Return to Transcripts main page
WORLD RIGHT NOW WITH HALA GORANI
Trump Interviewing Candidates For Key Cabinet Roles; Activists: 27 Killed In Eastern Aleppo Monday; Pope Allows Priests To Forgive Abortion; Fillon And Juppe Advance In French Republican Primary; South Korea Corruption Scandal Growing; Immigrants Fear Deportation In A Trump America; Four Police Officers Shot In 24 Hours In Four U.S. Cities; Trump Meets Top U.S. TV Executives. Aired 3-4p ET
Aired November 21, 2016 - 15:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[15:00:22] CLARISSA WARD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello. I'm Clarissa Ward sitting in for Hala Gorani. We are live from CNN London and this is THE WORLD RIGHT
We begin with a busy day at Trump Tower in New York. The U.S. president- elect is conducting a new round of interviews as he works to narrow down his short list for key cabinet positions.
We can't see what is going on behind closed doors, but there has been a lot of activity in that lobby with a constant stream of arrivals and
Here is what we know as of this hour. The spokesman for Donald Trump's transition team says there could be some type of personnel announcement
today, but gave no further details.
Today's visitors include former Texas Governor Rick Perry, former Massachusetts Senator Scott Brown, and Hawaii Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard,
surprise to some as she is a Democrat and was an outspoken Bernie Sanders supporter.
Trump's former campaign manager, Kellyanne Conway, now a senior adviser, says, he is consulting with a diverse group of people. She says the
process takes time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KELLYANNE CONWAY, TRUMP SENIOR ADVISER: Well, we know that we're ahead of schedule where other presidents have been so we are not in a rush. It took
President Jimmy Carter five weeks to fill some of these positions, Reagan, three to four weeks, President Obama two or three weeks.
So we know there is Facebook and Twitter anxiety now, but that wasn't always the case. The fact is that you have to take your time, it's a
serious business, and he has all of these people to interview and to consult with and until that is done he is not in a rush to make those
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WARD: Let's bring in CNN political analyst, Josh Rogin, who is following the transition talks from Washington. Josh, when can we expect some more
announcements? What are you hearing?
JOSH ROGIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, there is definitely a focus on getting the national security picks decided first. Those are people who
need to be in place when the transition is complete. They also need to be vetted and receive their security clearances, a process that takes time.
I'm hearing that the national security picks could come as soon as early next week. In other words after the Thanksgiving break when a series of
meetings will be finished and the Trump team will have a chance to sort of process what they've learned and then make some final decisions.
WARD: But you say early next week, a lot of people are speculating that this is taking a long time. Give us a context of, you know, looking at
previous administration, is this taking a long time or is it taking longer than usual?
ROGIN: Actually it is not. If you look at the appointments for national security posts in the Obama administration in 2009. They came out after
Thanksgiving. So it is roughly on schedule. I mean, the deference here is that this is playing out on national television.
We've never had a live camera shot of the meeting -- elevator leading to the meetings and this has caused increased speculation. I would also say
that there is a sense that there is a delay.
Because a lot of the transition work that was prepared before the election has been scrapped along with most of the people who did that preparation so
in essence they are starting from scratch.
But in the end, one will really remember the process. The process is always messy, and in the end it is "who are the picks" and not how were
they selected. That will be the most important thing.
WARD: OK, Josh Rogin in Washington, thank you.
We want to take a closer look now at Mitt Romney, one of the leading candidates for secretary of state. The 2012 Republican presidential
nominee met with Trump over the weekend.
Romney is apparently a recent convert to Team Trump after being a fierce critic during the campaign, perhaps more than anyone who symbolize the
bitter split between Trump and the Republican establishment. Here is a reminder of what Romney said back in March.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MITT ROMNEY (R), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud. There is plenty of evidence that Mr. Trump is a conman, a fake. He
is playing the members of the American public for suckers. He gets a free ride to the White House and we all get a lousy hat. He has neither the
temperament nor the judgment to be president.
[15:05:02]Donald tells us that he is very, very smart. I'm afraid that when it comes to foreign policy, he is very, very not smart. His promises
are as worthless as a degree from Trump University.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WARD: That was then and this is now. So what changed? Let's bring in Kevin Sheridan, who served as a senior adviser to Romney during his 2012
presidential debate. Kevin, what has changed?
KEVIN SHERIDAN, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER, ROMNEY FOR PRESIDENT: Well, what's change is President-elect Trump got elected on his own platform and in his
own way and now he is the future president of the United States. I think all Republicans are looking very seriously at what that means and he has
the pick of anyone inside the party, outside of the party.
People who are critical of him, people who are opposed to him, even, and you know, he can start that conversation with them, and I think that is
what you saw this weekend with Mitt Romney.
And we really don't know if he's going to offer him a position or if Mitt Romney would accept the position, but we know that they had a, quote, "far
reaching conversation on foreign policy."
And Mitt Romney in 2012 was very (inaudible) in some of his predictions and some of his thoughts on the Middle East and on other hot spots around the
world, and warned against President Barack Obama's disengagement from the Middle East in what ultimately led to Syria and the disaster that we see
So I think it is a good sign for the country and the party. It's a good sign for the country that if people are coming together. They are putting
aside some of the nasty things that people said about each other and everybody are just trying to get together on the same page now.
WARD: But there are some real key differences in terms of how they approach foreign policy or from what we know of Donald Trump. He certainly
seems a lot more forgiving and conciliatory in tone towards President Putin, towards Russian aggression specifically in Syria. That is a very
different tune to the one we've heard Mitt Romney singing. Do you think the two can align?
SHERIDAN: Well, we really don't know. We need to see what comes out of these discussions. I think Russia was probably one of those topics during
their hour and 20 minute discussion, but we really just don't know.
We don't know Donald Trump how much is posturing, how much is setting up for an opening bid negotiation. We don't know what his policy will be
until we get there. We just know that Russia could be a threat to us in a number of parts of the world in the Middle East and it could be a help to
So we'll have to see how it plays out and I think having two smart people talking about Russia, and the Middle East, and everything foreign policy
wise between these two men is a really good sign for America. It's a good sign for the country that the leaders of our country are talking.
WARD: So looking more broadly, Kevin, at the cabinet that is starting to emerge, and I put the emphasis there on starting, what are some of your
observations about some of the people who President-elect Trump has been sitting down with, reaching across party lines. What sort of a vision do
you think he has for this cabinet?
SHERIDAN: We saw with his first three picks that it has been a surprise to no one that he was going to put people that supported him early and often
and were featured at his convention into his cabinet. Those are the loyal people like General Mike Flynn and others.
So what we're going to see now is how much beyond that circle he is going to expand, and Mike Pompeo for CIA, he was somebody who is considered a
very smart and capable person. He wasn't out on the stump for Donald Trump all that much, but he is one of those.
Now he is going beyond that and he'll talk to -- he's talking Democrats now, Michelle Rhee, and others, so we really don't know, Tulsi Gabbard, a
Democrat member of the House is somebody he's talking to as well.
So he could talk to a number of people and get their ideas, and get their thoughts and what kind of a member of his cabinet they would be and then he
just has to pick who he wants, who he is comfortable with.
Because he really ran his own case, it was without the normal levers of power. He owes no one anything really. The voters elected him and he can
pick whoever he wants.
WARD: Do you think it's going to be ultimately, though, a more establishment looking cabinet than perhaps he sort of branded himself as
wanting to make?
SHERIDAN: No, I think you are going to see a cabinet that is reflective of the entire party and it sounds like he is willing to talk to people who are
critical of him. So that's a really good sign.
That means he is willing to provide real leadership and be allowed to listen to voices who are not necessarily loyalists but were critical of
him. And I think that's a really good sign for things to come. We'll just have to see who he picks, though, but from the signs that we're getting,
from who he is talking to, it's a really good sign I think.
[15:10:04]WARD: All right, Kevin, well, we'll be watching closely. Thank you.
SHERIDAN: Thank you.
WARD: To Syria now where a week of relentless airstrikes has unleashed vicious horrors and utter heart breaks. A warning, you may find some of
the next images disturbing as they come to us from inside the ravage city.
WARD: This father is trying to wake up his teenage son, refusing to accept he is dead. The boy was only one of more than 300 people killed in rebel-
held Eastern Aleppo since Tuesday when the government's latest bombing campaign began.
Activists say 27 people were killed today alone, and yet for all of the violence and warnings, many are simply refusing to give up hope for the
country and the city they love. Here's Will Ripley.
WILL RIPLEY, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The explosions are like clockworks in rebel held East Aleppo, all day, every day.
ISMAIL ALABDULLAH, ALEPPO RESIDENT: They don't know how to wake up normally without sound of bombing, without anything.
RIPLEY: Ismail Alabdullah takes cover in his basement during our 14-minute conversation, I count at least 17 blasts.
(on camera): And there's another one.
(voice-over): Each getting louder and closer.
(on camera): I'm listening to these explosions here and it seems like it doesn't even faze you. I mean, you're so used to it.
ALABDULLAH: It's normal for us. We're not human beings anymore because of this.
RIPLEY (voice-over): This is a normal day in East Aleppo. First responders racing from sight to the next. This is our country, our
country, says this man refusing to even let destruction like this force him from his home.
(on camera): Why do you stay?
ALABDULLAH: Why do we stay? We stay because it is our cities. We stay because we have no place to go.
RIPLEY: Alabdullah say the more than quarter million people who remain in East Aleppo don't trust the so-called humanitarian corridors. He says
snipers on both sides shoot and kill people who try to leave.
ALABDULLAH: I would not -- we're going to die.
RIPLEY: He lost three friends in three days. He says many feel tired, hopeless, and abandoned by the world.
ALABDULLAH: I think it was --
RIPLEY (on camera): That was close. That one was close.
ALABDULLAH: OK, I'm going to go.
RIPLEY: OK, be safe.
(voice-over): Despite nearly five years of pleading for help, the relentless bombing of East Aleppo continues.
WARD: Activists inside Aleppo say only one hospital is now functioning in the eastern part of the city with all others destroyed or damaged by
Will Ripley joins us now with the latest from Istanbul, Turkey. I mean, Will, an excruciating piece to watch, but I'm just wondering, given these
horrifying images, is there any new momentum to get talks going in again or get aide in again?
RIPLEY: The united nations says that they still have not received even a response, Clarissa, from Russia or Syria in regards to their plan, which
rebel groups have accepted at least in theory to bring supplies, humanitarian relief, in terms of food and medicine to people, a quarter
million people in East Aleppo, who will so desperately need it as their stores run out and the markets grow even emptier.
The pharmacies are pretty much empty. A lot of medications are already gone and yet they have no answer. Samantha Power said to the U.N. Security
Council, Ambassador Power, that during the three-week humanitarian pause, Russia allowed not even one parcel of food or any supplies to go into this
And so you have these people who are growing increasingly hopeless. They feel abandoned by the world. They look at President-elect Donald Trump and
the United States, remarks by Syrian President Bashar al-Assad saying that he sees Trump potentially as a natural ally in his fight against terrorism.
But yet we've seen over the last week that the Syrian regime's definition of terrorist targets include nearly all of the city's major hospitals
including all the trauma centers, schools, ambulances, the blood bank.
Vital services that are needed now more than ever for the increasingly number of trauma victims as a result of these bombings that are more
horrific than anybody on the ground says they had seen since the siege on Aleppo began in mid-2012.
[15:15:05]I know you have been there, Clarissa. I have not but just in that Skype interview, hearing those explosions, all of us here, our hearts
were racing. We were worried for Ismail. I text him immediately afterward and said are you OK?
And he said yes, I'm OK for now, but his building shook because that's how close the bomb came. People don't know where the next bomb could fall. It
could be on their home, school, it's really heart breaking.
WARD: It is and as you said the people there feel abandoned by the world. Will Ripley in Istanbul, thank you.
Meantime, we've just learned that U.S. ambassador to the U.N. has named and shamed Syrian commanders are responsible for civilian killings and
injuries. Samantha Power has listed a number of military leaders vowing to hold them all to account. She says the international community is watching
their actions and documenting their abuses.
To the east in Iraq, now the operation to retake Mosul from ISIS has just received praise from Washington. Here is the current status of the battle.
The green area shows neigborhoods the Iraqi forces have liberated. The red zones are areas where the fighting is raging.
U.S. Vice President Joe Biden has just called Iraq's prime minister to hail the progress Iraqi forces are making. Haider al-Abadi said troops are
gaining from all sides. The battle around Mosul has raged for more than a month now and there are concerns it could trigger sectarian violence.
Still to come tonight, Pope Francis makes a ground breaking move on abortions. We will be live in Rome with analysis and a political shop in
France as one former president's comeback is unceremoniously halted. Stay with us.
WARD: Now to a ground breaking move by the Catholic Church, Pope Francis has given priests the power to forgive women who have had an abortion. The
pontiff has written an open letter reaffirming the belief that abortion is, quote, "a grave sin," but saying, there is no sin that God's mercy cannot
He continues, "I hence forth grant to all priests in virtue of their ministry the faculty to absolve those who have committed the sin of
Let's bring in Delia Gallagher for more on this new approach. She joins us now from Rome. Delia, what is the significance of this?
DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Clarissa, what is important about this is that before only a bishop could give forgiveness
for abortion. It is considered a sin in the Catholic Church which carries with it excommunication. So only a bishop was allowed to grant forgiveness
and lift that excommunication.
And so what the pope is doing today is saying we no longer need to just leave it up to the bishops, all Catholic priests now have the power to
forgive the sin of abortion.
[15:20:07]De facto, this has been happening already in the Catholic Church in the United States and in the U.K. There have been exceptions where
bishops can allow their priests to do it, but the pope today is making it a rule from Rome that from now on all priests are allowed to forgive the sin
And you know, Clarissa, the pope has said that he has met women who he says bear the scar of this painful and agonizing decision. So his move today is
his effort to welcome those women who have felt excluded because of an abortion back into the Catholic Church.
WARD: Delia, you know, some people have suggested that perhaps this is some kind of a veiled political statement from the pope on abortion,
perhaps a nod to Donald Trump. Do you think there is any weight to that?
GALLAGHER: Clarissa, I think that would be a wrong interpretation of the pope's statement today. If for no another reason then, the pope is against
abortion. He is making a distinction between an abortion and the person who has an abortion, the sin and the sinner.
The pope has said abortion is a horrendous crime. He spoke in the U.S. to the Congress saying that politicians were responsible for helping to
protect life in all stages of its developments.
So it's an important point that the pope is maintaining the Catholic Church's stance on the abortion, and I don't think with this statement
today trying to influence policy in the U.S. or any other country.
But what he is essentially saying is I'm against abortion, but not against women who have had abortions and I want those women to feel welcome in the
Catholic Church -- Clarissa.
WARD: OK, Delia Gallagher for us in Rome, thank you.
Well, it was cast as his big come back, but Nicholas Sarkozy's bid to once again become the president of France ended in failure. He came in third in
a vote for the nomination of France's center right party, Alain Juppe came in second, and Francois Fillon was the shock winner.
The two candidates now go forward to next Sunday's final round vote into so who is Francois Fillon? He was Nicholas Sarkozy's prime minister for five
years from 2007 to 2012. The 62-year-old lawyer is a conservative Catholic who has opposed gay marriage. He is campaigning on a pro-business
platform. He won 44 percent of the first round votes.
Let's go live to Paris now where Melissa Bell joins us. This was to be Sarkozy's big comeback. Is France in shock? Are people surprised?
MELISSA BELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Very much so, Clarissa, and it was really all sewn up. At least the two candidates that should have gone through
according through all the polls and last night's results, it was expected that Alain Juppe, the mayor and the former prime minister, would go through
that second round in order to face off against Nicholas Sarkozy, who has been campaigning without relent over the course of the last 18 months,
Clarissa, to make sure he is the right wing candidate in next year's presidential poll.
Of course, that has now failed and contrary to all predictions, Francois Fillon, tops the poll. In fact, the extent of his victory, 44 percent. He
nearly went through, Clarissa, in that first round suggested that even next week there is very little doubt that he will become the man to lead the
right win party through to next year's poll.
WARD: So do you think, Melissa, that this is part of what we're seeing across Europe where Fillon, apparent outsider, is kind of ousting this more
establishment candidates who are largely expected to win these victories?
BELL: There is once again this thing about the polls. They simply seem incapable of judging the public mood that are probably calling election
results. We've seen it time and time again.
What is really interesting with this particular result is just how right winged Francois Fillon is, particularly on economic issues. His program is
very radical by French terms. He wants to scrap things like the 34-hour week.
He wants to lose 500,000 civil service posts. He really wants to shake up the French system economically. He's presented as a French speaking
(inaudible), a stature on the French political spectrum.
This is very new. Even Alain Juppe says he will simply never get past the street. People will go out en mass to protest against what he says.
The real question is now whether someone with that sort of platform will be able to (inaudible) Marine Le Pen at next year's polls and what's expected
is that the far right candidate should get through that -- that first round voting and that she will then be facing off with the winner of next
Sunday's second round of (inaudible) given the disarray currently in the Socialist Party here in France.
[15:25:05]It looks as though that will be Francois Fillon. Will someone as right wing economically and a socially conservative as that manage to
attract both the working classes that would vote for Marine Le Pen.
And those on the left that he will have to attract if he wants to get more than 50 percent of the vote in that crucial second round, but it is
already, Clarissa, towards next year's presidential poll that the whole country is looking.
WARD: OK, well, he certainly has his work cut out for him. Thank you, Melissa Bell, in Paris.
The leadership battle is also starting to take shape in Germany. Chancellor Angela Merkel has confirmed she will seek a fourth term and she
expects to be her toughest run yet.
Merkel needs to win support from an electorate divided over an open door refugee policy. Just two months ago, her party suffered a major defeat in
local elections. Merkel says she expects to face opposition from the right and the left.
Coming up, Donald Trump has a whole lot of jobs to fill as he tries to shape his new administration. We'll speak to one of advisors about that
And there is fear in the immigrant community across the U.S. after the election of Donald Trump. CNN visits a family in Oklahoma that is worried
about the future.
WARD: Welcome back to THE WORLD RIGHT NOW. Here is a look at this hour's top headlines. U.S. President-elect Donald Trump is interviewing more
candidates for key cabinet roles. The transition spokesman said we could hear a personnel announcement today, but gave no further details.
Trump's visitors to Trump Tower today included Tulsi Gabbard, a Democratic congresswoman who was an outspoken supporter of Bernie Sanders.
Activists say 27 people have been killed in bombardment on the rebel-held eastern part of Aleppo on Monday alone. More than 300 others have died
since the Syrian government's latest bombing campaign, which began a week ago. Eastern Aleppo has now just got one functioning hospital according to
activist in the city.
Pope Francis is giving Roman Catholic priests the authority to forgive women who have had an abortion. In an open letter, he reaffirms the
church's position that abortion is a grave sin, but he also says there's is no sin that God's mercy cannot reach.
South Korea's president is under more pressure than ever to resign. Besides massive protests, an opposition party says it is now starting a
petition for her impeachment. Dire is all that seems analysts say President Park Geun-hye is not likely to step down.
[15:30:02] Paula Hancocks has more now on the roots of corruption in South Korean politics.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Elected on an anti- corruption ticket, Park Geun-hye's pledge to clean up South Korean politics has gone disastrously wrong. Hundreds of thousands are calling for
resignation in a live protests.
Park has become yet another presidential face of what one of her predecessors called the Korean disease. Park now considered a suspect by
prosecutors is accused of conspiring with a confidant who is not part of government but was part of a cult-like religion.
Jason Shill (ph) was indicted Sunday on charges of fraud, abusive of power and coercion accused of extorting millions of dollars from big
conglomerates like Samsung and foundations for personal use. She's apologized and denied the charges against her.
JOHN DELURY, YONSAI UNIVERSITY: One problem with corruption in South Korea is that it does have its roots in the very same reasons why it's such an
economic miracle. That is the cooperation, which is also collusion between the government and big business.
HANCOCKS: Not including Park, there have been six presidents since South Korea officially became a democracy in 1987, every single one of them has
been linked to corruption either directly or through immediate family. Two spent time behind bars. One, (inaudible), committed suicide in the middle
of an investigation into corruption.
HASUNG JANG, KOREA UNIVERSITY: Politics and the business groups linked and creating corruption and also shaken the entire country from the
fundamentals. So we are very ashamed and we are very much worried about it.
HANCOCKS: Park's father, Park Chung-hee, ruled South Korea with an iron fist in the 60s and 70s. Some saw him as an economic savior and others saw
him as a dictator. He trampled on human rights. Residents that once supported the daughter now fear they have voted in a ghost of the father.
This protestor tells me this sort of thing happened with her father 40 years ago. The times have changed. The public will not put up with this
(on camera): President Park has apologized twice since this scandal broke. She's even effectively offered to give up some of her power to parliament,
but so far it's simply not enough. These protestors are not interested. The only speech they want to hear is her resignation speech. Paula
Hancocks, CNN, South Korea.
WARD: Well, let's get more now on those meetings that have been taking place at Trump Tower, I'm joined by a senior adviser to the Trump campaign
and former CIA director, James Woolsey, and senior editor for "The Atlantic," David Frum, who also served as a speech writer and advisor for
George W. Bush.
Ambassador Woolsey, let me start with you. There's been a lot of speculation and discussion about President-elect Trump's national security
picks particularly concerns raised about General Flynn. Do you think that any of the criticisms or concerns are merited?
JAMES WOOLSEY, SENIOR ADVISER, TRUMP CAMPAIGN: It does not seem to know be so. General Flynn is plain spoken and a tough officer who has drawn
penalty in the armed forces for saying what he thought and calling it straight. And that I think is the first job of those of us who have worked
for presidents in the past and in the future, which is to call it straight.
The president of the United States does not have trouble getting people who are willing to say whatever he wants them to say, but he sometimes does
have trouble getting people who will call it straight no matter what the circumstances. I think General Flynn is in that category.
WARD: What about on Russia, though, because this is a key issue where President-elect Trump and General Flynn really diverged from the rest of
the pack in terms of more main stream Republican thinking. Very conciliatory and even praising of President Putin. What do you make of
that kind of a conciliatory line with Russia?
WOOLSEY: I don't think it matters yet. I think it is a matter of diplomatic opening. It doesn't necessarily foretell any specific policies.
In diplomacy, sometimes you have to work in a friendly fashion with people that you are quite happy with, for example, Franklin Roosevelt and Winston
Churchill work very closely with Joseph Stalin in World War II because we needed him against Hitler. They called him Uncle Joe, but it didn't mean
they were going to not stand up to Stalin after the World War II, and they did stand up to Stalin.
WARD: OK, I want to bring in now David Frum. David, what is your impression throughout this process, I mean, nothing has been orthodox in
terms of this transition period?
[15:35:02]But how would you assess it in comparison to previous transitions. It almost seems to have taken on the air of a spectacle if
one can say that.
DAVID FRUM, FORMER ADVISER, SPEECHWRITER FOR GEORGE W. BUSH: I have enormous respect for Ambassador Woolsey as an American patriot and a
supporter of democracy worldwide. There is just some issues on which I would like some comfort from him. I would like to know, for example, that
today's allegations that the president-elect asked for special financial treatment from the president of Argentina.
I'd like to know if that story is untrue. The president has said it. The president-elect has denied it. The president-elect has not always been
truthful. I know Ambassador Woolsey is always truthful.
I would like to know -- I would like some comfort that General Flynn, the future national security adviser was not on the payroll of any foreign
government when he took intelligence briefings.
I would like to know that the national security advisor of the president- elect have reconsidered their view that Crimea properly belongs to Russia, which was seized by violence in 2014.
Those are the kinds of things that a lot of us will be looking for leadership to people like Ambassador Woolsey. I think he is a great voice
within the Trump administration. I hope that his will be the voice that prevails.
WARD: Ambassador, let me ask you to respond to some of those particularly when we are talking about General Flynn possibly being on the payroll. We
know that he was involved with Russia today, which is, of course, owned by the kremlin. How do you respond to David's questions there?
WOOLSEY: Well, I have not looked into these individual cases. I'm not part of the administration. I was just someone who worked in the advisory
capacity in the campaign and the transactions that move us from one representative to another.
I am -- I don't know the answer in detail to any of those questions. I think that it is most unlikely given his values that General Flynn did
anything that was illegal whether some conflict of interest rule was broached or not, I'm not sure.
But I think that will all come out. The way we do things in the United States as Mr. Frum knows is lay everything out in front of everybody and
argue about it, and I imagine that will happen in these cases.
WARD: OK, so David going back to my original question, you know, how unorthodox is this when you look at previous administrations, particularly
the one you advised in, what is your reaction watching this process play out in realtime?
FRUM: Well, in the Bush administration, because of the Bush 43, because of the recount, it was very truncated transition. There's a lot of things
that should have happened in the three months between the election and the inauguration had to be crammed into a very weeks.
What is unorthodox about this transition has been the absence of a lot of normal safe guards for national security that are usually present.
Apparently the president-elect is talking to foreign leaders on unsecured lines.
Apparently the president-elect is talking to foreign leaders without State Department notes or even without proper note takers. The president-elect
is inviting members of his family into -- who, by the way, run his very global enterprises, into meetings with world leaders suggesting that if you
need any favors, this is the person to talk to.
The president-elect has cut into his time serving the people to arrange for business meetings with investors in his project, one of whom tweeted a
photograph of himself.
A lot of people would like to see the president-elect and these Bombay businessmen, who are doing business with him. But most troubling story is
the allegation that on the phone with the president of Argentina, the president-elect of the United States asked for a special favor.
We don't know whether that's true. We all have to hope it's not. It would be astounding if it were true. I hope there was a note taker on the line.
I hope there is somebody from the State Department recording the call as would be proper.
WARD: And let me just say, David, that the Trump campaign has come out and said emphatically that there was no wrong doing there, but let me ask you,
FRUM: But the problem is that Donald Trump lies a lot. I would like more comfort than just his word. It's painful that I have to say about our
future president of the United States. I'm not going to take Donald Trump's word for things. I would like independent verification in the form
of a report from a note taker or State Department recording.
WARD: OK, so Ambassador, I mean, what you're hearing from David, does this not give you a sense that perhaps the riffs within the Republican Party are
far from being healed and that Donald Trump has a real challenge on his hands bringing everybody together here?
WOOLSEY: Well, this has been a very curious and different political year and the victory of Mr. Trump in the presidential election was forecast by
almost no one, but it was reasonably decisive.
[15:40:02]And I think that there is going to be a shakedown period in which material gets alleged and rebutted, put out in public, and argued about,
and that's our American way. If somebody did something wrong, violated law, a conflict of interest or otherwise, I don't think there is any way
it's not going to come out and so I think --
WARD: But when does it become a distraction from the work of being president?
WOOLSEY: It is an important part of the work of being president to the get these things clear. I think there are conflicts of interest issues in all
administrations at one time or another, and I think the speed and the procedures which have been followed here by the Trump administration are
reasonably good in moving along and naming people.
The national security area and others and I don't think that there is an immediate problem of not going fast enough for the president to elect his
sampling of discussions with a lot of people who are potential cabinet members and similar level.
And making up his mind in doing it, I think, reasonably quickly. So I don't think there is any to need to worry about distractions and rush or
WARD: David, I mean, you know, you do have to give it to President-elect Trump that he is at least on the surface apparently reaching across to a
pretty broad spectrum of people who he is talking to, Republicans and Democrats, people --
FRUM: What are you talking about?
WARD: His meetings with Tulsi Gabboard.
FRUM: Tulsi -- sorry, Tulsi Gabbard is -- what we're looking for are people who are not stooges for foreign dictator. I don't care whether you
have a D beside your name or an R beside your name. If you're a stooge for foreign dictator. You're a problem.
WARD: OK, but would you not concede Michelle Rhee, another Democrat who he has been talking to. He has been speaking to people from both parties.
FRUM: Yes, but in the national security area, where the (inaudible) are sounding (inaudible) and the question -- we have very serious allegations
of Russian tampering in an American presidential election, those are not rebutted.
And we have at the heart of the U.S. government, at the heart of the national security's race, people who apparently took money from the Russian
state and Turkish state. That is extremely troubling.
We want to have answers to those questions. I'm delighted the president- elect is talking to Michelle Rhee. She did a fabulous job here in the District of Columbia. There are many honorable people especially in the
But I'm worried about the non-Senate confirmed appointments in the White House. I'm worried about who his White House staff will be. I'm worried
about who his National Security Council staff would be. Those are not Senate confirmed people and that's where mischief can occur.
WARD: OK, some real concerns there. David Frum, Ambassador Woolsey, thank you both so much for your analysis.
Donald Trump promised change if he was elected president. Now that is becoming a reality. Many are excited, but others are worried. Rosa Flores
traveled to Oklahoma where some immigrants fear they could soon be deported.
LILI, "DREAMER": I want him to have one day of the life that I live.
ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This immigrant mother challenges President-elect Donald Trump to feel her biggest fear, being
ripped from her children because she could be deported.
LILI: Break families, would he want to leave his family?
FLORES: Lili who is only sharing her first name has lived in Oklahoma for 20 years. She was brought to the U.S. as a child and now has five U.S.
LILI: You have a dream. When you buy a house, you want your grandchildren to come visit.
FLORES: But in a Trump America, she says that that dream may not come true. She is selling her home and preparing her children for her possible
deportation. Lili is not alone, says immigration attorney, Melissa Lujan. Her clients haven't stopped calling wanting to know how they can survive a
MELISSA LUJAN, IMMIGRATION ATTORNEY: The fear is absolutely real. We have no idea what is going to come from the next administration, but there is a
lot of scary rumors and the president completely has the control to take some pretty significant action.
FLORES (on camera): This isn't the first time that fear has taken over the immigration community here. Something very similar happened when a state
immigration law passed in 2007. The fear of deportation turned to panic and that panic turning into an exodus of immigrants.
(voice-over): The law made it illegal to transport or house undocumented immigrants. Homes in immigrant neighborhoods sat vacant, businesses
closed, and people like Lili fled to other states.
[15:45:07]LILI: I was sleeping in my car.
FLORES (on camera): What about your kids?
LILI: I had to leave them here with my mom.
FLORES (voice-over): The other unintended consequence, according to police, crimes in immigrant neighborhoods went unreported.
PACO BALDORAMA, OKLAHOMA CITY POLICE DEPARTMENT: The root fear is that the police will become basically that door to door extension of immigration
laws. And historically, historically, it's never been our role. Never.
FLORES: As Trump's inauguration draws near, Lili cherishes every little moment with her children.
LILI: I wish Donald would see what we have to go through, that's all.
FLORES (on camera): Community leaders are bracing themselves for another potential departing wave of immigrants. So much so they are organizing
public forums to educate the community and calm its fears. Rosa Flores, CNN, Oklahoma City.
WARD: This is THE WORLD RIGHT NOW. Four police officers shot within 24 hours in four American cities, all while carrying out traffic stops. We'll
have the details on the bloodshed.
WARD: A rash of police shootings in the U.S. has rattled the law enforcement community. Four officers were shot in four cities on Sunday.
In three of the incidents, it appears the shooter specifically targeted police. Polo Sandoval has the story.
POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Four separate shootings targeting police officers across the country. A massive manhunt in Texas
for a man suspected of killing a San Antonio officer around 11:45 a.m.
Detective Benjamin Marconi was shot and killed while sitting in his squad car. The 50-year-old officer was writing a ticket during a traffic stop
when a man walked up to his driver-side window and opened fire.
He shot Marconi in the head from outside of the car. Police say the suspect then reached through the window and shot the 20-year veteran again.
Police releasing this photo of a man who may be in connection with the shooting and this photo of a car they say fled the scene.
CHIEF WILLIAM MCMANUS, SAN ANTONIO POLICE: Most families will be celebrating the holidays, SAPD will be burying one of its own.
SANDOVAL: Hours later in St. Louis, a 46-year-old sergeant was waiting in traffic when the suspect, a man wanted in other violent crimes pulled up to
the driver side of his patrol vehicle and opened fire. He shot the 20-year veteran twice in the face.
CHIEF SAMUEL DOTSON, ST. LOUIS POLICE: The officer says he saw the muzzle flashes and felt the glass breaking in his window as the shots came through
and struck him in the head.
SANDOVAL: The suspect apparently worried about being identified now dead after a shootout with officers overnight. No other officers were injured.
DOTSON: We were tracking him. We came to this neighborhood. We found him, he shot at officers again. Police officers returned fire.
[15:50:05]SANDOVAL: Another officer shot in Missouri late Sunday night in a traffic stop in Gladstone. That's near Kansas City. And in Florida, a
suspect already in custody after police say Officer Jarred Ciccone was shot while conducting a routine traffic stop in Sanibel.
According to police, Ciccone was on the side of the road when a suspect drove by and started shooting. Ciccone was injured, but has since been
released from the hospital. Polo Sandoval, CNN, San Antonio, Texas.
WARD: Coming up a controversy that is front and center stage. Why the musical "Hamilton" is hitting the wrong notes with Donald Trump?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello, sir. Heard you went to see Hamilton, how that was?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was good, I got a free lecture.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I heard they booed you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I love you, Mike. You're the reason I'm never going to get impeached.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WARD: Alec Baldwin and Beck Bennet there on "Saturday Night Live" spoofing Donald Trump's criticism of musical "Hamilton. Trump demanded an apology
after a speech by the play's cast directed at Vice President-elect Mike Pence who was in attendance.
The company called on Pence to work on "behalf of all of us." A speech that was met with boos directed at Pence. And Trump isn't too happy with
the "SNL" cast either calling the show one sided and biased in response to skits like the one you just saw.
Despite a rocky past few days when it comes to Trump and the media, he is now reaching out and speaking to executives from America's five biggest
Brian Stelter is in New York and joins us with more. Brian, what is the purpose of this meeting?
BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: We have just published a story on cnn.com with what little I have been able to learn about it so
far. It was off the record, Clarissa, meaning the details of the meeting won't be shared by the journalists who were there.
This is kind of like what happens when President Obama or past presidents like President Bush have invited journalists to the oval office for off the
record conversations, which allows both the politicians and the journalists to be very candid and blunt.
But we know that in this hour-long meeting earlier today at Trump Tower, there was real progress made with regards to media access. This has been a
big concern for two weeks.
How accessible will Trump be or not be once he's in the White House. There have been skirmishes when Donald Trump goes somewhere without the media.
I'm told there was progress made on this issue according to two participants who were in the meeting.
Now tomorrow Trump will be meeting with the "New York Times," with the top publisher and top editors of the "Times." Another example of his new found
outreach to the media.
WARD: OK, Brian, stay with us a moment. We want to take a look more closely at Trump's grievance with the cast of "Hamilton," and let's remind
ourselves of what was said to Mike Pence during that fateful curtain call.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRANDON VICTOR DIXON, PLAYS AARON BURR IN "HAMILTON": We, sir, we are the diverse America, who are alarmed and anxious that your new administration
will not protect us, our planet, our children, our parents or defend us and uphold our inalienable rights, sir.
But we truly hope that this show has inspired you to uphold our American values and to work on behalf of all of us, all of us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[15:55:10]WARD: Since then, the actor who read the statement has said the cast has nothing to apologize for, but as you can see Trump was furious on
Twitter calling "Hamilton," which has won 11 Tony Awards, highly overrated." Brian, what is this? Is this spectacle? Is this diversion?
Is this actually a significant kind of crackdown on the arts and on media?
STELTER: I think it is Donald Trump venting, expressing his frustration the way he knows how which is Twitter, but the reason why, I think we have
to pay attention to this is because if he continues to tweet, Facebook, and criticize Broadway shows, media, "SNL," or entertainment, it could have a
chilling effect on artistic expression.
One of the things Trump said on Twitter over the weekend was, "This should not happen" referring to the cast of "Hamilton" addressing Pence. Those
are the kinds of words that are going to the back of artists' minds.
So I'm not saying this right now today is a threat to free expression, but it certainly is reason for journalists and artists and creative types to
pay close attention to his presidency.
There is a slogan -- one of the most famous lines from "Hamilton" is I'm not throwing away my shot. That's what the cast members were doing on
Friday night. They had a rare opportunity to address the vice president- elect so they went ahead and took that opportunity. I don't anybody at that show regrets it today.
WARD: OK, Brian Stelter, thank you.
Here in England, few things are as fine an art as the perfect cup of tea. As any Brit will tell you, for a truly daring touch, nothing beats the
edition of a cookie, known here as a biscuit.
There is daring, and then there is downright daunting. This is what Simon Berry saw when he dunked his biscuit into a cup of tea from a height of 70
meters. The stunt set a record for the world's highest bungee dunk. He was commemorating the sale of the 100 millionth copy of a record book named
after another great drink, Guinness.
Well, this has been THE WORLD RIGHT NOW. Thank you for watching. "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is up next.