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Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield

5-Year-Old Girl Leads Police to Dead Mother; Two Social Workers Charged in Child`s Death; Restaurant Manager Humiliates Army Veteran on Veteran`s Day. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired November 15, 2016 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[20:00:00] ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HLN HOST: A tiny little girl left alone at a huge bus station, her mom found dead at home. And tonight, police have a

lot of questions for the father, as soon as they find him.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): Just 5 years cold and abandoned a big city bus terminal, 40 miles away, her mom mysteriously found dead. Now the search is on for the

little girl`s dad.

They`re supposed to keep our most vulnerable children safe, but two social workers have been now charged after a 3-year-old boy is murdered, his own

mom charged. Did prosecutors go too far, or did the government drop the ball?

Viral humiliation, a free meal snatched right out of the hands of a military vet, his credentials questioned on camera.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you questioning my service dog (ph) now?

BANFIELD: So will the Internet serve up a little justice?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: Hello, everyone. I`m Ashleigh Banfield, and we`re following some breaking news here on PRIMETIME JUSTICE. The search is on tonight for

the father of a 5-year-old girl that police say he abandoned at the main bus terminal in New York City.

Here`s what we know about the story. Police say Elmer Gomez Ruano abandoned that little child yesterday morning. When an officer spotted her

all alone in that sprawling terminal, that confusing place in New York City, the officer brought her into the precinct. Somehow, they were able

to trace her home 40 miles away in Connecticut, but arrived there to find her mother dead.

Tonight, police are searching for the child`s father and investigating the possibility of a love triangle gone disastrously bad.

Bert (ph) Baron is a morning show host on WCTC radio. He`s with me life. So Bert, what happened? And who is this man? Who is this woman? And how

on earth did a child end up there?

ROBERT BARON, WCTC RADIO: Well, Ashleigh, it`s a pretty remarkable story, a 5-year-old girl abandoned in the Port Authority bus terminal in New York

City, which is a pretty tough place for a kid to be left all alone. She leads police back to her home in Connecticut, where she had moved with her

mom over the weekend to be reunited with her estranged husband. And the girl leads the police there. They find the mom dead, and the manhunt under

way at this hour for the husband, the estranged husband, who is the prime suspect here.

BANFIELD: And the story of this prime suspect -- do they have any clue where he might be? Do they have any leads?

BARON: Anyone`s guess at this point, Ashleigh. He`s a Guatemalan national. There`s very little paperwork, no driver`s license for him, the

deceased wife or the little girl. And there`s a lot of unanswered questions at this hour. He is on the run as we speak and is wanted in this

case.

BANFIELD: Where`s the little girl right now?

BARON: In the custody, in Connecticut. They`re trying to find a family member or someone, or else she`ll become a ward of the state, and even

through Guatemala consulate, someone who can claim ownership of this little girl. And it`s a remarkable story. She spoke very little English, which

isn`t a problem. A lot of the Port Authority police in New York can speak two languages, so there was really no barrier there.

But your heart breaks for this little girl because she could end up a ward of the state of Connecticut unless something happens with her. But she has

been incredibly brave to this point.

BANFIELD: Bert, I`m just looking at these pictures, I`m sure you are, as well, of the officers carrying her so gingerly. And she just -- it just --

like you said, it just breaks your heart to see this little 5-year-old who was alone in the Port Authority bus terminal. I hope she`s blissfully

unaware of what happened to her mother.

What do we know about that mother? What do we know about the circumstances surrounding her death?

BARON: Again, very little at this point. It was confirmed earlier today that it was a homicide. There were signs of a struggle around her body.

And again, who knows what this little girl saw, what she`ll remember, what she can even tell the police? There are just so many unanswered questions

at this hour, Ashleigh. And you hope for the best for the little girl and you hope that this man is brought to justice very soon.

BANFIELD: Bert, don`t go anywhere. I want to bring in Captain Richard Conklin with the Stamford police bureau of criminal investigations.

I don`t know, Captain, if you can shed any more light this, but it is astounding that a little girl, 5 years old, alone at the Port Authority bus

station in New York City, was somehow able to give some kind of information to these officers that would lead them to where her mother was dead. Do

you know how they made that connection?

CAPT. RICHARD CONKLIN, STAMFORD POLICE (via telephone): No. It was a lot of back and forth, Ashleigh. It is very remarkable, since this girl lived

in this apartment only one day having moved there from New Jersey the day before.

BANFIELD: So honestly, somehow, they were able -- I mean, it doesn`t appear that she has a name tag. It doesn`t appear that -- I mean, 5 years

old and barely speaking English, somehow, within 24 hours, they`re able to get a connection to a home 40 miles away from the heart of New York City.

[20:05:05]CONKLIN: Actually, it was even less than that. They found the child about 10:12 AM in the Port Authority terminal, and they contacted us

at 11:30 AM...

BANFIELD: Wow!

CONKLIN: ... to check on this house. So it was very quick. I understand that the child is only 5 years old and speaks mostly Spanish, but they say

she`s very articulate for her age and very mature.

BANFIELD: I`ll say! Just -- it`s amazing when we look at these pictures, she just looks so delicate and tiny. So Captain, what about the murder

scene? What can you tell us about that apartment, the condition of the victim, the circumstances you found her in? Tell me everything you know.

CONKLIN: Well, Ashleigh, the apartment is a very, very small one-bedroom apartment. And they had just moved in the previous days, so a lot of their

belongings were still boxed. They hadn`t even fully moved in.

In the bedroom, one bedroom where she was found, it`s obvious signs of a struggle that took place. And that`s where we found the mom deceased,

right at that location. Now, today, the medical examiner ruled that this was, in fact, a homicide, which we believed right from the beginning.

BANFIELD: Do you know the details of the cause of death? Do you know what it was that killed her?

CONKLIN: You know, Ashleigh, we have some thoughts on that. The medical examiner asked to us hold off because they were going to do some additional

procedures tomorrow. And then they`ll narrow that down and then we can release additional information.

BANFIELD: My (ph) understand (ph) that makes perfect sense. But what about this report that there was a party in that home? Obviously, they had

just moved in on Saturday. By Sunday, there was some kind of a celebration in that home. By Sunday night or Monday morning, she`s dead, and this

child is alone in the middle of New York City in a bus terminal.

CONKLIN: Yes. You know, I`d call it more a get-together. You have to understand that this apartment is very, very small. And from what I

understand, several family and friends came by in kind of a house warming type of situation. They didn`t stay long because it was a Sunday night and

most were getting ready for work the next day. But all that attended this little get-together, and there weren`t that many, claimed that everybody

seemed happy and normal upon them leaving early Sunday evening.

BANFIELD: Captain, don`t go anywhere. Bert, I want to bring you back in. What do we know about witnesses, about other people in the area who might

have been able to shed some light on what happened? An, I mean, literally, this family had only been there for less than 48 hours.

BARON: There is very little to go on at this hour, Ashleigh, other than what this little girl could possibly see or remember is really all they

have. And other than surveillance of the suspect getting off a bus at Port Authority, not a lot is known. There were people that knew them and

thought their relationship was maybe going one way or maybe going another way, and we kind of know the direction it was going in.

But as far as witnesses and who can say what happened -- you had mentioned about there was a party. There was a family celebration to celebrate the

girl and her mom moving from New Jersey to Connecticut. And maybe this was a chance for them to reconcile and get their relationship and their family

moving in a positive direction again, and obviously, that`s -- that`s done. So really...

BANFIELD: Bert, you hit the nail on the head -- that investigative technique of getting every piece of surveillance video you can possibly lay

your hands on. And we all know in New York City, you can`t step five feet without being (INAUDIBLE) So is this literally what they got? Is this how

they found the man who left that little child, they just followed the connecting dots of surveillance video right out onto the street, out of

Port Authority?

BARON: That`s really all they had to go on. And hopefully, this little girl -- maybe she was able to give her dad`s full name. She knew her

address. At 5 years old, Ashleigh, very few little kids can repeat their address, let alone to the police while speaking very little English. So

she is remarkable. She is going to be a really big key in this, in finding this man.

BANFIELD: And let`s just repeat, 5 years old, knew her address, where she`d only lived for two days. It`s just astounding that this child was

able to help in at least tracking down where we are in this crime right now.

And that brings me back to Captain Conklin right now. The search for this man, the search for the suspect in this case -- I don`t think -- I`m not

even sure we can call him a suspect. What are we calling him? Is this a person of interest? Is this the man who you saw on video you think

allegedly abandoning this child? Is this the man you`re looking for in connection with the murder? Who is this man?

CONKLIN: Yes. We would call him a suspect at this point. He did leave that apartment with his child, abandoning the child in the Port Authority

terminal. And you know, he had been working in Stamford at a diner for about six months, very responsible, showed up for work every day on time.

And right after this incident, he disappeared without a call to them. So...

[20:10:00]BANFIELD: Captain, where did the trail go cold? That`s where I`m so curious. Like I said, there`s video everywhere. And if that man

was in the Port Authority dumping that little 5-year-old girl, there has to be a digital trace. There has to be a video trade of him. Where did that

video trace end?

CONKLIN: Well, as he leaves the Port Authority terminal. We do have that video, and it does confirm that he is the party leaving the child and

abandoning the child. He told the child to wait for him. He would be back. And of course, he did not come back.

BANFIELD: She was the one who was able to articulate that, that, Daddy told me stay here, I`ll be back?

CONKLIN: Yes. Yes.

BANFIELD: Oh!

CONKLIN: We`ve retrieved her from the New York authorities today, and we`re in the process of a forensic interview at this point. We have some

child and family services, some of our youth personnel and investigations, and they`re involved in an forensic interview of this child as we speak,

and we hope that sheds some light on the situation.

BANFIELD: And I`ll tell you, there is a very specific way one goes about a forensic interview of a child. There is an entire science behind it. It

is not easy and it is not quick.

To both Bert and Captain Conklin, if you can stand by for just a moment, I want to update our viewers on some stories that we`re tracking on PRIMETIME

JUSTICE.

In Oklahoma City, the airport slowly resuming operations because it had been shut down. The police there were investigating the shooting death of

a Southwest airlines employee. The officers say the victim was at work when he was killed in the parking lot just a short time ago. Police say

they found the suspect dead from a self-inflicted gunshot wound in a parking garage nearby.

Over to Lubbock, Texas, right now, authorities there are asking for your help in finding a missing Texas Tech student. 33-year-old Jeffrey Hargrove

was last seen Saturday on November the 5th. He was getting dropped off at his hotel after a football game. We`ve got a tipline for you. It`s on

your screen, 806-741-1000 -- 806-741-1000 if you have any information about Jeffrey Hargrove.

Over to Los Angeles now. Stanford rape survivor Emily Doe was honored by "Glamour" magazine as one of its women of the year. Her powerful open

letter to her attacker, Brock Turner, went viral after his conviction but his very light sentence. A Stanford professor and a friend of Emily Does

accepted the award on her behalf. And three actresses -- Frieda Pinto, Gabourey Sidibe and Amber Heard -- read the two letters that Emily Doe

wrote.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Victims are not victims, not some fragile, sorrowful aftermath. Victims are survivors. And survivors are going to be doing a

hell of a lot more than surviving. To girls everywhere, I am with you.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:17:00]BANFIELD: A little girl, just 5 years old, abandoned at a busy New York bus terminal, her mom found murdered back at home 40 miles away.

And tonight, Dad is on the run. Captain Richard Conklin is with the Stamford police bureau of criminal investigations. Captain, thanks for

staying with us. Real quick question.

A lot of reports coming in that there was a volatile relationship. I guess it`s no surprise to hear that. But what do you know about the relationship

between Dad, who`s missing, and Mom, who`s dead?

CONKLIN: Well, we know that they had separated for some time. And Mom and the child had lived in Flemington, New Jersey. During that separation, she

had a boyfriend, and we`re trying to see if that contributed to this situation.

BANFIELD: So when you say boyfriend, you`re saying love triangle?

CONKLIN: Yes. I guess that is a very simple way to put it, yes.

BANFIELD: Is that boyfriend helping in terms of any information that might lead to this suspect, Elmer Gomez Ruano?

CONKLIN: Yes, he is. He`s made himself available to us, had some very pertinent information involving the investigation, and he is assisting law

enforcement.

BANFIELD: All right. I want to bring in he former prosecutor Randy Zelin and defense attorney Joey Jackson, who are with me now. Guys, the Port

Authority -- just got some fast facts on it. I know we`re in New York and we know it`s a busy place. But for anybody who`s watching right now, this

is the busiest place in America. It is the busiest and largest bus terminal in the country, 200,000 people traipse through there every day,

and one little 5-year-old girl all by herself.

On an annual basis, 66 million people traipse through that bus terminal every single day. And that little girl in that officer`s arms with her

Coca-Cola was all by herself, reportedly staring out a window. So one thing we know for sure by the video is that one Elmer Gomez Ruano walked

off and left her there. She reports, Daddy told me he was coming back. Daddy didn`t come back. So at least we know that much.

Randy, take it from there. If they find him -- if, if, if they find him, what do they do?

RANDY ZELIN, FORMER PROSECUTOR: As a prosecutor, the first thing I do is I charge him immediately with endangering the welfare of a minor. I don`t

worry about a murder charge. I arrest him. I have him charged with that. Then what I do is I go into court, and I say to a judge, I understand that

it`s only a misdemeanor, but clearly, he is a flight risk. He is not here legally. I ask for high bail.

Now I have him sitting in a jail. I don`t have to worry about him, and now I build my murder case.

BANFIELD: And Joey Jackson gets the call and Joey Jackson is asked to defend someone like this, who`s on video walking off and leaving a little

girl while a mom 40 miles away is dead at his apartment, where he has not returned.

JOEY JACKSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, of course, that`s problematic, but it`s problematic as to what Randy Zelin speaks to, which

is the endangering of a minor charge. Clearly, you don`t want to leave a girl who`s 5 years old, who`s 6 years old, who`s 11 years old in the Port

Authority.

But to the issue of murder, you need to know more. And we can`t set bail or start talking about leaving people in jail indefinitely until we really

know more.

(CROSSTALK)

[20:20:06]JACKSON: Hold on. By all indications, there was a family gathering initially. At that family gathering, everything seemed to be in

order. Nothing seemed to be amiss. And we don`t start blaming and telling people that they`re murderers until we have factual evidence to otherwise

establish that they are.

ZELIN: I don`t accuse him of being a murderer!

(CROSSTALK)

JACKSON: ... circumstantial, and you`re suggesting...

ZELIN: I accuse him of endangering the welfare of a minor. I go through the bail statute, and I say, Judge, he is a flight risk. He is not here

legally. I`m not going on breathe word one about a murder charge! I`m going to ask fro high bail, which would be appropriate. He will sit in

jail. There`ll be (INAUDIBLE) because he`s not legal, and then I`ll build on my murder case!

JACKSON: High bail is not appropriate...

(CROSSTALK)

JACKSON: ... relates to a reckless endangerment charge. What happens is, high bail as it relates to murder -- that`s another matter because now

you`re suggesting that someone took someone`s life. The penalty is so severe and draconian for murder that you become a flight risk. So as a

result of that, we want prosecutors to prosecute based on evidence that they have.

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: Where is this crime tonight? We got two crimes. We got two states.

JACKSON: Correct.

BANFIELD: You`ve got this abandonment here in New York, and you`ve got that murder in Connecticut. Which one takes precedence?

ZELIN: Well, right now, the evidence would point to New York because you have a slam-dunk, endangering the welfare of a minor. So I lock him up in

New York. I go to the judge and say, Judge, he`s a flight risk. Forget about the charges in this (INAUDIBLE) punishment. He`s already

demonstrated he`s a flight risk. He left a 5-year-old! What more do I need to know about him coming to court? He take care of his own kid!

BANFIELD: Yes. All right, old that for a minute because while we`re talking about children, there is this other child I want to talk about for

a moment, a child who is dead. His mother has been charged with his murder.

But here`s where it gets really weird. Two of his social workers are also being prosecuted. What do you suppose is up with that?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:26:10]BANFIELD: A 3-year-old abused and allegedly murdered by his own mother in Detroit. But it`s the family`s two social workers who are

surprisingly facing charges right alongside her. The list includes manslaughter and child abuse because prosecutors say those workers didn`t

do enough to keep little Aaron Minor (ph) safe.

It was a maintenance work here found that little boy`s decomposing body inside their apartment while his mother was being treated in a psychiatric

hospital. Marie Osborne is an anchor at WJR 760 Newstalk radio in Detroit. She`s with me to try to put together some of these pieces.

Marie, how did they find this little child? What was the condition that they founds him in?

MARIE OSBORNE, WJR (via telephone): Ashleigh, this is a colossal tragedy, this entire story. The boy was found on May 25th on the city`s west side

in an apartment. The boy had been living there with his mother, 28-year- old Deanna Minor (ph). And they had been placed there by a local homeless shelter, a very reputable one. They try to get placement for their

clients. So they were living there.

And he was discovered May 25th when a maintenance worker went to investigate an odor that was coming from the apartment. He goes inside,

discovers a decomposing body in a bed, and immediately calls police. Detroit police arrive on the scene, and they`re the ones then, of course,

who took over the investigation. And this baby found dead in the bed.

BANFIELD: So at that time, his mom, Deanna, was in a psychiatric hospital. Apparently, about 9 or 10 days prior to that, she had been found having a

breakdown on the front lawn of that apartment. EMS arrives, picks her up, takes her off to the emergency. She ultimately ends up committed. Did

anybody check to see if she had dependents?

OSBORNE: Well, that is a question that remains unanswered right now. Of course, we`re going to learn more as this case develops. But the question

is, at that time, she was found unresponsive, laying on the lawn of the apartment complex. This was on May 16th, so it was nine days before the

discovery of the boy dead.

She -- was she capable? Was she able to tell EMS that she had a child in the apartment? Was she able to even -- was she verbal at all? These are

all questions we don`t have answers to. So we don`t know if she told anybody that there was a child in that apartment.

BANFIELD: So I guess the other question is -- you know, she`s scooped up off the lawn of her own building. So there would be people who would know

her in that building. It`s not as though they found her under a bridge and had no idea where she came from. She was at her own building, and that

child presumably was up in that apartment, and we don`t know if he was dead or alive at that time.

And that brings me to my next question. Marie, to they think -- are they suggesting that she killed that little child, and then went outside and had

her breakdown? Or are they suggesting she had a breakdown, and that child died slowly because he was 3 years old and unattended for nine days?

OSBORNE: Right. And so that is what is also remaining a question right now. The manner of death was determined by the medical examiner to be a

homicide. Cause of death, still undetermined.

So we don`t know if she killed that child, or as you say, was the child just left and neglected and unable to fend for himself and therefore died.

Now, she has other family. She has a mother. She has a great-grandfather that was quoted in the news media, spoke to -- spoke to us, spoke to

reporters.

And so you wonder, where were they during all this? They are blaming of course these two social service workers that they think they didn`t do

enough.

BANFIELD: Wow! That is astounding. There were family members who presumably would know that she`s committed or at least not there, and that she has a

3-year-old? Take a break for a second, Maria, if you will. I want to bring in Deanna Kelley because Deanna is the attorney for one of the social

workers who is facing charges.

That social worker is Kelly Williams, the Detroit CPS supervisor, who is charged in this case. Deanna, thanks so much for being with me. So as I

understand it, and you`re going to have to help me sort of walk through this a little bit. On April 21st, Elaina Brown, who works for your client,

works for Kelly, goes to this residence to do a check. A welfare check.

And it is determined with that welfare check that there is not enough food in the house. So your client and Elaina, the social worker, sent a letter

to Deanna saying, you got to get your stuff together here. There`s not enough food. And they didn`t get a reply. And here in.

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: . am I right?

DEANNA KELLEY, ATTORNEY REPRESENTING KELLY WILLIAMS: I think what you`re going to hear is that on April 20th, an allegation came in and a complaint

was made. And on April 21st, Elaina Brown along with two Detroit police officers went to have their face-to-face communication with mom and with

Aaron.

And it was determined that there was not enough food. So actually, Miss Brown did follow up the next day. She was told, look, I just got my

breached card. I`m going to be shopping tonight.

And Miss Brown said, look, I`m going to come back tomorrow to check on you and make sure there is enough food and that was done. That was done on the

22nd. There was enough food. There was no evidence of abuse or neglect.

BANFIELD: So why was a letter sent then three weeks later?

KELLEY: The letter was sent three weeks later. Again, I`m -- I haven`t been advised of all the facts. What I understand is that there was another

complaint by the same individual. The prosecution has indicated in a press release that the complaint talks about increased, I don`t know, imminent

risk I think was their wording.

But I`ll tell you, there was never an allegation of imminent risk. There was no evidence of imminent risk. What they were dealing with was a lady

with a mental health issue. And mental health is not prima facie evidence of imminent risk. There has to be some connection.

BANFIELD: Deanna, I guess the question, did CPS, your client and the woman who works for her who are both charged, did they know that Deanna Minor had

a breakdown and was taken in to emergency.

KELLEY: No.

BANFIELD: . and ultimately committed? Did they ever have that information? Did anyone from say the EMT or the hospital or the.

KELLEY: No.

BANFIELD: . psychiatric facility ever communicate this to your client`s office?

KELLEY: No. Not at all. In fact, Child Protective Services, they were still in an investigation phase. They`re supposed to complete their investigation

within 30 days. These women had no authority to act whatsoever without a court intervention. They absolutely no authority to act. They had no idea.

They had 30 days to close this investigation which would have been May 20th. Unfortunately, prior to May 20th was when Miss Minor was taken into

custody. Nobody bothered to tell them. I wanted to comment also. There was a question about the time frame of little Aaron`s death now indicates that

-- the mother is charged with murder.

And that suggests to me obviously that they believe that this child was, you know, killed prior to her being taken into custody given the fact that

she is charged with felony murder and second-degree murder.

BANFIELD: It certainly could be murder by neglect and recklessness as well. We just still don`t know if that child was dead when Deanna left that home

and had a breakdown on the lawn or whether that child, tragically, I can`t even stand the thought, of how this would have played out.

KELLEY: It`s unthinkable.

BANFIELD: . whether that child -- it`s unthinkable if that child just slowly expired over the almost week and a half. Like you said, it`s

unthinkable. Deanna Kelley, thank you for your input. I appreciate that. So was this boy killed because social workers missed some warning signs and

failed to act or are they scapegoats in what everyone agrees is just a tragedy?

[20:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Two social workers are charged in a 3-year-old boy`s death even though police say it was his own mother who killed him. So is that fair?

Joining me again, former prosecutor Randy Zelin and defense attorney Joey Jackson.

I know the two of you are really weighing on this. I was just asking the lawyer for one of the social workers about the time line of all of this.

And I`m really curious. If EMS comes and picks up a despondent woman on her front lawn and carts her away, do they have any duty to find out if there`s

a kid upstairs?

Does the hospital have any duty to find out, do you have children or pets or anything else while you`re committed here and clearly you`re going to be

here awhile? What`s the answer to this?

ZELIN: EMS stands for Emergency Medical Services. CPS stands for Child Protective Services. Therefore, I would respectfully submit while in the

calm and coolness of a studio, we can talk what they should have done.

But in that moment, no, I don`t believe it was their responsibility to do anything other than attend to the woman. Let`s say they did decide to go

look for kids and then suddenly she has a seizure and dies. They would be in a whole heck of a hot water.

[20:40:00] BANFIELD: I hear you. Did somebody ask her?

JOEY JACKSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: If you are this prosecutor, why not prosecute the EMS workers? Why not prosecute the police? Let`s get the

governor involved. This is an outrageous prosecution. To hold social workers accountable and responsible for a dead child should not happen.

ZELIN: That is his job.

JACKSON: These are social workers. What is their job? Their job -- they did their job, Randy. That job was to go to the home. And what they determined

when they went to the home is that there was inadequate food. There were no bruises on this girl. There was nothing to suggest that there was something

violent happening.

And the next day, they followed up, that is the social worker, followed up to determine that there was food. We`re talking about people. Why don`t we

start locking up politicians for not providing the adequate resources to them? How many other cases do they have to deal with? Why not get the

governor involved? How about the commissioner, Randy? Let`s investigate the commissioner.

ZELIN: If they did their job -- if they did their job, is that kid dead or alive?

JACKSON: Wait a second -- wait a second.

ZELIN: You didn`t answer me.

JACKSON: I`m going to answer the question. And here`s the answer to the question. They did their job. Why did they do their job? Because on the

21st, they went to that home. On the 22nd, they followed up to determine there was not food. And that was it. On the 22nd, there was food. When did

the child die, Randy? When did the child die?

BANFIELD: We don`t know. We don`t know the answer to that.

ZELIN: We don`t know.

JACKSON: You don`t know specifically but a month later, that child was dead.

BANFIELD: This is from the prosecutor`s office. The prosecutor is alleging that the CPS policy and procedure requires that when a family can`t be

located -- this woman did not respond to the letter, right? They failed to cooperate and there are allegations of imminent risk.

It`s not enough cheerios in the covered imminent risk because there kids being beaten right now as we speak and there are not enough social workers

to cover them all.

ZELIN: What you said is really important. They had an obligation. When they send the letter out to the mother and the mother does not respond, they had

an absolute obligation to do something else. By not doing their job, that`s when you have the gross deviation from the standard of care.

They closed their eyes to the high probability that there would be a problem. Joey, had they done their job and followed up, is that kid dead or

alive?

JACKSON: You know what? Let`s talk about this. The letter was sent out on May 9th. On the 25th, the child is dead. Or at least that`s when the visit

happened to find the decomposing body. Let`s lay the blame where it belongs. That`s what the mother -- the mother killed the child.

What about the mother`s family? Should we arrest them and prosecute them for saying nothing about how this mother was acting? What about friends of

the family? They didn`t say anything? What about neighbors? What about people who knew the family?

ZELIN: Joey, that`s their job.

JACKSON: It is the job of everyone to love and support children.

ZELIN: Can you imagine?

JACKSON: It`s the job of family to support children.

ZELIN: If this 3-year-old could speak from beyond. That`s a 3-year-old saying you were supposed to protect me. You were supposed to take care of

me. Where were you?

JACKSON: Who would they say it to? The mother they would say that to. The family they would say that to. Not to CPS who went and investigated. And

thereafter wrote a letter to follow up. It is the mother`s responsibility. Let`s arrest politicians. Let`s arrest governors. Why not arrest the

president for crime like that?

BANFIELD: I understand why there is this passion. That is because that little boy Aaron Minor is unbearably cute. And he is dead. And he it is a

tragedy. And there could be many hands that touched blame on this. It will be a story that we will continue to follow as we look at that adorable,

adorable little face.

The Chili`s restaurant chain prides itself on its outrage to those who serve in the military. But when a restaurant manager reached out and took

away a veteran`s free promotional meal, you can pretty much hear what happened. Now guess what happened when this went viral.

[20:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Injustice can come in many different ways and sometimes when it is least expected. This video is all over the internet right now, Ernest

Walker saying he went to a Chili`s near to get a burger. The chain was offering three meals to veterans on Veteran`s Day. But he says when another

customer challenged his military service, a manager came along and intervened, and not on his behalf. Instead that manager took away his food.

Take a look.

(START VIDEO CLIP)

ERNEST WALKER, U.S. ARMY VETERAN: Did you see my military information?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sir, you need to calm down.

WALKER: Did you see my military -- no, I`ll leave as soon as you answer my two questions.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The answer is no. I`m not answering your questions.

WALKER: Okay.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because I`m not going to answer your questions.

WALKER: Did you see my military service?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I asked you not to record.

WALKER: Did you see my military service?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sir, no, there.

WALKER: Yes, you did. That`s a lie, but you already said you did because I had that on record.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I didn`t.

WALKER: Yes you did.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I did not see it.

WALKER: People right there saw you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Didn`t see it, sorry.

WALKER: Yes, you did.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m going to take your food today, sir.

WALKER: Oh, now you`re grabbing my food away from me? You`re taking my food away from me now?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m so sorry. You didn`t provide any documents for me.

WALKER: Yes, I did. I just provide documents to you and they saw you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Chili`s has apologized. Chili`s says the manager has been removed from his post. Joining me now, U.S. army veteran with the 25th infantry

division Ernest H. Walker and his attorney Lee Merritt. Mr. Walker, thank you so much for being with us. Mr. Merritt, thank you.

Mr. Walker, may I just say, thank you for your service, to start this interview, because I think you definitely deserve that and a lot more. Tell

me what happened before you started.

WALKER: Thank you, I appreciate it.

BANFIELD: . yes, you deserve it. Tell me what happened before you started rolling the video. What led up to the video?

WALKER: Well, I went, you know, just to have a burger and take advantage, you know, of the meal that they offer. Which I`ve done it, you know, over

the years. I have lived in that area for 21 years, so I`ve gone to that Chili`s before. When I went in, I was seated. I was treated with kindness

by the waitresses. There was no issue with my service dog. And I sat down and ordered my burger.

The waitress brought my burger to me. I began to eat it. Then it took about 45 minutes -- 35 minutes for them to bring the burger. I ate it for another

10. I had to run an errand. So I said can I get a takeout? It was around that time, a gentleman, he came by. I hate to refer to him as a white

gentleman because, you know, I hate to try to see color.

But this gentleman started trying to befriend me, I believe, so I thought. And he started asking me questions. He asked me, was I in the 24th

infantry? And I`m like, that`s a trick question. You know, it`s the 25th. I wear this proudly. It is an elite unit. Not everybody gets to go to Hawaii.

So he told me, I served in World War II and blacks didn`t serve over there then.

You know, this is an old gentleman. He was probably stuck in his era. I don`t let that bother me. I`m not too sensitive about that. But I continued

to speak with him. Then he left. He went to the restroom. Came back very quickly. And started petting my dog.

Then he left and came back to the restroom again. I`m like this gentleman really has an issue or something with the restroom. It was around that time

the waitress brought my takeout order with the container. We put it in the container. I tipped her.

And the manager comes from the same area that the gentleman walked to and began to -- didn`t address me, didn`t say hello or anything. He just sort

of asking me, saying, a guest said that you are not a military veteran. And I was taken back by it. I had my I.D. and everything. He said, let me see

your I.D. I showed him my I.D.

BANFIELD: Can I just interrupt for a second? Is there some truth to some of the reports out there that the gentleman who came and questioned you was

wearing a Trump T-shirt?

WALKER: Yes, yes. Well, not a Trump T-shirt. He had an American flag as a shirt and he had a Trump -- I don`t know if it was a sticker or a button,

but it was a blue Trump on it. And yes, that is true.

BANFIELD: Did you get the feeling that this was somehow political? Did you get feeling this was somehow race-related? Did you get -- did you have an

immediate impression right away when he came and challenged you as to why he was challenging you?

WALKER: Initially, I didn`t. Because you are expected to show your I.D. at some of the places that you frequent on Veterans Day. But once he began to

question my service dog and I put two and two together, that the gentleman had spoken with him, yes. It became very racial. Because I believe he

approached me as if I was a black man trying to steal a meal.

That I would have the audacity to purchase a uniform and try to impersonate a military veteran. At that point, I believe that the manager, if this was

the same time last year, that he would have never acted that way. It was definitely due to the election and the temperature of America right now

that he felt emboldened.

BANFIELD: Mr. Walker, I want you to hold that thought for a moment. Because there are many different new avenues you and Mr. Merritt sitting beside you

can take. I`m going to ask you about that in a minute. But there is some perhaps who really know such thing as a free lunch after all. It should not

come with a side of humiliation. That is for sure. So what is the remedy? Back in a moment.

[20:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: The Chili`s restaurant chain has promotion that sounds like a win, a free meal for veterans on Veterans Day. What could go wrong? The

idea certainly back fired when a Chili`s manager questioned an army veteran`s service record and on this video actually snatched away his food.

Joining me again, Ernest H. Walker is that veteran with his attorney Lee Merritt by his side. Mr. Merritt, I want to address this question to you if

I can. I understand that you were present for a meeting that both of you attended with the Chili`s management, with the restaurant chain itself. How

did that go?

LEE MERRITT, ERNEST H. WALKER`S ATTORNEY: It went well. Mr. Walker was only available by phone because of a previously set doctor`s appointment. But in

that meeting, the Brinker group along with our attorney group, we discussed ways that we could deal with this conflict. And we all wanted to take a

positive tone.

We know it could go to confrontation or cooperation. We`re looking for ways that we can use this unfortunate incident to teach the nation that we`re

not maybe as divided as we seem and how we might bring some good from it.

BANFIELD: I only have a couple seconds left. Mr. Walker, there are so many routes you can go. Discrimination based on The Americans with Disability

Act, race discrimination, emotional distress, the list goes on. Is that the route that you want to take?

WALKER: As I mentioned, the attorneys are handling it. That`s why I jumped in on the question. We are trying to avoid litigation. If it becomes

necessary, we will. But the Chili`s group has been open to discussions about it. So that litigation can be avoided and again we can work together

to try to heal the nation.

BANFIELD: You`re both very kind to join me tonight. If I can say again, Mr. Walker, thank you for your service, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank

you, thank you, thank you for your service, sir. You deserve a lot of respect. We appreciate you being with us. Thank you to both of you. Mr.

Merritt, thank you as well.

WALKER: Thank you.

MERRITT: Thank you.

BANFIELD: Thank you, everyone, for being with us tonight. Great to have you with us. We would love to see you back here tomorrow night at 8:00 for

PRIMETIME JUSTICE. "FORENSIC FILES" starts right now.

END