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Pence, Kaine Square Off in Feisty VP Debate; Source: Trump Upset With Pence Performance; Kaine Criticized for Constant Interruptions. Aired 9-9:30 ET
Aired October 05, 2016 - 09:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[09:00:09] CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Man, if you get to do carpool karaoke, I'm going to do it with you, Alisyn. It would be so much fun and awesome. Have a good --
ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: That's a deal. It's a deal. Call us, James.
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Call us.
COSTELLO: Absolutely, James. We're sending word out now. Thanks guys. We'll see you later. NEWSROOM starts now.
And good morning. I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me. The vice presidential debate between Tim Kaine and Mike Pence, lots of jabs, insults and interruptions but the number one job for the two men, do not hurt their own campaign. By most accounts, mission accomplished.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. TIM KAINE, (D) VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The thought of Donald Trump as Commander-in-Chief scares us to death.
GOV. MIKE PENCE, (R) VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The campaign of Hillary Clinton and Tim Kaine has been an avalanche of insults.
KAINE: The Trump plan is a different plan. It's a "You're fired" plan.
PENCE: I appreciate the "You're hired, you're fired" thing, Senator. You use that whole lot and I think your running mate used a lot of pre-done lines.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSTELLO: OK. So there's a lot to cover as usual. We're following every angle for you. CNN'S Phil Mattingly breaks down the fiery debate. Sunlen Serfaty has the fallout. Take it away, Phil. Let's start with you.
PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Carol, remember, at one point, this was supposed to be the boring debate, the debate between, as one person said, dull versus duller. Yes, not so much.
Look, the candidates had very clear goals and objectives going into this debate. They just took a rather combative pathway to get there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PENCE: -- and foreign donors.
KAINE: If you are a Donald Trump sopranist --
ELAINE QUIJANO, VICE PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE MODERATOR: And you're running what --
PENCE: I must have hit a nerve here.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): Hotly contentious from the start.
KAINE: I can't imagine how Governor Pence can defend the insult- driven, selfish-me for style of Donald Trump.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): The vice presidential debate becoming a night of whose candidate is more insulting.
PENCE: Senator, you and Hillary Clinton would know a lot about an insult-driven campaign.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): Tim Kaine repeatedly putting Mike Pence on the defensive using Donald Trump's own words.
KAINE: He's called women slobs, pigs, dogs, disgusting. He went after John McCain, a POW, and said he wasn't a hero.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): Words Pence, in many cases, didn't directly defend.
KAINE: When Donald Trump says women should be punished or Mexicans are rapists and criminals --
PENCE: I'm telling you --
KAINE: -- or John McCain is not a hero, he is showing you who he is.
PENCE: Senator, you whipped out that Mexican thing again. Look --
KAINE: Can you defend it?
PENCE: -- there are criminal aliens in this country, Tim.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): Instead, trying to take a similar tack against Hillary Clinton.
PENCE: He still wouldn't have a fraction of the insults that Hillary Clinton leveled when she said that half of our supporters were a basket of deplorables.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): Trump's running mate at times flat out denying statements the billionaire has made in the past.
KAINE: Donald Trump and Mike Pence have said he's a great leader, and Donald Trump has business --
PENCE: No, we haven't.
DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I respect Putin. He's a strong leader.
KAINE: Donald Trump's claimed that he wants to -- that NATO is obsolete and that we need to get rid of NATO is so dangerous because --
PENCE: It's not a plan.
TRUMP: NATO is obsolete. NATO has to either be rejiggered, you know, changed for the better.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): Kaine frequently interrupting Pence.
KAINE: Let me talk about this figure about the state of the world.
PENCE: Senator, I think I'm still on my time. Yes, he --
KAINE: Well, I know. These were Donald --
PENCE: He says --
KAINE: Hold on a second, Governor.
PENCE: It's my time, Senator.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): And attempting to prove Trump is unfit for office by quoting Ronald Reagan.
KAINE: He said the problem with nuclear proliferation is that some fool or maniac could trigger a catastrophic event. And I think that's who Governor Pence's running mate is, exactly who President Reagan warned us about.
PENCE: Oh, come on. Senator, that was even beneath you and Hillary Clinton. And that is pretty low.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): Kaine hammering Pence on Donald Trump's refusal to release his taxes.
KAINE: And he said if I run for President, I will absolutely release my taxes. He's broken his first --
PENCE: And he will.
KAINE: He's broken his first promise. Second, he stood on the stage last --
PENCE: He hasn't broken his promise, Senator.
KAINE: He stood on the stage last week and when Hillary said you haven't been paying taxes, he said, that makes me smart. So it's smart not to pay for our military. It's smart not to pay for veterans. It's smart not to pay for teachers.
PENCE: His tax returns showed he went through a very difficult time, but he used the tax code just the way it's supposed to be used and he did it brilliantly.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): As Pence touted the message Trump advisors desperately want their own candidate to make, that they represent change.
PENCE: What you all just heard out there is more taxes, $2 trillion in more spending, more deficits, more debt, more government. And if you think that's all working, then you look at the other side of the table.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): Both candidates asking Americans to trust their candidate and distrust their opponent.
KAINE: We trust Hillary Clinton, my wife and I, and we trust her with the most important thing in our life. We have a son deployed overseas in the Marine Corps right now. We trust Hillary Clinton as President and Commander-in-Chief, but the thought of Donald Trump as Commander- in-Chief scares us to death.
[09:05:04] PENCE: There's a reason why people question the trustworthiness of Hillary Clinton and that's because they're paying attention.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): The fiery debate ending with a testy exchange on abortion and faith.
PENCE: -- that's not to stand with great compassion for the sanctity of life. We can create a culture of life. I believe those children in crisis pregnancies --
KAINE: Why don't you trust women to make this choice for themselves? You know, we can encourage people to support life, of course, we can.
PENCE: Is there --
KAINE: But on fundamental issues of morality --
PENCE: Because, Senator --
KAINE: -- we should let women make their own decisions.
PENCE: Because there is --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTINGLY: And, Carol, as you noted up top, mission accomplished. It's probably the best way to describe how both of these candidates came out of this debate.
Tim Kaine repeatedly bringing up Donald Trump's own words, exactly what the Clinton campaign wanted him to do. Mike Pence, the poised, calm, steady figure on the ticket, something Trump advisers afterwards were absolutely thrilled with. It's something you're going to hear, I think, repeatedly on the campaign trail from Pence going forward here in Virginia today, then Pennsylvania later this afternoon. Both candidates acquitting themselves well.
Now, the question is, can their running mates do the same? Carol.
COSTELLO: We'll see. Phil Mattingly reporting live for us this morning. Thank you.
Even before the debate began, you knew how the night would end. Both campaigns would claim victory. Here's the post-debate photo of Donald Trump calling Mike Pence. But here's a twist, campaign insiders tell CNN that Trump could be upset that Pence actually did too good of a job. We'll have more on that in a moment.
And Hillary Clinton also took to Twitter praising her running mate and saying, quote, lucky to have a partner like Tim Kaine who stood up for our shared vision tonight instead of trying to deny it.
CNN's Sunlen Serfaty live in Philadelphia where Kaine holds an event later today with more on that. Good morning.
SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, too, Carol. Well, if there's one thing that we know about Donald Trump, it's that this is a man that does not like to be upstaged. And at least one senior Trump campaign official telling CNN that the fact that Mike Pence had such a solid debate performance last night isn't sitting well with Donald Trump.
That said, the Trump campaign, of course, is trying to capitalize on Mike Pence's debate performance last night, and also trying to make an issue out of Tim Kaine's aggressiveness last night up on stage where he interrupted many times at many, many points throughout the debate. That's something that team Clinton is trying to spin as a positive.
Here's reactions from both campaigns.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KELLYANNE CONWAY, TRUMP CAMPAIGN MANAGER: Donald Trump and Mike Pence are very different people. They have different styles. They have different styles of debating.
I can't imagine Secretary Clinton is happy with her running mate Tim Kaine tonight. He interrupted Governor Pence. When he wasn't interrupting the female moderator, he was interrupting Governor Pence.
JOHN PODESTA, CHAIRMAN, CLINTON CAMPAIGN: Look, I think he was the aggressor tonight. And I think that he did a great job both in explaining what he and Hillary wanted to do for the American people. I think that he challenged Governor Pence to defend the kind of hateful campaign that Donald Trump has run. And time and again, he, Governor Pence, took a dive.
(END VIDEO CLIP) SERFATY: Now, on this issue of Tim Kaine's many interruptions last night, although the Clinton campaign is trying to celebrate it as an aggressiveness that he brought up there last night, he did receive some negative attention for it all.
Check out this tweet from Republican Governor Mike Huckabee. He tweets, quote, Tim Kaine seems to think a VP serves the same function for a President as a yappy Chihuahua does for a socialite's purse.
Those certainly are some pretty sassy words, Carol, there and certainly not the narrative that the Clinton campaign wants coming out of their only debate. Carol.
COSTELLO: Those were some pretty sassy words from Mike Huckabee. Thank you very much. Sunlen Serfaty reporting live. So let's talk about all of this.
With me now, Lynn Sweet, Washington bureau chief of "The Chicago Sun- Times." Paul Singer is a Washington correspondent for "USA Today," and Manu Raju is with me. He's CNN's senior political reporter. Welcome to all of you.
OK. So you know I always like to start with the big picture, Manu. So we can all agree that Mike Pence won and Tim Kaine lost, right?
MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: Mm-hmm.
COSTELLO: But does that mean there's a seismic shift in how voters may cast their ballot in November?
RAJU: No, I don't think so. I mean, at the margins, this may make a difference. I think that CNN poll and other polls show that maybe there are some voters who may be more likely to vote for the top of the ticket based on what happened last night.
But the reason why this is effective for Mike Pence is that he effectively changed the narrative. I mean, remember where we were in this presidential campaign just a week ago? Donald Trump was on the downslide. He had a rocky debate performance. He was feuding with Miss Universe, really stepping in it one mistake after another.
Mike Pence, with a solid debate performance, making the argument for his ticket, is effectively able to reset the narrative going forward, and hope that Donald Trump can take the ball and run and not fumble on Sunday.
COSTELLO: Yes, we'll see. So, Lynn, obviously, someone told Tim Kaine to like go after and attack Donald Trump all night long. So, was Tim Kaine actually trying to win this debate or was he trying to just bash Trump?
[09:10:08] LYNN SWEET, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, THE CHICAGO SUN-TIMES: Well, I think he was trying to do both, but his tactic, Carol, of this constant interruption is a tactic that you use at your risk. And I think he paid for it when we look at the public reaction to it. Carol, it's not that he was wrong on his facts. Pence was. But you
get scored in these debates on style as well as substance and that was a big help for Mike Pence coming out ahead on this.
But the main thing is, as you said, in the beginning, the first job both of them did well was, first, do no harm. And as the days go by, it will become more obvious, and I think the Clinton campaign will exploit how Pence did not defend Donald Trump at key moments and how he just sat silently when Kaine, even over aggressively, put out in front of him things that Trump said and he said he didn't.
COSTELLO: Now, it is funny, funny, funny you should mention that, Lynn, because that was my next point. Mike Pence did not defend his candidate and what he likes to say, in a broad-shouldered way, he deflected, he denied, or he simply broke ranks.
One clear example was what Mike Pence said on the subject of Syria and how the United States should deal with Bashar al-Assad. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PENCE: The provocations by Russia need to be met with American strength. And if Russia chooses to be involved and continue, I should say to be involved in this barbaric attack on civilians in Aleppo, the United States of America should be prepared to use military force to strike military targets of the Assad regime, to prevent them from this humanitarian crisis that is taking place in Aleppo.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSTELLO: So, Paul, that's markedly different from what Mr. Trump thinks, right? He wants to work with Russia and how it reacts to ISIS within Syria and especially Bashar al-Assad.
PAUL SINGER, WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT, USA TODAY: Well, Trump has said at times that he'd be willing to use force in Syria as well. I mean, I think the line that really caught my attention the whole night was, at one point, when asked about abortion and punishing women for abortion, Mike Pence said basically, look, Donald Trump is not a professional politician, so he sometimes doesn't say exactly what he means.
And I think the point is well taken, that Pence is the political policy guy who sort of understands the sensitivities and difficulties of getting involved in Syria, of what a war footing might mean for the United States.
That's not really Donald Trump's role in this ticket. Donald Trump's role is to express the sort of general outrage with where America is going. Pence is the guy who brings the sort of solid, conservative policy chops to the table.
COSTELLO: But it's so clearly different from what Donald -- I'll give you another example. Here is what Mike Pence said on nuclear weapons, and then we have Trump's stand on nuclear weapons. And let's just listen and then we'll all talk after. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAINE: But let me tell you what will really make the Middle East dangerous. Donald Trump's idea that more nations should get nuclear weapons.
TRUMP: North Korea has nukes. Japan has a problem with that. I mean, they have a big problem with that.
KAINE: More nations should get nuclear weapons.
PENCE: Don't put words into my mouth.
KAINE: Don't try to defend that.
PENCE: Well, he never said that, Senator.
QUIJANO: All right.
TRUMP: Maybe they would, in fact, be better off if they defend themselves from North Korea. Maybe we would be better off --
CHRIS WALLACE, ANCHOR, FOX NEWS SUNDAY: With nukes?
TRUMP: Including with nukes, yes, including with nukes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSTELLO: So, Manu, I don't even know what to make of it because Mike Pence broke with Donald Trump's policies so many times or didn't explain Donald Trump's policies or kind of deflected. You know, when Tim Kaine kept saying, you know, what about all these insults to women, Mike Pence just changed the subject.
RAJU: Yes, I mean --
COSTELLO: So what are we to make of that?
RAJU: I mean, Mike Pence is in a really difficult, if not impossible, position running with Donald Trump. I mean, Donald Trump has said a lot of things off the cuff, without coming up with clear policy ideas particularly during the primary campaign. He's been a little bit more focused in the general election campaign.
And he's been on both sides of a lot of the issues, too, including on whether or not, you know, women should be punished for having an abortion. First, Donald Trump said yes and then he put out two policy statements afterwards clarifying his position, confusing where he actually stands on that very issue.
So Mike Pence, in a lot of ways, had to try to reconcile that yesterday, and what he chose to do was sidestep.
COSTELLO: So wait, wait. You're saying Mike Pence actually knows that so he's just coming up with his own policies because he's not sure where his own candidate stands? RAJU: It's possible. I can't read his mind, but it certainly seems
that that's one reason why he side stepped it or tried to assert what he thinks the Trump/Pence administration would do if they were elected.
COSTELLO: All right. I have to leave it there because you guys are going to come back and talk some more about other interesting things that happened last night.
[09:14:51] Still to come in the NEWSROOM, calm and steady. Pence wins praise for his debate performance. Could Trump learn a thing or two from his number two heading into next Sunday's presidential debate?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[09:19:08] COSTELLO: Hillary Clinton off the campaign trail today, attending fund-raisers while Donald Trump campaigns in Nevada. This just hours after the showdown between Governor Mike Pence and Senator Tim Kaine.
Kaine acting as the attack dog for Hillary Clinton. Pence more measured, refusing to be baited, a style praised by Republicans, many hoping that style will rub off on Donald Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REINCE PRIEBUS, CHAIR, REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE: When you've never run for office before, the idea of getting hit and pounded, and kind of acting like oh, no problem with that I'm going to ignore that. I'm going to talk about something else, is a very difficult thing to do. And it's difficult for anyone that would even watch this to be able to do. But that's something that takes timed but I think that he's one a great job and I think will do better.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSTELLO: OK. So, imagine, Donald Trump sitting down and studying a tape of Mike Pence, so he can effectively debate Hillary Clinton.
[09:20:01] Will the earth move?
Let's talk about that. I'm joined again by Lynn Sweet, Paul Singer and Manu Raju.
OK. So, Lynn, I want to start with you. Next Sunday's presidential debate is critical for Donald Trump. If he doesn't win that debate, is he toast?
SWEET: Not yet because there will be one more debate where he could reclaim himself. And Carol, if he's studying that tape, I suppose one thing he should learn from it is that you don't interrupt. And you have the discipline that Mark Pence and Hillary Clinton did.
The RNC just a few minutes ago put out a video counting up the times, it was 72, that Kaine interrupted. But the importance of Sunday, though cannot be more overemphasized because Trump makes mistakes all the time.
You know, I'm sorry, when people say well he's new to the game. He's not new anymore. It's been more than a year. It's -- I'm surprised they're still making excuses.
And I'll be short in saying this one last thought here, it's not that he's not a new politician, so he doesn't know how to talk right. I think it's he does say what he means. That's the problem. Not that he doesn't say.
COSTELLO: OK. So, Manu, many people are saying that Donald Trump should sit down and study Mike Pence's performance. And here's exactly why. This is from "The Wall Street Journal." Quote, "If Donald Trump could make the case for Donald Trump half as well as Mike Pence makes the case for Donald Trump, the New York businessman would be well on his way to the White House."
RAJU: And that's exactly how a lot of Republicans feel. Listen to the way Mike Pence talked about Republican values yesterday. He talked about compassionate conservatism if you will, government -- smaller government, fewer regulations, lower taxes.
You don't really hear Donald Trump talking about traditional Republican issues on the campaign trail. On top of that, Mike Pence was, in a lot of ways, unflappable. You didn't really see him get upset when he was being attacked. Or Donald Trump was being attacked relentlessly. We also see when Donald Trump gets attacked, he gets under his skin, and he gets very angry and he says things off the cuff or he does late night Twitter storms.
So, in a lot of ways, Republicans agree with that assessment. He can learn a lot from Mike Pence.
COSTELLO: Paul, here's the thing, John King reported last night that Trump may not be all that happy with Pence's performance because Pence upstaged Trump as a better debater, and let's face it, Pence did not effusively defend his running mate. Will that interfere with Trump taking away the positives from Mike Pence's performance?
SINGER: I don't think so. I mean, look, Mike Pence, if you close your eyes last night, you heard Ronald Reagan, which is what Donald Trump needs. He needs Republicans to remember that they -- he still represents the party of Ronald Reagan. It was the sound. It was the tone. It was the policies. It was the faith, Mr. Pence was able to really express his faith which is something there was some question about how Donald Trump deals with religion and religious issues.
I think ultimately maybe Trump has some jealousy that Pence is so good at this. I doubt it.
The fact of the matter is that Donald Trump's strength is being Donald Trump. That's why he got where he is. I can't imagine he's going to try and remake his image between now and Sunday for a debate with Hillary Clinton. He's going to continue being Donald Trump, the one who is reminding you that you're unhappy, you're unhappy with where the world is going. You're unhappy with America, and Hillary Clinton represents the status quo. That's all Donald Trump has to do. Let Mike Pence be the adult in the room, as it were. That's good for him.
COSTELLO: Yes, but here's the thing, Lynn, Sunday's debate is like a town hall. There's only going to be 40 people in the audience. There will be two moderators. The audience will ask questions of these candidates. They're going to want thoughtful so will that be an added challenge for Donald Trump?
SWEET: Absolutely. I'm glad you brought up format, because this is a big deal. Now, Trump is used to being in a big room, feeding off the energy of a rally.
When you have to look someone in the eye, who talks about perhaps a child who died in Iraq or Afghanistan, when you have to look someone in the eye who is a son or daughter of somebody who immigrated to the United States, and you try to talk to them without compassion, without any empathy, of which he could use more, then he will be in trouble. Hillary Clinton has done these town hall formats for decades, and she knows how to talk to -- no matter what you think of her, she knows how to talk to people. She is empathetic, and that is a skill that will be on display on Sunday night.
COSTELLO: And, and, and you know the event yesterday Manu when Donald Trump was talking about PTSD he was in an intimate setting. He was answering a question directly posed by an audience member. And he kind of messed up his answer.
RAJU: He did. And that's the difference between Donald Trump who is on message, reading from a teleprompter, and the Donald Trump who doesn't read from a teleprompter. He says things off the cuff, sometimes not well formulated policy positions.
[09:25:03] And sometimes he will say something that will get him in trouble, politically.
So, he does not able to rely on the teleprompter during the debate and that's challenge for him. But that's why he actually has done well ahead of the first debate, because he was staying on message, and reading from a teleprompter, staying on script. When he gets off- script, that's when he gets in trouble.
COSTELLO: Not only that, Paul, but this is a town hall. When he was answering that question from that retired veteran of war, right? And that veteran of war was asking about PTSD and Donald Trump said, you know, some guys return and they're not quite strong enough, they can't deal with what the saw over there like it was -- it wasn't -- it was an honest answer probably, and he probably didn't mean to say it quite that way.
And that really is the danger of these intimate town halls, isn't it?
SINGER: That's right. And also keep in mind you know, Donald Trump is not Chris Christie. Chris Christie is the master of these town halls., where he can really engage your questioner one-on-one. You can really sort of bond with them over the concern they have raised. That is not Trump's strong suit. Now, other thing is he can't get in to a sort of pointing finger
pointing match with Hillary Clinton if you're supposed to be engaging the person in the sort of living room setting that is the town hall. So, it's definitely strategically a big challenge for Trump to be able to bond with the people in the audience, and still make his attack on Hillary Clinton at the same time. It can be very challenging and risky for a lot of candidates.
We've seen candidates struggle this before. I mean, I believe it was McCain who had this problem with Barack Obama, you know, not able to sort of meet the audience where they were the way Obama was. So, it's going to be a real challenge.
Now, of course he has an advantage as well that Hillary Clinton is not usually come across as the warmest person in the room, either, but still I think that his risk is becoming bombastic in a small room. It sounds rude. It sounds loud. It sounds impolite.
RAJU: And remember, Carol, also, during the Iowa/New Hampshire primaries this year where typically politicians do this type of town hall formats, Donald Trump really didn't do much of that. He did big rallies. He doesn't really have the kind of practice that a lot of other politicians do by having these one-on-one settings, town hall settings, so it could be a very big challenge for him on Sunday.
COSTELLO: OK, I have to leave it there. Thanks to all of you, Lynn Sweet, Paul Singer, and Manu Raju. Thanks so much.
Still to come in the NEWSROOM, mandatory evacuations as Hurricane Matthew heads toward the United States. We'll have the latest for you, next.
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