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Texas Police Officer Killed; Trump Administration and Torture; Trump Meets With Major News Networks. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired November 21, 2016 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:02]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Hawaii Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard, a major in the Army National Guard.

Moments ago, Gabbard revealed some details about her meeting with the future president.

I'm going to turn now to CNN's Jessica Schneider, right outside Trump Tower.

So, Jessica, what did the two talk about? What details have you learned?

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, Pamela, it was back in October when Donald Trump said he would not consider putting a Democrat into his Cabinet.

Well, could he be changing his tune? There's some talk that Hawaii Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard could be under consideration for several position, including secretary of state, secretary of defense, or even U.N. about.

Now, Gabbard was a member of the Hawaii Army National Guard. She even served two tours of duty in the Middle East. And as such, she used this meeting with president-elect Trump to discuss policy in Syria, as well as the war on terror against ISIS and al Qaeda.

In fact, after her meeting, she released a very terse and pointed statement. I will read it to you. In part, she said: "I felt it important to take the opportunity to meet with the president-elect now before the drumbeats of war that neocons have been beating drag us into an escalation of the war to overthrow the Syrian government, a war which has already cost hundreds of thousands of lives and forced millions of refugees to flee their homes in search of safety for themselves and their families. While the rules of political expediency would say I should have refused to meet with president- elect Trump, I never have and never will play politics with American and Syrian lives."

She also went on to say she does disagree with president-elect Trump and she's not afraid to voice those disagreements. But as we heard from Kellyanne Conway earlier today, not all these meetings inside Trump Tower are about job interviews, Kellyanne Conway saying that Donald Trump is welcoming the chance to talk with many people of many different perspectives and also hear them express their opinions as well -- Pamela.

BROWN: And Tulsi Gabbard not the only Democrat. He also met with Michelle Rhee recently.

Jessica Schneider, thank you so much. Do appreciate it.

And also on tap for Trump today, sitting down with top executives and anchors from the major news networks, including CNN.

So, with me now to discuss, CNN senior media correspondent Brian Stelter.

Brian, of course, you also host CNN's "RELIABLE SOURCES." Want to make sure we get that plug in there.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Thank you.

BROWN: But why the meeting and who was there?

STELTER: I just got back from Trump Tower and most of the journalists who attended are respecting the off-the-record agreement here, though Kellyanne Conway, Trump's former campaign manager, organized this meeting, said it went -- it was excellent. It went over an hour.

People like CNN's Wolf Blitzer, NBC's Chuck Todd and Lester Holt, ABC's Martha Raddatz George Stephanopoulos, and as well as top executives from five of the major networks. This was put together partly because, little, we all remember Trump's anti-media crusade during the campaign. And yet, at the same time, Trump has long-term relationships with lots of TV executives and anchors and people like that.

He's a creature of New York media. This meeting was to set a new tone and establish what it's going to be like going forward. You recall there's been some issues about lack of media access to Trump. For example, the so-called press pool that has not always been with him when he travels around either around New York or other places.

Well, according to a source within the meeting, there was real progress made on that issue of media access. Don't know much more than that. So far, like I said, journalists respecting the off-the- record agreement.

But just so our viewers know at home, it's not unusual or unprecedented for journalists to meet with presidents or presidents- elect off the record. It actually happened last night when President Obama was talking back from Peru. He talked with the journalists on his plane for about an hour in an off-the-record capacity, which means they can't share exactly what he said.

But so far what I'm hearing about the meeting, there was some progress made on the issue of media access.

BROWN: So, it certainly makes you wonder if there will be friendlier relations between Donald Trump and the media covering him in terms of him giving access that the media wants and has historically been given to cover presidents.

STELTER: That's right. I think there's always going to be hostility, always going to be some adversarial relationships here. But it always helps to at least be eye to eye with the person and explain why we need the access we need.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: All right, Brian Stelter, thanks so much for giving us that little glimpse into the meeting.

All right, much to discuss at this hour. I have got with me Domenico Montanaro, the lead political editor for NPR News, and CNN politics reporter Jeremy Diamond and Sara Murray.

Let's start with what Brian reported, the press. Jeremy and Sara, Trump is meeting with Indian businessmen, Ivanka sitting in on Trump's meeting with the Japanese prime minister, we would not have known about these meetings if it wasn't from pictures with foreign press or government. What does this tell you about press access in a Trump administration?

Sara, to you first.

SARA MURRAY, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: I think it certainly means we're not seeing the level of transparency we would hope to see at this point.

And I think there are still big questions. There are things the Obama administration did that were voluntary that the Trump administration may not do.

[15:05:01]

And we're waiting to see how far they're willing to go. It's alarming that he still doesn't have a fully protective pool. It's alarming that we're not getting full readouts of the people he's meeting with, especially at a time where there are a lot of questions about how Donald Trump is going to juggle sort of the transition process as well as his business.

He has not made this full step back that his transition team has insisted he's going to do.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Jeremy, go ahead.

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I would just say on the flip side of that, of course, we're seeing Donald Trump doing his Cabinet decision-making in very public view.

He is not necessarily providing a lot of access as far as really what's going on within those meetings, but we're seeing him kind of bring these potential Cabinet picks, whether it's at Bedminster or in the lobby of Trump Tower, parading them in front of the cameras, which is a very kind of Trump "Apprentice"-style way of doing Cabinet picks, kind of similar to what he did during the vice presidential selection process as welcome.

BROWN: Right.

Domenico, it makes you think back to when President Obama -- at the time president-elect Obama met with Hillary Clinton and it was all under wraps and he snuck her in and really tried to tamp down any speculation. It seems like just the opposite is happening here with president-elect Trump.

DOMENICO MONTANARO, POLITICAL EDITOR, NPR: Well, clearly there's a degree of public relations going on.

I think that president-elect Trump, whether or not he offers the job of secretary of state to Mitt Romney, it at least is something for him to be able to play off of all of us and show the country that he can be -- quote -- "magnanimous," to say, OK, here was somebody who called me a con man and I'm willing to dial it back and say, for the good of the country, let's meet, let's talk about it.

Now, how serious that is, we don't know. Mike Pence on the Sunday shows this weekend said it was very serious. We will wind up having to see who he winds up offering it to. We know Rudy Giuliani, who he was meeting with, also really wants the secretary of state job. He's been pretty loyal to Donald Trump, so he's probably the good money on who will get it.

BROWN: And, Sara, I know you have been talking to many sources that are in the know on the transition process. Can you give us a sense on how seriously he's taking some of these prospects such as Democrat Tulsi Gabbard, such as Mitt Romney, some of these people who you may not have expected initially for Donald Trump to consider?

MURRAY: Well, I think there's certainly concern even among some of the people going into these meetings that this could just be a head fake.

And Donald Trump's transition team has made it clear, yes, some of these meetings are just for information-gathering, to learn more about sort of how other people view the world and how you build a government. But I was told by a source this morning that Tulsi Gabbard is a person that they're actually considering for defense secretary, for secretary of state, for a possible U.N. ambassador.

Now, the question, as always, do you get past that line of consideration to actually pulling the trigger and naming one of these people to a Cabinet position? Because right now what we have seen are a lot of hard-liners, a lot of Donald Trump loyalists and a lot of, frankly, older white men who are being put into these positions.

We have not seen Donald Trump actually name one of these folks who would be considered outside the box for him yet to a Cabinet-level slot.

BROWN: And you have to think, not only would he potentially offer the job to someone like Tulsi Gabbard, but would she take the job? There's sort of two sides to this.

And you look at the meeting with Mitt Romney. We're told by Mike Pence he's under serious consideration, Jeremy, but they could not have more different views when it comes to foreign policy. Trump wants a relationship with Putin. Romney in his run called Russia the U.S.' most geopolitical foe. How do you bridge that gap?

DIAMOND: Yes, it's certainly difficult to imagine how Donald Trump and Mitt Romney could reconcile those views, particularly on Russia. Mitt Romney staked a big part of his 2016 campaign on the fact that Russia was about to become the number one geopolitical foe of the United States.

And in many ways, he was vindicated by that years later. And Donald Trump has really gone in the opposite direction of the GOP mainstream on Russia in saying he wants closer relations with Russia. So, especially in a world where Russia is so central to a lot of decisions, whether it's with regard to Iran, whether it's with regard to Syria or any other problem in the Middle East or even with NATO, it's hard to imagine how Donald Trump would be able to appoint someone like Mitt Romney, whose views are so antithetical to his.

But, at the same time, simply the image of Donald Trump meeting with Mitt Romney, meeting with a party leader who rebuked him during the campaign, that in itself is going to be something that is going to go a long way to helping Donald Trump not only heal the Republican Party, but put forward a good face.

BROWN: Yes, as Domenico had just also pointed out as well.

Before I get back to you, Domenico, I want to ask Sara, what's the deal with Chris Christie? Is he back in the picture now? What is going on?

MURRAY: I feel like what's the deal with Chris Christie could be a question that has a different answer every day of the week.

We have seen every iteration of this sort of soap opera drama between the two gentlemen. And, look, there's no doubt that the relations were pretty frayed and pretty raw last week, the week before that.

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Folks in Chris Christie's orbit really did feel like Jared Kushner was sort of on this personal vendetta. And there are certainly folks who are involved in the transition would agree with that. Folks who are involved in the Trump transition and close to Donald Trump, though, were insisting that there were concerns about the fallout from Bridgegate, there were concerns about the way Chris Christie structured the transition, that he put too many lobbyists in high- ranking positions.

But fact that the two of them met in person, the fact that he went to see Donald Trump over the weekend, maybe that's the beginning of a thaw. But I have to imagine if you're Christie, it's still pretty bruising to be booted out of that slot running the transition so unceremoniously.

BROWN: Yes, absolutely.

All right, Domenico, back to you. President Obama on his foreign trip has said he's confident he will see another Democratic president in his lifetime. But he also said he would be somewhat of a check on Trump. How does he do that, pick up the phone, call Trump? What does he mean by that?

MONTANARO: I think it's a really delicate balance for President Obama because he's somebody who wants to have Donald Trump's ear to at least try to influence him slightly.

We have seen that Donald Trump kind of listens to the last person who was in the room. You saw for five years Donald Trump had basically tried to delegitimize President Obama, called on him to release his birth certificate. And then after he meets with him, what wound up being apparently a pretty good meeting between the two, or a gracious meeting, at the very least, he said he's a very good man.

President Obama can't completely thwack at every pass. Otherwise, he will lose some of that influence. It's a delicate line that he has to walk. But he said that Donald Trump violates what he believes are core principles, then he will speak out.

BROWN: All right, interesting discussion with you three. Jeremy, Sara, Domenico, thank you very much. We do appreciate it.

Coming up next, his nickname is Mad Dog and he's known for his salty language -- why Democrats and Republicans are both praising Trump's potential defense secretary.

Plus, Trump's wife and son not going to the White House, at least not at first, why Melania and Barron are waiting to join the president- elect and what this means for the family's security.

And breaking news. Four officers in three states over 24 hours targets -- now a manhunt under way for the person who gunned down an officer in an ambush.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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BROWN: A man nicknamed Mad Dog could soon be U.S. secretary of defense. Retired Marine Corps General James Mattis now the front- runner to oversee the world's biggest military, with Donald Trump calling him -- quote -- "the real deal" and a man known for telling it like it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. JAMES MATTIS (RET.), FORMER COMMANDER, U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: If the president orders us into action, I have what it to make it the enemy's longest day and their worst day. Actually, it's quite fun to fight them, you know? It's a hell of a

hoot. It's fun to shoot some people. I will be right up front. Yes, I like brawling.

I have always kind of spoken my own mind. And, frankly, I have done it enough that it's a privilege to be invited here, because it's a privilege to be invited in front of my polite company anymore after some of the things I have said.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: And joining me now to discuss is retired Army Major General James "Spider" Marks, who is a CNN military analyst. Also with me is Bob Baer, CNN intelligence and security analyst and former CIA operative.

Thank you for both coming on. Do appreciate it.

General Marks, first to you.

Just I think there's a lot of curiosity about what he would do as secretary of defense. What would be his appetite for war? Will he more be in favor of troops in Syria, for example? What can you tell us about him?

BRIG. GEN. JAMES "SPIDER" MARKS (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, Pamela, I would say that what Jim Mattis brings to the table is a deep understanding of what the sacrifices, of the commitment of the young men and women in uniform look like.

So, I think he would be very cautious about the commitment of the military, but he's not bashful about, when you are committed, you're committed to -- quote -- "win the fight." And you have to define what winning looks like.

Jim Mattis is a very no-nonsense leader. And I think that's what the Defense Department needs. I would say, in simple terms, probably less emphasis on administration. There are enough folks that can administer and run the organization, and more on leadership and really shoring up a relationship with all elements of power that this nation brings to bear, as well as the administration.

BROWN: And he may have a bit of a hurdle, right, because it hasn't been seven years since he's been out of uniform. What can you tell us about that and his congressional waiver?

MARKS: Well, probably not a big deal. I think certainly there is always political capital that needs to be expended in order to get these things done.

George Marshall was his predecessor, kind of a very remarkable precedent that was set here. And then he assumed secretary of defense after five years of being out of uniform. But that's not really the issue. The issue is, this is not the long pole in the tent. He's the right guy to command, to lead the Defense Department. And I think there's sufficient galvanized support in our Senate to make that happen.

BROWN: Yes, on both sides of aisle.

Bob, this year, Mattis said that the Iran nuclear agreement was only a temporary delay to Iran's quest for a nuclear weapon. Now reports shows that the Obama administration has been considering new efforts since before the election to shore up parts of the Iran nuclear deal.

Bob, could Mattis potentially oversee the undoing of this deal? And what are the potential dangers in doing so?

BOB BAER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, General Mattis, I agree, he's a good choice. In fact, he's a great choice. I want to see a four-star general in there who has got combat experience, understands the Middle East.

He's not going to go into a confrontation lightly with Iran. He's knows what he is up against. He's been in Iraq. He's seen their involvement in that war. He is no-nonsense. If we change that agreement, he's the guy at the Pentagon that's going to add some real common sense to it.

But you look at the rest of the administration, it seems they really do want to undo that agreement and take on Iran.

BROWN: We will have to see what happens.

But I want to sort of switch gears here for a minute, General Marks, and talk about torture. I want to listen to John McCain, himself a victim of torture, with a very different take than the country's soon- to-be vice president, Mike Pence. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: I don't give a damn what the president of the United States wants to do or anybody else wants to do. We will not water-board. We will not torture.

(APPLAUSE)

[15:20:01]

MCCAIN: My God, what does it say about America if we're going to inflict torture on people?

MIKE PENCE (R), VICE PRESIDENT-ELECT: Well, I have great respect for Senator McCain.

And what I can tell you is that, going forward, as he outlined in that famous speech in Ohio, that a President Donald Trump is going to focus on confronting and defeating radical Islamic terrorism as a threat to this country. And we're going to have a president again who will never say what we will never do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So, General, I want to bring you back in. Torture is currently illegal, as we know. It's been found ineffective.

Do you think we're going to see a return of interrogation techniques that had been phased out?

MARKS: Well, let me answer it this way.

Were we to move down this path, we would have a major problem between an administration that is saying this is now a policy that's authorized and then those that have to execute that policy, because at the end of the day, the individuals who are involved in torture, involved in some form of water-boarding -- let's call it water- boarding -- there's a definition between torture and water-boarding.

I don't want to lump it all together. But the problem is that the individuals that would do that would then be potentially held legally liable for those actions that they performed, separate from the organization or the agency that they're a part of. They wouldn't be wrapped and protected in any type of legal protection as a result of their actions.

So you might have an administration that says, we're going to do it. You have the guys on the ground saying, we're not going there.

BROWN: Bob, you were in the CIA. What kind of response would we see, do you think, from the intelligence community if these kinds of torture tactics were in play or water-boarding was in play, whether that was to be readopted? What do you think the reaction would be?

BAER: It won't be good. The CIA rank and file are against torture. They went tough this for four or five years.

Internal documents at the CIA have stated very clearly it doesn't work. And also they're being held liable for this. The CIA is going to resist strongly to this. And I just don't think it's going to go anywhere because you're not going to get the rank and file to go along with this. And I believe at some point the administration's going to have to back down, but let's wait to see.

BROWN: All right, Bob Baer, General Marks, thank you very much for sharing your perspectives. We appreciate it.

MARKS: Thanks, Pamela.

BROWN: And up next, a shocking string of violence, four police officers shot in separate incidents in a span of 24 hours. The manhunt is still on for the suspect who opened fire on an San Antonio officer as he sat in his patrol car. We're live there with details on who investigators are looking for.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:27:03]

BROWN: Four cities, four officers shot all within a 24-hour period. The shootings happened in San Antonio, Saint Louis, and Gladstone, Missouri, as well as Sanibel, Florida. Three of the officers were wounded, but, in the San Antonio shooting,

a 20-year veteran of the police force lost his life. And now investigators are trying to hunt down the gunman who killed Detective Benjamin Marconi, who we see in this picture.

He's the 58th officer killed in the line of duty just this year. And take a look right here. This is a picture of the suspect. Investigators say he walked into police headquarters, asked a desk clerk a question, left, and then hours later killed Marconi right outside the police station. He shot him in the head as the detective was sitting in his patrol car writing a ticket.

San Antonio police chief speaking out just a short time ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAM MCMANUS, SAN ANTONIO POLICE CHIEF: Absolutely feel targeted. I feel we were targeted.

I think the uniform was the target. And anyone who happened -- the first person who happened along was the person that he targeted. We have pulled out all the stops. We have engaged our federal partners, our state partners and our local partners in the search for this individual.

The search has gone on since we started yesterday afternoon and has not stopped all night, and to this point, and it will not stop until this person is in custody.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: CNN law enforcement analyst Art Roderick joins me now.

Art, thanks for coming on.

So, you have this suspect walking into the police station hours before killing the officer. What do you make of this?

ART RODERICK, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, I agree with the Chief McManus on this particular point that the detective was targeted simply because he was in uniform.

And it looks like these other shootings you related to also are strictly because these individuals were wearing a law enforcement uniform. The numbers are staggering this year. I think we're upwards of 60 police officers -- I know you mentioned 58, but I include territorial police, police on reservations, campus police.

There's about 60 that are listed on the national law enforcement memorial that have been killed this year, which is up from 38 from last year. That's a 70 percent increase in law enforcement shootings this year, but also ambush-style shootings are up upwards of 150 to 160 percent when compared to last year.

BROWN: At this point, and it's still very early, there is no evidence to suggest these shootings are connected, Art. But how do investigators go from here, coordinating their efforts and trying to figure out what happened in this 24-hour span and why?

RODERICK: Well, I mean, when you look at just this 24-hour span, on November 18, there also a U.S. Marshal, Pat Carothers, who was shot and killed in Georgia, executing an arrest warrant against a very violent fugitive.

So, you have all these shootings, actually five incidents, back to back. Now, the information that is put out about the San Antonio shooter, there's a lot of information that law enforcement has put out, his photograph, incident prior to the shooting, his getaway vehicle.

So, there's a lot of information that they have