. Thanks, Basil.

HARLOW: Nice to see you. SMIKLE: Thank you, Jeffrey.

HARLOW: Don't miss the only time that these two men will face off on the debate stage. Mike Pence and Tim Kaine. The vice presidential debate, Tuesday night. Our coverage starts at 4:00 p.m. Eastern right here on CNN.

A lot ahead this hour. More details on Donald Trump's taxes. What a reporter for "The New York Times" told our Brian Stelter about how they got these documents, and her response when asked if they have more that they will publish about Trump's taxes.

Also, my exclusive one-on-one with Melinda Gates. She and her husband have devoted their life to helping eradicate diseases like malaria and polio. Now, she is squarely focused on helping women and girls. We'll talk about that.

And later, they always keep us laughing. But last night may have been one of the best "Saturday Night Live's" in quite a long time. You'll see it right here. You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:16:24] HARLOW: Donald Trump's 1995 tax returns partially unveiled today by the "New York Times." The paper says it received documents from his filings that year anonymously. It says they came in a plain manila envelope, postmarked New York, New York, with Trump Tower as the return address. CNN cannot independently verify their authenticity.

But our Brian Stelter sat down with the Times reporter who received the documents and broke the story and asked what the paper did to determine that they were real.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SUSANNE CRAIG, GOVERNMENT AND POLITICS REPORTER, NY TIMES: We got a group of reporters together. And first of all, we sort of had two tracks. One is, let's try and verify them. And two, let's just see what they are and try to dissect it. You know, obviously, there was large concern that they weren't real. We had no sort of solid where did they come from.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN ANCHOR, "RELIABLE SOURCES": You thought someone might be trying to trick you, dupe you?

CRAIG: They could have been very much so. And that's why we wanted to verify it and just do some good, old fashioned reporting.

STELTER: I've been asking -- eventually, you reached out to his former person -- his former accountant, basically, right?

CRAIG: Tax returns are hard to verify. There's only a few people who could verify them. The signatures on it were Marla Maples, Donald Trump and Jack Mitnick who was his former accountant. And David Barstow, my colleague, one of the reporters that I worked with on the story, went down to see Jack and had a long discussion with Jack about the taxes. And Jack Mitnick said they're legitimate.

STELTER: In other words, when you see a story like this on the front- page of the "Times," weeks of work had to go into checking this out. FOX had some doubts about your sourcing but they also said you're trying to take down Donald Trump. Is that what you're doing?

CRAIG: I think his taxes -- he's running for president and whether or not he's paid taxes or not, it is an incredibly important issue. There is pressure on him to release his tax returns. I think it's called reporting. I mean, it's as simple as that.

STELTER: You think FOX doesn't understand that?

CRAIG: I think that -- I guess they have an opinion. I mean, we think that we're doing our jobs. And part of that is to look for things like Donald Trump's taxes and to find indications of whether he's paid taxes or not. I mean, this is an important issue, and I think that that's sort of what we do.

STELTER: There was a legal threat from the Trump organization before you published the story. I've been asking the Trump campaign this morning if they are going to follow through, they haven't replied to those questions. Are you expecting legal action?

CRAIG: I don't know. I don't think it is a crime to check your mailbox. And that's what we did and then we did some reporting. So, we definitely -- they told us that they may sue. And we are comfortable with the story and went ahead with it.

STELTER: Are you sitting on more documents?

CRAIG: We're doing a lot of reporting around this. So, we're going to keep going.

STELTER: Okay. So, that is a yes, you have more documents besides the three?

CRAIG: Maybe a no comment.

STELTER: No comment. And who do you think sent the documents? The return address was Trump Tower. But doesn't mean they definitely came from Trump Tower, does it?

CRAIG: No, it doesn't, obviously. They could have come from any number of sources.

STELTER: Do you know who?

CRAIG: Again, I'm going to no comment on that one.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: You can catch Brian every Sunday on his show "RELIABLE SOURCES." 11:00 a.m. Eastern right here on CNN.

Coming up, the presidential debate gave SNL's plenty of materials. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My microphone is broken.

(LAUGHTER)

She broke it with Obama. She and Obama stole my microphone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: The funniest moments from the premiere, next. You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:23:22] HARLOW: Probably no one in America is happier to see such a colorful election season than the writers and cast of "Saturday Night Live." The season opener last night got huge numbers. Their biggest premiere ratings in eight years. Of course, the incredible impressions of Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump helped big time.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Senator Clinton is the prune juice of this election. She might not seem that appetizing, but if you don't take her now, you're going to be clogged with crap for a very long time.

(LAUGHTER)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He hasn't released his tax returns which means he's either not that rich.

ALEC BALDWIN, AS DONALD TRUMP: Wrong.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not that charitable.

BALDWIN: Wrong.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Or he's never paid taxes in his life.

BALDWIN: Warmer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Okay, now you sure you're OK with Hillary being president instead of you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, I can't wait. Believe you and me, I freaking love the White House. I mean, you know, I could hang out there, you know, no presidential stuff to do. Red phone rings and I say, hey, you take that one, honey. I'll be downstairs watching the "Police Academy."

BALDWIN: Picking up somebody sniffing here. I think it's her sniffs. She's been sniffing all night. Testing. Testing. Jina, Jina, huge Jina.

(LAUGHTER) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Secretary Clinton, what do you think about that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think I'm going to be president.

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: If you didn't recognize him, that was Alec Baldwin in the blonde wig. He signed on to "SNL" at least through Election Day.

Ahead, the first look at Donald Trump's taxes. A "New York Times" report showing that Trump may have avoided paying federal taxes for nearly two decades. How will his supporters react to fresh revelations about the billionaire businessman's taxes?

You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:28:25] HARLOW: Donald Trump's tax returns, we now have them, not all of them. A little bit of them. 1995. That's what the "New York Times" got. They say they were mailed to the paper. These were documents that showed up about a month ago, and the paper wrote a long piece on them -- this morning. The return address claimed that those documents have been sent from Trump Tower. Of course no way to prove or disprove that. The "New York Times" reports that Trump may not have paid any federal income tax for up to 18 years.

It also shows that he claimed a loss on his '95 tax returns of $916 million. Almost $1 billion loss. The newspaper is not alleging that Trump did anything illegal. And CNN has not independently verified the authenticity of those documents. Let's talk about the big picture. What does this really mean 37 days out from Election Day? No one better to do it with then.

CNN's senior political analyst David Gergen, former adviser to presidents Nixon, Ford, Reagan and Clinton. Thank you for being here.

DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Thank you, Poppy.

HARLOW: So, you said to me, hope you're OK with me, in the break that when you say the paper, and you saw their article last night, you almost dropped your martini.

GERGEN: You're right. I started to have two more after that after that. What an incredible story. What an incredible story. Now, in Donald Trump's defense, Poppy, it does needs to be emphasized up front that there is no evidence that he did anything illegal. In fact --

HARLOW: Right.

GERGEN: -- tax avoidance, as you well know, is widespread. People often do that. What's the difference between what he did and say, some of the inversions are going on now when American companies move their headquarters overseas to avoid taxes. So, this is widespread and the law, for better or for worse, I think for worse, allows a lot of this. Having said that, this is not just a businessman we're examining for his business records. This is a man we're assessing for his business success to see whether that would make him a good president of the United States.

And I think it's going to be very tough for people to think, first of all, wait a minute, he lost $1 billion in a single year? And that's supposed to be a record of great success as a businessman? The truth is, Donald Trump's early years as a businessman were nowhere near very successful. They have been more successful in recent years. But there's another aspect about this. You know, he has been saying all through the campaign how the system is rigged against him. And you know, the phrase comes up regularly. Is this a man who can really claim that the system is rigged against him, when he can take $1 billion worth of losses and then not pay taxes on that next $1 billion of income, for the next 15 years?

The system has been heavily rigged for Trump and his friends. It's not so long ago, Poppy, that the same "New York Times" reported that he had taken -- he got massive tax breaks from the city and state of New York for his businesses. Eight hundred million dollars. And I talked to somebody who was a major, major figure in commercial real estate CEO. He said, that is unheard of. Nobody gets those kinds of breaks.

HARLOW: So, I think --

GERGEN: So, if you look at the totality of it, it is like, it's very problematic for a candidate.

HARLOW: I mean, his supporters are saying and his surrogates are saying, look, he is the one who is going to fix the rigged system. He's the one who is going to have the tax code rewritten. The thing is that his tax proposals that he's put out, independent economists look at them and they pretty much across the board say, yes, everyone gets a tax cut but the rich gets a way bigger tax cut. So, it doesn't change what he got.

GERGEN: Exactly right. Exactly right. And you know, the analysis so far, he had a huge set of tax cuts he proposed earlier, and they were going to bust the budget so badly and create some of his deficits that his advisers persuaded him to reduce the size. But even with this new reduced size, the breaks go mostly to people like Donald Trump and other elites like that. And so it mocks the idea that he's trying to do something for the lower middle class. Let's remember about, you know, these losses with these casinos, the company, the public company he formed.

So he has the massive losses back in the mid-90s. His shareholders see their stock price go from $35 to 17 cents. His contractors, you know, when he went into bankruptcy, they got pennies on the dollar of what they were owed under their contracts. A lot of the employees lost their jobs. Who was a winner in all of this? Donald Trump under the tax laws walks away as a winner. All these other people got hurt. I mean, he say that's smart business, but when you're running for president of the United States, it hardly seems like an advertisement for how fair and how understanding, how I'm going to fight for the working class.

HARLOW: You know, one though Trump supporter this week that I met in Pennsylvania, swing state, said to me, it's not his fault. He didn't write the tax code. He was taking advantage of the existing tax codes written by the existing politicians. And then, I just wonder how you think this really plays long term in this election that is so neck and neck. Because there have been so many moments that people say, oh, my gosh, I can't believe this. I mean, look at the Khan family, when he attacked a gold star mother. And still the polls are neck and neck. What is this net out to --

GERGEN: Well, that's a very, very good question. I do not think this will cost him the election. I think there are a lot of other things that play already. I think he will survive this. But I will tell you, for people who were sort of on the fence or thinking about how suitable is he for the job, do I want to be able to look up to him, I think this is a steeper hill. And I think he's going to get into the debates, he's going to have to defend it now. We're going to have a debate Tuesday night with the vice presidential candidates.

But there is one other thing that has to be said Poppy in this context, of course. And that is, we still don't know what is coming out. And we have all of these threats now from Wikileaks, the comments with documents in the coming weeks, that will be very damaging to Hillary. Now, we'll have to wait and see. I think we have to be patient, not pre-judge. But we're in a fluid context -- contest. Trump could still win this. But she is in a strengthened position over the last two weeks. Her position has gotten stronger for a variety of reasons, including the tweets and everything else. And I think her chances of winning are going up, and she's pulling away in some states.

HARLOW: You're right though, there are a lot of things that could happen. It could completely slip the new cycle.

GERGEN: Right.

HARLOW: David Gergen, thank you.

GERGEN: Absolutely. We have got to be patient. That's why this is one of the strangest, weirdest, hope we never see it again elections.

HARLOW: It gives us a lot to talk about though. David, thank you.

GERGEN: OK. Back to Martinis.

HARLOW: Right. Yes. Have one for me, too.

All right. Just ahead, she is a leader in philanthropy and power player advocating for gender equality for women and girls in tech and science. I sat down with Melinda Gates and asked her about why this cause is so personal to her.

And why she's so passionate about it. And also her take on this wild election. You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:39:05] HARLOW: Melinda Gates is known around the world for the work that she and her husband have done to eradicate diseases like malaria and polio. But now, she is dedicating the rest of her work and her life to helping advance women and girls. I sat down with her in New York and asked her why we haven't seen more advancement for women especially in tech and science, not to mention as world leaders. And of course, I had to get her take on this wild election.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: You haven't endorsed any candidate for this election. Something tells me you're not going to, am I right?

MELINDA GATES, WIFE OF MICROSOFT FOUNDER BILL GATES: We're not going to, either one of us.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, what do you make of this election season, and more importantly, what do you hope this country gets out of whoever the next president is?

GATES: I hope that for this country, we continue to realize our common humanity that we have. That, you know, we are seen as a country that is -- welcomes people. We're seen as a country who cares about other people around the world. We are what so many people aspire to be. When I go to Africa, people say, I wish I could live in the United States. We are the land of opportunity for most people. So, I want to make sure that we embrace all people around the world.

And one of the things that makes me optimistic, despite some of the rhetoric that's going on during this election is, when I talk to young people in this country, they are very open. They are much more global in their thinking. They are much more open in their thinking. I think part of that is the social media and what they can see in the images from around the world. So, I hope we embrace our common humanity after this election.

HARLOW: You think of the United States as so advanced, and we are in so many ways, but a tiny fraction of women are Fortune 500 CEOs. We're yet to have a female president, right? South Korea, Germany and all UK led us on female leaders. Women still make less for equal work, the exact same job as men do. And more women and girls live in poverty in this country. Is that something we're actually not talking about enough in this country when you put it all together?

GATES: I mean, you have to talk about it. We have to show what's actually going on in our country. And part of the reason I've even started to speak on these issues is because I would be in low-income countries and thinking, women aren't this far, they aren't that for, they had this. But then I would have to fly back home and I'd be asking myself, how far have we really come? I mean, we've made huge strides but we've kind of hit a stopping point in some ways.

And we need to have more women role models. I mean, until young girls can look up and see, you know, 36 different female types of CEOs in Fortune 500 companies, you know, 36 female types of women in government and women in philanthropy and women as scientists, and women as technologists until they can look up and see all that role modeling, we're not going to get parody for men and women in all of these industries and we need to. I mean, there's just no reason not to. We know that more diverse teams put out a better product.

HARLOW: You say basically that we were making all of this progress in this country, it's sounds like sort of plateaued. Is there a point Melinda when you think that happened and why?

GATES: I don't think there is one point where it happened on any one of those things. I think we just got to a certain point and then it kind of stopped. So, you get to almost 20 percent of women in Congress, and some years it falls back and it kind of goes back up. CEOs, we kind of got up to a certain point and then it falls back. So you know, you can go industry by industry and say why did it happen? But I just know we're not far enough. You know, one of the industries that I'm passionate about making sure we change is the time I was in -- I am a computer science major. When I got my degree, 38 percent of computer science degrees were given to women.

HARLOW: And it got a lot worse.

GATES: And now we've gone down to 17 percent.

HARLOW: Why?

GATES: Well, nobody exactly knows, but we think partly the games. When I was a kid, the games were more neutral games, like pong or pac- man, pac-woman. But they become -- the industry became very --

HARLOW: You mean the video games?

GATES: The video games became very male oriented and women started to drop out of the industry in droves.

HARLOW: You graduated with a degree in computer science and economics from Duke. And you say, it was the last computer science class for most of my female classmates who quickly decided they'd rather major in something else. You literally saw them falling out of the class.

GATES: Yes. After freshman year.

HARLOW: You've called guys in hoodies, quote, a toxic stereotype that has become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

GATES: Well, I think I got a little misquoted on that.

HARLOW: Look, to set the record straight.

GATES: So, look, I programmed with a lot of guys in hoodies and they were great. I mean, I enjoyed programming with them but I don't think that you want that being the only set that's programming. Particularly when you think about where we're going with health applications. You think about where we're going with artificial intelligence. I mean, if artificial intelligence, which I think is where we're going, if that's going to be taking care of our older generation, do you want just 25-year-old somethings, you know, making that -- doing that program?

I think you want some generative thinking in there. And so, I think you want to have a diverse set of talent. I think you want to have more women. I think you want to have more Latinos in there, more African-Americans in there. We all should be contributing to that and where the future is going. And if we -- fixing it now is going to be far easier than trying to fix it later.

[19:44:14] HARLOW: Girls education in stem. The numbers are sort of appalling when you look at it. Even like in middle school and high school for these girls. And then it translates higher up to many fewer women get patents, for example. What needs to change?

GATES: In terms of the stem fields, one of the things we know that good teaching looks like for girls and for boys, but is really for girls, keeping their self-esteem up. So girls go through a time in middle school where they think differently about themselves. And so in Science and Math, they often lose their self-esteem. They kind of lean back. We have to keep their self-esteem up and make them know that even when the boys are shouting out the answer and the girls are raising their hand, the teacher calls on everyone equally.

HARLOW: It seems like it might make a whole lot of sense to mandate that children in public schools learn how to code.

GATES: I don't know --

HARLOW: Will we get there?

GATES: I don't know whether it's mandate or whether it's just fun.

HARLOW: Or even encourage or even have it.

GATES: Absolutely. And New York City schools is doing that. Kids learning to code these days, you know, if you learn to do it early, I think you'll get far more than hooked on it. And I think the other thing is, you know, I have a young daughter who is coding, she is 14. She just sees it as fun. Right? I mean, she started coding when she was 12. I don't know what she'll do with it, whether she'll go on in that field or whether she use it in some other field. The girls are starting to learn that this is fun. And also, when they see role models, they say, OK, it's not just that women who look so little geeky to me, but wow, there is a woman who I respect and who looks fantastic and somebody I'd like to be.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: My thanks to Melinda Gates for that.

All right. Coming up, it has been called the world's fastest growing sport. Lisa Ling takes us into the world of women battling women in Mixed Martial Arts. You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:49:38] HARLOW: You've heard it said before, you fight like a girl. It's an insult hurled at boys of all ages. Maybe the question should be in the universe of Mixed Martial Arts, what's it like to kick, punch and wrestle like a girl. It's pretty tough. Lisa Ling explored the world of MMA to find out for the latest episode of CNN's original series "This is Life."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LISA LING, CNN HOST, "THIS IS LIFE WITH LISA LING": How has MMA changed you as a woman?

MELINDA DIFFEE, MMA FIGHTER: People, I think, get the image that you're aggressive or you want to hurt somebody. It's like, my everyday life, I never think of hurting another human being. I don't like seeing people in pain. So it's not about that. It's about pushing yourself, as far as you can go.

LING: I just want to understand what you like about this. I'm just going to try to get you on the ground.

I know I said I don't like fighting but tonight I felt compelled to try this for myself.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop your left hand a little bit, Lisa. Put it on your right hip.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Put my left hand on my right hip.

LING: What if I get you on the ground?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There you go.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh! Reversal. You got her.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Got to tap. You have to tap.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. That was good.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeheey!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lisa's got some skills.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have to admit, it's kind of a rush.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's fun though. It's intense. And you're thinking, what can I do? Don't accept defeat.

(LAUGHTER)

HARLOW: Lisa Ling joins me now. You're braver than me, I'll tell you that.

LING: But it just got a little glimpse into how competitive I am.

HARLOW: I certainly did. I wouldn't want to take you on. Hey, I mean, you clearly as we saw, you tried it yourself. How that that help you understand the mindset, why more and more women are getting into like what is the fastest growing sport right now?

LING: Well, look, I am someone who is unabashed about the fact that I'm really not a fan of violence. In fact, I quite abhor it. But there is something kind of animalistic that comes over you when you step into a cage like that. And let's keep in mind the fact that the people who actually do get into the cage are incredibly skilled. It requires a tremendous amount of discipline. MMA is more than two martial arts. And it is pretty shocking, the number of women who are wanting to now take part of the sport.

We all know how popular MMA and the UFC is in this country and around the world. And when you really think about it, this is the only sport that I can think of where men actually rush to bars to watch women participate in. They don't go to watch women's soccer or women's volleyball. But for some reason, this sport, women's MMA, has men in droves going to watch the sport. In fact, so many women actually are headlined -- they actually headline UFC matches.

HARLOW: Wow.

LING: Like, you know, Ronda Rousey and Holly Holm for example.

HARLOW: It's not just, you know, grown women doing this. Children are taking it up. Critics call it kids cage fighting. I just wonder what you found out about that, sort of how young girls are getting into this, what their parents are saying, how they convince their parents to let them do this.

LING: So youth MMA, as you said, is one of the fastest growing sports in the world. It's called pankration. And right now in this country, it's only legal in California. And I was surprised by how popular it's become. And in fact, lots of young girls are really anxious to take part in it. Look, it was hard to watch, but when you look at the statistics, in actuality, there are many injuries attributed to cheerleading, football and basketball combined than there are to youth MMA.

Before one competes, you have to go through a pretty rigorous physical examination. And there are pretty serious rules. You cannot strike blows to the head or anywhere above the collarbone. And so while it looks very dangerous, it actually doesn't seem to be as risk-inspiring as sports like cheerleading.

[19:54:10] HARLOW: Wow. It's fascinating. Again, the premiere is tonight. And by the way, just a final question, you just had your second daughter.

LING: Yes.

HARLOW: Would you let her enroll? Would you let her do it?

LING: You know, if they really wanted to do it, I would make sure that they became really, really good at it. Again, it requires tremendous amount of skill, and I would probably be less inclined to oppose MMA than cheerleading. I mean, cheerleading is really risky.

HARLOW: That is a great point.

Lisa Ling, we'll see it all tonight. Thank you so much. Premieres tonight. Thanks, Lisa. Lisa Ling, tonight, 10:00 p.m. Eastern. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:58:35] HARLOW: Finally tonight's number. Sixty seven. That is how many seasons legendary Dodgers broadcaster Vin Scully sat behind a mic before calling his last game today. His career, the stuff of legends. Famous for his golden voice and impeccable story telling. He started with the team in 1950 when he was just 22-years-old. The Dodgers were still in Brooklyn. Then Scully called 19 no-hitters and three perfect game including the one Sandy Koufax threw back in 1965.

Scully was also behind the mic when Hank Aaron hit his 715th home run, breaking Babe Ruth's record. And today, the 88-year-old closed his career with a game between two arch-rivals. The Dodgers and the Giants. The man famously known for calling his listeners his friends signed off by saying, quote, "I have said enough for a lifetime and for the last time, I wish you all a very pleasant afternoon."

Next on CNN, it's a night of premieres. Get ready for brand new "PARTS UNKNOWN." But first, at 8:00 Anthony Bourdain heads to Hanoi and then at 9:00, he takes in music in Southern flavor. It is the premier of "PARTS UNKNOWN: NASHVILLE." At 10:00 p.m. Eastern, an all- new "THIS IS LIFE WITH LISA LING."

I'm Poppy Harlow in New York. Thank you so much for being with us tonight. Have a good week.