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Fmr. CIA Director: Putin Has Played Trump "Like a Fiddle"; Trump: Groping Allegations "Completely False"; Trump Says Ahead of Next Debate Candidates Be Drug Tested; Trump Disputes Accusers Coming Forward; Clinton Ahead in Latest Poll; More Hacked Clinton Camp E- mails Revealed by WikiLeaks. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired October 15, 2016 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[13:00:00] JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Multiple current U.S. officials with knowledge of the investigation say there is growing evidence that Russia is using WikiLeaks as a vehicle to make the stolen vehicles and cooperation.
How does this work? Former NSA and CIA director, Michael Hayden, told CBS, the cyber attack begins with Russian criminal games.
GEN. MICHAEL HAYDEN, FORMER NSA DIRECTOR: The actual theft is being done by Russian criminal gangs on behalf of the Russian state at the direction of the Russian state. It's a bit of a cut-out of plausible deniability and they are pushing in the direction of WikiLeaks and letting them push them into the public domain.
SCIUTTO (on camera): The Trump campaign dismissed suggestion that the Russians are trying to help Donald Trump win the election. And Donald Trump himself raised questions about whether Russia is involved at all in the hacks themselves -- Fred?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you so much, Jim Sciutto.
We have so much more straight ahead in the next hour of the NEWSROOM, which begins right now.
Hello again. Thank you for joining us. I'm Fredricka Whitfield.
Donald Trump continues his full-on attack of the eight women now accusing him of sexual misconduct and the journalists reporting the stories. Trump is speaking right now at a rally in Portsmouth, New Hampshire. Take a listen to what he said a few minutes ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: These allegations have been, many of them already proven so false. And, in fact, the other one with "people" magazine, the butler said it was a total lie. Remember the butler? The butler said it was a total lie. We can't let them get away with this, folks. We can't. Total lies
you have been seeing, total lies. We are going to stop it. We are not going to back down. And remember this, it's a rigged election, because you have phony coming up with phony allegations with no witnesses, whatsoever, ending up from 20 years ago, 30 years ago.
How about this crazy woman on the airplane? OK? I mean, can anybody believe that one? How about this, after 15 minutes, --we don't know each other, after 15 minutes she said that was too much. 15 minutes? With the ladies in this place, it would be one second, and it would be smack.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WHITFIELD: Sara Murray was at that and is still at that rally. She's joining us live from Portsmouth.
So, Sara, he certainly said a lot of things that were enticing to the crowd there.
SARA MURRAY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Fred, so much for staying on message, though. Donald Trump went into yet another defense saying that the sexual assault allegations against him aren't true, trying to undermine the credibility of a number of women who made the allegations, even calling one of them crazy. But he also went after his opponent, Hillary Clinton, essentially saying at the end of the debate her energy seemed to be flagging part way through the debate, sort of mocking her energy level near the end. And he even suggesting that maybe ahead of the next debate they should be drug tested.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: But, athletes, they make them take a drug test, right? I think we should take a drug test prior to the debate. I do.
(CHEERING)
TRUMP: I think we should -- why don't we do that? We should take a drug test prior. Because I don't know what's going on with her. But, at the beginning of her last debate, she was all pumped up at the beginning, and at the end, it was like, oh, take me down. She could barely reach her car. So, I think we should take a drug test. Anyway, I'm willing to do it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MURRAY: Now, of course, we're a few days away from the third and final presidential debate. That is on Wednesday in Las Vegas. Donald Trump took a swipe at Hillary Clinton, mocking the amount of debate prep she's been doing, saying she's just been resting. As for Trump, he's had a vigorous campaign schedule and is relying on that rather than a lot of traditional campaign prep ahead of Wednesday.
Back to you, Fred.
WHITFIELD: Sara, thank you very much. Appreciate that. Trump is also claiming the Clinton campaign and the media have created
this whole controversy.
We bring in historian Mr. Julian Zelizer; and Democratic strategist, Maria Cardona, a CNN political commentator and Clinton supporter; and CNN political commentator and Trump supporter, Jeffrey Lord.
OK. Good to see all of you.
(CROSSTALK)
WHITFIELD: We have a lot to chew on. Where do we begin?
Julian, let's begin with you.
Donald Trump is tossing out a few things, you know, he's talking about the allegations being phony, now he's talking about questioning the stamina in a very different way of Hillary Clinton just now four days ahead of the debate. Why is it Donald Trump and his and that this will, indeed, mean or secure a victory for him?
JULIAN ZELIZER, HISTORIAN 7 PROFESSOR, PRINCETON UNIVERSITY: Well, throughout the campaign, when attacked, Donald Trump responded with attacks that are doubly tough. I think the campaign is aware that these have been very damaging, not just the "Access Hollywood" tape, but the accusations that are emerging. Part of this emerges from the threats that the campaign faces. That said, he is doing exactly what he accused Hillary Clinton of doing with the allegations surrounding Bill Clinton. So, I think it puts him in a different kind of spot.
[13:05:36] WHITFIELD: Jeffrey, respond to that. Some people would use the word in describing that.
MARIA CARDONA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah.
WHITFIELD: Jeffrey?
JEFFREY LORD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, this began months ago when Hillary Clinton said he was a sexist. He hit back. There's something going on. When Donald Trump talks about the collusion between the media and the Clinton campaign and now with the WikiLeaks, we have seen hard evidence of that. The real problem here is what I call from a book by Professor Angelo Codevilla, called "The Ruling Class in America." The rules are different for them than anybody else.
WHITFIELD: But wait a minute, your candidate is exemplifying that.
(CROSSTALK)
WHITFIELD: Hasn't he said Hillary Clinton should measured based on the indiscretions of Bill Clinton 30 years ago and now the accusations about him 20, 30, years ago, 10 years ago, it's irrelevant.
(CROSSTALK)
WHITFIELD: Address that.
LORD: Her role in them. For instance, NBC has the full unedited tape of the Juanita Broaddrick tape they did a long time ago. They should release it. Peggy Noonan, of the "Wall Street Journal" has tweeted out this morning she thinks Michael Isikoff, who investigated the whole Lewinski thing, thinks NBC should release the tape on the spot.
(CROSSTALK)
WHITFIELD: So saying you believe more tapes, whether it be "The Apprentice" or any other NBC video archive, imagery, conversations with Donald Trump --
(CROSSTALK)
LORD: I'm saying they saw fit to somehow make sure this got leaked to "The Washington Post," let's have bipartisanship.
But my real point, Fred, is this. Years ago, the late Michael Kelly, a star reporter for "The New York Times," who, unfortunately, died in the Iraq war, wrote a long profile of then-Senator Ted Kennedy in "G.Q." magazine describing in detail an episode of drunken sexual violence with two U.S. Senators in a restaurant in Washington. Senator Biden and Senator McCain, and later Senators Clinton and Obama did nothing, zero about this.
CARDONA: What?
LORD: In other words, there's two sets of rules.
CARDONA: What?
WHITFIELD: Jeffrey, you're changing the subject.
(CROSSTALK)
WHITFIELD: It's getting more and more complicated as opposed to addressing the issue of why is it OK to accept the eyewitness accounts of some when it involves, you know, Hillary Clinton and Bill Clinton. But then there are accusations coming from first count, you know, eyewitnesses as it pertains to Donald Trump and not being treated the same my your campaign.
LORD: There is an eyewitness. There is an eyewitness to the episode on the plane. That is from a British citizen.
(CROSSTALK)
CARDONA: Because he's so credible.
(CROSSTALK)
WHITFIELD: Yeah, that is voiced on another organization. We have not authenticated that reporting, so --
(CROSSTALK) LORD: Oh, OK.
(CROSSTALK)
WHITFIELD: Maria, are these diversionary tactics. It is getting confusing to the voters 24 days away. Perhaps it's not. Perhaps there's more clarity for voters as to the character of either one of these candidates.
CARDONA: Yes. I think there's a lot more clarity about the character and the heart of Donald Trump. And I will add more clarity. I understand why my friends on the other side are flailing, trying to divert this into who knows what the hell they are talking about these days because their candidate has proven to be nothing less than a degenerate sexual predator who has bragged --
(CROSSTALK)
CARDONA: -- who has bragged out how he likes to grab women's genitals because he's a superstar, he's a celebrity and, quote, "They let you do what you want." That is what the American people are looking at right now, and not just women, but men and everybody out there who understands what it is to be a decent human being does not want somebody who is, you know, out there bragging about how they like to sexually assault women to have a chance at getting to the Oval Office. Even if that wasn't the case, we have known that Donald Trump likes to demean, devalue, degrade women. We have seen it. We have heard it on Howard Stern for the last 30 years. So, let's take Donald Trump at his word. He is who he says he is. And that is why he is in such trouble with women, and that is why women are saying we do not want him as commander-in-chief.
[13:10:11] WHITFIELD: Jeffrey, I'll let you respond to that, quickly. Then we have to go.
LORD: I just want to see the full Juanita Broaddrick interview. I mean, what Maria is describing there is Bill Clinton.
(CROSSTALK)
CARDONA: Guess what, Jeffery --
(CROSSTALK)
CARDONA: -- Bill Clinton is not on the ballot.
ZELIZER: Could I just jump in for a second?
CARDONA: Bill Clinton is not running for president.
WHITFIELD: Yes, Julian. Go ahead, Julian, you get the last word.
(CROSSTALK)
CARDONA: Bill Clinton is not running for president.
ZELIZER: A correction, the media did actually pay more than enough attention to Bill Clinton's personal life to Ted Kennedy.
CARDONA: Exactly.
ZELIZER: So the issue is really about Donald Trump. What's concerning people about his response is his decision to go after the women, to mock the women's looks. That's very different than denying this took place. He's taking it to another level.
(CROSSTALK)
ZELIZER: But the idea the media didn't cover that is erroneous.
CARDONA: Yeah.
WHITFIELD: We'll leave it there. We'll get an opportunity, I am certain, within the next 24 day to talk about this and other matters for sure.
Thanks to all of you.
CARDONA: Thanks, Fred.
WHITFIELD: Straight ahead, multiple women accusing Donald Trump of being inappropriate, offensive. The details of what they are all claiming, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: Welcome back. I'm Fredricka Whitfield.
Trump on the campaign trail today. He is denying allegations of sexual misconduct, calling accusers, quote, "horrible liars" who are seeking fame or attention. Each time an accusers comes forward with their story, the Trump campaign has responded with specific reasoning and alibis to dispute them.
CNN's Ed Lavandera has more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
[13:14:57] ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The first of eight accusers publicly came forward Wednesday night of this week. Mindy McGilvray was one of them. For her, it was the presidential debate in St. Louis that prompted her to speak out. She couldn't believe what she just heard.
MINDY MCGILVRAY, ACCUSES TRUMP OF SEXUAL MISCONDUCT: We heard Anderson Cooper ask him a number of times, you know, this is something that you did? Did you grope women? Did you kiss them? He adamantly says no. I jumped off of my couch and I was like, you are a liar.
LAVANDERA: Summer Zervos once appeared as a guest on Trump's show. After being kicked off the show, Zervos was in talks with Trump about working for his company. He asked to meet her at the Beverly Hills hotel. SUMMER ZERVOS, ACCUSES TRUMP OF SEXUAL MISCONDUCT: He kissed me open-
mouthed. I tried to push him away. I pushed his chest to put space between us. I said come on, man get real. He repeated my words back to me, "Get real," as he thrust his genitals.
KRISTEN ANDERSON, ACCUSES TRUMP OF SEXUAL MISCONDUCT: I was very young.
LAVANDERA: In the early 1990s, Kristen Anderson was an aspiring model in New York. According to "The Washington Post," Anderson had never met or seen Donald Trump in person until he sat down next to her in a dance club.
ANDERSON: The person on my right who unbeknownst to me at that time was Donald Trump put their hand up my skirt.
LAVANDERA: Temple Taggert is a former Miss Utah. She said, without her consent, Trump kissed her on the lips immediately after meeting her in 1997.
Rachel Crooks told "The New York Times" that Trump kissed her inappropriately in 2005.
Natasha Stoynoff, a writer for "People" magazine, says Trump kissed her at a reporting assignment in Florida.
And Jessica Leeds says Trump grabbed her breast and put his hands up her skirt on a plane in the early 1980s.
Donald Trump again Friday denied the allegations and described it as a smear campaign.
TRUMP: I don't know who these people are. I look on television, I think it's a disgusting thing.
LAVANDERA: Which is how Mindy McGilvray says Trump treated her backstage after a concert at the Mar-a-Lago estate. She was there with a friend waiting to get her picture taken with the singer and Trump grabbed her from behind.
MCGILVRAY: He didn't give me second glance. He knew what he did. I know he knew who he did. I could tell by looking at his smug face. I said Donald just grabbed my ass. He was like, what do you want to do about it? I was like, I was silent, you know. I don't want to do anything.
LAVANDERA: She says she regrets not confronting the billionaire on the spot.
And despite Trump's insistence he treats women with respect, all the women that came forward say he treated them like objects that he can have his way with.
LAVANDERA (on camera): What would you tell Donald Trump today?
MCGILVRAY: You are a sick, sick person. If you don't acknowledge it then maybe he's a helpless old man who needs to step down.
LAVANDERA (voice-over): Ed Lavandera, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WHITFIELD: Coming up, WikiLeaks releasing more hacked e-mails, allegedly from the Clinton campaign. The latest ones suggest staffers worried about seeming too friendly with Wall Street. We'll explain that, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:23:04] WHITFIELD: Welcome back. Just three weeks to the election and a new national poll has Hillary Clinton leading Donald Trump by seven points. These numbers coming after a hot mic caught Trump making lewd comments back in 2005.
I want to bring in political historian, Julian Zelizer.
Julian, Donald Trump continuing his attack on the women who accused him. We are talking eight women who accused him of sexual misconduct. You just spoke moments ago, kind of about the hypocrisy of it all, how he brought Bill Clinton into the equation. You know, with his opponent, and now he's under the microscope for something 20 years ago, 10 years ago. Why is it Donald Trump now believes this is the strategy that best behooves him?
ZELIZER: Part of it, I think, is a sense of desperation, frankly. This is a very difficult moment in the campaign. He is lashing out against it's the media or the accusers. Are the ones that are wrong, not him. That's really at the core. Every time he is attacked by someone, the goal is to undermine the legitimacy of the person. They have come together.
WHITFIELD: Another way he is trying to undermine his competition, Hillary Clinton, he said while in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, he was talking about her demeanor, how she seemed pumped up at the last debate and the energy level went down and now being an advocate for drug testing and we are four days away from the last presidential debate. What is behind all of that, do you believe?
ZELIZER: I think this is schoolyard politics. I think the mocking people, the raising allegations, the candidate doing something like that with the drug testing, that's the kind of politics that doesn't play well outside your core supporters. It comes back to this basic issue of Trump running his campaign in the final few weeks only to appeal to the people already like him. Those numbers are not enough to win the election.
WHITFIELD: Clinton commented about the allegations saying this is a very serious topic, something she takes seriously. Her surrogates from the president to the first lady had profound comments. Now, days away from the debate, private fundraising. But in large part, would you classify Hillary Clinton as being quiet on the issue, that this is terms in terms of her strategy and not to become a distraction in all of this or add to it. ZELIZER: Yes, I think you saw that from the first debate where her general demeanor was to be a stay quiet. She sees an opponent who is imploding, so the strategy, on her part, is to let him do that. There is no gain in her mind from intervening, from becoming the subject, and she's willing to sit aside and watch as he continues to spin this campaign out of control in the minds of observers, including Republicans.
[13:25:14] WHITFIELD: Voters, you know, we have heard from a number of voter who want to hear issues and they don't feel they are getting it from either candidate, when you have these latest allegation by women of the latest s dominating the air waves and discussion. Do you believe voters are going to get a chance to hear about anything else substantive from either candidate on the plans, policies, et cetera, or will it be a tit-for-tat?
ZELIZER: I don't know. I think this raised a serious issue of sexual harassment, sexual assault, treatment of women in the workplace, which is very serious. It's part of why the issue resonates more than a small scandal that he faces. I think there's room for Hillary Clinton about issues she wants to convince voters she will bring to the table. There's a danger of being too silent, especially when you are not the most popular candidate in the world and not selling a vision, rather only focusing on the flaws of the opponent.
WHITFIELD: So your view both of them are working on a message regardless of what they asked four days from now during that presidential debate?
ZELIZER: I think they are. I honestly don't know with Donald Trump. My guess is he will continue with the attack-the-institution strategy. That's the basic message he has. I think Hillary Clinton will try to carve out a space to bring up one or two of the issues she wants to fight for if she was president. So, there will be a difference, my guess is, in the demeanor and tenor of their presentations during that debate.
WHITFIELD: Julian Zelizer, thank you so much. Appreciate it.
ZELIZER: Thank you.
WHITFIELD: Of course, I want to mention, tomorrow, on "State of the Union, Jake Tapper will talk to Nancy Pelosi. That airs at 9:00 a.m., Sunday, right here on CNN.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:30:28] WHITFIELD: Welcome back to the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Fredricka Whitfield.
More hacks e-mails published by WikiLeaks shows Hillary Clinton aides allegedly debated whether Bill Clinton should make a paid speech back to a Wall Street firm back in 2016. Mrs. Clinton pushed back at first, but eventually agreed. Mrs. Clinton's camp is keeping mostly mum on the e-mails, releasing this statement, in short, "We are not confirming whether or not the WikiLeaks documents are authentic, therefore, we are not commenting on their content."
CNN Chris Frates has more from Washington on all of this -- Chris?
CHRIS FRATES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Fred. These hacked e-mails from Hillary Clinton's campaign chief continuing to dog her campaign and exposing the behind-the-scenes machinations on some of the most sensitive issues, including transcripts of speeches to wall street behemoth, Goldman Sachs, or this e-mail chain from March 2015 where top staffers discuss whether Bill Clinton should give a paid speech to another Wall Street titan, Morgan Stanley.
Huma Abedin, one of Clinton's closes advisers, e-mailed saying this, quote, "HRC very strongly did not want him to cancel that particular speech," to which campaign manager, Robby Mook, replied, saying, "I know this is not the answer she wants, but I feel very strongly that doing the speech is a mistake." They data are clear on the potential consequences. "It will be three days after she's announced and on her first day in Iowa where caucus goers have a negative view of Wall Street then the rest of the electorate." Abedin responds back saying, "Robby, just raised with her again. We are good to cancel, especially if WJC" -- a reference to Bill Clinton -- "is OK with it."
The Clinton camp is not saying whether the e-mails are authentic. If they are, they provide a look inside the campaign that is clearly concerned with how the speech would play with primary voters, sweating the perception more than the substance -- Fred?
WHITFIELD: Do we know the answer whether he did do the speech or not?
FRATES: He did not.
WHITFIELD: Chris Frates, thank you so much.
FRATES: You are welcome.
WHITFIELD: Also revealed in that leak, e-mails from Clinton's campaign chair who called former Governor Bill Richardson among the needy Latino. We'll get Bill Richardson's response in just a bit.
Coming up, a heart-wrenching story about a father in prison for allegedly breaking his son's bones. New evidence in the case could shatter his conviction and prove a crime was never committed. That story, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:36:41] WHITFIELD: A central Florida man is serving 70n years in prison for a crime he says he didn't commit. New evidence is surfacing that could not only prove his innocence, but also that no crime was ever committed at all. That evidence is being presented in court on Monday.
CNN's Jean Casarez has been digging into this for months.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Jim Duncan was convicted of aggravated child abuse 21 years ago. Prosecutors say he broke the bones of his infant son. But Duncan has maintained his innocence from the very start. Even shooting down any possibility of a plea deal when his case first went to trial two decades ago.
Now, with a new lawyer and what could be new medical science, Duncan is hoping he will get a new trial. His lawyer is taking the case to the court of appeal next week. It is the story of broken bones that is ultimately shattered many lives.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RHONDA DUNCAN, MOTHER OF CODY DUNCAN: We were in a waiting room and then some doctor comes in and starts screaming at both of us and saying that we hurt our child.
JAMES DUNCAN, CONVICTED ON CHILD ABUSE: The conclusion was that this was definitely abuse.
CELESTE DUNCAN, MOTHER OF JAMES DUNCAN: All I could think about was oh, my god, he's going to die in there, never seeing his kids.
(LAUGHTER)
RHONDA DUNCAN: Neither one of us hurt him.
JAMES DUNCAN: My name is James Duncan. I was convicted of child abuse. I did not do this. I am innocent. I did not harm my son.
CASAREZ (voice-over): The relentless Florida sun beats down on the Avon Park Prison for another day. For inmate James S. Duncan, it may as well be eternity in hell.
JAMES DUNCAN: The prime of my life is gone.
CASAREZ: Dun imprisoned at 29 is 70-year sentence, convicted of aggravated child abuse upon his infant son, Cody.
In the early '90s, they were a happy family. 24-year-old Jim and his wife Rhonda, just 21, were living in St. Petersburg, Florida.
(MUSIC)
CASAREZ: They had a 2-year-old son named Kevin. Two years later, Cody Duncan was born, February 8, 1993. As the weeks went on, Rhonda realized something was very wrong with Cody.
RHONDA DUNCAN: I kept bringing him to the doctor and saying my baby is crying all the time.
CASAREZ: He wasn't using the left side of his body.
RHONDA DUNCAN: So I called Jimmy and told him that the doctor said take him to emergency room. He goes OK, I'll meet you there. CASAREZ: It was there life came crashing down when a doctor delivered
gut wrenching news.
RHONDA DUNCAN: He threw up these x-rays and said Cody had 13 broken bones and a skull fracture. And they told me the police were coming. So, there was a detective and there were police. I really didn't know what was going on. I was a young kid. And these people ruined my life.
[13:40:40] CASAREZ: Jim's mother, Celeste, remembers it well.
(on camera): There were three people designated as suspects. Who were they?
CELESTE DUNCAN: Me, my son and Rhonda.
CASAREZ: Did you say, what happened to Cody?
JAMES DUNCAN: Yeah, I always thought I failed, as a father, to protect my son. I didn't know what happened to him.
CASAREZ (voice-over): A mystery to the family, especially since Cody didn't have bruises or internal injuries to his soft tissue.
What no one knew at the time, one person had stepped forward to police. That person, Doris Kibbe, Rhonda's grandmother. She told authorities she was an eyewitness to Jim harming his son.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want you to start from the beginning of when you first had contact with Cody --
CASAREZ: This is 1994 police video obtained by CNN where Doris describes to detectives what she saw Jim do.
DORIS KIBBE, RHONDA DUNCAN'S GRANDMOTHER: I walked in. He took the baby and did this with it.
CASAREZ: Two days later, they charged Jim Duncan with 13 counts of aggravated child abuse. There was one problem, Doris wasn't telling the truth.
(on camera): Do you think Jimmy was charged because of that lie?
RHONDA DUNCAN: I do. Yes, of course.
CASAREZ (voice-over): Members say Doris made up the story in a moment of panic to protect Rhonda and keep the kids from being put in foster care because police would have a man.
In an interview with CNN, Doris, now 87, admits Jim never touched Cody.
KIBBE: I said I'll swear on my grave and everything else Jim did not hurt him.
CASAREZ: Doris later recanted her statement to law enforcement. It was never used in the case. The damage was already done. Prosecutors moved forward to trial.
Jim was convicted on all counts and sentenced to 70 years in prison.
And that baby, at the heart of it all, had his bones heal and he grew up, graduated from college last year.
Cody Duncan is now 23 years old and says he knows his father was wrongly convicted.
(on camera): Did your father abuse you when you were a little baby?
CODY DUNCAN, SON OF JAMES DUNCAN: No. I don't believe so.
CASAREZ: You never had a doubt?
CODY DUNCAN: I never once had a doubt that he hurt me. I don't believe it.
CASAREZ (voice-over): If so, why then did infant Cody have so many bone fractures?
More than 1,000 miles away in Springfield, Illinois, radiologist, Dr. David Ayoub, researches metabolic bone disease. The family believes he has the explanation of what happened to Cody.
DR. DAVID AYOUB, METABOLIC BONE DISEASE RESEARCHER: The healing has already started at this point.
CASAREZ: Ayoub is one of the main authors of a 2014 study. In a peer-reviewed paper, Ayoub and his colleagues looked at previous studies of infant fractures determined to be from abuse. The findings, the findings likely came from bone disease.
These are the X-rays of Cody's fractures from 1993.
(on camera): Can you say to a degree of medical certainty Cody Duncan has metabolic bone disease?
AYOUB: Absolutely. No question he had metabolic bone disease.
CASAREZ (voice-over): Ayoub believes Cody had infantile rickets, a disease of early life in which bones do not mineralize properly.
AYOUB: That's the description of fractures in children of compromised bone strength. Many of their bones are weak. They are not fragile for a day or two. They are fragile over a period of time.
CASAREZ: He says babies with the disease have bone so fragile, even regular handling can cause a break. Those fractures, he says, are often misdiagnosed as abuse.
LISABETH FRYER, JAMES DUNCAN'S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: This is the case of a wrongfully convicted man. No victim or crime.
CASAREZ: Florida defense attorney, Lisabeth Fryer, is working to get the conviction overturned. She says Dr. Ayoub's research is new science and will prove the factures were medical in nature, not criminal.
(on camera): You petition the court. What do you want them to do?
FRYER: Look at the evidence. Hear the testimony of the doctors. Learn about the diagnosis and the science and find that this would have made a difference in the trial and grant Mr. Duncan a new trial.
[13:45:05] CASAREZ (voice-over): CNN reached out to trial prosecutor, Diane Bailey Morton. She declined our request for interview.
In 1996, Florida pediatrician, Dr. Mark Morris, was the head of the local child protection team. He examined Cody and testified that Cody's fractures were caused by abuse. He stands by his testimony.
DR. MARK MORRIS, PEDIATRICIAN: No alternative explanation, no history consistent with accidental injury and the type of injuries themselves. So, if you put all those factors together, then you get the diagnosis of child abuse.
JAMES DUNCAN: Love you.
CODY DUNCAN: Love you, too.
JAMES DUNCAN: All right. Bye-bye.
CODY DUNCAN: Bye.
CASAREZ: This is all Cody has known for 20 years, two phone calls a week with his father.
CODY DUNCAN: I wish I could talk to him in person. It hurts because I don't -- I just wish I could see my dad.
CASAREZ (on camera): Cody Duncan is leading the crusade to get his father's conviction overturned. Jim Duncan is now appealing to the Second District Court of Appeal in Florida, asking for another chance to have a new trial. That appeal will be filed within days.
Back to you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WHITFIELD: Thank you so much, Jean.
This case is bringing up a lot of legal questions. Next, the panel discusses the steps ahead for Jim Duncan.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:50:15] WHITFIELD: Welcome back. Before the break, you saw the complicated legal case of Jim Duncan, a father from Florida behind bars, who says he was wrongfully convicted of aggravated child decades ago, but this Monday, his new lawyer, armed with fresh evidence, takes the case to an appellate court.
Let's bring in our legal guys, Avery Friedman, a civil rights attorney and law professor joining us from Cleveland.
Good to see you.
And Richard Herman, a New York criminal attorney and law professor joining us from Las Vegas.
Good to see you as well.
RICHARD HERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY & LAW PROFESSOR: Thanks, Fred.
WHITFIELD: So, Avery, you first.
You know, how likely is it that Duncan would be able to get a new trial 21 years later and now, a doctor is willing to say there's a thing such as child may have had that condition, meaning bones were easy to break.
AVERY FRIEDMAN, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY & LAW PROFESSOR: The grandest aspiration of the law is to seek truth and get to the truth. The difficulty here is that the arrest was predicated on a lie of the mother-in-law and then you had the expert testimony of Dr. Mark Morris, who ascribed the injuries as broken bones and, again, you couple that with the grandmother or the mother-in-law and that's where the conviction is. The problem in the case is that there is one expert and he has been advancing this idea that you can't tell infantile rickets in an x-ray. You can't see that healing rather than broken bones. The problem with that, in case after case, and I've looked at cases from New Jersey to Illinois and courts basically have discredited that testimony. So, number one, he should get a hearing. But, number two, it's unlikely, unfortunately, that he is going to be successful in this effort to free himself.
WHITFIELD: So, I wonder, you know, Richard, could it be as simple as, you know, a blood test on this young man who is now in his early 20s, would there be anything in his blood testing that would help substantiate whether he had infantile rickets, and that alone might be what this family needs to help prove the case in the favor of Mr. Dunn.
HERMAN: Well, the new doctor, defense expert, has said he's looked at the x-rays and, based on his interpretation of those, he's 100 percent certain it's infantile disease.
WHITFIELD: Because there's no bruising that would be associated with a break caused by something external. No bruising on the skin or layers above the bones.
HERMAN: Right. And the problem is the grandmother lied. The district attorney, then the grandmother recanted, and her testimony was not used at trial. The district attorney relied entirely on the medical expert who cam up with this finding which he's come up with every time he's testified. The defense attorney did not have this testimony when he went to trial. And under Florida law, two rounds to reverse a conviction, Fred, ineffective stance of counsel means the defense attorney blew it and newly discovered evidence. Will the appellate division this diagnosis of infantile rickets is newly discovered evidence, that's the test. We'll see what happens.
WHITFIELD: Avery, how complicated is it when a used to help convict someone, many years later or even after the fact is, it's then recanted, what about the believability of the recanted statement as opposed to the original statement that further indicts somebody?
FRIEDMAN: Right. The mother-in-law first said he didn't, and she said he didn't. I see no value in her testimony.
The fact is though that you need to look -- and I think this is where prosecutors are going to go. You're going to look at the expert testimony that the expert the Duncan family is going to use. No court that I've found -- again, I've looked at different states, it may be out there. I haven't one court that buys the theory that's being advanced by the defense here. And while he should get the hearing, Fredricka, I don't think it's to be successful.
WHITFIELD: Wow.
And so, Richard, what do you think?
HERMAN: At minimum, Fred, at a minimum, had the defense have this alternate theory and presented it at trial, it could have raised reasonable doubt in front of the jury. You've had two conflicting experts with their diagnosis, that's reasonable doubt and could have brought an acquittal or a hung jury. That's what the appellate division will have to consider and determine, whether they have to vacate and give him other shot at it.
WHITFIELD: Sad case all the way around.
Thank you very much, Richard and Avery. Always good to see you. Appreciate it.
(CROSSTALK)
[13:54:59] WHITFIELD: So much more straight ahead in the NEWSROOM. It starts after this.
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WHITFIELD: Thank you so much for being with me. I'm Fredricka Whitfield.
We're just 24 days away from choosing the next president of the United States. Taking a look at live pictures now, because right there, this afternoon, Donald Trump has been speaking, will be speaking in Bangor, Maine, this location here. But last hour, he held a rally in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, where he continued his full-on attack of eight women accusing him of sexual misconduct and the journalists reporting their stories. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: These allegations have been, many of them already proven so false. And, in fact, the other one with "people" magazine, the butler said it was a total lie. Remember the butler? The butler said it was a total lie.
We can't let them get away with this, folks. We can't.
(CHEERING)
TRUMP: Total lies you have been seeing, total lies. We are going to stop it. We are not going to back down. And remember this, it's a rigged election, because you have phony people coming up with phony allegations with no witnesses, whatsoever, ending up from 20 years ago, 30 years ago.
How about this crazy woman on the airplane? OK? I mean, can anybody believe that one?
