Return to Transcripts main page
Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield
Officer Charged in Philando Castile Shooting; Mom Strangled Baby with Holiday Lights; Prosecutors to Appeal Release of Brendan Dassey. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired November 16, 2016 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[20:00:00] ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HLN HOST: It was a searing moment in our nation`s struggle with blue-on-black shootings. A girlfriend livestreams
video as her boyfriend lies dying in the car beside her. And now four months later, that officer who shot him has been charged.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You shot four bullets into him, sir!
BANFIELD (voice-over): The horrifying livestreaming of a police officer fatally shooting an African-American driver sparked anger and days of
protests and demands for justice.
PROTESTERS: Black Lives Matter!
BANFIELD: And tonight, the officer who shot and killed Philando Castile in the driver`s seat of his own car is facing manslaughter.
And a baby girl is strangled with a string of Halloween lights.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) emergency now! Oh, my God! She`s not breathing!
BANFIELD: The girl`s mother blames her 2-year-old son for the death. But now a very different story has emerged.
And who does this, burglary in the buff? This guy does.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BANFIELD: Hello, everyone. I`m Ashleigh Banfield. Welcome to PRIMETIME JUSTICE.
It is impossible to forget the images, raw, brutal, tragic and deeply disturbing, too, a driver bleeding, his white shirt soaked in blood as the
life quickly drains from his body after he`s struck by bullets from a police officer`s gun, the horrible aftermath of what could have been a
routine traffic stop, but it wasn`t.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stay with me. We got pulled over for a busted taillight in the back. And the police just -- he`s -- he`s covered. They
killed my boyfriend. He`s licensed. He`s carrying. So he`s licensed to carry. He was trying to get out his ID and his wallet out his pocket, and
he let the officer know that he was -- he had a firearm and he was reaching for his wallet. And the officer just shot him in his arm. We`re waiting
for...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Keep your hands where I can see them!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I will, sir.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: The victim, a 32-year-old Philando Castile, an African-American man, worked in a school cafeteria. His girlfriend, who you just saw,
Diamond Reynolds captured and livestreamed his death on her cell phone with chilling, grieving narration.
Today, Officer Jeronimo Yanez stands charged with second degree manslaughter and some lesser counts, as well. Did the prosecutors go too
far? Did the prosecutors go far enough?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN J. CHOI, RAMSEY COUNTY ATTORNEY: Philando Castile did not exhibit any intent nor did he have any reason to shoot Officer Yanez. In fact, his
dying words were in protest that he wasn`t reaching for his gun. There simply was no objective threat posed Officer Yanez, Officer Kauser (ph) or
to anyone in that car.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Tonight, there is new insight into what really happened in the exchange between Castile and the officer just seconds before those shots
were fired. CNN correspondent Rosa Flores has been digging into this. She joins me from Chicago live.
So what are the charges exactly?
ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, there are three charges in this case, Ashleigh. First of all, the second degree manslaughter charge that
you spoke of that carries a maximum sentence of 10 years in prison. And then the two lesser charges are for the discharge of the firearm because,
like you mentioned, we cannot forget here is that his girlfriend, Diamond Reynolds, was sitting right next to him, and her 4-year-old daughter was
sitting in the back seat.
BANFIELD: OK. So I`m going to get to that in a moment, Rosa. But what I`m curious about is we`ve seen so much of that Facebook livestream video.
And all of it is after the fact. But there is a big before the fact that we don`t know yet, and some of that was actually articulated today.
So what is the evidence with regard to that video, the officer`s dashcam video? What do we know about the narrative leading up to this actual
event, the shooting, that led to the charges?
FLORES: You know, that dashcam video is really the last piece of this puzzle because, like you said, we`ve all seen the livestream video. But
the county attorney today mentioned that that dashcam video actually captured the before, the during and the after, Yanez actually approaching
the car, asking him for his license and registration, and then Philando Castile telling him that he had a gun.
Now, that`s where the situation starts to escalate, Ashleigh, because the county attorney is saying that the officer interrupted Castile twice while
Castile was simply trying to explain to the officer that he had a gun.
[20:05:08]Now, very quickly, seven shots are fired. And now, of course, we know that those shots were fatal for Philando Castile. But the other thing
that the county attorney points to, Ashleigh, is the reaction of his partner, the other officer, who didn`t withdraw his weapon, and when asked
about the shots fired during an interview, he said he was surprised that his partner fired those shots.
BANFIELD: And I`m going to get to that, too. It`s a big part of this puzzle. But first, what the Ramsey County attorney said, Rosa, about sort
of, you know, unleashing those seven shots into that vehicle and the significance of the other people in the car. Have a listen to John J. Choi
as he outlined that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHOI: He emphatically stated that he wasn`t pulling it out. His movement was restricted by his own seatbelt. He was accompanied in his vehicle by a
woman and a young child.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: So Rosa, we`ve seen the woman. We`ve heard the voice of the young child on that Facebook livestream, just heartbreaking, saying, I`m
with you, Mommy, as she was -- her grief was just pouring out after having to go through all of this.
One question for you. How long did it take from the initial traffic stop until those shots were fired?
FLORES: You know, those tense moments actually happened in one minute, according to the criminal complaint. That`s what it says, 60 seconds by
the time that the officer stopped Castile, that those seven shots were fired. And then in a lapse of 40 seconds, that`s when the world started
watching. That`s when the livestream started that we have all seen, all of that video. So it was a very, very short period of time.
BANFIELD: All right, stand by, Rosa. One thing that people might not know about Philando Castile is that he worked at a Montessori. It was J.J.
Montessori elementary school. He had a lot of kids that really liked him a lot.
He had a lot of co-workers that really liked him a lot, and Anna Carnaas (ph) was one of them. She worked with Philando Castile. She`s with me
live now. Anna, can you hear me?
XX: Yes.
BANFIELD: I just wanted you to give me your take on the loss of this man, of Philando Castile, and what he meant to you and the kids at your school.
XX: OK. I talked to you about this briefly this summer, but Philando was a man that loved the children, loved his co-workers. Every time I asked
him how he was, he`d say, Just another day in paradise or give you a wink and make them laugh. He knew all the kids` names. He knew who was
allergic to what.
(INAUDIBLE) the summer was difficult but the fall`s been more so because the children were the most directly impacted by Phil. They called him Mr.
Phil. He knew their names. He was just -- he was their buddy. He was a role model. He was the guy that they knew and trusted, very laid back, go
to baseball games with, you know, our male co-workers, and just the coolest guy, went through the St. Paul public school system, never would ever think
he would be a threat to anyone, just gentle.
And this fall, we`ve received many donations, gifts. One group out east knitted a doll for every child at our school that was unique and different.
And the children in my class spent a good hour just reflecting and deciding what we`d do with our dolls. And many of the children said, you know, I`m
going to put my doll on the shelf, and any time I miss Phil or feel like I need to talk to him or ask him questions, I`m going to take him down, take
this doll down and hold it and know that, you know, he`s still with me.
BANFIELD: Oh! I mean, it just sounds like he was...
(CROSSTALK)
BANFIELD: It just sounds like he was a great guy and that his loss is a huge void. But of course, it`s also important to note -- and I want my
viewers to know this -- Officer Yanez did not know any of this about Philando Castile. So let`s be real clear about that. Mr. Phil was beloved
by you, your colleagues, by the kids, but Officer Yanez had no idea who he was approaching.
And to that, I want to bring in Darrin Porcher, retired NYPD lieutenant and also criminal justice expert. And you get police procedure. You know how
this works. You know what it`s like for officers. Every stop could be their last. Clearly, some don`t do it right. Some do it right and get
shot themselves.
With that in mind, I want to read for you, if I can, part of the probable cause affidavit with regard to Officer Yanez`s actions that day because I
think it helps to understand what was going on. We know what happened after from the Facebook Live. We don`t know until we`ve got this from the
prosecutors.
[20:10:04]Officer Yanez, said, OK, don`t reach for it then, referring to the gun that Mr. Castile had said he had. He offered up, volunteered that
information. Castile responded I`m -- inaudible -- reaching before being again interrupted by Yanez, who said, Don`t pull it out. Castile
responded, I`m not pulling it out.
And Reynolds -- that`s the officer, the other officer -- no, excuse me, that`s the -- excuse me. That`s the girlfriend. That`s Diamond Reynolds -
- also said, He`s not pulling it out. Officer Yanez screamed, Don`t pull it out, and quickly pulled his own gun with his right hand while he reached
inside the driver`s side window with his left hand. Officer Yanez removed his left arm from the car, then fired seven shots in the direction of
Castile in rapid succession.
When you hear that, with your background knowledge of policing and procedure, what do you think?
DARRIN PORCHER, RETIRED NYPD LIEUTENANT: It`s a very troubling narrative, to say the least. The use of force is always ugly. I trained recruit`s in
the NYPD`s police academy for a number of years, and the one thing that I always focused on is, use the minimum amount of force necessary.
From a procedural aspect -- let`s take into consideration the tactics. Your traditional pistol permit holder understands how to introduce
documentation to police officers, and that was amplified by the passenger in the car. One of the things is, whenever you`re stopped by police,
inform officers that you are in possession of a firearm, the location, and your documentation. From what I hear, that seems to be true. And we have
a dashcam video that`s also backing up the passenger`s story on this.
But tactically, this was a terrible job. The officer -- and this is something that really hasn`t come out in your complaint. The officer,
although he stopped him for a broken taillight, he initially stopped him for -- he believed that this individual fit the description of a robbery
suspect. If this was someone that fit the description of a violent robbery, you should have acquired and moved in greater resources, created
what we refer to as a zone of...
BANFIELD: He shouldn`t have been at that window...
PORCHER: Right. Exactly.
BANFIELD: ... if that`s who he thought Philando Castile was. Is that what you`re saying?
PORCHER: Exactly. And set up a zone of safety.
BANFIELD: Let me be real clear about one other thing because a dashcam video -- which they have not released, so we don`t know what`s on the
dashcam video. It would not see inside the car. It would not give the perspective of what Officer Yanez was seeing, correct, the dashcam video?
PORCHER: It could possibly, depending upon the angle.
BANFIELD: Down below the dashboard?
PORCHER: No, down below? No. No.
BANFIELD: So this is what the defense attorneys are going to seize on, right? They`re going to say, You see the dashcam video, do you see his
hands? Do you see what Mr. Castile is doing? Do you see what Officer Yanez is seeing? Do you see it looks threatening to Yanez? Do you see
that on the dashcam video? We`ll get the transcript. We`ll hear the audio eventually when they release it, but they won`t see that, correct?
PORCHER: Right. But like you mentioned, the audio -- the dialogue is of optimum importance. You will hear the officer`s commands and you will hear
the responses from the deceased in the car.
BANFIELD: OK.
PORCHER: That tells a tremendous story.
BANFIELD: So there`s words and there`s actions, and those will be competing...
(CROSSTALK)
PORCHER: Right, but you`re going to be able to corroborate both.
BANFIELD: So when this ends up actually going to trial -- as I said, they didn`t release that video yet, but that crime scene video and that dashcam
video is going to be the star.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:17:20]BANFIELD: A 4-year-old girl, just 4 at the time, and she was in the car when Philando Castile was gunned down by a police officer during a
traffic stop. Her mom was in the car, too. Can only imagine the life-long pain and trauma that she experienced that day, as well as Diamond Reynolds.
Darrin Porcher joins me live again with this. So there`s an additional issue when it comes to the procedure. We were talking about what Yanez
might have seen as he discharged his weapon.
I want you to talk to me about two things, the fact that he was in a position where he was looking straight into the car and the face of
Philando Castile...
PORCHER: Right.
BANFIELD: ... as opposed to being behind him...
PORCHER: He should have been behind him. That would have been the tactical solution.
BANFIELD: And there were two other people in the car. What kind of metric goes into play if you`re going to discharge your weapon and there`s
additional -- and a child in particular -- in a car?
PORCHER: You have to be cognizant to the fact that you need to preserve life for everyone at all costs. And that`s where we had a tactical
nightmare. The officer should have been positioned behind Mr. Castile, so if, worst case scenario, if he was to shoot Mr. Castile, the bullets
wouldn`t have engaged the passenger in the back seat nor the front seat.
BANFIELD: OK, joining me now, former prosecutor Bob Schalk and also defense attorney Eric Johnson. Eric, I want to just mention real quickly
that the backup officer who was also on the scene and was on the other side of the, car back seat window -- so imagine passenger side back seat window.
He said that he didn`t pull his gun. He also said that he was absolutely surprised that Yanez began shooting.
But he also said this. "I don`t know if he was reaching for a firearm or a wallet. I couldn`t see." Is that music to the defense attorney`s ears?
Because if he couldn`t see, do any of his statements prior to that saying, you know, I was surprised and I didn`t pull my gun -- do those matter?
ERIC JOHNSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, actually, everything plays into the role here. The fact that he couldn`t see from the position that he was
shows that this situation is something that could have escalated quickly. The fact that he wasn`t able to see the gun and would not have been able to
see the gun from his position as (ph) it found out that the gun was in Mr. Castile`s right pocket, the officer wouldn`t have been able to see that.
So the fact that he -- that this situation elevated so quickly when the Officer Yanez saw that he thought he was reaching for a gun, he reacted
very quickly. So the fact that the officer didn`t see anything would actually help the defense to show that this was a quick situation and no
type of premeditation on Officer Yanez`s part.
BANFIELD: But Bob, if you think about it, there`s another cop on location. There`s another cop who`s in a position where he should be, behind as
opposed to in front of the action. And he didn`t pull his gun. He didn`t pull -- he didn`t feel the need to even have his gun out. That matters.
ROBERT SCHALK, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Absolutely, it matters, and here`s why. Because his testimony is going to bolster the case for the prosecution. He
didn`t feel the need to pull his own weapon. His partner did not announce to him that Mr. Castile had a weapon.
[20:20:04]And he -- and quote, unquote -- the devastating statement is, "I was surprised that he pulled his weapon." That Is going to be what they
use to gauge whether or not the Officer Yanez was unreasonable in what he did.
BANFIELD: I can hear Eric! I can hear Eric saying, I don`t know. I don`t know. I don`t know.
JOHNSON: Oh, no, I mean, because you have two officers from two different vantage points, so these officers are not seeing the same thing. The
second officer, based on tactical things, his observations would have been toward the passenger and the other person in the back of the car. So he
would have not been paying attention to Mr. Castile while Officer Yanez was conducting this investigation.
And because it got to the point where they were asking for identification and this happened so rapidly, the question is, did he hear him -- the
Officer Yanez say, Don`t reach for it. Don`t reach for it. So if he heard those type of things, then the fact is he would have had some knowledge
that there was some type of situation going on without Officer Yanez going out saying that he had a gun.
BANFIELD: Well, and it all happens in a split second, which is important to remember, as well. And yet the enduring images are what Diamond
Reynolds did on Facebook Live, just so tragic and a real tragic loss here. We`re going to continue to follow that story.
And then there`s also this. When a baby is strangled by Halloween lights, the blame shifts from her little brother, a baby in his own right. to her
mother, quite an adult.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:25:35]BANFIELD: A mother from Florida told police she left her 1-year- old daughter in the living room watching TV with her 2-year-old son while she took a quick shower. When she returned, she said a string of Halloween
lights was around the little girl`s neck and that her son said he was sorry he hurt his sister.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God!
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) my house (INAUDIBLE) not breathing! She`s not breathing!
(END AUDIO CLIP)
BANFIELD: That little girl was pronounced dead at the ER. But as they scoured the home, detectives saw some clues that did not add up, and the
mother`s story -- well, it didn`t add up, so much so it began to actually unravel.
Joining me now, Ray Caputo, reporter for News 96.5 WBDO. Ray, what happened here?
RAY CAPUTO, WBDO (via telephone): Well, I mean, this is just an absolutely terrible situation. You hear the 911 call. Mom says that she`s in the
shower, and the little boy, her 2-year-old, is heard (ph) upset and says that he`s sorry for hurting his sister. And she comes out and finds --
absolutely terrible -- this little girl hanging. Her feet are still on the ground, but she`s kind of crouched over, tangled in Halloween lights with
pumpkins on them.
And then we hear that 911 call, and it`s just pure chaos, Ashleigh, dog barking, mom crying, the dispatcher talking her through chest compressions
and CPR, just a huge tragedy. And you know, the little girl is dead.
BANFIELD: I want to play a little bit more of that, if I can. Let me play some of the 911 call because I want to ask you about how it differed from
when they got to the scene. So listen in.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God!
911 OPERATOR: 911 (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) right now to my house! (INAUDIBLE) breathing! She`s not breathing! Oh, my God! (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: (INAUDIBLE) for me (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) emergency now! Oh, my God! She`s not breathing!
911 OPERATOR: (INAUDIBLE) stop breathing?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What?
911 OPERATOR: Who is not breathing?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) 1-and-a-half years old! Oh, my God! (INAUDIBLE) Oh, my God! (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: (INAUDIBLE) exactly what happened.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can`t hear you! I don`t know (INAUDIBLE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Sounds pretty convincing to me. But Ray Caputo, why were things different when authorities arrived at the house?
CAPUTO: Well, she told authorities initially she was in the shower, as I mentioned. But when they got to the hospital and she was interviewed and
kind of gave her story to the detectives, a detective actually went back to the house with her permission.
And what he found, it just didn`t add up. They went to the bathroom. The towel that she said she was using wasn`t wet. There were two bathrooms in
the house. The one she said that she was using, no signs of water marks, no water residue in the sink. Her feet were dirty. Her personal
appearance just didn`t look like somebody who had just gotten out of the shower and found it. Her makeup was smudged. Her jewelry was on. So
police didn`t believe her story in the end, Ashleigh.
BANFIELD: All right, I want to go now to Lieutenant Heather Capetillo. She`s the spokesperson for the Oviedo, Florida, police department.
Lieutenant, thanks so much for being with me. You just heard what Ray Caputo was reporting about the circumstances that your officers found...
LT. HEATHER CAPETILLO, OVIEDO POLICE DEPARTMENT (via telephone): Yes, ma`am.
BANFIELD: ... themselves in. So it sounds as though this would be the kind of crime scene that your officers would smell a rat right away. They
would know something was up. Is that true?
CAPETILLO: Initially, we didn`t until we went to the house.
BANFIELD: And when you got to the house...
CAPETILLO: That`s when we thought that...
BANFIELD: ... is that it, I mean, right away? You knew right away something was wrong?
CAPETILLO: Well, you know, when you have a traumatic situation with a mother that`s been through this and is going through it, you`re trying to
decipher what she`s saying to what is actually apparent for evidence, and the two didn`t add up.
BANFIELD: OK, so what was the first thing they saw when they got there? The description that we had -- I mean, it was very -- it`s traumatic, to
say the least, to find a baby tangled in lights. But how bad was it?
CAPETILLO: Initially, when we were called to the scene, it was for an unresponsive 1-year-old child. One of the officers got on scene and
actually performed CPR.
[20:30:00] The fire department went to the hospital and then the doctors pronounced her deceased. At that time, when we arrived on scene, there was
nothing on her neck.
BANFIELD: So that had been unraveled? You`re saying that.
CAPETILLO: Correct.
BANFIELD: The report that the mother said there were lights around her neck, all of that had been taken off by the time the police got there?
CAPETILLO: Correct, correct.
BANFIELD: So what were the police told? What did she tell the responding officers had happened?
CAPETILLO: Exactly what we just said, that.
BANFIELD: Wow.
CAPETILLO: . that the baby -- the 2-year-old was basically stating that he was sorry and she ran out and the baby was -- the infant was found in a
string of lights.
BANFIELD: The baby, the 2-year-old. We`re talking about two babies here. Mia, the victim in this case is 1, and her brother is 2. Is it possible to
do any kind of forensic interview with a 2-year-old? Were the officers able to ascertain anything from this 2-year-old on location?
CAPETILLO: No, ma`am.
BANFIELD: Nothing.
CAPETILLO: Nothing.
BANFIELD: So he certainly wasn`t making the utterances to your officers that his mother says he made to his mom, I did something wrong to the baby?
CAPETILLO: Correct.
BANFIELD: What about her comport? Ms. DePasquale`s comfort. When the officers got there, was she as distraught as she was on that 911 call?
CAPETILLO: She was upset. She was -- she became more upset after the baby was pronounced.
BANFIELD: So she.
CAPETILLO: They were still working on the baby at the hospital. Once that baby was pronounced, she lost it.
BANFIELD: There was one detail that stood out, and that was that her feet were -- and the devil is in the details, that her feet were dirty. She was
fully clothed. She said she had a shower.
Is it possible that she was walking about with bare feet after this had happened and because there was a crisis, she walked everywhere, maybe even
outside to greet the officers. Does that factor in here or was there something more to that detail?
CAPETILLO: There`s something more to that, and I can`t comment any further on that.
BANFIELD: Is it perhaps she had footwear on and when the footwear was removed, her feet were dirty underneath?
CAPETILLO: I can`t comment on that.
BANFIELD: I understand. Mia Rice`s mom had what she may have thought was a good alibi when the baby girl was strangled by Halloween lights. But the
authorities say she just couldn`t seem to keep her story straight.
[20:30:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: A 2-year-old, probably just learning to talk, is blamed for his sister`s strangling death. Until detectives see some telltale signs that
there might just be a lot more to this story. Back with me is Lieutenant Heather Capetillo. She is the spokesperson for the Oviedo, Florida police
department. Lieutenant, thank you so much for staying around.
I want you to bring in the forensic issue that came up when the medical examiner had a look at that 1-year-old baby, Mia. There was something
unusual on the neck of that baby. Can you explain why that lends itself to this case?
CAPETILLO: It was ligature marks on the infant`s neck. And basically it was -- she said that the cord was pulled by an individual that was using
extreme force and a 2-year-old can`t do that.
BANFIELD: Is the extreme force the only issue? Because it would seem that the medical examiner was moving towards a garrote being used. Whenever I
hear that, I think of JonBenet Ramsey because that is how JonBenet Ramsey was found, with a twisted garrote that tightened the ligature around her
neck. Does that comport with what you know of this case?
CAPETILLO: I can`t comment any further on that part.
BANFIELD: I suppose the.
CAPETILLO: The medical examiner said it would take four to six minutes to effectuate the death of a child by strangulation.
BANFIELD: Four to six minutes even for a 1-year-old baby?
CAPETILLO: Yes.
BANFIELD: And didn`t Ms. DePasquale say that she had been in the shower only for a few minutes?
CAPETILLO: Correct.
BANFIELD: So that doesn`t jive with the possibility that a 2-year-old could wrap Halloween lights around the neck of his 1-year-old little sister with
some kind of a method of force for a length of time, that it just doesn`t work with the story that Ms. DePasquale gave you.
CAPETILLO: The 2-year-old couldn`t use force for that long a period of time.
BANFIELD: I want to bring in back Ray Caputo who is with us with News 96.5 WDBOI. Ray, what is the resounding reaction from neighbors or people who
knew this woman, knew this family? Did they seem to be in disarray? Did it seem to be an abusive situation? What was the story about this mother and
her kids?
[20:40:00] CAPUTO: Not at all, Ashleigh. Kind of interesting, one of my friends called just before we did the show. He lives in that neighborhood.
I`ve been to that neighborhood. I was in that neighborhood. You know what? I may have been there the exact day this happened. It`s a very quiet
neighborhood.
There`s a school and lots of residential houses, kids playing. So neighbors are obviously shocked. Any time this sort of thing happens, people are
shocked. But this is not the type of neighborhood this happens. The house is just a general run of the mill middle class house and people are
shocked, downright shocked.
BANFIELD: Yes. It`s really hard to wrap your head around the idea that a mom with a 2-year-old in the house would decide to wrap Halloween lights
around the neck of her 1-year-old baby and twist a garrote until the life is snuffed out of that baby.
It is really hard to wrap your head around that one. And yet, that is the tough road ahead for prosecutors but also for the defense in this case. Get
the latest news on social media, on Facebook @ashleighbanfield and twitter @ptjusticehln. There it is. Write it down. Use it wisely.
[20:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: If she`s convicted, a mom who tried to blame her 1-year-old daughter`s death on her 2-year-old son, she could face a death penalty. And
I want you to listen to her voice as she is on the call with 911. This is Kristen DePasquale panicking over her little girl presumably dying. Have a
look.
(START VIDEO CLIP)
KRISTEN DEPASQUALE, CHARGED WITH MURDER AND CHILD NEGLECT: Okay, she`s spitting up something. She`s spitting up like orange vomit. It`s probably
her goldfish that she was eating earlier.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I need you to turn her on her side.
DEPASQUALE: Okay.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Turn her on her side.
DEPASQUALE: Okay. Okay.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is she breathing?
DEPASQUALE: I can`t tell.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I need you to wipe out her nose and wipe out her mouth, okay?
DEPASQUALE: Okay.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Joining me now former prosecutor Christine Grillo and defense attorney Joey Jackson. Guys, that`s the kind of tape that goes into court.
That`s the kind of thing that juries hear. That`s the kind of thing where juries say, she`s really grieving, she can`t possibly have done this. Who
does this? Who actually snuffed the life out of that little 1-year-old using a garrote and Halloween lights? It`s a heck of an uphill job for the
prosecutor.
JACK JACKSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: For the defense certainly in representing her, it`s an uphill battle because.
CHRISTINE GRILLO, FORMER PROSECUTOR: I don`t think.
JACKSON: You don`t think?
GRILLO: No.
JACKSON: For the defense representing her?
GRILLO: Absolutely not.
JACKSON: Take it away.
GRILLO: No, no, no. Let me hear your defense and then I`ll tell you what I`m thinking because as a prosecutor, all I have is circumstantial
evidence.
JACKSON: I think you have a lot more than that. I think when you look at the police report, I don`t want to argue the prosecution, but when you look
at the police report, the police came and they said, clearly, there was no indication that anyone else have broken into the apartment.
It was her, the two children who are in the apartment. There was a 4 to 6- minute period where the child would be strangled and as a result of that, how does that occur if no one else has access? In addition to that,
speaking for the prosecution as a defendant, defense anyway, there`s inconsistent statements. I`m in a shower, but the shower is dry. You know.
BANFIELD: Towels are dry. Shower is dry.
JACKSON: Everything is dry and so.
BANFIELD: Her feet are dirty.
JACKSON: And remember this and I think someone, you know, of Kristen, I will tell you, prosecution, circumstantial evidence is evidence. And a jury
is reminded about that.
GRILLO: He makes a great point, but now I`m going to switch roles and going be the defense attorney. I`m going to say that the circumstantial evidence
is not going to be enough in this type of case. As you said before, it is so hard to convince anyone even with the strongest evidence that a mother
can do this to her child. And now you`re going to.
BANFIELD: Casey Anthony.
GRILLO: Casey Anthony. How about Andrea Yates?
(CROSSTALK)
JACKSON: But in switching that role, who else could have done it? Who else would have had access to the child -- the child that had been strangled.
GRILLO: That cannot be beyond the reasonable doubt. Nobody else could have done it. Therefore.
(CROSSTALK)
BANFIELD: . the killer could still be out there theoretically.
GRILLO: Theoretically or it could just be an argument that the defense is going to make. Yes, there is circumstantial evidence here but it does not
rise to the level of beyond the reasonable doubt.
BANFIELD: Let me ask you something.
GRILLO: Remember that burden is very high.
BANFIELD: When the cops come to your office, Christine, they say this woman who sounds so distraught on 911, there`s no water in that shower, she says
she was on the shower. Those towels are bone dry in that apartment.
JACKSON: Her feet are dirty.
BANFIELD: Her feet are dirty.
JACKSON: . when she said she showered.
GRILLO: There`s more to that, we heard.
BANFIELD: She`s wearing full clothing, jewelry, makeup, all the rest.
GRILLO: It doesn`t add up.
BANFIELD: And the garrote. The medical examiner is saying, ain`t no 2-year- old I know that has the strength to pull this. You think that`s weak?
GRILLO: Okay. I think it`s weak in that the burden is so high. It is beyond the reasonable doubt. It a defense attorney can come in and do it properly
to that jury and convince them that they need to have this beyond the reasonable doubt because it is so unlikely that this mother killed this
child. You could draw any other possibility.
JACKSON: Here`s the bigger problem, Christine, what I believe. When you look at those pictures of that child, it weighs heavily. And we know the
juries will always say, what the judge will instruct the jury, emotion is not to be involved, you are to base it on the facts. And you can`t do it
because when you see a precious child like that and they`re dead and the mother has inconsistent stories, what`s the conclusion?
BANFIELD: All right. We are going to watch that. And we`ve got this on the radar as well. It looks like Branden Dassey who gained infamy in Netflix`s
documentary "Making a Murderer" is about to get out of jail. Really, walk free.
[20:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: You know, sometimes, there are just too many stories and you can`t decide which ones you`re going to do. So right now, I`m going to do
them all, but I have a little help, a little help from my friends. Christine Grillo, Joey Jackson, and Bob (ph) join me live right now.
All right, guys, here`s a few things that crossed our radar today that I just thought you would have some opinions on maybe one way or the other.
GRILLO: Us, really?
BANFIELD: Yes, believe it or not. Brendan Dassey, it`s almost like you don`t even have to tell the story anymore. Everybody knows. He is at
"Making a Murderer". This is the kid that they.
JACKSON: Questioned -- coerced a confession. Then they`re surprised that the judge has thrown out the conviction and saying he can go home.
GRILLO: Okay. He was tricked into confessing. He wasn`t forced to lie. So the courts are not saying what he said is not true. What they`re saying is
the method that they used, they don`t like.
JACKSON: It was untrue. He has a low IQ.
GRILLO: That`s called a ruse.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The state policing him getting out, that`s adding zero to the end of the check if they potentially going to have to write him if
he files wrongful conviction and wrongful imprisonment.
[20:55:00] JACKSON: Absolutely because.
UNIDENTIFED MALE: Let him out, saving the money.
BANFIELD: All right. So.
JACKSON: His conviction, Ashleigh, was based on his confession. They grilled him on that witness stand and he couldn`t get out.
BANFIELD: I`ve got six more. You have to see the video for this one. It`s kind of weird. It`s in Maryland. All I can say is that when I saw the
pictures, I said, we got to cover this. Some dude decided to burglarize a pizza place. That sounds so weird. But this is how he did it. I have to
fuzz out the significant parts of this because the significant parts are showing. He ripped his pants on the way in.
JACKSON: You ripped your pants, Ashleigh, but how does that account for your clothes being off and you go in literally butt naked to rob a place?
GRILLO: I think he thinks, you know, the emperor war has new clothes. I think this is the burglar with his new disguise?
BANFIELD: Did you see that little thing in the right hand corner? Look closely. What does it say?
GRILLO: Was it a shirt?
BANFIELD: No. I think it`s under our banner right now. Rear door. Rear door.
GRILLO: Clearly. And what`s showing?
BANFIELD: Rear door. The worst part is he didn`t get anything.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is why criminal defense attorneys will always have a job.
(CROSSTALK)
BANFIELD: . he clearly lost his shirt. He did not get anything.
(CROSSTALK)
BANFIELD: . so we got the naked burglary. He`s out there somewhere. This next one is a bit weird. Police officers and the body cams, big issues
these days. There`s this whole group of police officers in Round Lake Park, Illinois who got their body cams and have been using their body cams. Turns
out the body cams didn`t ever shut off.
JACKSON: Like when they were doing things like going to the bathroom and other things.
GRILLO: They`re worried about this.
JACKSON: Here`s why I don`t really feel bad for them. It wasn`t like it was a live feed out to the public. The commissioner and the commissioner`s
assistant saw it, and of course, it tapes over each other every 24 hours.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In today`s social media world, you don`t know who is viewing it, you don`t know who`s going to record it.
(CROSSTALK)
JACKSON: Have you seen this?
GRILLO: No.
JACKSON: Okay.
BANFIELD: But someone did.
(CROSSTALK)
BANFIELD: Can you imagine -- have you ever heard cops make fun of cops? They mean business so there is that. Okay. This next one, I hate it when
there`s loud noise at 4:00 in the morning outside my window and it makes me up. I hate it even more when it`s repeated. There`s this whole neighborhood
that`s been terrorized by a 4:00 a.m. air horn.
JACKSON: He`s lucky to be alive.
(CROSSTALK)
BANFIELD: Look at this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This guy`s mugshot is fantastic.
BANFIELD: It truly is.
JACKSON: Thank goodness for the citizen`s arrest, right? The ability of neighbors to band together to get him off the street.
GRILLO: Is that why he looks like that in his mugshot?
(CROSSTALK)
BANFIELD: It was happening in California. This is where it is happening. This guy did it allegedly for weeks, waking up the neighbors regularly
around 4:00 in the morning. Just air horning away and zipping off in his car. No one can catch him in time.
GRILLO: Somebody made him mad.
BANFIELD: I do love the mugshot. Okay. I don`t know if any of you ever turned 50. I`m coming up on a 50th. Rest assured one of my bucket list
items is not to get high.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you do, are you going to dime out your daughter and get her arrested, too?
(CROSSTALK)
BANFIELD: So for those of you wondering what is she talking about? This is crazy. There`s this assistant principal who actually ended up in the
hospital because allegedly one of her bucket list items was to try weed. And allegedly her daughter got her a cookie from a co-worker of her
daughter`s and that cookie put her in the hospital. This is an assistant principal.
JACKSON: None of the kids got hurt, all right? It`s all good. And she tried her cookie.
GRILLO: They`re prosecuting her.
BANFIELD: Yes, prosecuting her.
GRILLO: You have ODs that show up in hospitals all the time. They don`t prosecute them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where is the possession? In her body?
GRILLO: But she`s a principal. So they`re prosecuting her because she`s a principal.
JACKSON: None of the children got hurt.
GRILLO: . or because of cookie or choice of drug. I don`t know.
JACKSON: How did she know that there was any drug in the cookie?
BANFIELD: By the way.
(CROSSTALK)
BANFIELD: We love this principal.
JACKSON: Do you understand why?
(LAUGHTER)
BANFIELD: There we go.
BANFIELD: Now you`re telling me you`ll like me more as an anchor on my 50th birthday.
BANFIELD: We love you anyway.
BANFIELD: Thank you all so much. Joey, Bob, Christine. Let`s do this again sometime. Thank you. We can do this again too. Thanks for watching tonight.
I`m Ashleigh Banfield. See you back here tomorrow night 8:00 p.m. PRIMETIME JUSTICE. Don`t go anywhere, because "FORENSIC FILES" starts right now.
[21:00:00]
END
