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Fighting ISIS; Evangelical Vote; Trump Says Election Rigged Against Him. Aired 15-15:30p ET

Aired October 17, 2016 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:03]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Chris, welcome.

CHRIS ASHBY, GOP CAMPAIGN LAWYER: Thanks for having me, Brooke.

BALDWIN: By the way, I talked to the secretary of state in Ohio last hour, who is a Republican. He would agree with you.

Why did your law firm feel the need to do this?

ASHBY: I think, as lawyers, we have a special obligation to the rule of law and to our system of laws, of which our system of elections and voting is a part, to defend that system when it's attacked unfairly and in an unfounded way, as Donald Trump has been doing for the past several days.

BALDWIN: Your law firm retweeted this article from "The Boston Globe" which includes quotes from Trump supporters openly talking about violent rebellion and even Hillary Clinton's assassination in the event that Donald Trump does not win.

I can't believe we're here. What do you think of those fears? What do you think of how this language is, as it's been put forth, dangerous?

ASHBY: Well, I can't believe we're hearing it either. And it is dangerous language in any number of respects that you just highlighted.

One important respect is going to be in the polling place on Election Day. Donald Trump has called for his supporters to go to the polls and watch what happens in certain places, as he calls them. When his supporters arrive, they're going to be disappointed and upset to learn that they're not going to be allowed in.

They're not going to be allowed in because you just can't walk into a voting place in most states and stand around and watch things. You need to be appointed. You need to have a credential. You need to be trained. You need to be understand the process.

Even in those few states the public that will allow any member of the public to watch in -- and watch what happens, they're not going to get anywhere near voting. And if they try to interfere with voting in any way, if they try to communicate with voters or election officials, they're going to be taken out and removed.

And so that has the potential to create a dangerous security situation in polling places, because when you take these folks out, when you take them away, it's just going to reinforce the fears that have been stoked that the election is rigged and there's something untoward happening in the polling place. And it's very dangerous.

BALDWIN: Yes. It's up to supporters to believe you or to believe Donald Trump.

But, Chris, if you could talk to Trump one-on-one, what would you say to convince him and how would you explain it for skeptical Americans who don't really buy it?

ASHBY: Well, I would come at it in two ways.

Number one, this system is not rigged and it can't be rigged. There are instances out there of actual voter fraud. These are confirmed instances where people have attempted to cheat and succeeded at cheating. That happens, but that is not the same thing as a rigged election.

To say that election is rigged is to say that outcome has been predetermined, and that your votes don't matter and won't be counted because somebody else has decided the way that election should go. And that's just not the case. Our election system is quite the opposite.

It's designed to prevent and to stop and to catch that. The second thing I would say is just at a very granular level, you know, you walk into a polling place, you will see teams of election officials. These are ordinary citizens, working in teams of two in most places, one Republican and one Democrat, processing voters, checking I.D.s in states where that is required, making sure they're on the list.

Over their shoulders will be another team of individuals, Republicans and Democrats who have been appointed by local parties and candidates to observe the election. And then you have got state election administrators in there watching everything and then any members of the public.

And so to rig an election like this, you would have to have this vast bipartisan conspiracy of everybody who was in the polling place across multiple polling places. And then you might have to have Tom Cruise come down from the ceiling on a rope with Ving Rhames in the white van outside programming machines that aren't networked.

BALDWIN: You joke. It's serious stuff. But I appreciate you.

We saw your 33 tweets, boom, boom, boom, boom. You're fired up. You should be. Thank you for coming on and setting the record straight. Chris Ashby, thank you so much.

ASHBY: Thanks for having me.

BALDWIN: Let me now bring in two conservative voices now. Brian Tierney served in Republican campaigns and administrations, and marketing executive and former publisher for "The Philadelphia Inquirer."

BRIAN TIERNEY, MARKETING EXECUTIVE: Hello. How are you?

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Hello.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Are we good, guys.

TIERNEY: We're good.

BALDWIN: OK. Lawrence Jones is with us, host for The Blaze TV and Radio and a conservative commentator.

Brian, let me just begin with you.

For Trump to say that system is rigged, what are we, 22 days out? Why?

TIERNEY: Yes.

It -- well, first of all, just pragmatically, it's not rigged. The system is not rigged. "The New York Times" is not out to get him. All that's just -- and I can tell you just from a purely marketing standpoint, too, one of the things I learned as a young man working at the Republican National Committee is you win with 50 percent plus one.

You don't win with -- So, he's speaking to the base. He's exciting the base. But he's also playing into the Clinton narrative that he's unhinged. And I think there's an ugliness about the campaign.

[15:05:10]

I was in the arena when Ronald Reagan took the nomination in 1980 as a young man. There were a certain sense of he played to his base, but he also he talked about optimism and hope. And Donald Trump has -- his advisers must feel like pulling their hair out. He has to get beyond this and start talking about other things to build a winning coalition or he's going to lose.

BALDWIN: Lawrence, I was talking to a Trump surrogate last hour who was saying he's saying all of this because he's trying to get folks out to the polls.

But you talk to others who say, no, he's trying to depress the vote. That was part of the -- there was a piece in "The Wall Street Journal" last week where an adviser was saying his strategy is to depress the Democratic vote. What do you think he's thinking?

LAWRENCE JONES, THE BLAZE TV: I don't know. I think he sees the writing on the wall. It's pretty clear that many people are upset, especially after the most recent comments.

Even conservatives that supported him in the beginning are withdrawing their support. I even see some of them now trying to compare what he's doing right now to the hip-hop community, a conservative that never listened to hip-hop before.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: How is that parallel?

JONES: Yes, that's what I'm trying to figure out.

They compare what he did to the hip-hop community as somehow justification to entertainment. So, I'm not sure what path Donald Trump has right now. I try to be objective and give him a shot, but I think he's running into a brick wall.

BALDWIN: OK.

TIERNEY: Yes, no message discipline at all.

BALDWIN: OK.

(CROSSTALK)

TIERNEY: He's bouncing everywhere.

BALDWIN: But you still have his high-profile surrogates, the Rudy Giulianis, the Newt Gingriches. They're taking the rigged line, they're running with it. They're running with it, Brian.

TIERNEY: Yes.

But that's only three voices. So what he needs to do is to have a message that appeals to a broader coalition that gets other Republican governors, other voices. Otherwise, he's going to really own about 42 percent of the vote, and he's going to get -- he's going to get clobbered, just purely from a marketing perspective, let alone where you believe.

BALDWIN: Go ahead, Lawrence.

JONES: Here's the reality, Brooke, and this is my perspective.

I think Trump voters and a lot of the Republican Party got played. There is a lot of people that I believe -- I believe the media in a certain part of the media -- I'm not saying all of the media -- propped Trump up and they let him implode. They gave him all this media coverage and then in the general, they just let him explode.

There were people that could have actually won this election, but, instead, people were so angry, they put this guy that didn't even do oppo research on himself and they waited. We saw this in WikiLeaks. This was their strategy. They wanted this guy to implode in the general election. Let him win the primary, cater him to the media, and put him on a platter to explode. (CROSSTALK)

TIERNEY: At least they have a strategy. It doesn't seem like Trump has a strategy.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: But everything that Lawrence just laid out, Brian, you know, you look at -- and I realize some people say polls-schmolls, but some of these numbers matter, because when you look at some of these battleground polls that have just come out, you have three states, look at this, Nevada, North Carolina, Ohio, key states to get to the White House, and it's not quite the apocalypse maybe for the Trump team that Hillary Clinton's camp would have you believe.

How do you explain that?

TIERNEY: I dig down into it, you know, you look at those states, you look at states like Pennsylvania, though, that there was a hope for. He's -- it's peeling apart here. You're looking at some of the other states as well.

And I just think, at a broader base, to win an election, you have to have I go back to 50 percent plus one of those who turn out. He's exciting a certain amount of groups, but he's also motivating the other. He needs to build upon that. He needs to talk more about his daughter and his children and his hopes and his dreams, some optimism here.

(CROSSTALK)

TIERNEY: I think, otherwise, it's like a George Wallace 19...

(CROSSTALK)

JONES: He needs to talk to other voters as well, not just the same Republican base.

At first, he was trying to at least attempt to black folk and talk about our situations, which sometimes Republicans really don't do. T.I., the rapper, says that hip-hop is a reflection of our pain. Talk about the economy. Talk about the education system. And actually show up in our community.

Right now, he's not doing that at all now.

BALDWIN: All right.

TIERNEY: Even if he's just doing it to try to get the moderate Republican, moderates in the middle of various parties, making those kind of appearances makes sense, because all he's doing is again exciting a core, but he's got a four-story ladder for an eight-story building.

BALDWIN: Brian Tierney, Lawrence Jones.

JONES: His campaign is a disaster.

BALDWIN: We will see. We will see. Three weeks out, guys, thank you so much.

TIERNEY: Thank you, Brooke.

JONES: Thanks, Brooke.

BALDWIN: And also perhaps who could put forth the optimism that were just discussing, this woman, his wife, Melania Trump, she sits down with Anderson Cooper.

[15:10:05]

Hear what the police first lady has to say with just three weeks to go until Election Day, her interview with Anderson Cooper 8:00 p.m. tonight, only here on CNN.

Also, there is a lot of talk about evangelicals sticking with Donald Trump despite the crude tape and his comments about women. The reverend Franklin Graham joins me live, and why he's telling folks to hold their nose and vote.

Plus, Hillary Clinton off campaign trail again, lightening her schedule. Is the campaign being too overconfident, not aggressive enough? Let's discuss that.

And breaking news today. This is in the last ISIS stronghold in Iraq. And, right now, a battle is under way to take it back. Our CNN correspondent got caught in the crossfire.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: We're back. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

The evangelical vote, it is traditionally a huge, huge voting bloc for Republican candidates. And Donald Trump has actively courted conservative Christian leaders throughout his campaign.

[15:15:05]

Franklin Graham is one of those leaders who has met with Mr. Trump one-on-one. He has defended evangelicals who have decided to stick with Trump, despite his latest controversies.

And Franklin Graham joins me now from Boone, North Carolina.

Mr. Graham, nice to have you on.

REV. FRANKLIN GRAHAM, SAMARITAN'S PURSE: Thank you, Brooke. It's good to be with you.

Brooke, I'm not a Republican or a Democrat. I'm an independent, and I haven't endorsed officially anybody in this race. What I have been trying to do this election is to go across the country and get people to pray. I have been to all 50 state capitols... BALDWIN: Wow.

GRAHAM: ... holding prayer rallies on those capitol steps with over 250,000 people have joined me to pray for this country.

Brooke, the people out there realize our country is in trouble. Our country is broken morally, spiritually, politically, economically, and it's going to take more than just one person to turn this thing around. Only God can do it. But God uses people.

And I'm encouraging people to vote, especially Christians, to get involved in the election process. I think it's so important to go to the polls and vote.

BALDWIN: I agree with you wholeheartedly, sir. Just so we're all crystal clear, when we have this conversation, you're not a Republican, you're not a Democrat. Are you voting for Mr. Trump?

GRAHAM: Well, I'm not going to say who I'm voting for, because I want people to focus on this election and pray for this country, because both candidates are flawed candidates.

Both have problems, but, at the same time, they're human beings who have a vision for America. And actually it's two different visions for this country. And, Brooke, this whole election comes down to one thing. It's not about her lost e-mails or his taxes.

It comes down to the Supreme Court. And we have to decide which candidate we think would nominate the best justices to that bench. And that's what it's coming down to, really the future of this country and the Supreme Court.

BALDWIN: Let me -- let me just follow up on that. Then I want to get back to the news of the day on Mr. Trump calling this a rigged -- the system is rigged.

On the Supreme Court, though -- and, yes, he's put forth this list of very conservative 21 judges who he says a list from what he would nominate. Why do you trust him, that he would use one of those justices? This is a man who's been a Democrat and who has believed in liberal issues. Do you take him at his word?

GRAHAM: Well, I think Donald Trump basically is an honest person.

And I think if he tells you he's going to do something, that's what he's going to do. I don't have any reason to think that he wouldn't do it, So he's put forth his list. When Hillary was asked in the last debate who she would put, she didn't give any names, but she gave the type of person that she would want to put on the bench.

So people have to decide of the two who do you trust to put someone on the bench that will believe in the Constitution, trust the Constitution, support the Constitution, and not try to make a law from the bench?

BALDWIN: You said something that I wanted to ask you about. You said Donald Trump is an honest person.

What sort of conversations have you had with him? How do you know his heart that well to conclude that he is honest?

GRAHAM: Well, first of all, the few conversations I have had with him, he's been very honest with me. He listens. He even listens to criticism.

So, I have -- you know, I have respect for him. And I have met Hillary. And I have been with her. It has been some time since I have been with her. And, again, she's a nice person.

BALDWIN: Would you say she's honest as well?

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Would you say she's honest as well, sir?

(LAUGHTER)

GRAHAM: Well, I think the American people would have to decide that. And I couldn't comment on that. There's been a lot of questions.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: You, in your personal relationship -- you have talked to her and you have talked to Mr. Trump. Forgive me for jumping in.

(CROSSTALK)

GRAHAM: Well, it's been a while since I have talked to her is what I'm saying.

BALDWIN: I see.

GRAHAM: I don't have any recent conversations with her, so I wouldn't know how to answer that.

But, again, it comes down to the Supreme Court. That's what the whole -- this election is about. It's the Supreme Court.

BALDWIN: What about, though, how Mr. Trump has been saying that the system is rigged, that there's widespread voter fraud? Isn't that dangerous language if it's not true?

GRAHAM: Well, I have no experience in whether this election is rigged.

I'm sure there are people on both sides that would like to be able to rig it, but I don't have any experience or knowledge as to who is rigging what.

BALDWIN: OK.

Two-and-a-half-hours from where you're sitting, someone firebombed the Hillsborough, North Carolina, office. That's of course the office that supports Donald Trump.

Just how afraid of you that the tensions and the rhetoric from both sides will lead to violence on or around Election Day?

GRAHAM: Well, it was a sad thing that that happened.

And, unfortunately, that happens sometimes. And it's happened in the past in politics. So I think we just have to move forward, Brooke. And I don't -- that doesn't represent the Democrats.

[15:20:07]

And, certainly, there are people that are angry, that feel that something like this was justified, but it was the wrong thing to do, and if anything, I think it will certainly help Trump here in North Carolina.

BALDWIN: Hmm.

Mr. Graham, you recently told evangelicals to hold your nose and vote after that Trump tape from 2005 came out.

GRAHAM: Yes.

BALDWIN: And now you have these women coming forward accusing Trump of sexual assault. They're now in the double digits. Do you still want them to hold their nose?

GRAHAM: Well, what it comes to, I have had people come up and say Franklin, I don't like Trump and I don't like Hillary.

But I say, listen, you have got to vote because it comes down to the Supreme Court. That's what's so important in this election and to just pray before you go vote and ask God to give you wisdom before you cast your vote, even if you have to hold your nose. But vote. Don't stay home.

And I have had people tell me they plan to stay home. And that would be the wrong thing to do. We need to be involved Christian -- this country needs the Christian voice. Christians need to be engaged in politics. We need to be active in politics. We need to run for political positions and offices across this country.

So I'm encouraging Christians to take a stand. And even if they don't like -- listen, we only really have the two candidates. One of the two is going to be president, whether we like it or not. And just staying home isn't the answer. You have got to pray, but then vote, and remember the Supreme Court.

BALDWIN: You are obviously a prayerful man. And I hear you on the Supreme Court being a central issue to you, but you're also a man of God.

And the question would be how -- how is a man of God -- how is it Christian for Mr. Trump, 11 years ago, to brag about sexual assault? How do you -- how do you -- how does that sit in your heart? GRAHAM: Well, first of all, I can't -- I don't condone it. I can't

defend it. And I don't know of any evangelical that can do that. That was 11 years ago. He's apologized to his wife. He's apologized to the American people.

He's taken responsibility for that -- for that statement. So, I think you just have to take him at his word and move on. Now, he regrets saying it. So I think we have to move on. And these women that have come up just three weeks before the election and made these accusations, I think this is more political than anything.

BALDWIN: Just quickly, your father, so many in this country love, admire, respect him. He's about to be 98. You and I were just talking in commercial break. You say he's just happy to wake up in the morning. What do you think he would make of all of this?

GRAHAM: Well, of course, he's known the Clintons for many years and he's known Donald Trump for many years.

Donald Trump actually came to his 95th birthday celebrated four years ago, and, you know, daddy likes him. But, again, my father is not involved in this election. He hasn't supported or come out to endorse anybody. At 98, as I told you earlier, he's just happy to wake up in the morning.

BALDWIN: Wish him a happy early birthday from us.; 98 is -- that's pretty impressive. Franklin Graham, thank you, sir, so much.

GRAHAM: Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Thank you.

Coming up next, the Iraqi army launches a major offensive against ISIS, trying to take back this key city of Mosul. CNN is there live in Iraq on the front lines. We will take you there.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:27:49]

BALDWIN: An all-out battle raging right now in Iraq. The country's prime minister announcing the start of a mission to retake the key city of Mosul from ISIS and free more than a million people.

Iraqi-led forces appear to be gaining ground. Iraq's military says it has inflicted, their words, heavy losses on ISIS.

CNN's senior international correspondent, Nick Paton Walsh, was trying to file a report actually from the battle zone when he nearly got caught in the crossfire.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: What kind of resistance will they continue to face? The Iraqi military, too, at some point will have to push down here towards Mosul, but this has been an effort with much international support, a lot of coalition planning. American airpower...

(GUNFIRE)

WALSH: One came right at me.

(GUNFIRE)

WALSH: What are they shooting at? Let's move, yes?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: "Let's move," he says.

Nick Paton Walsh is live near Mosul.

Nick, what happened and what's the status of the fight?

WALSH: Well, at that stage, we were on the main road that was basically the key objective in the first part of this assault, which the Peshmerga, Kurdish Iraqis were in fact leading.

Now, that stage, we were hit from both sides by small-arms fire from the remnants of ISIS fighters, many of whom have been hiding around that particular village and road area. Now, outside of that particular exchange of fire, there was a separate incident earlier where we saw the Peshmerga chasing into the hills one ISIS fighter.

They exchanged fire. The ISIS fighter actually came out of a hole in the ground, a tunnel potentially, opened fire on the Peshmerga and then blew himself up in front of us, so a tenacity there and a willingness to die that is surely going to slow the Peshmerga offensive.

Their general command has just announced that, during today's 24-hour operation, they have cleared up nine villages and a total of 200 square kilometers. We saw them move through quite a lot of territory, but it obviously is the case a lot of it is not entirely purged of ISIS. We saw a separate village