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Trump Taps SC Governor For U.N. Ambassador; Possible Carson Role in Trump Administration; Trump Brushes Off Conflict of Interest Questions. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired November 23, 2016 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: NEWSROOM Starts right now.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Hello and welcome to CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Pamela Brown, in for Brianna Keilar.

Well, travel's not a problem when you're president-elect and you don't have to worry about cooking, of course, but the holiday will probably not be entirely stress-free for Donald Trump and his closest aides because even with one more hire announced this morning, most of the new administration still needs to be filled out.

The new addition is South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley, whom Trump wants to represent the U.S. at the U.N. Trump says Haley has a proven record of bringing people together to move policies forward. Haley says she's honored to join Trump's team.

And a she might not be the only one. Ben Carson just dropped a pretty big hint about a big new job for himself. CNN's Jason Carroll joins me from Palm Beach, Florida, with the very latest.

So what's going on with Carson's tweet announcement about this possible upcoming role? What can you tell us, Jason?

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it looks like, Pamela, we might have an announcement sometime this afternoon according to what Ben Carson is saying. If you look at his tweet, he basically said, tweeting that "an announcement is forthcoming." And then you look at what he said on FaceBook. He said, "after serious discussions with the Trump transition team, I feel I can make a significant contribution, particularly to making our inner cities great for everyone."

Initially we thought last night that perhaps Ben Carson was going to take the weekend, the holiday weekend, to think about this position, but now it looks like, Pamela, looks like we might have a decision sometime later today.

BROWN: Huh. All right. We'll be keeping our eye out for that.

And let's talk about Nikki Haley. You know very well, Jason, that Trump is known to place loyalty over almost everything else, but he didn't quite choose a longtime fan in this case, did he? CARROLL: Not a longtime fan at all. I mean these two have clearly had

a history. I mean right now you've got Donald Trump saying that this is a governor that is very good at bringing people together in crisis, obviously referring to what happened with the confederate flag and her state of South Carolina.

But you look at what happened during the primary. I mean Nikki Haley was someone who endorsed Marco Rubio, she criticized Donald Trump repeatedly for not releasing his taxes, for not disavowing David Duke, former leader of the KKK, quickly enough. I mean these two clearly have a tenuous history.

Just take a listen to some of the sort of critics, the criticisms that we've heard these two lobby at each other sort of back and forth over time.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT-ELECT: First of all, she's very weak on illegal immigration. Very weak. She's very, very weak on illegal immigration. You can't have that.

GOV. NIKKI HALEY (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: We need to show that South Carolina makes presidents, and that our next president will be Marco Rubio!

I will not stop until we fight a man that chooses not to disavow the KKK, that is not a part of our party, that's not who we want as president. We will not allow that in our country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARROLL: Well, Pamela, you know in politics things can change very quickly. Donald Trump now feels as though Nikki Haley, Governor Nikki Haley, is the right person to be a U.N. ambassador. He also says, you know - and the campaign has responded to critics who say that she doesn't have the foreign policy experience. Jason Miller saying that she has worked in overseas trading in the past.

And Nikki Haley, for her part, releasing a statement saying in part, "when the president believes you have a major contribution to make to the welfare of our nation, and to our nation's standing in the world, that is a calling that is important to heed." So it looks like these two have buried the hatchet and are ready to work together.

BROWN: All right. And if she is confirmed, important to note, that her lieutenant governor, who is a Trump supporter, who was during the campaign, would then be governor of South Carolina.

Jason Carroll, thank you very much. We do appreciate it.

And I want to talk a little bit more about Nikki Haley with Matt Moore, chairman of the South Carolina GOP.

Thank you so much for coming on, Matt. We do appreciate it. So you just heard Jason touch on the criticism that's come out about

Nikki Haley not having the foreign policy chops and the experience. What makes her qualified for this job as U.N. ambassador in your view?

MATT MOORE, CHAIRMAN, SOUTH CAROLINA GOP: Well, to borrow Governor Haley's catch phrase, it's a great day in South Carolina and in America. Governor Haley has established herself I think as one of the nation's best governors for a couple of reasons, most of which is that he's able to work across party lines. She has a great ability to connect with people. She's a daughter of immigrants who has a great perspective on other people's points of views and working across barriers and party lines. She has that personal touch. She's a modern leader. She texts. She does her own social media. I think she understands the complexities of the world. Every stage of life in her professional career, she's established herself as a leader from being president of her freshman caucus class in the state house here, to last week being named vice chair of the RGA, the Republican Governors' Association. So, Governor Haley has the skill set, I think, to be an incredibly talent and skilled U.N. ambassador.

[12:05:12] BROWN: And most people outside of the state first learned about Governor Haley during last year's protest over the confederate flag. Just remind us how that went down.

MOORE: Well, Governor Haley, on the issue of the confederate flag, in the wake of the Charleston nine shooting, when it comes to things like floods, hurricane management, she is an incredibly competent manager of people and manager of agencies. I think she'll be good at that, at the U.N.

But in the wake of the shooting in Charleston, of the Emanuel nine, Governor Haley helped to bridge a divide here in South Carolina that has divided the state a very long time, that is the confederate flag. The confederate flag came down off of the South Carolina state house grounds. She overcame a lot of division to get that done. And she exerted a lot of political will when many said that it couldn't be done. And so I think that's the case here, too, as U.N. Ambassador. She has, throughout her life, proven people wrong.

BROWN: All right, Matt Moore, thank you so much for coming on the show. We do appreciate it and happy Thanksgiving to you.

MOORE: Thank you, Pamela.

BROWN: And joining me now with more on the Haley nomination, and nominations yet to come, are "Washington Post" columnist and CNN political analyst Josh Rogin and "New Yorker" correspondent and CNN political commentator Ryan Lizza.

So, let's first talk about Ben Carson, because that is sort of the newest news coming out just before the show is he made this announcement over Twitter that said something's going to be happening. He's going to play a role in the administration. There's speculation that will be HUD secretary.

What's your reaction, Ryan? RYAN LIZZA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, a couple things. I mean

he did run for president, and then his spokesperson, Armstrong Williams, said last week that he did not - that Carson was not going to serve in the Trump administration because he felt like he was not prepared to run an agency. Now, that is a spokesperson. That's not Carson himself.

BROWN: Right.

LIZZA: So maybe he was freelancing. But - so the first thing is, that's unusual for your spokesperson to say you're not going to serve because you're not qualified.

The second is - thing is, we don't know from Carson's background any experience he has about the housing issues that the head of HUD would deal with. So he's going to be stepping into a position. He's going to deal with some very sticky issues. The Fair Housing Act, for example. There are a lot of important questions around housing, desegregation that HUD deals with. The Obama administration has been very forward leaning in keeping federal funds from the cities that they don't believe are doing enough on desegregated housing. So some very sticky racial issues that he'll have to deal with if he's confirmed for this position. And, of course, HUD is that agency that sued Donald Trump's organization way back in the '70s and '80s for unfair housing practices. So it's an important position and -

BROWN: And how might he be able to take his personal experience, though, to the table on this? Because, you know, initially people thought, well, he would be a good fit for Health and Human Services. Obviously he's a doctor.

LIZZA: Right, a doctor, yes.

BROWN: What makes him a good fit for this in terms of the personal experience he brings to the table?

LIZZA: You know, I don't know, really. It will be interesting to hear from him -

BROWN: Yes.

LIZZA: To see how he thinks anything in his background prepares him to run an agency like that. It does - it is an important agency in a lot of inner cities. It deals with a lot of sticky issues around race and housing. And as one of the most high-profile, African-American Republicans, you know, he will bring a perspective to that job that a lot of other Republicans might not.

BROWN: And what do you make of this, Josh? I mean, as you pointed out, Ryan, just last week his spokesperson, business manager, said that, you know, he didn't feel like he was qualified to run a big agency. As you point out, that was just his spokesperson. We don't know what Ben Carson actually thinks. But what's your surprise? I mean what's your reaction to this?

JOSH ROGIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: You know, I think the Trump transition team has been very open about the fact that they want diversity in the cabinet. The last three guys they appointed were all white guys named Mike, OK, so it's important to sort of -

BROWN: Yes.

ROGIN: To show that it's going to be a cabinet that has a range of - of racial, gender identity.

The other thing is that, you know, there's a divide inside the Trump transition team between the loyalists and sort of the establishment people. And a lot of the people that Donald Trump has been bringing in to see him have been people who weren't involved in the campaign, who weren't always supportive. Nikki Haley, General Mattis, right? This is a nod to those people who were with Trump in the beginning, that they will be rewarded. And the people that were waiting to see if they also get rewarded include Chris Christie and Rudy Giuliani.

BROWN: And you mentioned Nikki Haley and the criticism and the lack of diversity thus far before the announcement of her being nominated to U.N. ambassador. She is young. She's female. She's the daughter of Indian immigrants. Are those things as important to Trump as her resume or perhaps more important given the context of the situation, Ryan?

LIZZA: You know, there's a couple things here. There's a little bit of South Carolina political intrigue with this pick, right, because the lieutenant governor -

BROWN: As we pointed out earlier, yes.

LIZZA: Right, the lieutenant governor is going to ascends to the governorship. He was a -

BROWN: And he was a supporter.

LIZZA: Early, hard-core supporter of Donald Trump. And so there - there's been some reporting that in some South Carolina politicos have been really pressing Nikki Haley into the Trump administration.

[12:10:08] BROWN: And so you think that was part of the calculus that he -

LIZZA: I think that's something that Trump would take into consideration, right? And that is a way to reward a loyalist, right? Your loyalist is now going to be the governor of South Carolina, an important state. Look, she doesn't have experience, any foreign policy experience, and that's important. You know, other ambassadors to the United Nations, they send their best diplomats. Russia right now has, what's his name, Vitaly Churkin. He's a longtime professional diplomat from Russia. We're sending - Trump's going to send a governor of South Carolina without any foreign policy experience. So she's going to have to get up to speed on some very important issues very quickly.

BROWN: And another cabinet pick may be coming soon. We hear that secretary of state apparently is Romney's if he wants it. If it is offered to him, should he take it, Josh? ROGIN: Right. I think he should and would take it if offered. Right

now, according to transition sources I talked to this morning, there are three camp. There's the - a camp in New York that really still wants Rudy Giuliani to be secretary of state. There's a camp in D.C., a large camp, of mostly foreign policy establishment people who are pushing hard for Romney. And then there's a smaller camp still pushing for John Bolton. And then today the sort of mix was thrown into disarray when General David Petraeus -

BROWN: Yes, right.

ROGIN: Gave an interview with BBC News saying that he would serve in the administration and he could be a candidate for secretary of state. What they're trying to do is find the candidate that appeals to all three of these camps. If Romney's not that guy, they'll have to go down on their list. But right now the - Romney's in the leading position and he's got a lot of support. It's also a signal to the foreign policy establishment which has been very never Trump, that the door is open and that they're welcome back into the fold, and that could be a signal for a lot of other people who don't want to work for Trump but will work for Mitt Romney.

BROWN: So you mentioned David Petraeus' name being floated now, but, I mean, this is someone who not long ago reach a plea deal with the Justice Department over, you know, mishandled classified information.

LIZZA: Yes.

BROWN: How likely is he to be someone in Trump's cabinet?

LIZZA: You know, so far it does seem like Trump has a lot of respect and admiration for former military officials, right? His national security adviser, General Flynn, Mattis is being considered seriously for defense, and now we've got Petraeus in the mix. I don't know how serious the Petraeus thing - maybe Josh has some reporting on that, but that's the first thing people are going to point out if the he picks Petraeus is -

ROGIN: Well, actually -

BROWN: Given all the criticism against Hillary Clinton during the campaign.

ROGIN: Right.

LIZZA: Exactly.

ROGIN: Well, what a Trump transition official told me today was that the response will be simple. Donald Trump, on the campaign trail, defended David Petraeus over and over again, right? He - his whole thing was, Petraeus didn't do anything that bad and he got pushed, while Hillary Clinton escaped punishment for doing something much worse. So if they do choose David Petraeus for one of these roles, they will simply point to those statements from the campaign trail and say, see, Donald Trump was on Petraeus' side the whole time.

BROWN: Interesting. All right, do you want to add something real quick?

LIZZA: Well, I was going to say, this is a great, very telling pick, because ideologically on foreign policy, Trump has been associated with one camp in the Republican Party, much more non-interventionist, very against the Iraq War, much more willing to engage with Russia. The circle of people he's choosing here are in those camps in various ways. Romney is probably the most, you know, almost polar opposite of Trump on all of the big foreign policy issues. If he chose Romney, it will be interesting, not just because Romney was his biggest critic, which just ideologically they haven't been in sync.

BROWN: And given the fact that he nominated Nikki Haley, who was also a critic on the campaign trail, I guess it wouldn't be that big of a surprise if he picks another critic.

LIZZA: Yes. Absolutely.

ROGIN: And Nikki Haley is seen as a reliable conservative on foreign policy. She is anti-Iran. She's pro-Israel. That would fit with Romney if he decides to go that way and it would be a signal to the foreign policy community, but also to countries around the world that American foreign policy isn't really going to change as much as they might have thought.

LIZZA: (INAUDIBLE).

BROWN: All right interesting discussion. Thank you so much. Ryan and Josh, do appreciate it.

And up next, President-elect Trump says when it comes to running a business, and being president, the law is, quote, "totally on his side." Our legal expert weighs in, up next.

Plus, what it takes to turn a beach resort into one of the most protected areas in the country. That's coming up as well. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:18:00] BROWN: Well, President-elect Donald Trump is pushing back as questions about his international business ties, telling "The New York Times," quote, "in theory I could run my business perfectly and then run the country perfectly. There's never been a case like this." Trump's argument, that the law is totally on his side and that the president can't have a conflict of interest.

So I want to discuss this with CNN legal analyst and defense attorney Danny Cevallos.

So let's get right to it, Danny, is Donald Trump right when he says the president is exempt from conflict of interest laws?

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: He sort of is, although he phrases it in truly a trumpian fashion. He is right when he says that the federal criminal law that would apply to conflicts of interest for federal officials exempts specifically both the president and the vice president. And the specific rationale behind that is that the president, every day, makes so many decisions that have a butterfly effect all over the world, so it would be impossible to really analyze his conflicts of interest, whether they be business or otherwise. So it exempts him and allows him, it trusts him with his judgment and the vision is that he will use his best judgment, even though it may adversely affect his business interests or promote them.

BROWN: But what about, you know, you have anti-corruption laws, constitutional bans on accepting donations from foreign governments. The Trump organization does businesses with companies all around the world, Turkey, China, Saudi Arabia, Azerbaijan. What, then? I mean could anybody be enforced to keep the president in check potentially?

CEVALLOS: It's a thornier issue whether or not he's violating what's called the emoluments clause. And what that essentially does is prohibits the president from receives gifts, whatever those may be, from foreign governments. It's an issue that has been very little litigated. So a lot of this is sort of conjecture. For example, what constitutes a gift or payment from another country? What if it goes to Trump's business and not him - he himself? How much can he separate himself?

[12:20:07] And then, at the end of the day, there's an issue of what's called justiciability and the constitutional law fans, that basically means that there are certain issues that you simply can't take to court. They're left to the political branch. For example, if a president were impeached and he didn't like the process, he can't ask a court to intervene because the court would recognize that process is laid out completely and left to another branch other than the judiciary. So this may be an issue that may not even be able to be adjudicated.

BROWN: And short of impeachment, there's really no way to enforce certain laws against him, right? I mean that would be the only way essentially if he's - when he's president?

CEVALLOS: That's the theory. For example, if you have this emoluments clause, but you don't have any way to enforce it against the president, it's essentially a precatory law. In other words, it's a pretty please, we hope you use your best judgement law because there may be nothing at all that we can do about it if you decide to go rogue.

BROWN: All right, Danny Cevallos, thank you so much.

And I want to bring in my panel now. Brian Hook, a former special assistant to President George W. Bush and foreign - a former foreign policy adviser to Mitt Romney. Also with us, A. Scott Bolden, former chairman of the Washington, D.C. Democratic Party.

So, Brian, I want to start with you.

And thank you both for coming on. I do appreciate it the day before Thanksgiving.

A. SCOTT BOLDEN, FORMER. CHAIRMAN OF WASHINGTON D.C., DEMOCRATIC PARTY: Thank you for having us.

BROWN: "The Washington Post," Reuters and other media outlets suggest that Trump's answer carried the echoes of Richard Nixon's infamous line to David Foss (ph) almost 40 years ago. Let's take a listen to that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In a sense you're saying is that there are certain situations, and the Houston plan or that part of it was one of them, where the president can decide that it's in the best interests of the nation, or something, and do something illegal?

RICHARD NIXON, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: Well, when the president does it, that means that it is not illegal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Is that a fair comparison, Brian?

BOLDEN: Well, Scott. I'm Scott.

BROWN: Scott, I'm sorry. Scott.

BOLDEN: Definitely, but I like Brian.

BROWN: Brian, jump in.

BOLDEN: No, of course that statement was wrong and we know what happened to Nixon shortly thereafter.

BROWN: Right.

BOLDEN: The bottom line is, this conflict of interest law, we've never had a candidate like Donald Trump before.

BROWN: And that Donald Trump pointed out himself.

BOLDEN: Right. And so the statute, 203, that, you know, the commentator was speaking about, it didn't go far enough because it presumed that the president would do the right thing, set up a blind trust and what have you. And so, of course, there's a conflict of interests here. Of course it may not be enforceable. But remember this, the conflict of interest law is one thing. If the president or President Trump breaks the law in some other way, whether it's fraud, Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, any other outwardly breaking of the law, that's certainly enforceable against him.

And then, secondly, look for Congress, regardless of whether it's Republican run or not, look for them to strengthen some of these laws in this conflict of interest law because while they're all Republicans, they have good government types there and if Donald Trump acts like he is abusing it, like not divesting himself, what was most elected officials do, then that's going to be a problem. It's not going to be - he cannot be emperor of the United States of America. He has checks and balances and look for even the Republicans to look to keep him in check.

BROWN: What do you think, Brian, about that argument (INAUDIBLE)?

BOLDEN: I still answered the question.

BROWN: Yes. Yes. I - go ahead.

BRIAN HOOK, FMR. SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO GEORGE W. BUSH: I think as Donald Trump said, this is unprecedented. In modern times, we have not seen anybody with the scope and scale of his business holdings go into the Oval Office. And this is going to require, I think, a lot of necessary steps, a lot of consultation with White House ethics lawyer. He has very good lawyers working for him. He has every incentive to avoid the appearance of conflicts of interest. He was elected with the mission to drain the swamp. And that's going to be very important, I think, for his voters. And he's going to be incentivized, I think, to put these issues behind him. Reince Priebus and Mike Pence have both said that they will take all necessary steps to stay on the right side of the law, the right side of the Constitution, and to avoid the appearance of conflict.

BROWN: But what is the incentive beyond him coming out and saying, I want to drain the swamp? I mean what really is it? What would incentivize him?

HOOK: Well, the big incentive is, you don't want to have a drag on your policy agenda. He wants to be able to advance the issues that he was elected to help get passed through Congress. And if he's spending all of his time trying to knock down conflict of interest stories and dealing with, you know, getting on the right side of the Constitution, that isn't where he wants to be. And so I think that as time goes on, look, he was in business 50 years. The election was two weeks ago. It is going to take some time to work through all of these issues. And I think we have to assume that they want to take the necessary steps.

BROWN: Right. And if will take time. I mean I think we have to put this in perspective. We're only a couple of weeks -

BOLDEN: Yes, but the timing is just one part of it. The reality is, does Donald Trump and his team have the aptitude to drain the swamp? Because if he doesn't divest, if he doesn't pay attention to these conflicts of interests, he's just digging a deeper swamp, if you will. I think politics, I think the media are going to be big in keeping him in check and I do think he wants to get things done. And, remember, midterm elections are coming in two years. You can't ignore that because that's going to be the stand that the Democrats are going to put their stake in to try to get back at least one of the houses.

[12:25:22] BROWN: All right. And I want to get your reaction, both of you, on this announcement, this tweet from Ben Carson about an announcement forthcoming about his role in helping to make America great again. Here's the tweet right here. What do you think? You know, A. Scott, Trump has been criticized for his lack of diversity in his cabinet. He appears to be tapping Ben Carson. We heard the Nikki Haley announcement earlier today for U.N. Ambassador. What's your reaction? BOLDEN: Well, initially I said publicly he was 0-4 on diversity. Well,

now maybe he's going to be 2-6. It's a natural pick for him. The - Ben Carson took him to Detroit during the campaign. And Donald Trump promised to change urban America with jobs, job training, and entrepreneurship. And so if we're going to rebuild the cities, as Carson said in his tweet, then most likely he's going for the Department of Housing and Urban Development and there's a lot that can be done. Ironically, HUD is the one that sued Trump 30 or 40 years ago in regard to race discrimination in regard to tenants in the '70s. And so the fear -

BROWN: That's right. We brought that up earlier. Yes.

BOLDEN: It will be an interesting pick.

BROWN: Yes.

BOLDEN: And I think - I think Ben Carson turned down Health and Human Services, it seemed like. He didn't want to do that. And it looks like Trump doubled back, not just because of diversity, but Ben Carson is an brilliant guy and a strong supporter of Trump and will give it to him straight.

BROWN: Yes, because initially it seemed like he was hesitant to even be the in cabinet, in the administration at all, and then he said in the announcement today that he had been talking to the Trump transition team and this sort of makes sense. What's your view on Ben Carson potentially being the HUD secretary, Brian?

HOOK: I think Ben Carson is a natural pick for HUD. I think, as you mentioned, Nikki Haley is also a natural pick for, you know, the U.N. - U.N. ambassador. I think that they both fit well in those respective roles. I think especially Nikki Haley, who has a very good bedside manner, which is something which every diplomat needs. I think she'll do very well in Turtle Bay. And I think they both seem to be pretty good picks.

BROWN: Quickly, I want to get your reaction on the possibly of Mitt Romney being secretary of state? What do you think, Scott?

BOLDEN: Yo know what, the question is not so much whether he can be secretary of state, that he - I think he'd be an outstanding secretary of state compared to Trump and his views on international relations. The question is, can Mitt Romney do it and work within this administration because if Donald Trump is going to be the president that's going to be meddling with his cabinet secretaries, then that's going to be a problem.

BROWN: Well, and they have vastly different views when it comes to Russia, for instance?

BOLDEN: Very much so. How long will he last if he takes it?

BROWN: Yes, exactly.

All right, Scott, Brian, thank you both for coming on. We do appreciate the interesting discussion. And happy Thanksgiving to you both.

HOOK: You too.

BOLDEN: Back to you.

BROWN: And just ahead, the mayor of Chattanooga, Tennessee, joins us to talk about the investigation into the school bus crash that killed five children three days before Thanksgiving.

And take a look. Little Dominion Brown (ph) was one of them. You'll also hear from the mother and how she learned her six-year-old child had died. Such a sad story. We're going to discuss right after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)