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Interview With Congressman Sean Duffy; Clinton Grows Lead on Trump; Trump Tax Bombshell; Clinton: Sanders Supporters "Living in Their Parents' Basement"; Source: Hackers Targeted Voting Systems in 20 States. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired October 3, 2016 - 18:00   ET



BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: Happening now: art of the real.

Donald Trump falls behind in our new poll as he struggles with multiple controversies and his debate performance catches up with him. Tonight, Trump's foundation is being targeted by New York's top prosecutor.

Genius bar. Is Trump brilliant for avoiding taxes, as he's claiming tonight, or is Hillary Clinton right when she says he took from America with both hands? There's growing outrage tonight after a bombshell report on Trump's massive business loss and tax write-off.

Courting men. As Clinton gains on Trump in new polls, is she narrowing the gender and enthusiasm gaps? We're breaking down the numbers, Clinton's post-debate bump and the areas where she still has some problems.

And election tampering? We now are learning about attempts to hack voting systems in nearly half of the country. What is behind these break-ins and are they trying to rig the vote?

We want to welcome our viewers in the United States and around the world. Wolf Blitzer is off today. I'm Brianna Keilar. You are in THE SITUATION ROOM.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

KEILAR: We have breaking news tonight. Hillary Clinton retakes the lead over Donald Trump, claiming a five-point advantage in our new CNN/ORC national poll, Clinton increasing her support with men and independents after her first debate with Trump and with their next face-off just six days away now.

Tonight, Trump is responding to new controversy over his taxes, telling voters he used IRS laws "brilliantly." "The New York Times" reports that he may have avoided paying taxes for 18 years by writing off a nearly $1 billion loss in 1995 over several years.

Hillary Clinton seizing on this report. She's arguing that Trump is part of the rigged system that he claims he's going to change. And also breaking, the New York attorney general just ordered the

Trump Foundation to immediately stop fund-raising in the state. He's accusing the charity of breaking the law by not submitting to mandated audits.

And new evidence tonight that attempts to break into computerized U.S. election systems are more widespread than we thought. A Homeland Security official tells CNN hackers have tried to infiltrate voter registration systems in 20 states. I will talk about the breaking political news with Congressman Sean Duffy. He's a Donald Trump supporter. And our correspondents and analysts are also standing by as we cover the day's top stories.

First, though, to CNN national correspondent Jason Carroll. He's in Colorado. He has more on Donald Trump and his taxes -- Jason.

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brianna, Donald Trump had a lot to say about his taxes this afternoon here in Colorado. He did not say that he would release his tax forms, but he did say he had his own sort of take on this whole controversy.

He says he knows the tax laws are broken. And he says that's why he's running for president so he can fix it.


CARROLL (voice-over): Donald Trump trying to turn the tables on the tax issue after "The New York Times" published portions of his 1995 returns, showing he reported a $916 million loss that year.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: My understanding of the tax code gave me a tremendous advantage over those who didn't have a clue about it, including many of my competitors who lost everything they had, never to be heard from again. They were never heard from again.

CARROLL: The reported loss means Trump could have avoided paying any federal income tax for nearly two decades, Hillary Clinton seizing on the report today in Ohio.

HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: While millions of American families, including mine and yours, were working hard, paying our fair share, it seems he was contributing nothing to our nation.

CARROLL: Trump and his campaign not disputing the authenticity of the tax returns. Instead, the GOP nominee says he took advantage of the laws to make his company stronger.

TRUMP: As a businessman and real estate developer, I have legally used the tax laws to my benefit and to the benefit of my company, my investors and my employers. I mean, honestly, I have brilliantly, I have brilliantly used those laws. I have often said, on the campaign trail, that I have a fiduciary responsibility to pay no more tax than is legally required.

CARROLL: Trump also accusing Clinton of getting rich by selling favors and access. TRUMP: While I made my money as a very successful private

businessperson, following the law all the way, Hillary Clinton made her money as a corrupt public official, breaking the law, and putting her government office up for sale.


CARROLL: Trump surrogates rushing to his defense over the weekend.

GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), NEW JERSEY: The genius of Donald Trump has been to make sure that he follows the law, which is exactly what he's done.

CARROLL: Former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani taking the argument a bit further in an appearance on ABC.

RUDY GIULIANI (R), FORMER MAYOR OF NEW YORK: Don't you think a man who has this kind of economic genius is a lot better for the United States than a woman, and the only thing she's ever produced is a lot of work for the FBI checking out her e-mails?

CARROLL: Amid the fallout of his tax returns, Trump today is stirring another controversy after appearing to suggest that veterans with PTSD are not strong.

TRUMP: When people come back from war and combat and they see things that maybe a lot of the folks in this room have seen many times over, and you're strong and you can handle it, but a lot of people can't handle it.

CARROLL: The Trump campaign says the remark was taken out of context and insists Trump respects the service and sacrifice of military veterans.


CARROLL: And, Brianna, as you know, Donald Trump has been very critical of the Clinton Foundation.

Now the Trump Foundation facing its own scrutiny, this after the New York attorney general basically ordered the foundation to stop fund- raising because in a sense it failed to file the proper paperwork that would have opened itself up to audit -- Brianna.

KEILAR: Jason Carroll in Colorado, thank you so much.

We have more now on our new national poll. It shows that Hillary Clinton has taken a five-point lead over Donald Trump. It was taken after their first debate, but before that "New York Times" report on Donald Trump's taxes was published.

I want to bring in CNN senior White House correspondent Jim Acosta on this.

What are you hearing from inside of the Trump campaign about these numbers? Are they concerned? Because we heard Donald Trump address it today.

JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: As you know, Brianna, covering the other side of the campaign here, you show one poll they don't like, they will give you one they do like.

But talking to some Trump sources about these numbers, there is some concern. We can just put them up on screen right now and show you what we're looking at right here. This is the latest CNN/ORC poll, 47 percent for Hillary Clinton, 42 percent for Donald Trump. If there is any doubt whatsoever as to whether Hillary Clinton won that last debate, this poll and some of other ones that show the similar trend pretty much settle that.

Now, I did talk to one adviser who said they basically need some of these negative stories to die down, the foundation, the tax returns. And, as Jason Carroll just reported, Donald Trump did not knock down that "New York Times" story that he took a nearly $1 billion loss back in 1995, enabling him to avoid paying taxes for 18 years.

Instead, Trump and his campaign sound like they're taking a victory lap after all this, with the GOP nominee saying he handled this issue brilliantly. But, Brianna, talking to several sources around the campaign, inside the campaign, there's still a lot of confidence that this race is going to tighten back up again.

Still, consider how Donald Trump just in the last hour talked about microphone problems he was having in Colorado this afternoon. He was going after the debate commission, joking that they were probably controlling his mike in Colorado.

That shows he is still making excuses for his debate performance a week ago. Brianna, when you're still -- as Hillary Clinton said, when you're talking about your microphone, you had problems. He's still doing that one week later.

KEILAR: What about his tax returns? Because this just renews calls for him to release them. "The New York Times" published just the 1995 state tax return, right?


KEILAR: And so there are many years after that that would either prove or disprove that he may have not paid taxes. Any chance those are going to be released, or are they just still feeling, no, we're not going to do that?

ACOSTA: I talked to a source with the campaign who joked, well, maybe he should just put them all out tomorrow night during the vice presidential debate.

I do think there's probably a feeling inside the campaign that let's just get this over with. But the guiding talking point from this campaign for about a year now is that Donald Trump is under an audit, and that he's not going to release these tax returns when he's under an audit. Keep in mind...

KEILAR: Even though he can.

ACOSTA: Even though he can.

And the 2002-2008 tax returns are no longer under an audit. And, by the way, the 1995 return probably explains what all of those other tax returns would include anyway, because those 1995 returns basically mean he would have avoided paying federal income taxes for nearly two decades.

That is why when you talk to advisers that I have been talking to over the last day or so, they just want to find a news cycle that benefits them at this point. They just can't find one.

KEILAR: Yes, they can't. They needed it today. They didn't get it.

ACOSTA: They didn't get it.

KEILAR: Jim Acosta, thanks so much.

ACOSTA: You bet.

KEILAR: Tonight, Hillary Clinton is ratcheting up her attacks on Donald Trump over his taxes. She's questioning why he thinks he's such a genius if he lost $1 billion in a year.

CNN senior Washington correspondent Jeff Zeleny is live for us in Ohio tonight.

Jeff, give us the latest from there.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Brianna, Hillary Clinton is speaking right now here at this hour in Akron, Ohio.

And she's just going into Donald Trump's tax returns, going all -- making the case she's been making really for weeks, what is Donald Trump hiding? Tonight, she is telling them what she believes he is hiding. She called him the poster boy for the rigged system.



ZELENY (voice-over): Hillary Clinton returning to Ohio for the first time in a month, just in time to seize on Donald Trump's taxes, or, as she said, his lack of paying them.

CLINTON: In other words, Trump was taking from America with both hands and leaving the rest of us with the bill.

ZELENY: Clinton is touting a "New York Times" report that says Trump may have avoided 18 years of federal taxes, after declaring a $916 million loss on his 1995 returns.

She used it to raise more questions about one of his biggest selling points, his success as a businessman.

CLINTON: Yesterday, his campaign was bragging it makes him a genius. What kind of genius loses $1 billion in a single year?

ZELENY: She's trying to erode Trump's Ohio advantage and win over voters without a college degree, who are overwhelmingly siding with him. A new Quinnipiac poll today shows Trump up by five points in Ohio. She's made such infrequent visits to this key battleground state, "The Toledo Blade" wrote last week, "Where is Hillary?"

In two stops in Ohio today, Clinton pushed back hard, saying her policies would benefit working-class voters far more than Trump's.

CLINTON: And, you know, he has been dissing America in this whole campaign, right? He talks us down. He makes disparaging comments about our country.

ZELENY: She's hoping a new superstar endorsement will also help.

CLINTON: I hope to be elected president, but I know, here in Ohio, LeBron will always be the king.

ZELENY: Cleveland Cavaliers basketball great LeBron James said the children of his native Akron and all cities need Clinton in the White House. He wrote: "Hillary is running on the message of hope and unity that we need" -- all this as her opponent is wading deeper into old Clinton sex scandals.

Trump and his allies are revisiting how Clinton defended her husband and blamed his accusers decades ago, like in this 1992 interview, when she sharply dismissed Gennifer Flowers.


CLINTON: Somebody who is willing to pay you $130,000 or $170,000 to say something and you get your 15 minutes of fame and get your picture on the front page of every newspaper, and you're some failed cabaret singer who doesn't even have much of a resume to fall back on.


ZELENY: It's a risky gamble for Trump, who is trying to expand his appeal to women voters. All this will be fresh fodder for the second debate with Trump Sunday in Saint Louis.

Their first matchup is still driving the conversation, including in the season premiere of "Saturday Night Live."

ALEC BALDWIN, ACTOR: My microphone is broken.


BALDWIN: She broke it with Obama. She and Obama stole my microphone, took it to Kenya -- they took my microphone to Kenya, and they broke it and now it's broken.


BALDWIN: It's picking up somebody sniffing here. (LAUGHTER)

BALDWIN: I think it's her sniffs. She's been sniffing all night.

Testing. Testing. Gina, Gina. Huge Gina.


UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Secretary Clinton, what do you think about that?

KATE MCKINNON, ACTRESS: I think I'm going to be president.




ZELENY: Back here at the real-life campaign, Secretary Clinton is responding in real time to Donald Trump.

In the last few moments, she told this crowd here in Ohio what Donald Trump just said in Colorado, that he brilliantly used the tax laws to his advantage. She repeated that line to this crowd, and they jeered Donald Trump.

So, Brianna, one more sign here this campaign suddenly in stereo as she's responding to everything Donald Trump says. You can bet that line will be one used at their next debate coming up on Sunday -- Brianna.

KEILAR: Definitely will be.

Jeff Zeleny for us in Ohio, thank you so much.

And joining me now is Republican Congressman send of Wisconsin. He's a Donald Trump supporter.

Congressman, thank you so much for joining us here in THE SITUATION ROOM.

REP. SEAN DUFFY (R), WISCONSIN: It's good to be with you, Brianna. Thanks for having me on.

KEILAR: Of course.

And you have said repeatedly here on THE SITUATION ROOM that Donald Trump needs to release his tax returns. You saw this "New York Times" report. Were you surprised by what it revealed?

DUFFY: No, I wasn't.

And I think two points are critical, Brianna. And contrary to the reporting, you make it seem like, in the eyes of and the ears of the listeners, that Donald Trump didn't pay any taxes. That is clear speculation based on this report from 1995. KEILAR: Well, he hasn't batted it down. He has not rejected that

idea, and the report says that he took enough of a loss, and he has bragged about it, about that using that to his advantage.


DUFFY: But, Brianna, Brianna, but now we're peddling in conspiracy theories right now.


I think what's important to note is, there are no facts to say that Donald Trump didn't pay taxes, and there's no facts to show that Donald Trump didn't abide by the law.

I would ask you and your viewers, everyone who can take tax write-offs to reduce their tax consequence takes them. And to your views, whether it's a mortgage interest deduction or a child deduction, they take it.

And I'm sure that you and your own family take every deduction possible to reduce your tax consequence as much as possible. So, that Donald Trump did the same thing, Hillary Clinton has done the same thing.

Why are we having a conversation about Donald Trump? This should be a conversation about a broken tax code, which we in the House have aggressively pursued. Paul Ryan was one of the architects of it when he was the chair of Ways and Means. Barack Obama wanted nothing to do with it.

But we need a tax code that is fair, flatter, and simpler. But make no mistake. Donald Trump did not violate the law. And there's not one iota evidence...


DUFFY: ... he didn't pay taxes.

KEILAR: Congressman, no one -- we're not saying he violated the law.

But I think the question is, does this pass the sniff test or what is sort of seen as appropriate, if not legal or illegal, to some voters?

For instance, in our new poll, our CNN/ORC poll, it says 79 percent of Trump supporters -- that's Trump supporters -- say that it's a civic duty to pay taxes.

So, what do you tell -- I know you have constituents who are -- they are doing yeoman's work in your district. They are working for Mansfield Plumbing or they are in the admissions office at Ashland University and they're paying taxes.


KEILAR: So, what do you say to them when they have paid -- may have paid less taxes than Donald Trump?

DUFFY: But, Brianna, the point is, did you follow the law? And so if you have $1 billion in loss, you can write that off against future earnings.

KEILAR: But that's not the point; 79 percent of Trump supporters...


DUFFY: This is the point, Brianna.

Listen, you can create whatever poll result you want by the way you ask the question. I think most people say follow the law. And if you have legitimate write-offs, you can take them.

Now, do I think we should reform the tax code? Absolutely. But to kind of muddy the waters and say, well, there's an allegation that he couldn't have paid taxes for 20 years leads your listeners to go maybe he didn't pay for 20 years, when there's no evidence to that point.

I think, like I have told you as you introduced me, Donald Trump should release his taxes. But, with that, Hillary Clinton should also release the transcripts of her paid speeches to Wall Street banks.

And I think she should release the 33,000 e-mails that she deleted with BleachBit and destroyed off her cell phone with a hammer. And to be clear, Donald Trump didn't violate the law. There's no accusation of that. Hillary Clinton destroying government property, her e-mails, and destroying those e-mails when she had a legitimate...


KEILAR: And you know what? We have talked about the e-mails, Congressman, so many times.

But I want to talk about the taxes, because what we have learned from...


KEILAR: Congressman, Congressman...


DUFFY: But you have to make sure there is a distinguishing between lawful and unlawful activity between Trump and from Hillary Clinton.


KEILAR: I have.


DUFFY: And I'm making the point right now for you.

KEILAR: What my question is, is, when you look at -- this is my next question, which is different.

When you look at the laws...

DUFFY: OK, good.

KEILAR: We're talking about almost $1 billion, and this came at a time when -- I mean, he defends himself. This is how. Let's listen.


TRUMP: If you remember the early '90s, other than I would say 1928, there was nothing even close. The conditions facing real estate developers in that early '90 period were almost as bad as the Great Depression of 1929, and far worse than the great recession of 2008.


KEILAR: OK, so let's take a look at that, because that's not true.

This is 1995 that he's talking about. In fact, actually, real estate was on the upswing there. Some experts have looked at this and said, you know what? He probably should have been doing well, because a lot of people were.

He's saying that people weren't. And also he's talking about a recession, which was years before, lasted only eight months.

What he's describing, those market conditions, don't match fact. So, what do you take away from that?

DUFFY: So, two points. One, I don't know what the circumstances were in Donald Trump world with his real estate investments.


KEILAR: Well, I will tell you. He made an ill-timed -- no, no, I'm telling you. Look, look, Congressman, no, you said you don't know. I'm going to tell you.


KEILAR: No, I'm stopping you. Congressman, no, he made -- listen, he made an ill-timed...

DUFFY: Brianna...


KEILAR: He made an ill-timed purchase of the Plaza Hotel. He mismanaged three Atlantic City casinos and he made a bad decision getting involved in an airline.

OK, so please go on. But that's just -- you said you didn't know.


DUFFY: Fine.

So, when you have a guy that lost $1 billion, and he didn't go under, he actually came back and grew his business, strengthened his business, hired more people, he shows that he can take a crisis to a recovery.

Now, Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama have absolutely had a devastating economy. They have increased the debt by $10 trillion. Why would you go to Hillary Clinton, who actually drove us into the ditch?


Why don't you go with Donald Trump, who would say, hey, I have been in a crisis mode before, and I know how to fix it? I had my own. I lost $1 billion. We didn't go under. We recovered. We grew. We came back stronger.

That's what he wants to do for America. That's the pitch you make. Hillary Clinton, God, this economy is crushing people in my community and my districts. Their wages haven't grown. Their opportunity hasn't increased, all of this debt, lack of opportunity.

Donald Trump can come in and say, I have been through the hard times of a $1 billion loss. We're at a $1 trillion deficit or debt. We have almost a $1 trillion deficit.


KEILAR: Congressman, I have more time for you, but it's on the other side of a break.

DUFFY: Why don't we grow this thing with Donald Trump?


KEILAR: I hear you're saying that should be his argument. We certainly understand what you're saying.

OK, Congressman, stay with me. We will have much more after a break.



KEILAR: And we're back now with Congressman and Donald Trump support Sean Duffy and some breaking news, our new poll that shows Hillary Clinton now has a five-point lead over Donald Trump among likely voters nationwide. Still weeks to go, of course, before the election, but there you have it, 47 percent to 42 percent in this CNN/ORC poll.

Congressman, I want to ask you about something that we saw over the weekend. Donald Trump brought up this issue of Hillary Clinton's stamina yet again and he hit Hillary Clinton about her bout with pneumonia.

I want you to watch what he did at this rally.


TRUMP: Here's a woman, she's supposed to fight all of these different things, and she can't make it 15 feet to her car. Give me a break. Give me a break.


TRUMP: Give me a break!


KEILAR: All right, Congressman, it occurred to me. I don't know if you have return, but what he did was sort of slump down as he's walking on the stage to kind of mock her for that near collapse that we saw as she got into the vehicle leaving the 9/11 ceremony early.

I mean, what do you think about that? Are you comfortable with your presidential candidate mocking someone like that?

DUFFY: So, first off, we know that Hillary's health has become an issue recently.

But to mock her on stage, I don't think is very becoming. I don't think it helps bring people over to your side. I think you're going to win this debate if you stick on issues, if you talk about the economy and jobs and the border and security and ISIS. Those are all winners.

But I think a lot of people who have seen Mrs. Clinton struggle with her health feel kind of bad for her, and don't want to see the opponent mock her for this.

KEILAR: You mean because she had pneumonia?

DUFFY: Well, no, I mean, you have seen the coughing fit. You saw her struggle to get to the car, the pneumonia. She's struggled up and down stairs.

But, listen, I don't think you mock her for that. I think the voter will look at that for themselves and make a judgment without Mr. Trump going after her and mocking her for it. So, I think leave that stuff alone. Talk about the issues that are going to drive people to the polls to vote for you. And this isn't one of them.

KEILAR: Congressman Chris Collins basically said the same thing last hour. He said, you know, focus on the issues, and he rattled off a whole list of things that seemed to really make sense as good ideas for Donald Trump to hit her on.

But Donald Trump has alluded to maybe attacking her over Bill Clinton's infidelities. I mean, what do you think of that? Is that a smart way to go, when we're here, just several days out from a debate?

DUFFY: So, I think it depends, Brianna, that you walk on very thin ice if you're going to attack Hillary Clinton on the issues with her husband, and if you're going to attack her on her response to those victims of his sexual aggression.

It has to come up in the right situation, and you have to have the right tone. But if you don't do it right, a lot of voters will turn against you.

But I think what Mr. Trump has to consider is, it's dangerous. But if Mrs. Clinton is attacking Mr. Trump on a war on women argument, I think it's appropriate for him to pivot and go, you don't come to this conversation with clean hands. You have your own scenario with the victims of your husband, Bill Clinton.

I mean, she's called some of them trailer trash. I think it was one of them said, listen, Hillary Clinton is basically a terrorist against women.

But if you do it, again, you have got to be cautious. And I do think, Brianna, that if you can avoid the name-calling on both sides and stick to the issues that are really going to grow the economy and keep us safe, because I think that's what most voters want to hear about.

And we have seen this election more so than any other one, we're talking about this random stuff that drives the news cycle.

KEILAR: Yes, we are.

DUFFY: But this could be tabloid magazine stuff. Let's talk about the issues that are going to kick-start the economy.


KEILAR: Sure. But, I mean, Congressman, I hear you loud and clear on that, but we're talking about a candidate who is starting the conversation on that.

We're talking about it because Donald Trump is talking about it. He's the one who raised it. And if Hillary Clinton is hitting him on women, and he really is struggling with women in the polls, if he goes into that line of attack that you just described, how does that not just make Hillary Clinton's case?

I would expect that, if that happened, she might actually be doing better with women coming out of this next debate.

DUFFY: So, two points.

One, if she's an aggrieved wife who has a philandering husband, that's one thing. And that's not a good place to go.

But she, as a spouse, attacked the victims of Bill Clinton, that is a whole different story. And I think there's one other point that you can't disregard, Brianna. There's a lot of new millennial women voters who have never heard about the history of Hillary Clinton. They were babies when this stuff happened in the White House.


DUFFY: And I think a lot of women today, a lot of young women would be offended that a victim of sexual aggression by the president is then defended by Hillary Clinton. She didn't stand up for those women. She didn't fight for those women. She actually destroyed some of their lives. This is the poor intern, Monica Lewinsky, had her life ruined by what happened with Bill Clinton.

And so I think in that respect, that could drive the opinion of a lot of young female voters on the way that Hillary Clinton handled the situation with -- with the victim's of Bill Clinton's sexual aggression.

KEILAR: I will add some people would argue that that was not because of Hillary Clinton. Certainly, no mistake about it. Monica Lewinsky had a very hard time after that, of course, and she's talked about that, as well.

Congressman Sean Duffy, thank you so much. We really appreciate you being with us, as always.

DUFFY: Thanks, Brianna.

KEILAR: And just ahead, hacking attempts on voter registration systems in a record number of states. We are learning new information tonight.

Plus, "Saturday Night Live's" take on the first Clinton-Trump debate.


ALEC BALDWIN, ACTOR (AS DONALD TRUMP): My microphone is broken. She broke it with Obama. She and Obama stole my microphone. They took it to Kenya. They took my microphone to Kenya, and they broke it and now it's broken.

You hear that? It's picking up somebody sniffing here. I think it's her sniffs. She's been sniffing all night. Testing. Testing. China, China. Huge China.

MICHAEL CHE, CAST MEMBER, NBC'S "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE" (AS LESTER HOLT): Secretary Clinton, what do you think about that?

KATE MCKINNON, CAST MEMBER, NBC'S "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE": I think I'm going to be president.



[18:36:16] KEILAR: The breaking news tonight, our exclusive new CNN/ORC national poll which shows Hillary Clinton five points ahead of Donald Trump with just five weeks to go before election day.

And we are here now with our political experts. Mark Preston, you first. Take us through this new poll, which came -- responses came after last week's debate.

MARK PRESTON, CNN POLITICS EXECUTIVE EDITOR: Right. So a couple of things. As you see right there, Hillary Clinton on top, 47 percent; Donald Trump at 42 percent. This is actually a seven-point swing. She is up four points over our last poll. He is down three points. Put them together, she's up seven.

But let's look at a couple key demographics, or at least I'll tell you. Right now, with independent voters, she's up seven points. That is significant from our last poll.

In addition to that, white voters without college education, Donald Trump got a 44 percent margin over her. That is down to 21 percent. That is a gigantic drop in the enthusiasm among Hillary Clinton voters is going up, while we're seeing the Trump enthusiasm among their voters slightly going down. So if you're in the Hillary Clinton campaign in Brooklyn, you're having a pretty good day.

KEILAR: He really needs to turn that around, David Swerdlick. I mean, this is a trajectory that, for Donald Trump, cannot continue if he wants a shot at the White House.

DAVID SWERDLICK, ASSISTANT EDITOR, "THE WASHINGTON POST": Absolutely. And I attribute that to the last week, where we've seen him basically string out his loss of the debate over the course of a week, and it fundamentally remains a turnout election. Voter opinions are hardened on a lot of sides. And the question is whose voters have the most enthusiasm, who turns out on election day and who can get to those very few persuadable people.

KEILAR: Jeffrey Toobin, I want to ask you about Donald Trump's foundation. Because he now has the New York attorney general, saying cease and desist to the foundation, because they did not file the proper paperwork that would have, as they should have been, subject to audits, to reviews, and accountability. He likes to attack the Clinton Foundation, saying that it's corrupt. I mean, we've seen some distasteful overlap between the Clinton Foundation and the Hillary Clinton State Department, but there's not been any finding of corruption.

Does this undercut Donald Trump's criticism of the Clinton Foundation?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I don't think he'll feel that way. I think this line of attack, which he really didn't use at all in the first debate, he has made clear he's going the start using again.

I don't know whether it's effective or not, but he's not going to say to himself this is not, I think, how Donald Trump thinks: "Well, I'm vulnerable on this issue. I won't -- I won't attack." And I don't think he feels like he's vulnerable on this issue at all, regardless of what Eric Sneiderman, the attorney general said.

But I think one thing is worth thinking about, as we approach this next debate. It's going to be a town hall, with ordinary people asking most of the questions. They tend not to like negative attacks. So I think it's going to be very difficult for Trump to raise the Clinton Foundation, to raise the e-mails in an effective way, with a bunch of ordinary people scowling at him.

KEILAR: Yes. They might be forced more to sort of just explain their plans and maybe to make their pitch for themselves, which many Republicans say Donald Trump needs to do.

This foundation story is on the heels of "The New York Times" story that says Donald Trump, and they put out his state tax return from 1995 that says he took a $916 million loss and that he could have sort of written that down over the next 18 years and not paid any taxes during those years.

He says this is a sign, and this is what we just had Sean Duffy on. He says this shows that he made a comeback, that he was brilliant, genius, as Rudy Giuliani put it. Do we have a sense of what voters think about that?

BERG: Well, it remains to be seen, because this is still very fresh news. But we know that voters do care about Donald Trump's tax returns and have wanted to know what is in it, and the Clinton campaign has been pushing this idea that he has been hiding something.

[18:40:12] And so for us now to learn that he did suffer that very large loss that could have allowed him, for 18 years, not to pay anything in federal taxes, that's pretty much the best-case scenario that the Clintons and Democrats could have hoped for if Donald Trump were to release his tax returns or if they were revealed in some sense.

So it's certainly not a good thing for Donald Trump, and especially when we're talking about this swing in working-class voters that you mentioned, Mark. These are people who are living paycheck to paycheck sometimes, who really do care about the taxes they're having to pay and to see someone as wealthy as Donald Trump, who possibly was not paying anything in taxes, that's going to be really hard for a lot of taxpayers at that level, especially.

KEILAR: And you guys -- you guys stay with me, because we're going to have more just as a note as we go into break here. Eighty-six percent of people in our new people said that paying taxes is a civic duty. So that's something certainly to digest.

Now, just ahead, live from New York, it is the presidential debate.


KATE MCKINNON, CAST MEMBER, NBC'S "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE" (AS HILLARY CLINTON): This man is clearly unfit to be commander in chief.


MCKINNON: He is a bully.

BALDWIN: Shut up.

MCKINNON: He started the birther movement.

BALDWIN: You did.

MCKINNON: He says climate change is a hoax invented by China.

BALDWIN: It's pronounced "Jina."

MCKINNON: He hasn't released his tax returns, which means he's either not that rich...


MCKINNON: Not that charitable...


MCKINNON: Or he's never paid taxes in his life.

BALDWIN: Warmer.


[18:46:21] KEILAR: A comment by Hillary Clinton may prove to be a setback to her efforts to win over Bernie Sanders supporters.

I'm back now with my political experts.

What she said was something that came from hacked audio out of an e- mail where she said that Bernie Sanders supporters, and this was back in February, keep in mind, were, quote, "children of the Great Recession, living in their parent's basement."

She did go on to sort of say, in sort of an empathetic way, consider that this is why these are folks who are drawn to a different message and that she sort of wanted to occupy more of a moderate space. But, I mean, she said the thing and it was not so great.

So, David Swerdlick, when you're looking at that, I mean, what do you think? Even though Bernie Sanders has come out and defended her, how damaging is this?

DAVID SWERDLICK, ASSISTANT EDITOR, THE WASHINGTON POST: I don't think it's going to be that damaging. The Trump would like this to be a deplorables (INAUDIBLE), but it's not. I encourage people to look at the entire quote and the entire speech, she was describing the position that millennials feel themselves in with jobs, with economic prospects, and part of that is people have to move home. I just don't think it's going to have legs for the opposition.

KEILAR: And we just heard Donald Trump say at a rally in Colorado this. Let's listen.


DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We're a divided nation, and each week it seems we're getting more and more divided, with race riots on our streets on a monthly basis. Somebody said don't call them race riots, but that's what they are, they're race riots.


KEILAR: Who is he appealing to here, Mark Preston? What's -- I mean --

MARK PRESTON, CNN POLITICS EXECUTIVE EDITOR: Well, he's certainly not appealing to African-Americans where he's --


PRESTON: -- lure over to his campaign which shows by our new CNN poll Hillary Clinton gets 95 percent of the black vote and he gets 5 percent. Listen, there are clearly problems here in the United States. I think we can all knowledge that. There are more economic problems that are based upon urban centers that have been, you know, left behind and forgotten, as well as -- I mean, let's not forget, you know, we're seeing poor whites who are very unhappy with the fact that they're being left hind, as well.

We're seeing a level of frustration bubble up across the nation. To call them race riots would just -- it just brings it to another level it doesn't need to go in.

SWERDLICK: And to your question, Bri, I mean, he's also not appealing to the moderate, you know, well-educated upper middle white voters in the suburbs of Cleveland and Philadelphia, right? I mean, that's not what people will need to hear from Donald Trump, if they're going to consider giving him their vote in these swing states.

KEILAR: Did you guys stay up late on Saturday to watch "SNL"? Nod if you did.

I sure did. I was just waiting, Jeffrey Toobin. Well, you're going to watch it now.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: I watch -- oh, no, I've seen it since.

KEILAR: Let's take a look at this portrayal of the first presidential debate.


DEBATE MODERATOR: This has been an illuminating debate, but now it's time for our --


DEBATE MODERATOR: I'm sorry, what was that? Who is Alicia Machado?

MCKINNON: Thank you for bringing that up, Lester. She is a strong, beautiful, political prop I almost forgot to mention tonight, even though we already made a web video about her. Alicia Machado was Miss Universe in 1996.

ALEC BALDWIN AS DONALD TRUMP: Where did you find this?

MCKINNON: And Donald Trump called her "Miss Piggy" --

BALDWIN: How did you know this?

MCKINNON: -- and "Miss Housekeeping".

BALDWIN: That was pretty funny.

DEBATE MODERATOR: Mr. Trump, your response?

BALDWIN: Lester, why are we talking about this woman? We should be talking about the important issues, like Rosie O'Donnell, and how she's a fat loser.

And everyone agrees with me. I just wanted to bring that up in a presidential debate, right at the end, my own volition.

[18:50:04] Good idea, I did it.

DEBATE MODERATOR: Secretary Clinton, why are you crying?

MCKINNON: I'm sorry, Lester, this is going so well. It's going exactly how I always dreamed.


KEILAR: Jeffrey Toobin, I think what cracks me up about this is that it's sort of like the subtext of exactly what happened even from the throwing in Alicia Machado mention at the very end which is what happened. It was the biggest moment that came out of the debate. It was like right at the very end.

TOOBIN: It was almost -- you know, if you listen to the tape of the actual debate, you can almost barely hear her name because someone -- someone talked over her. I mean, she tried very hard -- I mean, that's what I think was so clever about the skit is that they really show, I mean, it is true that she really shoehorned that name in at the end.

You know, this is, you know, what happens with these debates is that people have an initial impression, but, you know, comedy shows, the talk shows, they amplify it. That, you know, if you thought Trump lost, you've now had 15 different comedians tell you he really lost. I mean, that has an effect, I think.

KEILAR: It does. It seems to kind of snowball, and it even, I think, emphasizes some of the things, for instance, that we saw trump do that Republicans look at and they say, why did he do that? Like, where he said, you know what we really need it be talking about the issues, to which many people in the GOP would have said, oh, thank you, thank you, thank you, and then he turns to Rosie O'Donnell and it's like, oh my goodness, right? He's sort of doing exactly what so many political advisers would say --

REBECCA BERG, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Art imitating life. This really does shape people's perceptions. I mean, if I try to think back to the Al Gore/George Bush debates, I think of lock box which was from "SNL." And so, these impressions really do stick with people because they're so funny and so on point. And really do reflect the reality, but obviously to a more extreme --

SWERDLICK: And you got to think because Trump doesn't like to be skewered in the first place, this just makes it harder for them to right the ship for the next debate.

KEILAR: All right, you guys, thank you so much. Good laugh there at the end for all of us. Rebecca Berg, David Swerdlick, Mark Preston, Jeffrey Toobin, thank you, guys.

And be sure to join us tomorrow. We're going to have live coverage of the vice presidential debate. That will start at 4:00 Eastern right here on CNN.

And just ahead, troubling new information about attempted cyber attacks on voting in 20 states. Russia strongly suspected. And tonight, frayed relations between Washington and Moscow are getting even worse.


[18:57:17] KEILAR: New tonight, a source inside the Homeland Security Department is telling CNN that hackers have attempted to penetrate the voter registration systems in 20 states.

CNN chief national security correspondent, Jim Sciutto, is working this story for us.

What are you finding out about these election hacking attempts?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: The headline is the number keeps growing very rapidly. Last week, our information was more than a dozen. Now, it's up to 20 states, attempted hacks, 23 are asking for help here.

You know, these are probing attacks to see what they can find. Bigger picture, the concern is that you have a foreign actor that is trying to sow doubt in the results of the U.S. presidential election. This is a major, major concern.

KEILAR: Like underwriting, sort of undermining the legitimacy, a huge concern as you say. You did speak to the assistant attorney general about these potential hacking attempts. What did you find out?

SCIUTTO: And I did. You know, I pressed him on, are they close to publicly naming and shaming who they believe is responsible? We've had a lot of sources, intelligence, lawmakers, tell us that Russia is the number one culprit -- number one suspect in this, but they haven't reached the stage where they're willing to do that publicly. But when you speak to the assistant attorney general, his beat is national security on this issue. He delivered a very stark warning. Have a listen.


SCIUTTO: As we approach Election Day, an enormous level of concern about hacking, parties involved, candidates, but also the U.S. election system. Are you closer to making a hard identification of who's behind these hacks?

JOHN CARLIN, ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well, I'll say this -- for a long time, people thought if you did something through cyber-enabled means, you'd be anonymous. That if you did it through the Internet, you'd get away scot-free. And we've shown time and again now, though investigation and attribution is hard, we can find you and we will, and we've done it whether you are operating under the flag of China, Iran, or North Korea.

SCIUTTO: You're confident you're going to be able to find and charge those responsible for these election hacks?

CARLIN: I wouldn't say that it will necessarily in every case use the criminal justice system. It needs to be one of the tools that we bring to bear charges. But I will say this, to those outside our borders who are thinking that they can mess with fundamental American institutions or values, that we can and will find you. I'm confident of that. When we do, there will be consequences.


SCIUTTO: We can and will find you. Remember, they have a history of doing this. They were able to identify individuals in China behind attack, individuals in North Korea. That's something to look forward here.


SCIUTTO: Yes, it is certainly a warning. Thank you so much for that report, Jim Sciutto. Really appreciate it.

I'm Brianna Keilar. Thank you so much for watching.

"ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts right now.