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Trump Meets With Fierce Critic Mitt Romney; Trump Chief Strategist: "Darkness Is Good"; Critics Hit Trump For Lack Of Diversity In Cabinet Picks; World Leaders Brace For Pres. Trump; Obama Attending His Final Asia-Pacific Summit; Immigrants Flock To U.S. Before Trump Takes Office; Trump Meets With General Mattis; Securing Trump Tower. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired November 19, 2016 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[16:00:00] POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Top of the hour, you're live in the CNN Newsroom. I'm Poppy Harlow in New York. They were bitter enemies during the presidential campaign, but today, President-elect Donald Trump and Mitt Romney shook hands in a meeting that may have included talk about the job of secretary of state. To say that Trump and Romney have held and had a rocky relationship is putting it mildly.
Romney called Trump a con man, a phony, and a fraud who would bring trickle down racism to America. Trump in return called Romney a choke artist for losing the 2012 election. But that was then, and apparently this is now. What remains to be seen is whether the two will actually join forces. We did hear from Trump's team today that a national security appointment could be made sooner rather than later possibly even today more that in a moment.
But first, Phil Mattingly is live for us in Bedminster, New Jersey. We just heard from Romney. What did he say?
PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, that's right, Poppy. And I think the interesting element here is that you point it out, a couple of months ago, a couple of weeks ago, you wouldn't even imagine a hand shake between these --
HARLOW: Right.
MATTINGLY: -- two men, let alone the meeting the hour and 20-minute meeting that they had here in Bedminster. Mitt Romney flying to New York and driving up to New Jersey to sit down with Donald Trump. Donald Trump as they were walking out of the meeting said it was a great meeting. Mitt Romney making very clear was a meeting focused entirely on foreign policy. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MITT ROMNEY (R), 2012 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We had a far-reaching conversation with regards to the various leaders in the world where there are interests of the United States of real significance. We discussed those areas and exchanged our views on those topics. Very thorough and in-depth discussion in the time we had. And I appreciate the chance to speak with the president-elect and look forward to the coming administration and the things and that --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Governor --
(CROSSTALK)
ROMNEY: -- they're doing. Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTINGLY: And Poppy, the significance of only focusing on foreign policy is as you point it out, there's a lot of speculation, a lot of talk about --
HARLOW: Yes.
MATTINGLY: -- a potential cabinet position for Mitt Romney. That speculation largely is around the position of secretary of state. Now, we haven't gotten any comment one way or the other from Trump transition advisers in the wake of that meeting related to the cabinet position specifically. And of course, the big questions are, is that something Donald Trump wants and perhaps more importantly, is that a position Mitt Romney would want in a Trump administration?
No question about it. There's been several important meetings today, none were anywhere near as long as he sit down with Mitt Romney. A lot of respect shown by both Governor Mike Pence and President-elect Donald Trump in advance. I think a lot of people trying to read the tea leaves right now, Poppy.
HARLOW: And is there any sense that you got, Phil, from either side as to whether either man has offered an apology in the wake of the harsh campaign rhetoric that they both used against one another?
MATTINGLY: We asked both, both ignored those questions when they came out. I think the interesting element here is when you talked to people that are close to Romney, they made clear that what he's focused on now is trying to help the president-elect. Clearly, their disagreements haven't changed and I think we've talked about --
HARLOW: Right.
MATTINGLY: -- it, Poppy. When it comes to foreign policy, they diverge --
HARLOW: Yes.
MATTINGLY: -- in several very key areas, something that might stand in the way of potential secretary of state position. But when you talk to people about what Romney wanted out of this meeting, what Romney is considering about, what -- why this is important, it's because he wants to see whoever the president is, whether it's a democrat or republican, succeed going forward.
That's why he wanted to have this meeting. That's why he wanted to sit down, Poppy. HARLOW: Yes. But can they get past their personal issues and more importantly can they get on the same page on policy issues especially when it comes to Russia, which is certainly front and center right now. Phil, thank you for the reporting. Keep a close eye on that door behind you, my friend, OK?
(LAUGHTER)
MATTINGLY: All right.
HARLOW: Let's bring in my panel. Joining me, Lanhee Chen, CNN Political Commentator and Mitt Romney's former Public Policy Director. Also with us, former Congressman Jack Kingston of Georgia, also a former adviser to the Trump campaign. Lanhee, let me begin with you. Let's just listen to these two men, OK? During this election. Let's roll it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROMNEY: Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: Mitt was a disaster as a candidate.
ROMNEY: He's playing the members of the American public for suckers.
TRUMP: Romney let us all down. He was a very poor campaigner.
ROMNEY: He gets a free ride to The White House and all we get is a lousy hat.
TRUMP: Romney choked like a dog, he choked. He went --
ROMNEY: His promises are as worthless as a degree from Trump University.
TRUMP: I have a lot of friends. No, I have a lot of friends -- by the way, Mitt Romney is not one of them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: So first of all, if he gets the secretary of state gig, if it's offered, he definitely has to give Romney a hat along with it, right? Because --
(LAUGHTER)
LANHEE CHEN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER MITT ROMNEY PUBLIC POLICY DIRECTOR: It's a great hat.
HARLOW: Yes. Honestly, on the personal stuff, you know Mitt Romney, can they get past it and more importantly on the policy stuff, can they get on the same page?
CHEN: I think at this point, the election is over. Clearly, the campaign was hard fact. Governor Romney expressed his point of view, as did Donald Trump. Now the campaign is over, Mitt Romney has made clear he's interested in helping the president-elect govern effectively. And so this meeting I think was all about conveying Governor Romney's view in the world, he's thought veryworry deeply and clearly about this stuff for a long time.
[16:05:05] He wants to share information with the president-elect and I'm sure vice versa. So I do think the key now, and Governor Romney has made this abundantly clear, we want to help the president-elect govern effectively.
HARLOW: Yes, yes. Congressman, to you, on these policy issues, and let's just dive into Russia, Donald Trump has, you know, spoken very highly, praising Vladimir Putin, said he thinks he's a good leader. He said it wouldn't be better for the United States to be friends with, and have a good relationship with Russia than what we have now.
Mitt Romney in 2012, when he was running, called Russia the greatest geopolitical threat out there. Can the two men get on the same policy page?
JACK KINGSTON, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER TRUMP CAMPAIGN: I think they can, because number one, everybody serves as the pleasure of the president, even if you're a cabinet member. You got to implement the president's policies. But I don't believe Mitt Romney would sign on if he did not believe in the policies and did not say yes, this is the direction we're going in. One of the things that I do think is important when you look at Romney calling the shot correctly that earns him a lot of respect.
But at the same time, here we have John Kerry trying to work on a peace accord in Syria with Russia with Putin's representative. And so, you know, you do have to be aware of your enemy but at the same time you have to work with them. And -- but certainly --
HARLOW: But, you know, John McCain even -- John McCain this week even, Congressman, you know, came out with very, very stern warning to -- you know, he didn't use the president-elect's name, but it was clear of who he was talking to when he said, you know, trade carefully here when dealing with Russia, particularly as it pertains to Syria.
KINGSTON: But, you know what? I think they're all on the same page, maybe just a different spot because when you think about Kerry trying to work with Russia right now and Syria, and McCain saying it's a good thing to do it, but engage very, very carefully, I think you have to be very leery of Russia. And -- but at the same time, as president- elect, I think it's better for Trump to set the tone that he is rather than saying, "Enemy number one, Putin in Russia, I'm going to take them on."
I think he is saying right now olive branch, let's see if we can get together.
HARLOW: All right. Let's change topic here a little bit because Steve Bannon, who Donald Trump has tapped to be his chief strategist and senior counsel in The White House, really have his hear throughout, just gave an interview to the Hollywood reporter. Here's a quote from it. "Darkness is good. Dick Cheney. Darth Vader. Satan. That's power. It only helps us when they get it wrong.
When they're blind to who we are and what we're doing." Lanhee Chen, as a conservative, as a republican, I know you didn't vote for the president-elect, you voted Mitt Romney. But what is your reaction to that kind of rhetoric, that language from the man who will have Trump's ear for the next four years at least?
CHEN: Yes. I mean, look, I think that there is a certain element of politics here that translates over from the campaign to governing. Now, obviously, the way that was said probably is a little bit darker than certainly would be in my taste personally.
HARLOW: Probably? Darth Vader?
CHEN: My taste personally. Well, right. But look, I think the goal here for the Trump White House now is they're building an organization that will govern. But remember, also, building an organization that politically will try to entrench republicans in authority here for the next half of our lives.
HARLOW: Right.
CHEN: I think that's what he was trying to say.
HARLOW: He went on to say, you know, we're going --
CHEN: Right.
HARLOW: -- to really flip this economy around, we're going to govern republicans for the next 50 years in his interview with The Wall Street Journal.
CHEN: Yes.
HARLOW: Also, Congressman Kingston, Trump ran on this platform of "Make America Great Again." Here's how Massachusetts Senator (INAUDIBLE) Elizabeth Warren reacted to him picking so far all white men for his, you know, appointments thus far. She tweeted @MittRomney, "When you're meeting with @realDonaldTrump, maybe you could bring your binders full of women with you."
What do you believe that these appointments thus far tell the American public about the last time that Donald Trump thought America was great, right? He ran on make America great again. Now he's putting people around him to do that. What should we read from that?
KINGSTON: I think Elizabeth Warren is being Elizabeth Warren. And God bless, she is a very loyal opposition and I'm sure she will promise to be for the next eight years. But he's going to have a great cabinet and it's going to be diverse and it's going to look like America. And he's going to have advisers surrounding him that look like America and have a diversity obtained and --
HARLOW: But these don't -- OK. But these don't --
KINGSTON: But the topic -- HARLOW: Congressman, you must admit that these three --
KINGSTON: He --
HARLOW: -- don't (INAUDIBLE)
KINGSTON: They don't have to --
(CROSSTALK)
HARLOW: (INAUDIBLE) America.
KINGSTON: -- because he doesn't have to please Elizabeth Warren or the left right now. They lost the --
HARLOW: No. But you just said that his picks will look -- with all due respect, you just said --
KINGSTON: The --
HARLOW: -- the picks will look like America. And perhaps the next picks will be more diverse and there will be women in minority --
KINGSTON: The -- well --
HARLOW: -- but thus far --
KINGSTON: -- might (INAUDIBLE) but really --
HARLOW: Perhaps.
KINGSTON: -- Poppy, he doesn't have to please her. He -- his timeline is his timeline. Elizabeth Warren did everything she could to oppose him. She lost. So he doesn't have to worry about what she has to say. She's still in campaign mode. He is going on his own timeline. And remember a week ago, the story was, where are the cabinet picks he's behind? When in truth, most cabinet take six to seven weeks to put together.
[16:10:12] HARLOW: That's a great point. President Obama did not name one for, you know, for three weeks. So he's not alone in that respect.
KINGSTON: But with Michelle Rhee there today, a democrat, he's going to get -- he's going to have a diverse opinion and diverse racial differences and I think it's going to be good. The end product actually --
HARLOW: We --
KINGSTON: -- is going to be excellent.
HARLOW: -- will watch this, a lot more appointments that need to be made. Guys, thank you very much. Lanhee Chen and Congressman Jack Kingston. We appreciate for coming. A lot ahead this hour. Right now President Obama is in Lima, Peru, he is attending the annual APEC summit and what is foremost on the minds of many world leaders there is what is next under President-elect Donald Trump? Obviously he's addressing that.
That is all coming up live in the CNN Newsroom, live in Lima. Also Donald Trump's cabinet and senior staff taking shape. Who would voters like to see in the president's inner circle? We went out and asked them. And later, high security at Trump Tower. The unique challenge of keeping a president-elect safe right in the heart of New York City. You're live in the CNN Newsroom.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARLOW: President Obama this weekend in South America. He arrived in Lima, Peru last night to attend the annual APEC summit, that is the group of countries around the Asia Pacific Rim. Peru is one of just three Latin America countries that are in APEC. Our Athena Jones is traveling with the president. And Athena, 61 days left in office. How much of his focus on this trip is the transition, and what is he saying?
[16:15:00] ATHENA JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We know that The White House is very interested in making sure that there is a smooth transition to power for President-elect Donald Trump. You've heard the president say this over and over. But on this trip, both in your Europe and here, he spent a lot of time trying to reassure world leaders that the U.S. is going to remain engaged at this point to continue to honor alliances, chief among them NATO for instance in Europe.
Now that he's here in Peru at the APEC summit, he's -- has a chance to reassure the leaders of the Asia Pacific region that the U.S. is going to remain engaged. He just wrapped up a town hall with about a 1,000 young leaders from Latin America and the Caribbean. This is the kind of event he likes to do in countries all across the world.
He's done quite a few of them, answering questions from young people. He talked today about democracy. He said a democracy is more than just elections, it's also a free press, freedom of religion, making sure the rights of minorities are protect, not just the majority. And the democracy is the rule of law. But he also said democracy can be frustrating. Take a listen.
HARLOW: Hmm.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Democracy can be frustrating, because democracy means that you don't always get a 100 percent of what you want. Democracy means that sometimes you have to compromise. And it means that the outcomes of elections don't always turn out the way you would hope.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JONES: And certainly the outcome of this most recent election did not turn out the way President Obama had hoped. One more point he made during this town hall is that he believes the relationship between the U.S. and Latin America won't see major changes under a Trump presidency. He thinks that there could be tensions arising over the issue, issue of trade. But doesn't foresee a huge change in the approach to Latin America. We'll see if he's right, Poppy.
HARLOW: Right. And also he's been sort of assuring world leaders this past week that the U.S. committed to NATO, something that the president-elect certainly threw into question during the campaign. Athena, thank you for the reporting. Live from Lima. Up next, we are going to take you out of New York, out of Washington, D.C. into America.
We're going to take you into Alabama, a state that went for Donald Trump by nearly a two to one margin over Hillary Clinton. What do people there think about Trump's cabinet picks so far?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: As of now, it's been all white men named to the cabinet, is that OK with you?
NANCY BINION, ALABAMA VOTER: It is, yes.
TUCHMAN: But would you like to see a woman if she's qualified?
BINION: I would. Yes, I would.
TUCHMAN: But not necessarily if everyone's qualified they are all white mean, that's OK with you?
BINION: It is.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:21:17] HARLOW: This week, Donald Trump made some major picks for his cabinet and White House staff. There are concerns among some about some of their backgrounds and temperament. So what do people in the states that voted heavily for Donald Trump think about the advisers that he's selected so far. Our Gary Tuchman traveled to Alabama to gauge reaction there.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TUCHMAN: In tiny Heflin, Alabama, the cabinet nomination of Alabama's own Jeff Sessions is the talk of the town.
JEFF SESSIONS, FORMER UNITED STATES SENATOR: I was surprised but glorified. I'm just overjoyed with it. I think he's going to do us a great job.
TUCHMAN: Heflin, the county seat of Cleburne County is where we came to talk about Sessions and other Trump cabinet nominees. As of now it's been all white men named to be cabinet, is that OK with you?
BINION: It is, yes.
TUCHMAN: But would you like to see a woman if she's qualified?
BINION: I would. Yes, I would.
TUCHMAN: But not necessarily if everyone's qualified they are all white men, that's OK with you?
BINION: It is.
WANDA SMITH, ALABAMA VOTER: I'm not a feminist. So it doesn't matter with me one way or the other as long as they know how to do their job.
TUCHMAN: 88 percent of Cleburne County voters cast their ballots for Donald Trump. So they are loyal to him as well as Sessions. But we had questions. Jeff sessions in 1986 wanted to be a federal judge.
PATRICK GRIZZARD, ALABAMA VOTER: Yes.
TUCHMAN: He was rejected by a republican committee because of racially charged comments he made. He called the NAACP, the ACLU communist inspired, un-American. Do you think that should disqualify him?
GRIZZARD: No. Because 30 years ago that was something common for somebody to say.
TUCHMAN: If he said something hike that more recently, few years ago or last year, would you think that would be enough to disqualify him?
GRIZZARD: Yes.
BINION: 30 years ago, I went to an all-white school or maybe longer than 30 years. But when I was in high school I went to an all-white school (INAUDIBLE) all black school. I was all for that because I didn't know any better.
TUCHMAN: So if you did know any better back then?
BINION: Well, there's a chance he didn't.
TUCHMAN: If he made those comments today or a few years ago --
BINION: (INAUDIBLE) that would bother me. Yes, it would.
TUCHMAN: And what about the nominee for national security adviser, Lt. Gen. Michael Flynn?
MICHAEL FLYNN, RETIRED ARMY LIEUTENANT GENERAL: Lock her up. That's right.
TUCHMAN: Who was a fiery in controversial advocate for Trump on the campaign trail. He in the past has talked about Islam and he said Islam definitely hides behind being a religion. It's a political ideology did that trouble you?
AMANDA JOHNSON, ALABAMA VOTER: I don't think that's true. That might be his opinion, but I don't think it's true.
TUCHMAN: So does it bother you, should that disqualify him from being the national security adviser? He's acknowledged making those comments.
JOHNSON: Well, maybe he knows a heck of a lot more about it than I do.
TUCHMAN: And then there's the other nominee of the day Congressman Mike Pompeo for CIA chief. A few talk to know much about him but this woman feels the congressman may not have the proper experience to run the CIA. Does that trouble you?
CAROLYN LIMON, ALABAMA VOTER: A little yes, sir. If they don't have the experience, yes.
TUCHMAN: I mean, but Donald Trump picked him.
LIMON: Yes. Well, I might -- we can't agree with everything he does.
TUCHMAN: But in this small town there seems to be a general agreement that the presidential transition is going just fine. Do you think there are some people in this country, the political establishment, the news media who just don't get?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They never had it. I'm serious.
TUCHMAN: Gary Tuchman, CNN, Heflin, Alabama.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARLOW: Gary, thank you for that reporting. Coming up next, a new search of immigrants racing to come into the United States before Donald Trump becomes the next president. I will speak with my next guest, Bill Richardson, a former Governor of New Mexico. About all of that in immigration reform overall what needs to happen? He's with us next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:27:52] HARLOW: Donald Trump will not take office for another two months, but something remarkable is already happening along the U.S.- Mexico border. It seems all of his talk about building a wall on the campaign trail is fuelling a surge of new arrivals in places like South Texas. Our Polo Sandoval traveled to the state Rio Grande Valley and that region where some immigrants who just entered the country say they were racing against time.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's the second South Texas border surge and there are hardly any empty seats on the unmark buses that pull into McAllen central station. Thousands of undocumented Central American families fleeing crime and poverty are again saturating America's immigration system. They turned themselves in to authorities at the border are process then released wearing an ankle monitor and to promise of returning for a court date. What is it that brings you to the united states? [ SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE ]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: [SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
SANDOVAL: Well, he says that the level of crime in this country is what brings him and his son Carlos here.
CARLOS CARDONA, UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANT: [SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
SANDOVAL: Before heading north, Carlos Cardona and his four-year old son made a brief stop at a shelter that open its doors during the immigration surge of 2014. It's run by Sister Norma Pimentel.
SISTER NORMA PIMENTEL, HUMANITARIAN RESPITE CENTER: The violence instead of -- the admission is escalated. And so we have families that fear for their lives, especially their kids.
SANDOVAL: Volunteers have been walking these families from the bus station to the shelter and back for already two years now. But what's new are the numbers that we are seeing lately. And if you hear from some of the officials here in South Texas they will also tell you that there is another reason why so many people are rushing to the U.S.
JIM DARLING, MAYOR, CITY OF MCALLEN: They all know about President Trump, they know about a wall. When you talk to them, they know that.
SANDOVAL: Mayor Jim Darling suspects it's no longer just violence and poverty in Central America fuelling this new wave.
DARLING: If you talk about building a fence and we're not going to allow people in. I mean, you better get over here now before January and the swearing in ceremony.
SANDOVAL: Back at the shelter, these new arrivals are weighing in. So who comes here fearing that Donald Trump planned to build a massive border wall? [SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE]. Wow.
[16:30:00]
(Voice-over): Among the crowds we found 17-year-old Diriam Fuentes and her father Neri.
(On camera): Now that you're here in the U.S. Are you afraid of the idea of mass deportations?
(Voice-over): Fuentes tells me she fears being returned to her native Honduras. On the banks of the Rio Grande more migrants emerged out of the darkness and turn themselves into authorities. It's a seemingly endless flow of families arriving night and day.
SISTER NORMA PIMENTEL, HUMANITARIAN RESPITE CENTER: There is a big fear in the community about what's going to happen. But ultimately, what we have to respond is to the fact that they're human beings.
SANDOVAL: Carlos Cardona and his son are starting the U.S. stretch of his journey. Like so many others who are now in their shoes they face an uncertain future. (END VIDEOTAPE)
POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Polo Sandoval joins me now live.
That is a fascinating story. Fascinating reporting, Polo. Thank you for it. It seems almost counter-intuitive that people who fear deportation under Donald Trump would rush to come here. And yet they're undeterred. Why is that?
SANDOVAL: Yes, and that is a key question here, Poppy. In fact I posed it to some of these families fresh after they crossed that U.S.- Mexico border and the answer to them was quite simple, the fear over the gangs and the violence in Central America is so much greater than the fear of being deported while here in the United States. As a result, they're taking their chances. So again, that's the key here, that the violence, the poverty, those are still the main driving factors. But now, especially after this presidential election, it seems that there could be perhaps a third reason why they want to get on U.S. soil sooner rather than later.
HARLOW: Polo, thank you very much for the reporting. I appreciate it.
And let's stroll down a little bit more on immigration reform with Governor Bill Richardson. He's held numerous positions at the highest levels of government, of course the former governor of New Mexico. He has seen this issue of illegal immigration. He previously called Donald Trump's immigration positions, quote, "ludicrous, impractical and racist." What does he think now? He is with me.
Thank you for joining us, Governor.
BILL RICHARDSON (D), FORMER NEW MEXICO GOVERNOR: Thank you, Poppy. Nice to be with you.
HARLOW: Donald Trump is standing by his pledge to build this border wall. He did concede a bit that it could be a fence in some places. But in terms of deportation, he and the House Speaker Paul Ryan have really sort of walked that back. They've said that this deportation force not a priority right now.
For you, someone who has dealt with this firsthand as a governor of a border state, what is the most useful thing you think President-elect Trump could do to curve illegal immigration?
RICHARDSON: Well, first of all, I do think that we need to enforce our laws and just because Trump is coming in doesn't mean you open the border. So I'm for securing the border, more technology, more Border Patrol, but at the same time, you have to be realistic. And I think you need to establish a path to legalization to the 11 million that are here in the United States today, that are working, that are contributing.
Yes, turn back the criminals, although I think President-elect Trump misstated the number of criminals. He said there were close to two million, and it's closer to 200,000. I'm for deporting those. But I think building a wall --
HARLOW: Well, he was actually called the deporter-in-chief by La Raza. I mean, President Obama has actually deported so many more people than his predecessor.
RICHARDSON: That's right. And look, I think you deport those that are criminals, that have criminal backgrounds that threaten the United States. I think we need to tighten our visa requirements so that we don't get incidents like we did in San Bernardino, people that are hostile to America. But at the same time, I think building a wall, finding ways to keep Muslims out, having a repressive policy is not going to be a solution. Constructive immigration reform is good for the budget, it's good for business. It creates jobs. It's good on the border. And look, I was a border governor.
HARLOW: Right.
RICHARDSON: Illegal immigration on the border with Mexico has decreased.
HARLOW: But you've also said -- and look, you have -- yes, you are a Democrat, but you have said we need more border security, not necessarily a wall. But you've also put the blame squarely on both Democrats and on Republicans. Where has been the biggest impasse? Where has the biggest failure been do you believe on both sides?
RICHARDSON: Well, the failure has been in the Congress. The fact that they have not passed a comprehensive immigration reform bill. I was governor when George W. Bush proposed a good bill that said we're going to secure the border but we're going to have a path to legalization, we're going to deal with the 11 million.
[16:35:01] We're going to find ways that they can be part of American society and pay back taxes, get rid of the criminal element, embrace American values, have jobs, have families that are -- and safety for the American people. I'm for that. But I think Democrats, if anything, should have put immigration reform a higher priority the first two years of President Obama's administration.
(CROSSTALK)
HARLOW: He would have done that instead of Obamacare.
RICHARDSON: He put healthcare reform first. That's fine.
HARLOW: You brought up Muslims --
RICHARDSON: Well, my point is that both parties need to focus on immigration reform. I'm not just blaming the Republicans. I'm saying it's a collective problem in American policy, but Donald Trump's solution, the ones at least he's talked about in the campaign, building a wall, deporting. How are you going to deport 11 million people? You're going to round them up?
HARLOW: Well, and as I said, the House speaker --
RICHARDSON: In a coral and drove them out?
HARLOW: The House speaker and Donald Trump now are saying that that is really not their priority right now. But I want to get to this issue of Muslims entering the United States because President-elect Donald Trump, as you know during the campaign, at one point called for an all-out ban on them. He has walked that back slightly but he still promises what he calls extreme vetting for people from what he deems terror prone areas.
Let's take a listen to some of the things he said during the campaign about something that FDR did during World War II that he eventually apologized for.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT-ELECT: What I'm doing is no different than what FDR -- FDR's solution for Germans, Italians, Japanese, you know, many years ago --
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABS NEWS: So you're for internment camps? You're praising FDR there. I take it you're praising the setting up of internment camps for Japanese during World War II?
TRUMP: No, I'm not. No, I'm not. You look at Franklin Roosevelt, a respected president, what he was doing with Germans, Italians and Japanese, because he had to do it. Because look, we are at war with radical Islam.
JOE SCARBOROUGH, MSNBC ANCHOR: You certainly aren't proposing internment camps?
TRUMP: No, I'm not at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: So he said I'm not proposing internment camps, but in the same breath FDR did what he had to do. He has changed his tone a little bit but, Governor, what do you think the stance from his administration will be ultimately when they have to deal with how are they going to handle this issue?
RICHARDSON: Well, he's now president, and so a lot of that campaign rhetoric I think he has the potential to put it aside and moderate it, that's what I hope happens. I'm not encouraged by his National Security adviser espousing almost anti-Muslim views across the board. That's not a good start. But again, we have to see how he's going to govern.
I believe what we need to do is we can't punish and we can't go after Arab countries that help us to combat terrorism from radical Muslims. And that's I think what's happening. So I think if he just increases the visa vetting, makes security more a -- from countries where there have been terrorism like Sudan, I think those are sensible reforms. But to have a ban on Muslims, that's totally unrealistic and counterproductive because we need national unity, we need international support from Muslim countries to curb the terrorists coming into America and harming the American people.
HARLOW: Let me ask you about this, Kansas secretary of state, Chris Kobach is -- you know what? Stand by. Governor, stay with me. I've got a little bit of breaking news. Stand by if you would. Let me go to Phil Mattingly, he's in Bedminster, New Jersey, with some breaking news.
Phil, what are you hearing?
PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Poppy, I think one of the more interesting meetings, obviously we've all been focused on the Mitt Romney meeting today but what we just saw was retired marine general James Mattis walk out of a rather long meeting with President- elect Donald Trump. And I'm told from Trump's transition sources that there's a good reason that that meeting was long.
Donald Trump is very intrigued about the idea of General Mattis ending up in his cabinet, ending up in his administration. Now we've been talking a lot about various candidates, what positions they may end up, and what I'm told right now is a leading candidate to be Defense secretary is James Mattis. His name has been kind of floating about over the last couple of weeks. But I'm told definitively now from a Trump transition source that the president-elect is very intrigued about the possibility of James Mattis ending up in his cabinet.
And just for some background, Poppy, James Mattis was very well-known during his time in the military as a general in the Marines, very well-known for his service in Iraq and is very well-known kind of bipartisan. Both the Obama administration and Republicans on Capitol Hill think very highly of him. And this is somebody I think we need to keep a very close eye on, I'm told, because there is a very good chance that at some point he ends up if not in a Trump administration, certainly a finalist to be in that position -- Poppy.
HARLOW: You know, and as I'm looking here, obviously you mentioned the service in Iraq, also in Afghanistan, who led the task force in southern Afghanistan back in 2001. Were you able -- Phil, I'm interested, were you able to hear the comments that Donald Trump made about him as they were departing together just a few moments ago?
[16:40:09] MATTINGLY: Yes, we were able -- we asked Donald Trump if he had something to say, if he wanted specifically General Mattis to be in his cabinet. And while he wouldn't say anything about that, he'd said over and of again how impressed he was with the general's resume and how impressed he was with the general as a man.
This was coming after this meeting, a meeting that I was told was very important as we go through this process and a meeting that was, as I noted, longer than just about any other meeting today except for 2012 nominee Mitt Romney.
HARLOW: Yes.
MATTINGLY: So Donald Trump effusively praising General Mattis as they walked out of that meeting, a crucial meeting as he considers the possibility of perhaps making General Mattis his first secretary of Defense.
HARLOW: On that point, though, very quickly, Phil, his team, Trump's team said we may have a National Security role announcement today. Would this be it, secretary of Defense?
MATTINGLY: No, I'm told -- no.
HARLOW: OK.
MATTINGLY: I'm told this wouldn't be it. There's still some time in the process to be go. If there is an announcement made and we're being kind of walked back from that a little bit now.
HARLOW: OK.
MATTINGLY: But it would be in the national security sector, but it would be a lower level position than Cabinet secretary -- Poppy.
HARLOW: All right. Great reporting, Phil Mattingly. Live for us in Bedminster. Thank you so much.
And Governor Richardson, my thanks to him for his patience, letting me jump in there. We're going to take a quick break. Much more with Governor Richardson right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARLOW: You're looking at Bedminster, New Jersey. Why do you care about what's happening there?
[16:45:02] It is because the president-elect, Donald Trump, is holding what we're told are nonstop meetings this weekend with potential picks for his cabinet and White House staff. He's already had a number of them today, including very high profile meetings, like an hour and 20 minute meeting with Mitt Romney, formerly a foe, now apparently the two men are getting along. They departed with a handshake.
Much more on that straight ahead. Meantime, Donald Trump's policies will be far reaching in some cases. Of course they will impact the entire planet. His position on climate change is being closely watched by other countries around the world since he's repeatedly has denied that climate change is manmade.
Trump tweeted in 2012 the global warming was created by and for the Chinese to make U.S. manufacturing not competitive. This week, a Chinese official rejected that notion telling a world climate conference in Morocco that it was actually the United States that first spearheaded climate talks in the 1980s. And of course there's this moment from the first presidential debate back in September.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON (D), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Donald thinks that climate change is a hoax perpetrated by the Chinese. I think it's real.
TRUMP: I did not --
CLINTON: Science is true.
TRUMP: I do not say that.
CLINTON: And I think it's important that we --
TRUMP: I do not say that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: Bill Richardson is with me once again. He served as energy secretary under President Bill Clinton.
So, sir, take your governor hat off and put your energy secretary hat back on and let's talk about what this could mean, because the United States and China, as you know, the biggest emitters of greenhouse gases, finally came to an agreement in the Paris climate agreement, a Herculean effort to get so many countries committed. In May, when he was giving a speech on energy in North Dakota, Donald Trump said, quote, "We're going to cancel the Paris agreement. We're going to stop all payments of U.S. tax dollars to U.N. global warming programs."
Do you believe he will do that as president and what would the impact be?
RICHARDSON: Well, I hope he doesn't do it. But we don't know what he's going to do. I don't think he would do it because it would be an unmitigated disaster for American foreign policy and foreign policy interests across the board. 175 countries signed the Paris climate accords. The two biggest were the United States and China who committed to reducing greenhouse gas emissions as the biggest emitters. But it also included the European Union. It included countries like Brazil, India, the big industrialized powers around the world.
So it would be an unmitigated disaster if we pulled out. He cannot be President-elect Trump, a climate denier. And you can't say it's China that is perpetrating the hoax, which he also said. Now, you know, I'm one of those that am willing to -- all right, he said that during the campaign.
HARLOW: Right.
RICHARDSON: I want to see -- I want to see what he's going to do as president. And we don't know. I think one of his biggest assets, Poppy, is we don't know what he's going to do. And that's a strange way to describe the asset of a president-elect.
HARLOW: Why is that -- yes, why is that an asset?
RICHARDSON: But I'm hoping -- well, because he's made so many, I think, negative statements on foreign policy that concern me, but it seems he's walked back one issue, which President Obama, when they met at the White House, possibly convinced him that NATO was probably the strongest partnership that America has in world affairs. And I don't hear Trump saying that we're going to pull out of NATO, we're going to reduce our commitment to NATO. So maybe he is moderating. I just don't know. Nobody knows.
HARLOW: You were energy secretary. So what would the real-life consequences be if the U.S. does pull out of this Paris climate agreement? Because I will tell you that I spoke with a lot of, you know, voters in -- particularly in Ohio and Pennsylvania who were very reliant on the coal industry for a really good living, that they could support their family on, and they have since lost those jobs and they have felt the impact of some of these regulations of the Obama administration, particularly on coal.
So for them, it would be a net positive to their bottom line, at least in the short term. Your response to that on the other side?
RICHARDSON: Well, my response is that there's scientific credible evidence across the board that greenhouse gas emissions are doing great damage to the earth. And I don't think it's related, Poppy, to the issue of jobs. I think a lot of those constituents in Ohio and Pennsylvania, they're concerned about trade initiatives that I think jobs have been lost because of technology, not because of trade agreements or climate change. But the consequences are, if we don't abide by this Paris agreement, countries that think we are polluting the world as the main emitter, like Mexico, like other countries, may put sanctions on us. Sanctions, economic sanctions.
[16:50:00] Now you know, we can survive that. I'm not being somebody that's cataclysmic.
HARLOW: Right.
RICHARDSON: But it makes no sense to ensure that we don't observe a climate agreement with so many countries, 175 countries under U.N. auspices where we took the lead and all of a sudden say we're not abiding. It's going to be a chaotic international situation and it's going to harm the earth. It's going to harm air pollution, manmade pollution has caused greenhouse gas emissions.
HARLOW: But I mean --
RICHARDSON: That's established by science, not by politicians.
HARLOW: Yes, I mean, it is widely accepted by all of the leading scientists indeed. However, Donald Trump has made these promises on the campaign trail to bring back these coal jobs, to bring back things that if you do you're not going to be in line with what the promises that were made in the Paris accord. So that's going to be a really difficult point for him. He's going to disappoint people on either side, whoever path he chooses.
But let me ask you about this. He has tapped a leading climate denier, Myron Ebol, to head the EPA's transition team. This is someone who has called President Obama's clean power plan illegal. He has said that climate change is phony and bogus. He's also said that it is a pretext for expanding government. So he's going to be the man, this is him, he's going to be the man in
charge of staffing the EPA and deciding who leads the Environmental Protection Agency next. What do you expect the net result to be?
RICHARDSON: Well, I think it would be disastrous if any of those appointments are made. The fact is that, all right, transition team, it's important. But I worry about who he actually appoints to head the EPA. Who are the undersecretaries, who are the district directors in the various states for New Mexico would be out of the Texas region. That's what I'm concerned about.
You know, politicians, when they run for president, they had to satisfy political interests, the people that brought them to the dance as they say. OK. So you put some of these people in the transition team. It is worrisome, especially if they've taken those positions. But I'm of the view that Donald Trump needs to unify the country. He did not win a mandate. Hillary Clinton maybe is ahead close to two million votes in the popular vote. It was a close election. So, you know, he's got to unify the country.
My concern is so far the appointments are saying OK, I'm paying you off, far right. I'm paying you off to pay off my campaign rhetoric. So I want to see some more inclusivity in the cabinet. I like the fact that he met with Romney. I know Romney. He's a reasonable guy. I don't know if he's the guy for secretary of state. But I think what you want to do -- what you want to see is give them a chance to breathe. It's only the second week.
HARLOW: All right.
RICHARDSON: Let's see who he really appoints in these key positions.
HARLOW: Governor Bill Richardson, we're out of time. But thank you so much for joining me on these important issues. We appreciate it.
Coming up, Trump Tower is about to become, well, certainly it's got a lot more police around it. Take a look at the intense security that is going on all around Trump Tower in the middle of Manhattan. We're going to dive into what it means for the millions of people who live in this city.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:57:08] HARLOW: You're looking at live pictures out of Bedminster, New Jersey, tonight. Donald Trump is holding non-stop meetings we're told with potential cabinet and White House staff picks at his golf course there. We are hearing another appointment could come as soon as today. We are of course standing by.
Meantime, it is an unprecedented security challenge, guarding Donald Trump's home. Trump Tower smack in the middle of Manhattan's busy 5th Avenue. That stretch already a nightmare for New Yorkers in terms of traffic. Now midtown Manhattan is home base for the president-elect until inauguration in January. A White House north, if you will, as the leader of the free -- the leader of the free world plans his presidency. Deb Feyerick takes us inside.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TRUMP: I realize this is a whole different life for me now.
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For a man used to going where he wants when he wants, the president-elect's impromptu visit to a Manhattan restaurant drew noticeable attention, as his motorcade left his Manhattan residence.
Trump Tower is gleaming 58-story luxury high rise in the heart of midtown, but for Secret Service agents, it's also a logistical and tactical nightmare. Among the top three concerns?
BILL GAGE, FORMER SECRET SERVICE AGENT: Check list is going to be the height. The second's probably all of the glass. And then there's the streets around it, the threat from a vehicle-born explosive device.
FEYERICK: There's also the threat from the air. The FAA has established a temporary no fly zone four times the height of Trump Tower and expanding two nautical miles along one of the busiest flight quarters on the East Coast. The outside of the building is now tightly guarded to prevent what happened this summer when a climber, using giant suction cups, scaled the all-glass exterior.
And everything inside Trump Tower will have to be secured, from the air vents to the elevators, even floors surrounding both the President-elect's penthouse apartment and his office on the 26th floor.
GAGE: The standard general rule when you're doing a security advance is one floor below and one floor above, but that -- it doesn't always work.
FEYERICK: Screening now a way of life with anyone going in or out of the building. Fifty-eight stories of residence and commercial tenants, all screened including packages, mail, and deliveries.
MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO, NEW YORK CITY: To the extent you can avoid the immediate area around Trump Tower, that'll make your own life easier and everyone else's life easier.
FEYERICK: The building will be protected by heavily armed NYPD officers and the Secret Service 24 hours a day. Counter surveillance and assault teams will be in place whenever the president-elect is inside and there'll be a team in charge of securing and maintaining an area for top secret conversations.
DAVID BEACH, SPECIAL AGENT-IN-CHARGE, NEW YORK FIELD OFFICE: We have a long standing partnership and a very successful record here in New York City in protecting venues and people, so we're very comfortable with our plan.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARLOW: Deb Feyerick, reporting. Deb, thank you so much for that.
Top of the hour at 5:00 p.m. Eastern. You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Poppy Harlow in New York and we begin with this.
Donald Trump meeting behind closed-doors today with the people who could fill his cabinet and other top level positions at the White House.
