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Pence vs. Kaine in VP Debate Tonight on CNN; Clinton Seizes Lead in New CNN Poll; Trump: 'I Have Brilliantly Used' Tax Laws. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired October 04, 2016 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[10:00:00]

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: And good morning. I'm Carol Costello. We're live here in Farmville, Virginia, where vice presidential candidates Mike Pence and Tim Kaine face off tonight for their first and only debate. Thank you so much for joining me. They stand in the shadow of their presidential running mates but tonight Senator Kaine and Governor Pence have the spotlight all to themselves. Neither man is likely to win many votes tonight but they can certainly lose them. And neither ticket can afford that in a race this close.

New CNN/ORC poll show Hillary Clinton has seized the lead. She is now ahead of Donald Trump by five points. Since their last debate, last week, she has gained back ground and Donald Trump has lost ground. Any signs of momentum loom large with the election now just 35 days away.

Trump trying to defuse a potential land night, the report that he may have legally avoided paying federal income taxes for nearly two decades.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have brilliantly used those laws. I have often said on the campaign trail that I have a fiduciary responsibility to pay no more tax than is legally required.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: There is a lot to cover this morning. And of course, we are following every single angle. CNN's Sunlen Serfaty, Phil Mattingly, are in Farmville, Virginia for tonight's debate at Longwood University. Phil, kick it off for us.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, good morning, Carol. Just in a few hours, obviously all eyes in the political world will be on that stage behind me but now of course it's the candidates themselves. The presidential candidates themselves that are drawing all the attention and it's about taxes.

For Hillary Clinton's campaign, this should be considered a win. This is the issue they've wanted at the forefront of the campaign for weeks, months, begging Donald Trump to release his tax returns, attacking him repeatedly on the trail and in that first debate. Well here it is. Donald Trump is trying to actually spin it to his favor. Take a listen to what he said yesterday in Colorado.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: As a businessperson, I have legally used the tax laws to benefit, really, I mean, it's to my benefit, and to benefit of my company, my investors, my employees, my family.

It's my job always to minimize the overall tax burden to the greatest extent possible which allows me to reinvest in neighborhood workers, building amazing structures all over the place. And it fuels a tremendous growth in various communities throughout the United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: Now, Carol, this is a very important moment for the Trump campaign. As you noted, only 35 days left until voters actually go to the polls on November 8th and the campaign is in danger after a very, very rough week of kind of losing control a little bit. That is why they have gone on offense and doesn't look like they're going to stop doing that. Hillary Clinton's campaign, they're going to try and get in the way. Take a listen what she had to say yesterday in Ohio.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: While millions of American families, including mine and yours, were working hard, paying our fair share, it seems he was contributing nothing to our nations. In other words, Trump was taking from America with both hands and leaving the rest of us with the bill. What kind of genius loses $1 billion in a single year?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: So obviously Hillary Clinton not holding off at all. And you're going to hear that repeatedly when you talk to Clinton advisors in the days ahead. They think this a winning issue for them. If for no other reason than it takes Donald Trump off offense, it makes him defend himself. That's why that line -- those lines he's trying out yesterday in Colorado are so important going forward.

But Carol, I want to go back to the poll that you mentioned in the open. This is a big swing and you talk about Hillary Clinton up five in our polling right now. Last month, she was down two and there's a reason why. If you start to dig into the numbers a little bit as you look into this and it underscores why this tax issue is important, Hillary Clinton making gains among men, cutting the deficit there to Donald Trump by 17, but also making gains amongst white voters without college degrees. Now, this is the core of Donald Trump's support. This is what's been driving Donald Trump's rise throughout the primaries and into this general election. While he still holds a very large lead there, Hillary Clinton cutting that deficit by almost 20 points in this poll. This is an area, when you talk about this tax issue, that the Clinton campaign, while they don't, Carol, expect to win that group at all, they feel these types of issues like minimum wage, on taxes, trying to attack Donald Trump on his business practices, are ways to make gains there. If they can make gains in that area, they certainly would be in much better shape. Something to keep an eye on as we go forward, as these polling numbers continue to roll out in the wake of what has undoubtedly been a rough week for Donald Trump, a week that he's trying to turn around now. Carol?

COSTELLO: All right. Phil Mattingly, reporting live for us this morning. So, all this stuff is weighing on the minds of these two vice presidential candidates. So, what can we expect tonight? Sunlen Serfaty is covering that part of the story. Good morning.

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning Carol. Well, a lot at stake tonight, given that this is the first and only chance for these vice presidential candidates to introduce themselves to the American public on that national debate stage. And I really do think that sort of pressure is reflected in the level of preparation each candidate is bringing. They both seem to really be attacking the debate prep for the last days and

[10:05:16] months in a serious, disciplined, consistent way. We know they've both been steadily enough for weeks and months. They've both been conducting these mock debates with stand-ins for each of their opponents. And certainly, if you are Mike Pence going into tonight's debate, you have to know that you are going to be put on the spot, defending Donald Trump's taxes, the controversy around his taxes, and have to try to play clean-up a bit. But we did hear from Mike Pence yesterday when he was campaigning here in Virginia. And he spoke about the direction that he wants to take this debate, really hinting that he is readying a big attack on Senator Tim Kaine's record here as governor in Virginia.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. MIKE PENCE, (R) VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, I expect we're going to be talking -- we're going to be talking about the visions and the choice the American people face at the top of the ticket. -- I kind of hope we get to talk about our records as well because they're just a little bit different. I mean, when Tim Kaine was governor, he actually tried to raise taxes by $4 billion in four years. State of Indiana, I've signed more than $3.5 billion in tax relief for working families, small businesses and family farms.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SERFATY: Now, going into tonight, the expectations game, so important. And if you look at the latest CNN poll, the matchup between these two vice presidential contenders, they are locked in a dead heat. But more important than that is that a quarter of those polled said that they are unsure and really don't have an opinion of either candidate. -- For each of these candidates, Carol, is a big potential where they can potentially change minds, introduce themselves, and what makes tonight such a big opportunity for both of them. Carol?

COSTELLO: All right. Sunlen Serfaty, reporting live, thanks so much. All eyes maybe on the VP candidates tonight but the talk -- may revolve around the top of the ticket, taxes, foundations, e-mails and likability very much on the table. The Democrats are already on the attack. Here's what Vice President Joe Biden told CNN's Chris Cuomo this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Since when does somebody who lives at the top in the world, in a penthouse overlooking the world, be in a position where he doesn't feel any obligation at all to pay any federal income tax to support the military, to support education, to support our foreign policy?

Since when is that a patriotic thing to do? Can you imagine any other president, any other president, just ever say that and be proud of that? I can't fathom it?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: So let's talk about this. With me now, Jackie Kucinich, Washington bureau chief for "The Daily Beast" and a CNN contributor, Heidi Przybyla, senior politics reporter for "USA Today" and Mark Preston is CNN's politics executive editor. Welcome to all of you. Interested with me on the set, good conversation, I can't wait. OK. So Mark, analysts say VP debates can't win elections for their running mates but they can lose them. So what do these two men have to watch out for tonight?

MARK PRESTON, CNN POLITICS EXECUTIVE EDITOR: Well, couple things. Mike Pence -- as we expect, is going to try to steer the conversation towards Tim Kaine. By doing so, it takes all the spotlight and the pressure off of him, trying to answer for Donald Trump. At the same time, you're going to see Tim Kaine try to talk all about Donald Trump. And of course, he'll sprinkle in why he thinks Hillary Clinton will be a better president. But, you know, to the point, for today and tonight, you have Hillary Clinton with momentum. You have Donald Trump, you know, who's decreasing in his momentum. If Mike Pence is to lose a solid showing tonight, that will give a little bit of a boost to the time for the Trump campaign when they really need it. Tim Kaine, if he comes in solid and Mike Pence comes in flat, then the narrative tomorrow is going to be this is a very strong ticket heading into the next debate.

COSTELLO: And you know, Mike Pence says I'm of the zone, right Heidi? You can talk about the e-mail scandal in perhaps a more effective way than Donald Trump did and actually concentrate on that issue and pound away in a different way than Donald Trump in a presidential --

HEIDI PRZYBYLA, SENIOR POLITICS REPORTER "USA TODAY": In fact, Mike Pence is doing some things differently than Donald Trump which is that he's been preparing very much for this debate, as we're told, with Governor Walker and others around him and that he will try to do what Donald Trump didn't accomplish in his debate which is to land some of those punches. Even if the moderator doesn't ask you about them, we all know his mission is to bring up the foundation, to bring up Libya, to bring up the e-mails, and to try and shift the narrative a bit. And put Tim Kaine and Hillary Clinton, try them, put them on the offense, like Mark said so at least for the next several days they have a little bit of headline momentum on their side.

COSTELLO: There's a weird thing for Mike Pence though, Jackie, is his views seem to differ from Donald Trump's many times. And I have a few examples to share with our viewers. To show them what I mean. This is on the issue of global warming. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Think that they'll be little change here. It will go up. It will get a little cooler. It will get a little warmer like it always has for millions of years. It will get cooler, it will get warmer. It's called weather. I believe strongly in clean water and clean air, but

[10:10:16] I don't believe that what they say. I think it is a big scam for a lot of people to make a lot of money.

PENCE: Well, look, there's no question -- that the activities that take place in this country and in countries around the world have some impact on the environment and some impact on climate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: OK, so I have one more example to share. And that concerns the Iraq war and the support or not thereof. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PENCE: Now speaker, after much study, reflection and prayer, I rise in support of the resolution authorizing the use of force against Iraq.

Lesley Stahl, CBS NEWS ANCHOR: We did go to war, if you remember. We went to Iraq.

TRUMP: Yes, you went to Iraq, but that was handled so badly. And that was a war, by the way, that was a war that we shouldn't have entered because Iraq did not knock down - excuse me

STAHL: Your running mate voted for it.

TRUMP: I don't care.

STAHL: What do you mean you don't care that he voted?

TRUMP: It's a long time ago. And he voted that way and they were also misled. A lot of information - was given to people.

STAHL: But you've harped on this.

TRUMP: But I was against the war in Iraq, from the beginning.

STAHL: Yes, but you've used that vote of Hillary's that was the same as Governor Pence --

TRUMP: Many people were -- STAHL: As the example of her bad judgment.

TRUMP: Many people have, and frankly, I'm one of the few that was right on Iraq.

STAHL: Yes, but what about he --

TRUMP: He's entitled to make a mistake every once in a while.

STAHL: But she's not? OK, come on--

TRUMP: No. She's not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: OK, so we all know -- OK, so can Tim Kaine, Jackie, just look at Mike Pence and say, look, you don't even agree with Donald Trump?

JACKIE KUCINICH, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF "THE DAILY BEAST" AND CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: You know, it's an interesting line that Mike Pence is trying to walk because he has played clean-up crew quite a bit for Donald Trump over the course of this campaign. And Mike Pence has to do. He has to look like a team player. But he's also looking at his political future. This is someone who's very young who wants to be in politics long after this campaign whether or not it works out for him. He might -- he's got his eye on 2020 for goodness sake, if Donald Trump isn't successful. So Mike Pence has been sort of walking this line but you have to expect he's going to have an answer and Mike Pence is a smart guy. You have to imagine that he will.

COSTELLO: He's also a Christian conservative, right?

KUCINICH: Yes.

COSTELLO: So Donald Trump -- and I'll pose this to you Mark, is called -- you know what he said abo women. Alicia Machado, the miss piggy thing, the not paying any income taxes and being proud and a good businessman, you know, there's an abortion question here. I'm not really sure where Donald Trump stands on that. He says he's pro- life now but what he would do about it, he hasn't exactly said. Mike Pence is like sure about what he would do about Roe v. Wade, he would try to get it overturned. So as a Christian conservative, how does Mike Pence walk -- that line that Jackie's talking about?

PRESTON: How does he square that? You know, it's been very difficult for him. You know, Donald Trump in many ways is the antithesis of Mike Pence. Mike Pence is this very genial, not an outlandish type of fellow. Very conservative, in fact, he calls himself a Christian, a conservative and then a Republican in that order. So he's very specific about that. He himself thought about running. You know this time around. So as Jackie said, it's very much on the table. I think really what it comes down to is - look he has to be -- supportive of Donald Trump on the ticket. But what you will hear from social conservatives who don't believe in everything Donald Trump says is that it comes down to the Supreme Court and that Donald Trump has assured them that he will put very conservative jurists on the supreme court and that in itself for many social conservatives, and perhaps for Mike Pence, is enough.

COSTELLO: And I think social issues will come up in tonight's debate like it hasn't in the presidential debates which is unusual in a presidential election, right, because the RNC already released this ad and it criticizes Tim Kaine for being a defense attorney and defending these terrible people, right, I'll just let the ad speak for itself. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

Percy Walton brutally murdered three people. As governor, Tim Kaine commuted his sentence citing concerns disproved by the courts.

Jens Soering and his girlfriend murdered Derek and Nancy Haysom stabbing them to death in their home. On his last day as governor, Tim Kaine tried to have Soering sent to Germany where parole would have been possible in just two years.

Tim Kaine, he has a passion for defending the wrong people.

America deserves better.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: OK, so Heidi, some are like comparing that to that infamous Willie Horton ad, right?

PRZYBYLA: Some, including apparently the RNC spokesman who had to delete his tweet last night comparing it to Willie Horton ad which of course lives in infamy as one of the all-time great smear ads of political campaigns. I could see why he would want to delete that. Look, there are some clear differences with the Willie Horton ad but this is why I think ultimately this is not going to be effective. Because -- and Jackie and I were discussing this before the show, Tim Kaine's principled opposition to capital punishment is grounded in his faith, it's grounded in his Catholicism

[10:15:16] which is something that is very much in line with the Republican base actually as well as a lot of independent voters. I just don't think this is as well as an ad going after the number two on the ticket, so I just don't think this is going to have nearly the same effect as the Willie Horton ad, which really became kind of the linchpin of - Lee Atwaters' advertising campaign against -- effective advertising campaign against Dukakis.

COSTELLO: What were Republicans trying to do by releasing this ad?

KUCINICH: Seems like they're trying to fire the first shot. Because let's not forget, if you look at the new CNN poll, 30 percent of people, both of these guys, either have no opinion or don't know who they are. So the effort to define Hillary's running mate before anyone really knows who he is, it's always hard with us because like we've known these people since the beginning. That seems like what they're trying to do. That you can't trust this guy, he's not going to keep you safe.

PRESTON: You know Carol, it's worth saying too. They're trying to change the message right now because all the negative stories had been about Donald Trump. You put an ad out like this. What they're trying to do is they're also trying to take us all off topic of what's happening with Trump, you talk about Tim Kaine. --

COSTELLO: OK. That part worked, right?

PRESTON: A little bit.

COSTELLO: Mark, Heidi, Jackie, thank you so much for being with me. Coming up in the "Newsroom," oh, I have to take you to the quick reminder, tonight marks the first and only time the vice presidential candidates will make their case on the on the same debate stage. You can catch CNN's special coverage, right here beginning at 4:00 p.m. Eastern.

Still to come in the "Newsroom," a fellow billionaire, lights into Trump on taxes. Up next, why the co-founder of LinkedIn lashed out.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:20:55] COSTELLO: All right, welcome back. We're just hours away from the first and only vice presidential debate. We're live in Farmville, Virginia. Mr. Trump is still taking heat on his tax controversy. A co-founder of LinkedIn, a Clinton supporter and fellow billionaire slammed Trump over his big loss in 1995 and his use of federal loopholes. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REID HOFFMAN, LINKEDIN CO-FOUNDER: Losing nearly $1 billion actually, in fact, doesn't make you a very successful businessman and doesn't actually make you brilliant. It's really awkward, almost indecent, to be claiming I am a great public servant, I want to serve you, and by the way, I go through enormous amounts of expense and energy to avoid contributing my fair share into the common coffers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: This, as a new CNN/ORC poll shows 8 out of 10 Trump voters say paying taxes is a, "civic duty." So let's talk about this with our CNN political commentators joining me here in Farmville, Symone Sanders is former national press secretary for Bernie Sanders presidential primary campaign, she's now a Hillary Clinton supporter and Scottie Nell Hughes is a political editor with "RightAlerts.com" and a Donald Trump supporter. Welcome to both of you. -- OK. Scottie, first volley goes to you. So you heard what the LinkedIn guy said. And you saw that even Trump voters, says it's like a "civic duty" to pay income taxes.

SCOTTIE NELL HUGHES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR AND POLITICAL EDITOR WITH "RIGHTALERTS.COM": And I think Mr. Trump would agree. Nothing has said he has not paid taxes. He just hasn't produced the documents to show how much. He's done what almost every American has - COSTELLO: He didn't dispute anything in "The New York Times" article which makes me believe that he really didn't pay federal income taxes for the last 18 years.

HUGHES: He's not going to add into the narrative of an illegal document that was published by "The New York Times." How can Mr. Trump go--

COSTELLO: He's not disputing the document.

HUGHES: But he's disputing that it's illegal, they should not have published it without his release. That is illegal to do in "The New York Times" says he's running for president, we don't care about the law --

COSTELLO: That said, it's out there and people have seen it and it is an accurate document.

HUGHES: That is true, but one thing is, this is the same game from an old playbook that we saw back in 2012 with Harry Reid who came out, afterwards said that it was a rehearsed practiced lie. And Harry Reid's comments about pressing Mitt Romney to do his taxes, to release his taxes, that turned out to be he paid as well. Said, you know what, I had no regret. Mitt Romney isn't president. So this is just the same game the Democrats play in order --

COSTELLO: Wait, I'm trying to understand what you're saying. So you're saying this won't matter at all?

HUGHES: It's not mattering because the majority -- unless you're an American and you go into your account in every year and you say, you know what don't give me any deductions, then you might have --

COSTELLO: But I couldn't go into my accountant and say, you know what, I suffered this loss and I don't want to pay any federal income taxes. I can't do that. Only people who make as much money as Mr. Trump can do that.

HUGHES: Well, Hillary Clinton did the same thing. "The New York Times" did the same thing. This is something that -- this is a standard practice by most people in business right now --

COSTELLO: I don't know about Hillary Clinton but Delta Airlines did the same thing. So does Scottie have a point, Symone?

SYMONE SANDERS, CNN COMMENTATOR AND FORMER NATIONAL PRESS SECRETARY FOR BERNIE SANDERS 2016: You know what, no. So what I want to know, there's a difference between maybe $700,000 and $1 billion and Donald Trump has no one to blame but himself for this loss of $1 billion. But what I do think we have to make note of is look, Donald Trump was maybe a brown or black skinned man named Donny and worked a regular job, he probably wouldn't be running for president, he'd probably be in jail for tax evasion. So it is a provision of privilege because Donald Trump is a man of many means to employ these tactics. This is not going to fly with every day American voters, you know, people that work on Main Street and for maybe for Trump supporters, it won't make a difference but people whom Mr. Trump is trying to win over, I think it definitely does.

COSTELLO: But nothing illegal has been done here. You can't say tax evasion. Nothing illegal has been -- that's something across the board. Everybody's saying nothing illegal has been done. And the reason why Mr. Trump paid more is because he made more. He made more jobs. He created more money, he put into the economy. An economy underneath Bill Clinton that was hurting, for those that were developers. That was on adverse that were happening at that point.

SANDERS: It is documented that under Bill Clinton, the economy enjoyed one of the most prosperous times, like, in --

HUGHES: Main Street did.

SANDERS: -- And I would also like to note that just because something is legal doesn't make it right. You know, slavery was legal for a really long Time. There are lots of things. It was legal -- like domestic violence wasn't frowned upon --

HUGHES: Well then take that up with your candidate because she did the exact same thing. In 1996, under Bill, 71,800 businesses failed, owing $36 million that same year as Donald Trump.

SANDERS: Donald Trump has filed for bankruptcy. Look, I think

[10:25:16] this is what's important to know here Carol, is that we're talking about winning an election. I know Donald Trump likes to boast that he won 10 million or so odd votes in the primary campaign, but to be president, you need to win upwards of 65 million or 75 million voters. So, things like this makes a difference and if Donald Trump is running as a person that is advocating for those working class people that the Democrats and Republicans have left out and left behind for so long. Someone who willingly boasts about evading the tax system to pad his own pockets and protect his own interest is not somebody that identifies with regular, hardworking people. --

COSTELLO: Here's the other tact that Mr. Trump is taking now. You know, talking about that nearly $1 billion loss in that single year which is a big loss right? He's saying that, you know what I showed that I can get myself out of it and he is sort of portraying himself as this underdog who can overcome hardship. But how could he be an underdog when he's always been wealthy? It's not like he went broke after that, because he didn't -- he still had $400,000 every single month to live on during that Time. So how is he the underdog?

HUGHES: Well, he never hid it in that time. He actually wrote an e- mail -- published of that same year saying this is tough, this is a tough economy right now for builders and developers. And the laws are written for real estate developers to be able to write off enough so they turn around and reinvest in the community and create jobs. That's why Donald Trump attributed --

COSTELLO: But when his casinos closed down in Atlantic City, people lost jobs and many contractors weren't paid.

HUGHES: Because in an economy and stifling government regulations underneath a Democrat mayor and a Democrat president, this is the Bill Clinton economy we were in.

COSTELLO: The '90s were roaring Scottie --

HUGHES: Main Street --

SANDERS: people were very --

COSTELLO: but losing money --

HUGHES: then how did 71,000 businesses go under that year alone --

COSTELLO: Maybe because they were bad businessmen.

HUGHES: You know what this is why this speaks to the American people. Mr. Trump -- despite the economy, what was going on, I still reemerged as a success --

COSTELLO: All right, I got to leave it there. Simone Sanders, Scottie Nell Hughes, thanks so much for a spirited conversation this morning. I know my executive producer Michelle was trying to say something in my ear. Am I missing a breaking news event?

Nope, we're just going to the next debate. What's it like to debate Tim Kaine? My next guest actually knows the answer to that question. We'll get insights to the former Virginia governor and Senator George Allen, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)