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Past Ties Complicate Giuliani's Bid; Possible Trump Cabinet Picks; Security Clearances for Trump's Children; Obama On Trump Victory. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired November 15, 2016 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[14:00:00] WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Continues right now, right here on CNN.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi there. I'm Brooke Baldwin. You're watching CNN. Thank you for being with me.

Can the nation's future vice president calm the drama inside Donald Trump's transition team? A source describes this internal confusion and jockeying for White House positions is a quote/unquote "knife fight." Another source called it like the "Game of Thrones." And now you have the vice president-elect, Mike Pence, he is now inside Trump Tower for the day. He has entered this proverbial fray, officially leading the transition team. That switch-up happened last Friday, as questions swirl over which Trump insider is really calling the shots.

You have the chief of staff, party insider Reince Priebus, versus Trump's chief strategist, fringe right leader Steve Bannon, plus son- in-law Jared Kushner, Ivanka's husband. And then there is this. This is just into us here. A source familiar with the Trump transition says that close Trump confidante Rudy Giuliani, former New York mayor, may not actually now be a lock for the position of secretary of state because of some of his past business ties.

So, Elise Labott has that for us. She's our CNN global affairs correspondent. Also joining me at the top of the hour, CNN politics reporter Sara Murray.

But, Elise, to you first. We know that Mayor Giuliani has been lobbying for this spot. What's the curveball?

ELISE LABOTT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, and that's right, Brooke, this morning we were told that Rudy Giuliani had a lock on the position. And certainly in an interview with "The Wall Street Journal," he was already in some ways laying out what kind of foreign policy he envisioned as part of a Trump administration. So - but now, obviously, all of these people have to be vetted.

Now, clearly, there's nobody on the list that we've been talking about for America's top diplomat that is closer to Donald Trump than Rudy Giuliani. A real visible face throughout the campaign. But he comes with a lot of baggage. I mean most - what I'm being told is some of his international business ties are a concern and that could pose a challenge when he sits before a full Senate with a great number of Democrats for his confirmation, particularly some of the ties of former lobbying that he did as part of an attorney for a Texas-based law firm, for Citgo, which is a U.S. subsidiary of the Venezuelan state oil company. That's one of the larger concerns.

There are also - this is no new issue to Rudy Giuliani. You remember that when he ran for president in 2008, his connections through his consulting firm Giuliani Partners, questions were raised about the work that he did for the government of Qatar. So clearly all of this is being looked at right now as he's being vetted for a top cabinet position. And given the fact that Donald Trump has talked about draining the swamp, ending this kind of coziness between consultants and Washington and also the criticism that he gave about the Clinton Foundation, these things are going to be looked at very carefully. It doesn't necessarily mean it's a disqualification, but it is something that's being talked about.

BALDWIN: Right. Right. Duly noted.

And then, behind closed doors, Sara Murray, now I defer to you, because we saw the pictures of Vice President-elect Pence in Trump Tower. What are they working through? How are discussions going?

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICS REPORTER: Well, I think part of sort of the disorganization you've been seeing is the fact that a transition was being headed by Chris Christie, now it's being headed by Mike Pence. So Mike Pence and Donald Trump are finally getting together today to sort of go over some of these cabinet names. And that may be why you see shifts from someone like Rudy Giuliani being a lock on the State Department, to now questions being raised. The more people Donald Trump talked to, the more people Mike Pence talked to, the more of an indication they could get of, you know, some of the - the problems that could come up if Donald Trump tries to place some of his very close loyalists into his cabinet.

I think that's also why you're seeing a transition source tell me that there are other names that Donald Trump wanted to talk about going into this meeting with Mike Pence today. He wanted to talk about Richard Armitage, who is a former deputy secretary of state. He wanted to talk about Henry Paulson, a former treasury secretary, who has been openly critical of Trump, who actually wrote an op-ed saying he was voting for Hillary Clinton.

So I think part of what you're seeing here is the Trump campaign wanting to make it seem like they are willing to consider people who have been critical of Trump in the past, they're willing to cast a wide net and just kind of see if maybe some of the people who didn't seem very interested in Donald Trump as a candidate might be more interested in him as a president-elect.

BALDWIN: Sara, thank you. Elise, thank you.

Now that we have that established here, I can tell you that Rudy Giuliani, he talked about this decision, this process of potentially becoming secretary of state just in the past 12 hours. This is what he told "The Wall Street Journal."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUDY GIULIANI (R), FORMER NEW YORK MAYOR: John would be a very good choice.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there anybody better?

GIULIANI: Maybe me. I don't know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[14:05:00] BALDWIN: That's a big smile. I'm going to get he wants the gig.

Let's talk Trump transition and possible administration picks with our panel. With me, Julie Pace, the A.P.'s chief White House correspondent, Howard Schweitzer used to serve as chief operating officer for the government's TARP program during the early years of the financial crisis, knows Washington very well, and also with me, CNN political commentator and Republican strategist Margaret Hoover, who was once part of Rudy Giuliani's presidential exploratory committee.

So, Margaret Hoover, I'm going to turn and just begin with you.

With this potential curveball of, you know, those international business ties and then lobbying of past, do you think that that would be a deal breaker for him potentially being picked?

MARGARET HOOVER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Not necessarily. I mean I think people - there are deal breakers when there are conflicts of interest. If those conflicts of interest don't exist right now, and if he can, you know, do the equivalent of what people are asking Donald Trump to do with his finances, put it in a blind trust, a real blind trust, actually sever ties and not have - then there's nothing that would exclude him because Rudy actually, since 9/11, many people think of him as America's mayor. But 9/11 was, you know, the defining moment in our times where, again, Americans began to look outward and understand our national foreign policy in a way totally different than we had previously. And Rudy has been at the - really at the tip of the spear with all of that.

I think what we've seen with these MEK lobbying, there were 97 members of the House of Representatives who agreed with a resolution that they should be delisted as a terrorist group. I mean Rudy was not alone. Even Howard Dean and two of Obama's appointees in the security - the security apparatus actually agreed with that position. So it wasn't - I think this has been politicized maybe for political purposes, but I don't think -

BALDWIN: Do you think he's up for the job?

HOOVER: I -

BALDWIN: Do you think he's up to it?

HOOVER: Rudy is clearly up to the job. Yes, I think Rudy is up to that.

BALDWIN: OK, Julie Pace, let me pivot to you because we've talked quite a bit about Rudy Giuliani through especially this campaign process. He's been near and dear and a strong ally to Donald Trump. But when you look back at some of the headlines he's made, he mocked Hillary Clinton for failing the bar exam 41 years ago, said it was covered up by the press, repeated the Trump camp accusations on that Hillary Clinton was sick. Not true. Just - there - there - there were several moments when Americans were kind of like, what? Do you think he's up for it?

JULIE PACE, CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, ASSOCIATED PRESS: Yes. I think that - I think that Rudy Giuliani may - maybe left a different impression with a lot of Americans through the course of this campaign than what they know of him and remember of him from September 11th. But I think the most important thing in this discussion is that he was loyal to Donald Trump. And that is something that Trump prides above almost -

BALDWIN: Loyalty goes far.

PACE: Yes, it's something he prides above almost all else. So what we've heard is that Rudy Giuliani, if he wants a job like secretary of state, it could be his. At the same time, I think what you're going to see Mike Pence and other people who have been through this kind of process in Washington before, say now to the president-elect is, we really need to dig through their background. We can't just take loyalty as the number one qualification. We have to make sure that this person can get confirmed. And in most administrations, you have one or more people who get nominated and eventually have to pull back because of something that comes up during this vetting process.

BALDWIN: So, we know transitions, though, Howard. We know transitions are messy, even though we know President Obama has really talked highly about going from Bush 43 to his administration, professional smooth process. That said, when you hear words like "knife fight," "Game of Thrones" in terms of, you know, decision making or lack thereof, confusing buffoonery, does that worry you?

HOWARD SCHWEITZER, HELPED LEAD FEDERAL RESPONSE TO 2008 FINANCIAL CRISIS: Not especially. These - this is the toing and froing of a transition. Transitions are by definition challenging and difficult. And I think everybody's sitting back and enjoying the kind of palace intrigue that's going on right now. But, fundamentally, what's happening is the incoming administration is - is - and should be arguing and debating appointees, policies, and I think that's what we're seeing.

BALDWIN: So this is the messiness, the ugliness. This is pretty much par for the course?

HOOVER: Well, I -

SCHWEITZER: In my view and - and, look, back in 2008 and 2009, when the Obama administration was transitioning, and, yes, it was good, but I was in the basement of the United States Treasury transitioning the TARP program. Obviously it was a time of national crisis. And that was not an easy transition by any means. So these things are just inherently difficult.

HOOVER: They are inherently difficult, but I think it's also, you know, worth remembering that this is a man who's been elected to - for the first time to elected office. And he doesn't have any experience in Washington. He doesn't have any experience serving the American people. And so I think it's fair to bake in a certain amount of maybe extra leeway. And I think his voters and supporters will do that because they know he's not a politician. That's what they liked about him. They want him to drain the swamp.

So I think there will probably built - be built in amongst his supporters maybe even an extra layer of give and sort of forgiveness because there is going to be a learning curve here -

[14:10:02] BALDWIN: Right.

HOOVER: More than any other non-elected -

BALDWIN: Well, even, Julie, you know, White House staffers, you tell me what you're hearing, but White House staffers when, you know, they were briefing President-elect Trump, they were surprised at the - I think the word rudimentary - rudimentary knowledge that Trump and his team sort of comes in with when it comes to the White House.

PACE: They were surprised but what they are - are being told by the president himself is basically, our job is to help make this easier. And President Obama looks very fondly at what George Bush and his team did for him after the 2008 election. And despite all of the heartache in the West Wing right now among Obama's staff, despite Obama's own misgivings about Trump's readiness for office, they feel like their job now is to do whatever it takes, even if it's above and beyond what they expected they would have to do, to get him ready to walk into the Oval Office on January 20th.

BALDWIN: What we know that - Vice President-elect Mike Pence is now heading up this transition team, Howard. We know that he had - he's been the executive of a state. He has, you know, Capitol Hill experience, House leadership experience. Do you think in terms of these picks, will it be more of a Pence pick situation or will Trump be really heavy handed?

SCHWEITZER: Trump's going to make the call. I mean, yes, Pence is playing a role, perhaps a larger role than others vice presidents have played in the past. But, look, at the end of the day, there's no question that Trump's going to - going to make these choices. He's the chief executive. I think he's going to bring that - that mentality to the job. He's going to look to his people to present options to him and then he's going to make the call. And he's going to make the call based on a variety of factors, experience, loyalty, you know, everything everybody's been talking about. But I think he will make the call.

BALDWIN: When you look at some of the names being thrown around, I was even talking to Jamie Gangel yesterday, who has amazing Republican establishment sources, and she was saying, you know, Romney folks, some of the Bush folks, they want in. They want in. They want to help shape the process. My question to you is, this former State Department official Elliot Cohen, who was a never Trumper, who sort of said, all right, he won, maybe I want a piece of this. He just tweeted, quote, "after having a conversation with Trump's team, I change my recommendation, stay away. They're angry, arrogant, screaming "you lost." Will be ugly."

HOOVER: I mean, Elliot, to be fair, was one of the most critical people of Trump's candidacy. So I have a hard time imagining how anybody, after winning, especially Donald Trump, could be enormously gracious to the people who are most sort of critical of him. Yes, I think that's one -

BALDWIN: But wouldn't that show a lot if he were to take him into the fold?

HOOVER: Look, I - that's one data point. Sure - I'm sure it would, but it's one data point.

BALDWIN: Yes.

HOOVER: I mean I've spoken to folks who are on the transition committee who are saying, you know, things that are very, very different than what's being reported.

BALDWIN: Like what?

HOOVER: For example, like this administration really is striving to be LGBT friendly. OK, that's not what you're seeing on the streets in the LGBT political committee (ph).

BALDWIN: Say that again.

HOOVER: OK. They are striving. I mean I - sources have told me that they plan and intend to be friendly to LGBT Americans and have policies that are friendly to LGBT Americans. By the way, shouldn't be a surprise. Donald Trump has said that also.

BALDWIN: He was a Democrat for years.

HOOVER: OK. So I just - I think, you know, there's going to be little stories like this, but we're not going to have a lot of data until they get some more time under their belts. It's just been a week.

PACE: Julie, what about your perch from the White House and how the president, you know, today was day two of him taking questions from reports on all of this. Who do you make of how his language in talking about the president-elect?

PACE: It's been pretty fascinating because obviously the president didn't hold any punches during the campaign. He said that Donald Trump was unfit for office. That he would be dangerous to the republic. But he, again, takes this transition period very seriously. He knows that what he is saying is going to be heard not just by Americans who are worried about Donald Trump taking office - BALDWIN: But around the world.

PACE: But also world leaders who are anxious about what kind of foreign policy that President-elect Trump will implement. So I think you're seeing President Obama go out of his way the last few days to be restrained, to try to give Trump space. I think he wants to give him a chance. I think sitting in that Oval Office and the sobriety that must come over you when you do that is something that only 44 and now 45 people in the world understand. And I think Obama is hoping that Trump will be wrapped up in that and maybe temper some of his worse impulses.

BALDWIN: H e's being criticized, though, for being too positive. That's a whole other conversation we'll have later this hour. Some folks are none too thrilled about how he's saying, let's give him a chance. I know I hear Margaret laughing, Howard and Julie, thank you all, so, so much for being a part of the conversation.

Coming up next, team Trump inquiring about the possibility of Trump's grown children receiving top-secret security clearances, even though they will be running the Trump business. Why would that be? What kind of information could they have at their fingertips? Why would they want it?

[14:15:13] Plus, I just mentioned, is President Obama too positive about Trump's transition? Some Democratic critics say absolutely. Let's discuss that.

And, Paul Ryan, keeping his job as House speaker. But, on the other side of the aisle, Nancy Pelosi's future, not so certain. Hear what the Democrats just did today.

I'm Brooke Baldwin. And this is CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Welcome back. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Could Donald Trump's own grown children get access to some of America's secrets? CNN has learned that the president-elect's transition team has inquired about the possibility of getting three of his adult children and his son-in-law some sort of security clearances.

So let's discuss that. CNN global economist analyst Rana Foroohar is here, assistant managing editor of "Time," and CNN political analyst and "Washington Post" columnist Josh Rogin.

So, nice to see both of you.

And, Josh, just off the bat, do we even know what sort of, you know, security clearance they could receive if it were to be granted? What they would learn?

[14:20:05] JOSH ROGIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Right. Well, it all depends on what job in the administration Trump would want his children to have. Now he said two things. He said that they will run his businesses and not be part of the government. But security clearances are only granted to people who have actual roles in the administration, OK. That's the law. It also - there's also a law called the nepotism law, which means you can't actually employ your blood relatives if you're president of the United States. But all of this is sort of undetermined because we don't have any actual information about what the Trump team wants to do. And this speaks to the sort of larger -

BALDWIN: But from what I've read, Josh, let me just jump in, because of the nepotism rule, you're absolutely correct, but that doesn't mean they couldn't receive those security clearances and not be employees.

ROGIN: Right. Right. So if they had some sort of advisory role, they would have a security clearance.

BALDWIN: Right.

ROGIN: But then they would only have access to specific information on a need-to-know basis, OK. Just having a clearance doesn't get you the information. So the question then is, what would they be involved in where they would actually have to use the security clearance. And we should also note here that once they have the security clearance, they'd be obligate by law, under penalty of prosecution, to protect that information from release in any form, publicly or privately.

BALDWIN: We're talking about this because from everything I've seen this is fairly unprecedented stuff. But, seriously, on the business note, I mean they run the business -

RANA FOROOHAR, CNN GLOBAL ECONOMIC ANALYST: Yes.

BALDWIN: Blind trust over here. White House over here.

FOROOHAR: Yes.

BALDWIN: Is this not a total conflict of interest?

FOROOHAR: Well, you know, there is a history of presidents putting their assets in blind trusts, right? That's been done before. But the Trump situation is so unique because of his children, you know? I mean these - the kids are so involved in the business. I think that unless he's very, very careful about - in the beginning, separating out policy and national interest from what his kids may or may not be doing with the business, it's going to be a constant thorn in his side, you know? It's something that he's got to be very careful about right now in the beginning. And so I think any kind of even perception of conflict of interest is going to be a problem.

BALDWIN: Josh, can you imagine why they would even want it? Would Trump want this?

ROGIN: Well, it's - it's clear why - what it would do for them. It would allow the Trump children to have access to information that they could then use to make business decisions that would give them a competitive advantage. That's exactly why it's a conflict of interest and a problem.

FOROOHAR: Yes.

BALDWIN: Yes.

ROGIN: Also, they could use - tell Trump the business information and he could use that to make American national security policy. So either way you look at it, it's a really terrible idea, and that's why these are in place.

FOROOHAR: Yes.

BALDWIN: Yes.

ROGIN: Now, Rudy Giuliani said to Jake Tapper on "State of the Union" on Sunday that the conflict of interest laws don't apply to the president, OK. That's technically true, but it's not something that you're really supposed to say and it's not an indication that the Trump administration plans to take a very strict policy towards avoiding these very conflicts of interest.

BALDWIN: OK. And, again, this is the Trump transition team asking about the possibility. There's all these caveats, right, you - in and of the question.

Rana Foroohar, while I have you -

FOROOHAR: Yes.

BALDWIN: The chair of the Securities and Exchange Commission is stepping down before Trump takes office.

FOROOHAR: Yes.

BALDWIN: So we're talking - we're talking about Mary Jo White. She - she could stay in her job until 2019 but she is saying "see ya."

FOROOHAR: Yes. Well, you know what, I don't blame her for a lot of reasons. Mary Jo White actually wasn't popular with either Republicans or Democrats, right? Republicans thought that she overreached, that she was too aggressive in terms of her targets for regulation. Democrats felt she wasn't doing enough. I mean the woman couldn't please anybody and, you know, frankly, I think she's bowing out.

BALDWIN: She's bowing out.

FOROOHAR: It's going to be interesting to see who else might do that in the next few months.

BALDWIN: Rana, thank you. Josh, thank you as well.

ROGIN: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Next, is President Obama being too soft on Trump since he won? Is he being too positive in his outlook? What about Hillary Clinton? Critics, mostly Democrats, say absolutely. We'll talk about that.

Also ahead, reports suggest President-elect Trump has plans to spend a lot of time at Trump Tower during his presidency. He would like to, he says. We'll talk live with a former Secret Service agent about whether that is even possible and what measures would be needed to even make that happen.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:28:25] BALDWIN: President Obama, in his final overseas trip as commander-in-chief, giving a bit more insight into his thoughts about the election of Donald Trump. President Obama said that while he doesn't quote/unquote "feel responsible" for the outcome, he acknowledged he understands why people voted for him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: People are less certain of their national identities or their place in the world. It starts looking different and disorienting. And there is no doubt that that has produced populist movements both from the left and the right.

You have seen some of the rhetoric among Republican elected officials and activists and media. Some of it pretty troubling and not necessarily connected to facts, but being used effectively to mobilize people. And, obviously, President-elect Trump tapped into that particular strain within the Republican Party and then was able to broad than enough and get enough votes to win the election.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: The president did issue a warning against divisive politics, a dire warning in an "us" versus "them" way of thinking, but his middle-of-the-road tone may be too much for some. Many Democrats are concerned the president is being too positive about a Trump administration.

[14:30:04] So here with me, Bill Press, CNN political commentator and former supporter of Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton.

Bill Press, nice to see you.

BILL PRESS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Hello, Brooke.

BALDWIN: What do you make of this criticism