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Trump Meets with Cabinet Candidates; Trump Meets Rivals, Loyalists, Democrats for Posts; GOP Oversight Over Trump Business Ties; Mattis Leading Candidate for Defense Chief; Pence Won't Rule Out Torture; McCain Warns over Reviving Waterboarding; Four Officers Shot in Four Cities over 24 Hours. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired November 21, 2016 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00] BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: Starts right now.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I'm Pamela Brown, in for Brooke Baldwin on this Monday.

As President-elect Trump builds his team, while he shows he's willing to knock down barriers with some former pros, after visiting this weekend with arch critic Mitt Romney, a contender for secretary of state, there's now word that Trump is considering a Democrat for another high-level spot. Hawaii Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard, a major in the Army National Guard, she is in the running, a source says, for positions in the Defense or State Departments at the United - or State Departments or at the United Nations. Now, Gabbard is one of a match of meetings Trump is holding today as he looks toward his first day in office, now exactly 60 days away.

So let's get to the ground for the very latest. CNN's Jason Carroll is right outside Trump Tower.

So, Jason, who have you seen?

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, let's talk about what Kellyanne Conway called the long short list of candidates who Trump is going to be seeing here today. One of the names on that list who showed up here a little - a little while ago is former Massachusetts Senator Scott Brown, being considered for secretary of Veterans Affairs. As you know, Pamela, Donald Trump spoke at length throughout the campaign about the need to improve conditions for Veterans here within the Veterans Administration, better medical treatment. These are issues that also are very important to Brown as well. And as he left the meeting, Pamela, he gave some insight into how that meeting went between the two men.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCOTT BROWN (R), FORMER SENATOR FROM MASSACHUSETTS: We obviously spoke about my passion and his passion, which are veterans and veterans' issues. And, you know, obviously, it's, I think, the toughest job in the cabinet is to lead the VA because it has - while it has so many angels working there, it has so many great problems as well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARROLL: Pamela, it also should be noted that Brown was one of the first senators to come out and support Donald Trump. He's been loyal to Trump and the Trump campaign throughout this election process.

Also should be noted that, you know, Brown was asked when some sort of an announcement might be made and, you know, everyone's been wondering about this. He's met with so many people, either here at Trump Tower or over the weekend at his property in New Jersey, and Brown said that he expects some sort of an announcement to come, at least with his position, after Thanksgiving.

Pamela.

BROWN: All right. So the suspense continues. Jason Carroll, thank you so much for that.

And Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard is the second high profile Democrat to meet with Trump. Michelle Rhee, who once led public schools in Washington, D.C., visited Trump over the weekend for the education secretary job. And if Trump were to select a Democrat, he'd break a promise that he made just last month, saying Democrats would not serve in his cabinet.

Let's talk about this and much more with CNN political director David Chalian, CNN political commentator Jackie Kucinich, who is Washington bureau chief for "The Daily Beast," and CNN's Drew Griffin with our investigations unit.

So, David, first to you. How serious is Trump about these picks, do you think, with Tulsi Gabbard, Michelle Rhee, especially when you consider what he said just last month? Is this an about-face?

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Well, it's unclear how serious he is because this is a pure speculation game until we actually see an announcement come out. You also have to ask how serious these Democrats may be considering joining - accepting an invitation if they get one to join a Trump administration. Right now it serves both sides to be seen sort of parading in and out. it serves Trump to show that he's reaching out and it serves these folks to have their names out there as potential picks. So far we can only sort of judge what he has named. That is the concrete stuff and that's what we're waiting to see sort of the next pieces to come from that, Pam.

BROWN: And so far to his cabinet he's named white men, Jackie, and he's been hit over the lack of diversity in some of his cabinet picks. Is this an attempt, do you think, to quell some of that criticism perhaps?

JACKIE KUCINICH, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: You know, it's hard to know at this point because Kellyanne Conway made the point this morning, some of these people are job interviews and, you know, some of these people are just people who are speaking to Donald Trump.

Now, Tulsi Gabbard just recently issued a statement saying that she was there to talk about Syria and her belief that there should not be an intervention in Syria and regime overthrow. So, you know, at this point, it doesn't - she didn't indicate that there was any sort of job offer or job interview. So we're just going to have to sort of, you know, follow this as he announces it, which is hard, because we all love the speculation game.

BROWN: We do. And in a sense, David, he may be trying to build suspense here in typical Trump fashion. He's been interviewing or talking with Mitt Romney, one of his big foes during the campaign, for the job of secretary of state. Even some Democrats are applauding this. But they're skeptical. Democratic Congressman Adam Schiff talked to CNN and he says he thinks this is just for show and a nod to make it look like he's bringing people together. What's your take on that, on that meeting and discussion for Mitt Romney to be secretary of state?

[14:05:08] CHALIAN: Well, of course, Adam Schiff doesn't have real insight into Donald Trump's thinking about what is for show or what's not.

BROWN: Right.

CHALIAN: Obviously, you saw the meeting took place on Saturday. And then Mike Pence was out talking about it on Sunday, still using words like "active consideration." There's been no knockdown from the Romney world that the meeting was a disaster and there's no way he would join the administration. We have no tea leaves like that to read. So, clearly, there was a meeting and the VP-elect is saying that there is active consideration of Mitt Romney.

I think this would be a truly stunning development if, indeed Donald Trump can get Mitt Romney to serve as his secretary of state. If that's what he wants to offer, and if Mitt Romney accepts, to take one of his most strident, ardent critics from the establishment wing of the party, the exact wing he ran against to win the nomination and the presidency and put him at center stage in his cabinet would be a really big development for Donald Trump.

BROWN: It would. And you look at the rhetoric during the campaign with Romney coming out and calling Trump a con man and just the exchange of words. And also, when you look at the policy differences here, Jackie, Trump and Romney could not be more different on foreign policy. Trump wants a relationship with Putin, while Romney in his run called Russia the U.S. most - the U .S.' most geopolitical foe. So how could the two sort of bridge that gap?

KUCINICH: It's a really good question and it would - but it would signal that, you know, Donald Trump was willing to entertain other trains of thought on these issues. We - mostly the people who have been - who have been announced at this point, and there have only been a few of them, are people who are Donald Trump loyalists, are people who are with him the entire time. And it should be noted, not only did Romney speak out against Donald Trump, he did it early and often and brutally. So this would also signal that he would be willing to put that aside, which would be another step that we haven't seen as much from Donald Trump at this point. BROWN: And, Drew, I promise I haven't forgotten about you. I want to

bring you in to talk about the settlement that Donald Trump paid out, $25 million in his Trump University fraud lawsuit. And it raises the question, where is the promise from Republicans of oversight on this, like they had promised for Hillary Clinton over her e-mail use, the Clinton Foundation, et cetera?

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think what you're asking is, does Congress really want to get involved with this either party, Pamela. This was a private matter, a private business that was being sued in civil courts, two cases out in California, one by the attorney general in New York. So I don't see where Congress would have any standing in this issue oversight over Trump University.

This case has been going on for many, many years. It's why we have civil courts. It's why we have attorneys general. And it's why, if there was federal allegation that a federal law was broken, we would have the Department of Justice. But I don't see where Congress would step in and try to investigate what in effect was a private business, doing private business in the United States and have nothing to do with any government business. So I don't know that it's the same kind of apples to apples thing.

BROWN: And, David, what is the political fallout, do you think, of Trump's conflicts of interest, potential conflicts of interest?

CHALIAN: I think this is going to be a storyline that's going to be with us for the duration of the Trump presidency. I think that right now we don't have clear guidelines from Trump other than he's going to hand his business over to his children, his adult children. But then we saw that Ivanka Trump was in the meeting with the prime minister of Japan, Prime Minister Abe, last week. So the lines are not clear. What does it mean to hand your business over to your adult children that you're still going to have contact with and who are going to advise you? I think that there are going to have to be clear guidelines at some point that the Trump transition or administration put out to give the American people assurance that nothing in his businesses is going to seep its way into his presidency.

BROWN: All right, thank you so much, David, Jackie, Drew. Do appreciate the discussion.

And up next on this Monday, his nickname is "mad dog" and he's known for his salty language. Why Democrats and Republicans are both praising Trump's potential defense secretary.

Plus, the culture wars. Is Trump's feud with the "Hamilton" cast just a political strategy? We'll discuss the Broadway beefs.

And, breaking news, four officers in three states over 24 hours apparently targeted. Now a manhunt underway for the person who gunned down an officer during an ambush.

We'll be back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:13:31] BROWN: Well a man nicknamed "mad dog" could soon be U.S. secretary of defense. Retired Marine Corps General James Mattis, now the frontrunner to oversee the world's biggest military with Donald Trump calling him the real deal and a man known for telling it like it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. JAMES MATTIS (RETIRED), CANDIDATE FOR TRUMP DEFENSE SECRETARY: If the president orders us into action, I have what it takes to make it the enemy's longest day and their worst day.

Actually, it's quite fun to fight them, you know. It's a hell of a hoot. It's fun to shoot some people. I'll be right up front. Yes, I like brawling.

I've always kind of spoken my own mind. In fact, I've done it enough that it's a privilege to be invited here because it's a privilege to be invited in front of any polite company anymore after some of the things I've said.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: And joining me now to discuss, James Woolsey, former CIA director under President Bill Clinton, and adviser to President-elect Donald Trump. Also Colonel Peter Mansoor, CNN national security intelligence and terrorism analyst and a retired U.S. Army colonel.

Colonel, first to you. Before we get your thoughts, just if you would, explain to us this congressional waiver Mattis would need and why it would be historic.

COL. PETER MANSOOR (RET.), FORMER AIDE TO GEN. DAVID PETRAEUS: So only one other person in the history of the United States has received a waiver to move from the retired ranks of general officers to become secretary of defense. That was General George C. Marshall back during the Korean War. It's not unprecedented, but it is very, very rare.

[14:15:00] However, I think it's very, very possible that General Mattis, given the quality of this individual and his - the bipartisan support behind him, could receive such a waiver. But it's meant to keep general officers from just having a revolving door from going out of uniform and then right into commanding as a civilian the same formations they just left.

BROWN: And as you point out, he does have bipartisan support. Democrats have come out in favor for him. Obviously people like Donald Trump favor him as well, it seems. We don't know exactly if he's going to get a position in the cabinet. But, James, to, what can you tell us about him in terms of his leadership and in terms of his appetite for war. Would he want to send in more troops? What can you - what can we learn from him?

JAMES WOOLSEY, FORMER CIA DIRECTOR FOR PRESIDENT BILL CLINTON: Well, first of all, I think he's - has an extraordinary reputation among military peoples, well as among civilians who have worked with him or know him for ability and wry sense of humor and extraordinary record as a soldier, as a Marine. He's a - I know him mainly through e-mails. We share an interest in energy's impact on national security. And he's a great e-mail partner. He - he's smart. He's - like I say, he's wryly humorous. He asks really good questions. He comes up with fascinating answers. And I think this is an exception. We shouldn't give a lot of these waivers. But we have an odd situation here for American politics given the history of the election and the - where the political parties stand now and so on and I think it would be good to - for us all to pull together for defense secretary behind someone with Jim Mattis' ability and reputation.

BROWN: I want to switch gears here and talk torture. Here's John McCain, himself a victim of torture, with a very different take than the country's soon-to-be vice president, Mike Pence. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: I don't give a damn what the president of the United States wants to do or anybody else wants to do. We will not waterboard. We will not torture. My God, what does it say about America if we're going to inflict torture on people?

MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT-ELECT: Well, I have great respect for Senator McCain. And what I can tell you is that going forward, as he outlined in that famous speech in Ohio, that a President Donald Trump is going to focus on confronting and defeating radical Islamic terrorism as a threat to this country. And we're going to have a president again who will never say what we'll never do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: All right, so it's against the law, proven not to be effective. James, why is the Trump leadership still harping on this?

WOOLSEY: Well, I think there's two things going on here. One is, i completely agree with Vice President-elect Pence that we shouldn't be telling everybody what we're doing. But John McCain is a real expert on torture. He was tortured for many months. And he knows what it takes to withstand it and to stand up to it. And I think that he's somebody we should listen to on this issue.

My own preference would be that we not use waterboarding except in the most extreme case. Let's say there's a nuclear weapon in downtown New York and there's one prisoner we have, a guerrilla, who knows where it is and we think he might talk through waterboarding. Circumstances like that, it's awfully hard to say, I think, under no circumstances would we waterboard. Waterboarding is odd as what is called a torture device because our special force, the Navy SEALs and so forth, are waterboarded as part of their training and journalists were being waterboarded not long ago so they could write about it. And we don't pull out the fingernails of Navy SEALs as part of training.

So I think there could be a case made that we would waterboard only in the most exceptional circumstances and withhold public commentary on it otherwise. But it's a tough problem. And I think it's one in which we should listen to John McCain, as well as others.

BROWN: So, colonel, what's your take, because we - as we heard from James, he believes that you should use waterboarding in very rare cases. But then you have examples where Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was tortured and then he told lies during that and recanted those lies later on. So how effective would that be? What's your response to that?

[14:19:54] MANSOOR: Yes, with all due respect, I think waterboarding is torture and we should not torture under any circumstances, even a ticking time bomb scenario, as was just laid out. The fact is, is torture is morally reprehensible, it reduces our international standing, it degrades the torture, as well as the tortured, and it simply doesn't work. So, there's no reason we need to go back to it, nor should we.

BROWN: All right, colonel, James, differing opinions, very respectfully though. Thank you very much. Do appreciate you both coming on. Thank you.

And up next on this Monday right here in NEWSROOM, four police officers have been shot in four cities over 24 hours. One victim was sitting in his police car outside police headquarters when he was killed. Now a manhunt is underway.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:25:07] BROWN: Welcome back.

Police in San Antonio are on the hunt for a cop killer. They say the suspect walked into police headquarters, asked the desk clerk a question and then left. Just hours later, gunned down, a 20-year veteran officer, 50-year-old Detective Benjamin Marconi lost his life. He is the 58th officer killed in the line of duty this year. Marconi was one of four officers shot in separate incidents in four cities over a 24-hour period. The others were wounded in what appear to be targeted attacks in St. Louis, in Gladstone, Missouri, as well as Sanibel, Florida.

Let's bring in CNN law enforcement analyst Harry Houck. But first, CNN national correspondent Polo Sandoval is in San Antonio.

So, Polo, what is the police chief saying about the shooting there?

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, most importantly, Pam, he's saying that none of these incidents have any links together. At least none of them have any ties to what took place here in downtown San Antonio yesterday afternoon. But what's important now is that they have who they believe is their suspect on camera. And as you m mentioned a little while ago, in a somewhat bizarre developments here, investigators believe that the man who shot and killed their detective went into police headquarters the morning of the shooting.

But, again, the question here is why. Several reporters asking that to San Antonio's top cop a short while ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF WILLIAM MCMANUS, SAN ANTONIO POLICE: Absolutely feel targeted. I feel we were targeted. I think that the uniform was the target and anyone who happened - first person who happened along was the person that he targeted.

We have pulled out all the stops. We have engaged our federal partners, our state partners and our local partners in the search for this individual. The search has gone on since we started yesterday afternoon and it has not stopped all night and to this point. And it will not stop until this person is in custody.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANDOVAL: San Antonio's police chief there not only addressing what they believe is a motive, but also what is this massive manhunt that's taking place in south Texas. And what I mentioned a little while ago is this bizarre twist, a very brazen and bold move here, Pam, on this suspect to walk inside police headquarters, speak to the clerk for about 20 seconds or so, and then turn around and then walk out of the department. The police chief saying that they may think they know what was being discussed there, but they don't want to release that so as to not jeopardize the investigation. But it is still extremely puzzling when you look at this.

You have this individual who is suspected of gunning down a police officer in broad daylight, but just hours before walking into the department to be able to have a brief exchange with a clerk here. So, again, it's still a very fluid situation. What I can tell you, though, this hits home for so many people. We have had members of law enforcement, members of the community stopping by here, Pam. We have seen these quite a bit now, these make-shift memorials that start as a couple of flowers and then quickly grow outside the police department. This has shaken the south Texas community, Pam.

BROWN: Understandably.

And, Harry, just on that note, what do you make of the fact that the suspect walked into the police station and exchanged some word and then hours later kills an officer? I mean just bizarre behavior. You can't always apply logic to the illogical, but, I mean, what do you make of this?

HARRY HOUCK, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Yes, well, it's definitely bizarre behavior. But when you see something like this happen, one thing comes to mind is, was he looking for a target at that time first? Did he go into that station house, look and see maybe it wasn't safe enough for him to shoot anybody. Maybe he didn't see a target and decided this wasn't a good time to do it and then had left.

Clearly we could see - and I agree with the chief that the police officer, the uniform itself was definitely a target here. And we've got a really good video of this guy. And maybe, hopefully, they got a plate number of the vehicle that he got away in and police are actively - actually probably might even have a name or somebody connected to that shooting already and they're just trying to hunt him down.

BROWN: So you have this shooting in San Antonio and then you have three other shootings against police officers across the country. There's no evidence to suggest these shootings are connected. So how will investigators coordinate their efforts in trying to figure out what happened yesterday?

HOUCK: Well, I mean, that's the $65 million question. You know, why are police ambushes up like they are? And I know the "USA Today" did a study and ambushes are up 167 percent. Now these are ambushes. These aren't things that occur with a police officer's in the normal course of his duty. This is like the police officer here in San Antonio that was killed. I mean he was just sitting in his car writing a summons and someone came behind him and put a couple of bullet into him. And then also with the other officers that were involved in something like this. This is - this is what police officers fear.

Now, the fact is, if you come - walk up to a police officer in a radio car, and I know myself, when anybody ever came near me in a radio car and they had their hands in their pocket, I would not let them get any closer until I seen their hands because when you're a police officer sitting in a vehicle as a target, it's very hard to get to your gun fast enough where you're going to be able to return fire if somebody attempts to assassinate you.

[14:30:11] BROWN: That's just horrible what happened and we hope to learn more about