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Clinton Seizes Lead In New CNN Poll; Some Vets Angered By Trump's PTSD Remarks; Biden On Trump, Tax Boast Is Offensive; Pence Vs. Kaine In VP Debate Tonight; Trump: I "Brilliantly" Used Tax Laws. Aired 9-9:30 ET
Aired October 04, 2016 - 09:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[09:00:03]: CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: You're a funny lady, Alisyn.
ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Carol.
COSTELLO: Have a great day. NEWSROOM starts now.
And good morning. I'm Carol Costello live from Farmville, Virginia where, in a matter of hours, Tim Kaine and Mike Pence square off fighting not just for themselves but for their ticket. Thank you so much for joining me this morning.
The cruel reality of vice presidential politics, Kaine and Pence probably can't win many votes tonight but they can certainly lose them, and neither ticket can afford that in a race this close.
New CNN/ORC poll shows Hillary Clinton has seized the lead now ahead of Donald Trump by five points. That's since their last debate, she has gained this ground and he has lost ground.
Any signs of momentum loom large with the election just 35 days away. Both presidential candidates seizing on the bombshell report that Trump may have legally avoided paying federal income taxes for nearly two decades.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have legally used the tax laws to my benefit. I have brilliantly used those laws.
HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And while millions of American families, including mine and yours, were working hard, paying our fair share, it seems he was contributing nothing to our nation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSTELLO: There is a lot to cover this morning, and we're following every angle for you, of course. CNN's Sunlen Serfaty and Phil Mattingly are in Farmville, Virginia for tonight's debate here at Longwood University. Phil, we want to start with you. Good morning.
PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, good morning, Carol. For weeks, maybe even months, Hillary Clinton's campaign advisors have been pining, begging, pleading for Donald Trump's taxes to become center stage in this presidential race. Trump has assiduously avoided doing just that.
No longer. Because of the revelations from that weekend "New York Times" story, this is all anybody is talking about on the campaign trail, including Donald Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I understand the tax laws better than almost anyone, which is why I am the one who can fix them.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): Dangerous campaign liability or political opportunity?
TRUMP: I have brilliantly used those laws.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): Donald Trump hoping for the latter after the leak of a few pages of his 1995 tax returns, attempting to turn the fact that he may not have paid federal income tax in years into a testament of his business expertise.
TRUMP: As a business person, I've legally used the tax laws to benefit -- really, I mean it's to my benefit and the benefit of my company, my investors, my employees, my family.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): The Clinton campaign attempting to undermine Trump's spin.
CLINTON: Some of his supporters said, well, it just shows he's a genius that he didn't pay any taxes. Well, what kind of genius loses a billion dollars in the first place?
MATTINGLY (voice-over): Painting the Republican nominee as representing the same system he claims he's going to change.
CLINTON: Trump was taking from America with both hands and leaving the rest of us with the bill.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): Trump trying to downplay the near billion dollar loss "The New York Times" reported he had leading up to 1995.
TRUMP: The conditions facing real estate developers in the early '90s were almost as bad as the great depression in 1929 and far worse than the great recession in 2008.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): While casting himself as the comeback kid.
TRUMP: -- used the tax laws of our country and my skills as a business person to dig out of this real estate depression when few others were able to do that. I did a great job.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): This as Trump sparks new criticism after suggesting that veterans suffering from PTSD lacked strength.
TRUMP: When people come back from war and combat and they see things that maybe a lot of the folks in this room have seen many times over and you're strong and you can handle it, but a lot of people can't handle it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTINGLY: And, Carol, the Trump campaign is pushing back hard on any criticism about that statement saying it was taken out of context. It's not what he meant. And the Marine Staff Sergeant who actually asked Trump that question at that town hall also siding with Trump saying he was sickened that Trump's words were being twisted out of context.
But it's important to note what Trump said really undercut a key tenant of the treatment process for post-traumatic stress based on what doctors have found over the last decade. It also gave an attack line for Democrats, something Joe Biden -- both issues, Joe Biden highlighted in an interview with CNN. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The vast majority of billionaires and multi-millionaires, they pay their taxes. I mean, can you imagine Warren Buffet saying this? Can you imagine Steve Case saying this? Can you imagine any of these guys saying this? It's just offensive.
And what does it say about all the people here? Are they all suckers for paying their taxes because they can't hire a tax lawyer, because they couldn't make significant contributions to try to change the law to benefit themselves? Come on, man. That's just not right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[09:05:09] MATTINGLY: Carol, obviously, Joe Biden talking about taxes there. I think this is going to be the key issue going forward, whether it's the debate now, the debate five days from now when Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump square off again or, really, over the next couple of weeks and months.
Donald Trump has to find a way to defend this issue and go on offense. We're seeing him try it. He tried it out yesterday. It's going to be a consistent theme going forward because when you talk to Clinton advisors, they made very clear, she's not backing off this issue any time soon. Carol.
COSTELLO: All right, Phil Mattingly reporting live for us this morning. Thank you. So now back to the matter at hand. We are less than 12 hours away from the first and only debate between the vice presidential candidates.
So what can we expect tonight? CNN's Sunlen Serfaty outside tonight's venue, she joins us with a preview. Good morning.
SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, too, Carol. Well, as you noted, a lot is at stake tonight because this is the first and only debate between the two vice presidential contenders.
And I really do think that is reflected in their level of preparation. Each candidate seems to be taking a very disciplined, very consistent and serious approach as they've been preparing for the debate over the last weeks and months.
We know that both of them have been huddling with their aides for a few weeks. They've both been running through these full-fledged mock debates. And certainly, Mike Pence as he goes into tonight, he has to know that he is going to be put on the spot about his running mate Donald Trump's tax returns so potentially having to play some cleanup there.
But we did hear from Mike Pence at a rally last night where he previewed the direction that he would like to see the debate tonight go in and really hinted that he is readying attack on Senator Tim Kaine's record as governor here in Virginia. Here's what Mike Pence said last night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. MIKE PENCE (R-IN), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: A little bit of a debate with your governor, your former governor and your senator, Tim Kaine.
And I'll tell you, while I expect we're going to be talking about the visions and the choice the American people face at the top of the ticket, I kind of hope we get to talk about our records as well. Because they're just a little bit different.
I mean, when Tim Kaine was governor, he actually tried to raise taxes by $4 billion in four years. State of Indiana, I've signed more than $3.5 billion in tax relief for working families, small businesses and family farms.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SERFATY: And going into tonight, Senator Tim Kaine potentially has some home field advantage, this being his home state, but if you look at the latest CNN/ORC poll, you see that voters in terms of the expectations game, it's a dead heat between the two of them.
An Interesting, 24 percent, nearly a quarter of voters say that they are unsure about either candidate, either Tim Kaine or Mike Pence. So that is a big, big question mark left on the debate stage that both candidates, Carol, potentially have a huge opportunity to change minds and to reintroduce themselves to the American voters. Carol.
COSTELLO: All right. Sunlen Serfaty reporting live for us this morning. Thank you. Perhaps the biggest challenge though tonight for Mike Pence and Tim Kaine, making sure voters know who they are. As CNN's Randi Kaye found out, both candidates have a long way to go on that front.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Who's this? Long pause.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have no idea. KAYE: Who is that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have no idea.
KAYE: You're not starting out well.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know. I have no idea who that is.
KAYE: Who is this guy?
UNIDENTIFED MALE: That's Tim Pence or John Pence. Pence.
KAYE: Pence? Does that sound familiar, Mike Pence?
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSTELLO: Yes. That's a big ouch, right? So let's talk about that and more. Errol Louis is here. He's our political anchor for New York 1 and a CNN contributor. Susan Page is with me. She's the Washington bureau chief for "USA Today." And Mark Preston is the executive editor for CNN politics. Welcome to all of you.
So, Mark, you saw Randi Kaye showing pictures of Tim Kaine and Mike Pence around and most people don't know who they are.
MARK PRESTON, CNN POLITICS EXECUTIVE EDITOR: No, they don't. You know, a couple things, one is, according to our CNN/ORC poll, Carol, only a third or rather a third of American voters don't know who either of them are.
Think about where we are in this campaign. You have two larger than life personalities, Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump, who are sucking up all the oxygen. This isn't back in 2008 when Sarah Palin came onto the stage and everybody knew who she was.
Look, the focus has been on those two candidates and as you said tonight, their big job is not to make any mistakes and really try to do their best to promote their running mates. And it's going to be a difficult task. It will be interesting to see how they can handle it.
COSTELLO: Yes, because, Errol, I wanted to ask you, what is the purpose of this particular vice presidential debate as it applies to this year's election?
ERROL LOUIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, the way I think of it, Carol, is you've got candidates who are trying to, of course, help their ticket and, especially in the case of Mike Pence, really help the Republican base that is supporting Donald Trump to feel more comfortable with him.
[09:10:06] In other words, it sort of rounds out the ticket to have a social conservative alongside Donald Trump who, on many issues, is not socially conservative. Likewise, on the Democratic side, it helps when you have somebody like
Hillary Clinton who is seen as, in some cases, moderate to conservative Democrat to have a Tim Kaine next to her who's a former civil rights attorney who's taken some liberal stances and has done quite a lot of work on his own.
These are both also, we should keep in mind, very ambitious governors, former governor in the case of Kaine, who would like to see themselves on a national ticket perhaps in the top position in the future. So there's a lot here, I think, as far as the future of both parties and that's what I'm going to be listening for.
COSTELLO: OK. So I'm going to grab on to that and, Susan, this is a question for you. So, Mike Pence, he said things that sometimes differ greatly than Donald Trump, and he's trying to walk this line. And I'll give you just one example.
Here are how the running mates feel about the issue of abortion.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PENCE: I'm pro-life and I don't apologize for it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.
PENCE: We appoint strict constructionists to the Supreme Court of the United States as Donald Trump intends to do. I believe we will see Roe vs. Wade consigned to the ash heap of history where it belongs.
TRUMP: I think it would have been better if it were up to the states, but right now, the laws are set and that's the way the laws are.
JOHN DICKERSON, HOST, CBS NEWS: But do you have a feeling how they should change? There are a lot of laws you want to change. You've talked about them, everybody from libel to torture. Anything you'd want to change on abortion?
TRUMP: At this moment, the laws are set and I think we have to leave it that way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSTELLO: So, see, Susan, Mike Pence makes no bones about it and says it's wrong and he's going to work to change the law. Donald Trump is kind of all over the place, right? We don't really know what he'll do about the issue of abortion if he becomes President of the United States. So how will Mike Pence toe the line tonight, do you think?
SUSAN PAGE, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, USA TODAY: You know, this is not the only issue. On releasing their taxes, Mike Pence did, Donald Trump hasn't. On the Trans-Pacific Partnership, Mike Pence supported it. It's one of the hallmarks of Trump's campaign to oppose it. So there are a series of issues on which these two men have differed.
But, Mike Pence, with all due respect to highly-respected, well-liked public officials debating tonight, this debate is not about them. This debate is about Donald Trump. This debate is going to be about Tim Kaine attacking Donald Trump at a point he's had a rough week and Mike Pence trying to defend him and get this campaign back on track.
That's what he could hope to do. We've gotten Donald Trump on the run on a series of issues, including his taxes. Can Pence kind of right the ship as we head into that second presidential debate?
COSTELLO: So once these candidates get past all the niceties and maybe talk about some of their like, you know, pet issues, do you think that it will devolve into nastiness, Mark?
PRESTON: You know, interesting, Mike Pence wrote a treaty, so to speak, where he decried negative campaigning, and Tim Kaine as well isn't somebody who goes out swinging.
However, they know how to win. And as Errol said, they also have a political life in front of them. Mike Pence, maybe more so, tonight has a lot on the line because, often times, he has to go out there and defend Donald Trump over and over and over again on issues that he doesn't necessarily agree with.
I don't think things will get nasty tonight. I think what we'll see is Mike Pence try to turn it back to Tim Kaine tonight because by doing so and deflecting will allow him to get it away from Donald Trump. And we know what Tim Kaine is going to do.
COSTELLO: Yes. But, Errol, Donald Trump has had this terrible week, right, with the Alicia Machado thing, with his taxes, with being accused of being a misogynist and a racist. So you would think that Tim Kaine is going to bring all of those things up and Mike Pence will spend the night on the defensive.
LOUIS: I'm not so sure Tim Kaine is going to bring all of those things up. I don't know that it really helps the Democratic ticket to sort of get too nasty. There's a sort of a sunny optimism that the ticket has claimed it was going to pivot to and that is very much Tim Kaine style. It has been throughout his career, so I don't know that he's going to be looking to go overboard with a lot of that stuff.
Although, I think you'll see some very targeted remarks that are intended to get specific groups of voters in specific battleground states. So you'll hear, I think, some things about sexism because they're looking to get more educated women voters on their side. I think you'll hear some things were, just to make sure the millennials know that there's a difference between the candidates and the parties when it comes to, say, global warming.
But other than that, I don't think it's going to be anywhere near as in your face nasty as we saw between the two main candidates just a week ago.
COSTELLO: Susan, what do you think?
PAGE: I think sunny optimism would be a nice change of pace this year. I don't think we've seen much sunny optimism. And I guess I don't have really high hopes that this is going to be a night of sunny optimism or a night where we suddenly talk about the big issues facing the country.
[09:15:05] I do think, though, this debate is important. One of these men could end up being president of the United States, certainly in a position to be one step away from the president of the United States.
It's important that Americans have a little bit more of a sense about them than they do at the moment.
COSTELLO: All right. I have to leave it there. Errol Louis, Susan Page, Mark Preston, thanks to all of you. Thanks for being with me.
They only meet face one time. Pence and Kaine battle on the debate stage for their candidate. Who will win the night? The vice presidential debate, our coverage starts today at 4:00 p.m. Eastern.
Still to come in the NEWSROOM, brilliance in the eye of the beholder? Trump says he's smart for avoiding taxes, Clinton begs to differ. But what do voters think?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[09:20:06] COSTELLO: An enthusiastic crowd on the lawn.
Welcome back. We're live from Longwood University where tonight Tim Kaine and Mike Pence will face off in the very first and only vice presidential debate. We will be watching what they have to say about "The New York Times" report, that Donald Trump may have avoided paying federal income taxes for nearly two decades.
But the man the candidates are trying to replace, Vice President Joe Biden, is already weighing in saying Trump is all about Trump.
Here's what he told CNN's Chris Cuomo in an exclusive interview.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSEPH BIDEN, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I thought it was about making sure you did your part for your country. I grew up in a house where my father used to say, and he never made any real money, and he'd say, you know, "I'm paying this or that in tax." My dad would say, "It's a small price to pay."
Since when does somebody who lives at the top of the world in a penthouse overlooking the world be in a position where he doesn't feel any obligation at all to pay any federal income tax to support the military, to support education, to support our foreign policy? Since when is that a patriotic thing to do? Can you imagine any other president, any other president to just -- ever say that and be proud of that? I can't fathom it.
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: He says the law is what it is, and you guys made the law the way it is, and he just knows how to work the system, and that's why he's the right change agent.
BIDEN: And if you notice the change agent he proposed, the change agent is what he's proposing in a tax cut would lock in all of those special interests for real-estate folks and cut their taxes even more. He's -- this is all about Trump.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSTELLO: But Trump insists it is not all about Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The unfairness of the tax laws is unbelievable. It's something I've been talking about for a long time despite, frankly, being a big beneficiary of the laws, but I'm working for you now, I'm not working for Trump. Believe me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSTELLO: All right. So let's talk about all of this with Kristina Schake. She's the deputy communications director with Hillary for America.
Welcome.
KRISTINA SCHAKE, DEPUTY COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, HILLARY FOR AMERICA: Thank you. Great to be re.
COSTELLO: So it's been a pretty good week for Hillary Clinton and a really bad week for Donald Trump. So going into this vice presidential debate, you must be feeling pretty good.
SCHAKE: Well, you know, Hillary is really excited for tonight, for people to get to know Tim Kaine. You know, she chose him because he's a person who has always delivered for the people he's represented. He has a history of bringing people together and really delivering results.
She is looking forward for American voters to get to hear from him directly tonight and for him to talk about the plans of what their administration would really deliver for the American people.
COSTELLO: Surely, Tim Kaine is also going to strike back at the notion that Donald Trump may not have paid federal income taxes for 18 years.
SCHAKE: Well, you know, I think this was an astounding report that we learned this week. Of course, we didn't learn it because he was transparent and showed the American people his tax forms. So, we didn't learn it from that way at all.
But we got three pages, three pages only, and we learned that he is a colossally bad businessman. In one year, he lost almost a billion dollars.
COSTELLO: Well, he's also sort of portraying himself as this comeback kid, right? He lost a billion dollars, but he bounced back. He still has a viable business. And guess what, he's a businessman and businessmen use the tax code to benefit -- that's capitalism. What's wrong with that? SCHAKE: Carol, we don't know if he's a viable businessman. We
haven't seen any of his other taxes. We've seen one year and we saw that he lost almost a billion dollars.
He ran three casinos into the ground and failed at an airline industry. So, you know, he has said he's going to do for the country what he did for his companies. I think we all see his taxes, don't want that to happen. But as a result what we also learned --
COSTELLO: Again, you heard what Chris Cuomo asked Joe Biden, right? He said, you know what, these laws have been in place forever and Democrats were just as much a part of them as Republicans were.
SCHAKE: But, you know, he used -- he had a colossal business failure and he used a -- he rigged the system. He used it.
We're not saying he broke the law, but he didn't contribute to the United States. I mean, in 18 years, he wasn't supporting the American military, our first responders, paying anything for schools, but millions of hard working --
COSTELLO: He would say, I still paid real estate taxes, I still paid property taxes.
SCHAKE: He's not paying federal taxes. He's not supporting our military.
I mean, let's keep in mind Donald Trump is always out for Donald Trump. We saw that again. He used the tax system to not contribute to the United States and now he wants to be our president? It's really astounding.
COSTELLO: Well, I want to point out shows despite the conversation surrounding Trump's taxes, registered voters still favor him over Secretary Clinton with the handling of the economy. And what's more, Trump supporters say they don't really care about the tax issue. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[09:25:01] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know anybody who checks the box on their tax returns and says I want to pay twice as much as I have to. So don't have problem with it. If it was done legal, he's been audited every year apparently forever. I don't have a problem with it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For me, it doesn't matter what his tax returns show, it's more about what kind of person he is. Politicians are more crooked than businessmen to me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSTELLO: All right. So, you heard what those voters say. I think they have the notion that, you know, Donald Trump knows how to beat the system. If anyone knows how to fix the tax code, it's Donald Trump. SCHAKE: But what is he going to fix it to do? All of his plans are
actually to benefit the wealthy. He's not -- he hasn't put forward any plans that would help working class Americans. His tax plans that he put forth actually overwhelmingly benefit the wealthy and wealthy corporations.
So, I don't understand why this is a person who has never stood up for working people. You know, in his business failures when he lost $1 billion he left hundreds of small businesses unpaid for the work that they did. Hundreds of people lost their jobs. He has never stood up for working people.
So, I don't understand why people would think he would do that as president when he's always used a rigged system to his benefit.
COSTELLO: Well, again, he would say that he actually hires a bunch of people, too, and maybe he had that business loss in Atlantic City, but in other places he has been successful.
SCHAKE: Let's look at his full record. I mean, hundreds of small businesses not paid. Students trying to get an education went to his bogus university and are now suing him for fraud. He has just left a trail of bankruptcies and unpaid bills and people really hurt by his financial practices that at the end of the day only benefitted himself.
COSTELLO: Kristina Schake, thanks so much for stopping by.
SCHAKE: Thank you.
COSTELLO: Appreciate it.
Still to come in the NEWSROOM, wants to see Trump's taxes? Hillary Clinton said it should be illegal for candidates to keep them secret. We'll talk about that next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
