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9/11-Era Tracking System Could be Revived; Trump Claims Credit on Ford Factory Remaining in Kentucky; Fake News Writer Says He Helped Trump Win; Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired November 18, 2016 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[10:30:00] DREW GRIFFIN, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: The screening of people from certain high risk countries is just the start of the ACLU's problems with Chris Kobach. He has spoken before groups critics consider to be white nationalists. He's pushed for very strict immigration laws in at least six states. He was the architect behind Arizona's controversial State Bill 1070 which allows police to ask for immigration papers for anyone who looks like they might be from another country.

Kobach has been sued at least half a dozen times over his policies against illegal immigrants. The ACLU says if Trump follows his advice, they expect to file many more lawsuits.

OMAR JADWAT, ACLU: Our focus is on his policies and on the abject failure of those policies to respect the Constitution and the laws and the fact that they have been incredibly discriminatory.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRIFFIN: And Carol, while the transition team hasn't officially responded to this story, we are hearing from a couple of sources that this does not involve every single Muslim majority country, just those countries that have high risk for terrorists specifically ISIS.

It is an extension of a program already in use, but sources say it could track people as they are in the United States, not just when they come into the United States -- Carol.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Drew Griffin, reporting, thank you.

With me now to talk more about this is Joanne Lin. She's the legislative counsel for the ACLU.

Welcome, Joanne.

JOANNE LIN, ACLU LEGISLATIVE COUNSEL: Delighted to be here, Carol. Good morning.

COSTELLO: Nice to have you here. Will the ACLU file suit if President-elect Trump attempts to implement any kind of registry?

LIN: Well, the ACLU is closely tracking what the Trump administration is talking about. We are very concerned about Chris Kobach's statements that the transition team is mulling resurrecting the National Security Entry-Exit Registration System, called NSEERS. This system was a completely failed counterterrorism tool. Zero out of 93,000 people were actually convicted of terrorism.

Let me repeat that. There were 93,000 people who actually registered under this program and there were zero terrorism convictions that were yielded from this mass profiling program.

COSTELLO: Well, Joanne, I can -- I can hear some people saying that's because they knew they were fingerprinted and they would be interrogated and maybe this prevented them from committing crime.

LIN: What the program showed after several years is -- and the inspector general said this himself which is the Department of Homeland Security watchdog, was that it was a complete waste of government resources. It cost American taxpayers over $10 million a year and it yielded zero terrorism convictions. Meanwhile, the NSEERS program alienated Muslim immigrants, Arab and South Asian communities across the country. Countless families saw their fathers, uncles and brothers who reported for registration, some of them disappearing and eventually being deported. So --

COSTELLO: What if the program, Joanne, included countries like Britain and France? Because let's face it, they've had people who were inspired by ISIS commit terror acts in their countries. So what if they, too, those countries, were on the list?

LIN: I have no idea what the Trump administration is contemplating right now in terms of which countries might be included in some type of special registration program. We do know that in the aftermath of 9/11 there were 25 countries listed and all but one were Muslim majority countries.

The Trump transition team right now is talking about Muslim majority countries so for the ACLU and for all Americans, we should be very concerned. Even though the Trump transition team is talking about this as a, quote, "extreme vetting program," this is really a sheep in wolf's clothing. It cannot be disguised as anything but a profiling program that is targeting Muslim immigrants in the United States.

COSTELLO: Well, I will say there is no question that hate crimes against Muslim Americans have risen. In fact, the attorney general, Loretta Lynch, just released a Justice Department report that showed hate crimes against Muslim Americans rose 67 percent in 2015.

Here's what she said about other kinds of hate crimes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LORETTA LYNCH, ATTORNEY GENERAL: I know that many Americans are concerned by a spate of recent news reports about alleged hate crimes and harassment. Some of these incidents have happened in schools. Others have targeted houses of worship. And some have singled out individuals for attacks and intimidation.

The FBI is assessing in conjunction with federal prosecutors whether particular incidents constitute violations of federal law. We need you to continue to report these incidents to local law enforcement as well as the Justice Department so that our career investigators and prosecutors can take action to defend your rights.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Now, Joanne, Jeff Sessions, the senator who's made controversial statements in the far distant past.

[10:35:06] It prevented him from becoming a federal judge under Ronald Reagan, do you think that he'll carry on with this concern, like Loretta Lynch? Because there's no reason to think he won't. I'm sure he's not supportive of hate crimes.

LIN: Yes. So Jeff Sessions is reportedly going to be the president- elect's nominee for attorney general and one of the -- I should be very clear, the ACLU does not take positions on Cabinet appointments. We are a nonpartisan organization. Our fidelity is to the Constitution. That being said, Jeff Sessions has a very extensive record as a senator and in Congress, and he was an early endorser of Trump's immigration plan which among other things, called for a revocation of birthright citizenship.

And what that means is that this would seek to revoke a constitutional protection that has been in place since after the civil war that guarantees that all children born on U.S. soil are American citizens.

This has been a critical engine for social equality and justice in the United States for 150 years and it's extremely alarming that the attorney general nominee as well as the president-elect support a revocation of birthright citizenship.

So the ACLU will be closely watching what the Trump transition team says on this issue as well as a host of other immigration and civil rights issues.

COSTELLO: And Joanne, I'm just curious about -- my last question for you, I'm just curious, have donations to your organization risen recently?

LIN: Yes. I will say that there are many Americans in communities across the country who are concerned about the recent election outcome. They have joined the ACLU as members because they want to join our fight to support the constitutional rights for all people in the United States regardless of the color of our skin, the god that we worship, any nationality or gender or sexual orientation.

So it has been a time when many Americans are making their views known through their pocketbooks and the ACLU stands ready to challenge any Trump administration policies that violate the Constitution.

COSTELLO: So can you give us -- just give us an idea, are donations up 40 percent, 50 percent?

LIN: I -- we need to consult with my Development Department on that but I will say that donations are definitely up. And the ACLU takes those donations seriously and we are going to be intensifying and increasing our work accordingly.

COSTELLO: Joanne Lin, thanks for joining me this morning.

LIN: Thank you so much, Carol.

COSTELLO: You're welcome.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, Trump says he saved a Ford factory from closing, but he really didn't.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:42:10] COSTELLO: Donald Trump facing a storm of criticism online after announcing that he himself stopped a Ford factory from moving from Kentucky to Mexico. This is what Mr. Trump tweeted. "Just got a call from my friend Bill Ford, chairman of Ford, who advised me that he will be keeping the Lincoln plant in Kentucky, no Mexico. I worked hard with Bill Ford to keep the Lincoln plant in Kentucky. I owed it to the great state of Kentucky for their confidence in me."

The only problem with this, Ford never planned on moving the plant across the border.

Cristina Alesci is here to explain. Good morning.

CRISTINA ALESCI, CNN MONEY CORRESPONDENT: Good morning. Yes, Donald Trump is taking a victory lap for something that he didn't do, essentially, and Ford is letting him have it, is letting him have that victory lap pretty much uninterrupted.

So what happened here was back in 2015, Ford made an agreement with the United Auto Workers to keep that particular plant in Kentucky and Ford also agreed to invest $700 million into that plant. So it had no plans to move to Mexico.

What Ford was considering was moving one line for the production of a specific car to Mexico, and it decided to keep it here. Now whether or not Ford just decided to give a bone to the president because the relationship has been so acrimonious throughout the campaign that it decided hey, maybe we will go along with this inflation of what he is saying, but they issued the statement last night that was very, you know, milquetoast corporate speak, didn't say that the president-elect was wrong. Just said we confirmed our decision to, you know, keep the -- what did they say?

Yes, "We confirmed with the president-elect that our small Lincoln utility vehicle made in Louisville will stay." And so it's like if you don't know the back story, you could actually think that they are agreeing with Trump here.

COSTELLO: So --

(LAUGHTER)

ALESCI: I don't -- like what?

COSTELLO: I know, what? Anyway, thanks for the explanation.

ALESCI: Of course.

COSTELLO: And I'm sure there will be more to come.

ALESCI: Yes.

COSTELLO: Cristina Alesci, thanks so much.

Still to come to in the NEWSROOM, flat-out lies deemed as the truth. The fake news writer who says he is the reason Donald Trump will be in office and the guilt he feels about that now.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:48:21] COSTELLO: All right. We told you earlier that Donald Trump -- Donald Trump's pick for director of the Central Intelligence Agency, the CIA, is Congressman Mike Pompeo from Kansas. Pompeo just issued a statement saying he is honored and humbled to accept the president-elect's nomination to lead the Central Intelligence Agency. So there you have it. Mike Pompeo very happy. We'll see what happens -- we'll see what happens and if he really is appointed because, of course, it has to go through Congress.

All right. Let's face it. Balancing reality versus fact this election has been exhausting and at times disturbing. Fake news headlines skyrocketed this campaign season, blitzing social media as Donald Trump and his team filed a deep distrust in mainstream media.

But did these blatantly false stories really matter when it came to electing Mr. Trump?

Self-proclaimed hoax writer and founder of a Facebook Fake News Empire, Paul Horner, is now speaking out. He talked with "The Washington Post" and here's some of what he said.

He said, quote, "I think Trump is in the White House because of me. His campaign manager posted my story about a protester getting paid $3500 as fact like I made that up." Horner went on to say, quote, "I thought they'd fact-checked it and it made them look worse, but Trump's supporters, they just keep running with it. They never fact- check anything. Now he's in the White House. Looking back instead of hurting the campaign I think I helped it and that feels bad."

With me now to talk about this is Matthew Ingram, senior writer at "Fortune" and Caitlin Dewey, "Washington Post" reporter.

Welcome to both of you.

So, Caitlin, I want to start with you because you interviewed Paul Horner. What did you take away from that? Because when I read your article, I didn't know what to make of Paul Horner, frankly.

[10:50:05] CAITLIN DEWEY, REPORTER, WASHINGTON POST: You know what, even after speaking with him, I'm not sure I know what to make of him either, to be quite frank. I think he is grappling with an issue that a lot of us are grappling with at this time which is, you know, we have this sudden understanding that there is a flood of fake news on Facebook, but we don't know exactly what sort of impact that had. And, you know, even as a writer of that fake news, he doesn't know what sort of impact he may or may not have had on the election and experiencing that sort of remorse and confusion is an interesting process to witness.

COSTELLO: So the disturbing part about this, Matthew, is fake news stories because you can give them such great headlines, right, they're actually read more than legitimate news stories.

MATTHEW INGRAM, SENIOR WRITER, FORTUNE: Right. And I think it's important to remember that people don't share things on Facebook because they're true. Just for most people, they just don't care. They share things because they make them feel a certain way, because they confirm biases they already have, and I think we saw that phenomenon on Facebook during this election. They've effectively weaponized human nature, our desire to share something because it triggers some strong emotion and not spend the time to fact-check.

COSTELLO: So, Caitlin, I would feel terrible posting something that I knew was untrue. I would feel horrible about doing that. So why doesn't Paul Horner?

DEWEY: Well, I think Paul sees his work as a bit of a political statement or a provocation. You know, he thinks he's making some greater statement about media literacy or online media literacy in the country. He thinks he's making a statement about how informed or maybe uninformed the voters are. And you know, he sees it as almost some kind of like meta performance piece. And arguably he's been effective in that. Maybe too effective.

COSTELLO: Yes, because -- I mean, I don't know if it came from Paul Horner, but General Mike Flynn, the man that Trump has -- Trump wants to name as his National Security adviser, this tweet remains on his Twitter account today.

Let's put it up on the screen so we can take a look. This is his tweet. And it came from something called TruePundit.com. "You decide. NYPD blows whistle on new Hillary e-mails, money laundering, sex crimes with children, et cetera, must read."

So, I mean, that's -- I mean, you look at that news, and say come on, you know that's false, but it is on Flynn's Twitter account to this day, Matthew.

INGRAM: Well, and I mean, that's part of the problem. This is what I thought was fascinating about the interview Caitlin was, this guy's intention was to make Trump supporters look bad and they did the exact opposite. They helped him by sharing all of that fake news. So in one sense, that makes his point. But in another sense, it's horrible. It's just a horrible outcome.

COSTELLO: And I don't want to just lay this on Trump supporters, right, Caitlin? Because I know plenty of Clinton supporters who read fake stuff and buy it, and also re-tweet it or post it on their Facebook feeds. I guess the question is, what can you really do about it? Because I know Facebook is trying.

DEWEY: Yes, you know, I think that's the big question now. And I think that's why we've seen so much news and so much outrage directed at Facebook and Google, you know, sort of looking at them and saying you are in a position of power, what are you going to do about this? And frankly, the answer so far seems that they don't know what they're going to do. They have taken action to disrupt the monetization, the business models of these fake news sites, maybe that will work. But in terms of what else a tech company can do, you know, that remains to be seen. At some level it comes down to basic media literacy and it would appear a lot of Facebook users just don't have it. So.

(LAUGHTER)

COSTELLO: So, Matthew, a final question for you because I think part of the problem is there have been mistakes made in mainstream media and there have been false stories perpetuated on networks lots and lots of people watch, so it's hard for people to differentiate sometimes what to believe and what not to believe.

INGRAM: That's true. And I think Caitlin is totally right. Media literacy is a big problem. But I do think there are things that Facebook and Google and Twitter can do. Facebook -- I'm afraid Facebook doesn't actually want to do that much because fake news is really engaging. People share it a lot. It gets people engaged. They are angry or they're happy or whatever. And so they share things and they spend a lot of time on Facebook. From Facebook's point of view that's a win.

COSTELLO: That makes me really sad, Caitlin, just to think about that. Because you know I always people you should listen to all networks. You should read as many blogs as you can, and then you should arrive at your own informed decision.

[10:55:01] But frankly, most people don't take the time to do that because you have to invest a lot of energy, right?

DEWEY: Right. I mean, you have to invest a lot of energy and you have to approach things with a certain sort of intellectual curiosity. Right? You know, Facebook is engineered and all social media are engineered to promote and reward types of content that sort of feed your -- like emotional instincts like, you know, Matthew said, like outrage, like anger, like fear, so in that system it's easy to see how fake news or things of that nature could flourish.

COSTELLO: All right. Matthew Ingram, Caitlin Dewey, thanks to both of you for joining me.

And thanks to you for joining me today. I'm Carol Costello. "AT THIS HOUR WITH BERMAN AND BOLDUAN" after a break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm John Berman.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Kate Bolduan. Breaking news this morning. President-elect Donald Trump making some big announcements.