Return to Transcripts main page

Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield

Sixth Chattanooga Child Dies; Missing Teen May Be With Murder Suspect; A Woman Kills Mom and Kidnaps Her Baby; Pet Owners Sue Store, Groomer for Killing Puppy. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired November 23, 2016 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[20:00:00] DANNY CEVALLOS, GUEST HOST: We`re following breaking news in the deadly school bus crash that killed five elementary school children.

Tonight, the results from the driver`s drug and alcohol screening are in.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): Police and federal investigators combing through video and data from that tragic crash. And tonight, officers say there was no

alcohol or drugs in the driver`s system.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We really desperately want to hear from (INAUDIBLE)

CEVALLOS: A 17-year-old is missing, and police say she`s in danger. That`s because they believe she could be with a man suspected of stabbing

his wife to death.

A Texas woman faked a pregnancy, then cops say she did the unthinkable, murdered a new mom and kidnapped her week-old baby girl. Now she says the

shooting was an accident.

And this puppy`s grooming appointment turns into a nightmare for his owners.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bleeding profusely from his mouth.

CEVALLOS: They say when they picked him up, little Henry was near death with broken ribs and a punctured lung. Now they want to hold the groomer

and the store accountable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CEVALLOS: Hello, everyone. I`m Danny Cevallos, in for Ashleigh Banfield. And welcome to PRIMETIME JUSTICE.

We`re following breaking news in that school bus crash that killed five children in Chattanooga, Tennessee. Just a few hours ago, police say

results of toxicology tests on the driver, 24-year-old Johnthony Walker, came in negative.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As it relates to the blood draw, we received toxicology reports back today from the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation that shows no

trace of alcohol or drugs in the driver`s system.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CEVALLOS: And tonight, investigators double down on efforts to figure out what caused this horrific crash, looking at every frame of on-board video

and data from the bus. Police say Walker was driving well above the speed limit but are not sure yet just how fast he was going.

Joining me now in Chattanooga, CNN correspondent Nick Valencia, and HLN senior producer Natisha Lance. Also, defense attorney Margie Mow and

former prosecutor and CNN legal analyst Paul Callan.

Nick, I want to start with you. We`ve heard from a lot of different officials today. What have we heard from the NTSB?

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I want to start first, Danny, with breaking news. We just received this just a little while ago from the

Chattanooga Police Department. We`re told by the police that a sixth child has passed away as a result of injuries sustained in Monday`s fatal bus

crash.

This morning, 12 of those precious little children were still hospitalized, we were told six in stable condition, six in critical condition. By this

afternoon, six had been released, but we knew that one of the victims was clinging to life. We`re told it was just a short time ago that that victim

sustained just critical injuries and is now pronounced dead, the sixth victim in this fatal bus crash, Danny.

CEVALLOS: Nick, that`s terrible. Are there any other children who are in such a precarious position or are you getting any word about what the

status may be, other than just critical or serious?

VALENCIA: You know, we wish we could tell you those details. Police were pretty tight-lipped at a press conference this morning. We did get some

details about Johnthony Walker, that 24-year-old suspect in this fatal bus crash.

We`re also -- just to get back to this 6-year -- I`m sorry, the sixth victim -- I`m getting new information from my producer -- apologize as I`m

reading this, but Keante Wilson (ph), 8 years old -- we`re getting more details about this. He`s died as a result of his injuries, I should say.

I`m sorry. I`m just getting this information, Danny. Referring to the fight his brother put up in the hospital, they said he was a tough little

boy. I know he`s in a better place. That is more information about that sixth victim that died as a result of Monday`s crash.

Getting back to the investigation, Johnthony Walker, 24 years old -- you mentioned those toxicology reports coming back negative, no drugs, no

alcohol in his system. Police also saying that they`ve issued warrants for any of those recording devices, audio and video recording devices in the

bus. They`re trying to scan that.

They`ve also said, interestingly enough, that they`ve yet to interview any of the child survivors. They believe talking to the children at this very

fragile state that they`re in would just add to their trauma.

I was speaking earlier to a bishop here who has really been sort of the support system for this community, for a lot of the families anyway, and he

was telling me just how terrible it was inside that hospital yesterday -- or I should say Monday as families got the news. He said this morning, he

could still hear those gut-wrenching screams that he heard as those family members were finding out that their little children had died -- Danny.

CEVALLOS: It`s terrible to hear, Nick. In terms of the warrants for the video and audio from the bus, do we know that there is actual video and

audio on the bus?

VALENCIA: The NTSB said that this morning. The problem, though, with this all is that they may have been heavily damaged.

[20:05:00]You`ve seen the wreckage. You`ve seen the video of that bus. It crashed into a tree, flipped. I mean, it was just a really, really

horrific crash that led to the fatalities -- of death, I should say, of six children. So we don`t know exactly what investigators will be able to

glean.

Another interesting note that we heard from the NTSB at this press conference earlier today was that sleep deprivation may have played a role.

It`s been reported by the NTSB that Johnthony Walker recently took a second job to try to make extra money during the holidays, and he was working

extra hours. They`re looking at whether or not sleep deprivation played a role in this accident -- Danny.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the course of looking at the history of Talley Road, we just ascertained that Talley Road was not on the designated route for

that school bus. We are investigating why it was not on the designated route and also why he was going a way that was not on the designated route.

We don`t know the answer to that yet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VALENCIA: So we`re still trying to figure out why exactly he wasn`t on that designated route. We know, of course, according to initial reports,

physical evidence, as well as eyewitness testimony, that Mr. Walker was simply going too fast, well above that 30-mile-per-hour posted speed limit

-- Danny.

CEVALLOS: Yes, Nick, what are you hearing from the actual bus company that owned the bus or operated the bus?

VALENCIA: Well, the CEO of that company did release a YouTube statement earlier today. It was a very emotional plea to the public, saying he

couldn`t tell us much details about the investigation. He was limited in what he could say.

But he did say that they`re going to do everything they can to assist investigators and try to help out family members in this community that are

going to have a very devastatingly sad Thanksgiving holiday. This is a terrible, terrible turn of events that happened here on this holiday week.

There`s going to be some empty seats at this Thanksgiving table. It`s just really terrible to think about these families not spending Thanksgiving

holiday with their children -- Danny.

CEVALLOS: It`s terrible, Nick. Thank you for that -- Nick Valencia.

Also with me by phone is Natisha Lance, HLN producer. Natisha, you`ve been spending a lot of time with the families. What do you hear from them?

NATISHA LANCE, HLN SENIOR PRODUCER (via telephone): Well, Danny, it`s obviously such a really difficult time for all of these families. And they

go through a variation of emotions. Sometimes, they`re trying to be hopeful. Other times, they become very frustrated and other times angry,

and other times understandably very sad, shedding tears as they are reliving some of the moments when they found out some of their children

were deceased.

I spent most of the day today with Jasmine Teem (ph), who`s the mother of three children who were on the bus. Two of her children survived, and her

6-year-old daughter, Diana (ph), died in that bus crash.

Her two children who were on the bus said that they saw the 6-year-old sister, who was on the bus, and she was smashed between two of the seats.

She said that she went back to the scene. She tried to get information from officers. She went to the hospital. She couldn`t find out any

information there, went back to the scene again and back to the hospital when she was ultimately told by a chaplain that her daughter had passed

away.

Now, this mother also says that she complained about this bus driver before. She had written a letter, allegedly, two weeks prior to the

school, complaining about the bus driver speeding in the neighborhood. We have reached out to the school and haven`t heard anything back on that yet.

And she`s also, as Nick said, a very difficult time thinking about Thanksgiving. Her two daughters who were in the hospital who were also on

the bus were discharged yesterday. They had some injuries, but they`re going to be OK and she is thankful about that at least -- Danny.

CEVALLOS: Now, Natisha, I understand you also talked to the mother of the school bus driver, who apparently called her immediately after the crash.

What can you tell us about that?

LANCE: Yes, this was -- I spoke to the mother of the bus driver. And she says that her son called her at about 3:20 that afternoon and he told her

that he had been in this wreck, in a bus accident. She said that he was hysterical. He said that there were limbs and bodies everywhere. And then

the phone disconnected.

And then about nine minutes later, she said that she received a text message from him again stating that he had been in this wreck and that

there were children who were dead and it was his fault.

We`ve tried to reach out to the mother again today to get more information. At the time I spoke to her, she said that she was working with a bondsman

to get her son released. She also offered a statement to us, sending her condolences to the families who were affected by this crash, but also

asking for people to show some support for her son, who was also affected by this crash. She says it was an accident.

CEVALLOS: Thank you, Natisha -- Natisha Lance.

I want to bring in my guests. Margie Mow is a criminal defense attorney, and of course, Paul Callan is a CNN legal analyst and a former prosecutor

himself.

Paul, first to you. I have to ask you, we`re hearing about phone calls from the defendant to his mother. If there were statements made, and if

the mother testifies, how could those statements be admitted against this defendant?

[20:10:08]PAUL CALLAN, FMR. PROSECUTOR, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, they could be admitted because there`s no mother privilege. There is a spousal

privilege. If he were married and saying something privileged to his wife, that would not be admissible. But anything that he says to his mother that

might have been tape-recorded probably would be admissible. Of course, we need more details as to where he was and how these tape recordings were

procured. But I think there will be an argument to admit them.

CEVALLOS: And then Margie, going back to the statements that may have been made about a -- prior complaints, people writing to the school, complaining

about this bus driver -- as a defense attorney, if the prosecution seeks to admit those as evidence, what do you do about that?

MARGIE MOW, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It`s inadmissible. It`s character evidence, and it goes to try to prove that he acted with propensity when he was

driving this time, and that`s inadmissible evidence. So I would challenge that and I would move to have it excluded.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[20:15:04]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do not know for certain if she is with him or not. There`s a high likelihood that she is.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All we know is they have a photo of John Blauvelt`s car, who`s wanted for killing his estranged wife. Hannah was last seen at

this home, which is where Blauvelt lived.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CEVALLOS: A South Carolina man suspected in the death of his wife is on the run, and he may have a missing 17-year-old girl with him. Police say

Hannah Thompson is the girlfriend of accused murderer John Tufted (ph) Blauvelt.

I want to start with Joey Hudson, radio host at WGTK 94.5 in Greenville, South Carolina. Joey, do you have me?

JOEY HUDSON, WGTK (via telephone): Yes, I do.

CEVALLOS: All right. What can you tell us about this case so far?

HUDSON: Well, this case concerns the murder of John Blauvelt`s wife, Catherine. That were estranged at the time. And she was last seen leaving

her place of employment on October the 24th. And friends started a search for her around midnight on the 25th and found her body on the early morning

hours of the 26th in an abandoned house in Simpsonville (ph), South Carolina. Since that time, investigators have issued arrest warrants for

the charges of murder with John Blauvelt, along with another gentleman, Charles Sidney Scott (ph).

CEVALLOS: What more can you tell us about Hannah`s connection with Mr. Blauvelt?

HUDSON: Well, we`re told that they have a relationship, and that this has been going on for quite some time. She`s 17 years old. Mr. Blauvelt is

28. And we`re told by her family that there`s been a relationship. They didn`t realize that it was still ongoing. But her friends have confirmed

that she has been seeing him, unknowingly -- unknowing by her family.

CEVALLOS: All right, I want to take a listen to some -- a statement by Hannah`s dad. Let`s take a look at that now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re terrified. It doesn`t add up. Do not know for certain if she is with him or not. There`s a high likelihood that she is.

We`re dealing with a very unstable individual, and we`re dealing with a 17- year-old that doesn`t quite know what she`s into.

We really desperately want to hear from you and hope you`re safe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CEVALLOS: I want to bring in Chief Keith Morton from the Fountain Inn Police Department. Chief, what has your involvement been with this case so

far?

CHIEF KEITH MORTON, FOUNTAIN INN PD ((via telephone): Well, our involvement has been working closely with the other agencies on the

homicide. Most of our input has been because we were familiar with both the victim and the suspect.

CEVALLOS: What -- so you`re on the missing persons side of the case. What kind of techniques do you usually deploy when you`re first looking for

someone who`s gone missing like this?

MORTON: Well, certainly, we want to talk to everybody that has any information about her, and then we put her in our -- in the NCIC computer,

which is the National Crime Information Computer, so that if she comes in contact with law enforcement anywhere in the country, they`ll be able to

help us bring her home to her family.

CEVALLOS: What about technology, cell phones, Facebook? Do you look at these things, too?

MORTON: Well, yes, we have been. It`s my understanding, though that when John Blauvelt was charged with the murder, or shortly before that, his cell

phone was taken into custody as evidence. And then Hannah`s phone was found in the mailbox by her mom, where she had deleted -- factory (ph)

deleted all the information. So its our understanding that they`re actually using burner phones, which are disposable phones, and there`s

really not a lot of information you can get from them.

CEVALLOS: Chief, what do you think? Do you think Hannah is still with Blauvelt?

MORTON: Well, we don`t have any reason to believe that she`s not. They were last seen together. And she had been in contact with her mom, or

somebody has, texting her, and her mother seems to feel like it`s her. Last time they spoke was the first of November. So we don`t have any

reason to believe that they`re not still together.

CEVALLOS: And have you had the opportunity to look at any of those communications or text messages?

MORTON: Yes, she`s shared those with us. She is -- checks in with her mom just about every day, and has been doing that for some time.

CEVALLOS: What is your gut instinct, Chief? Is Hannah in danger, or is she along on this ride willingly?

MORTON: Well, you know, as a father and as a grandfather and a law enforcement officer for over four decades, it doesn`t seem to be a huge

assumption to think that this child is with a 28-year-old man who is already wanted for the murder of a young woman, that Hannah could

potentially be in harm`s way if she`s still with him.

[20:20:20]We have no reason to believe that she didn`t go willingly, but we don`t know the circumstances now. That`s why we`re hoping that we can make

contact with her and bring her home safely to her family. You know, they`re worried about her.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It doesn`t add up.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her parents say they have been getting texts and occasional phone calls from her, but that all stopped Sunday.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We really desperately want to hear from you and hope you`re safe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CEVALLOS: Hannah Thompson is 17 years old and missing. She`s believed to be in danger and with her boyfriend, John Blauvelt. He`s wanted on

suspicion of killing his estranged wife and is considered armed and dangerous.

[20:25:14]Oh, Chief -- we still have the chief with us here Chief, I have to ask you, what is the connection between John Blauvelt and there`s

another suspect in this case?

MORTON: Yes, apparently, these two guys were buddies in the Army. They were both active, inactive duty at some point in time. John (ph) has been

in the Army for 10 or 12 years. He was currently an army recruiter that was stationed in Greenville, South Carolina, which is about 17 miles north

of us. He`s in custody right now and does not have a bond.

CEVALLOS: And at this point, do you have any evidence that Hannah may have been involved with Catherine Blauvelt`s death?

MORTON: Well, you know, I really can`t get into that because another agency is actually working that case. But I can tell you this, that we`ve

received information that this red 2000 GMC Yukon that belonged to John that they were last seen driving -- we`ve gotten information recently that

they may have painted it gray.

CEVALLOS: All right, Chief. I want to talk with Hannah Thompson`s mother, Kristi. Kristi, I understand Hannah had been living with you before she

went missing, is that true?

KRISTI THOMPSON, MISSING TEEN`S MOTHER (via telephone): Yes.

CEVALLOS: And how long was it after you noticed that she hadn`t come home that you actually went to authorities?

THOMPSON: Oh, we actually -- I was contacted by Hannah the day after she left, and she told me that she had gone to another part of the state. And

then the following day, we were contacted by the Fountain Inn Police Department to come down, and that`s when we found out that she had been in

a relationship with John.

CEVALLOS: Well, let me jump in there for a second. When she told you she was moving, did you ask her where she was moving to or where she was

staying?

THOMPSON: She didn`t contact me until she had already gone -- I`m sorry...

CEVALLOS: That`s OK.

THOMPSON: And she just said that she was staying with a friend in another part of the state and she wanted to start a new chapter in her life.

CEVALLOS: Well, when did you start getting concerned that this just may not be her moving to somewhere else and starting a new chapter?

THOMPSON: The next day, when we were contacted by the police department and they informed us...

CEVALLOS: Yes. Now, I understand you have been getting text messages from someone, either your daughter or someone pretending to be your daughter.

What`s the deal with that?

THOMPSON: I feel like the texts are from Hannah just because of the wording she uses. It sounds like the way she would talk to me in person.

CEVALLOS: What does she tell you?

THOMPSON: She just basically acts like everything is normal, telling me, you know, one day what she had for breakfast, then talking about Christmas

shopping and coming home for Christmas, wanting to see the Christmas tree that we put up, just like everything`s normal.

CEVALLOS: Do you have any idea when she might be coming back?

THOMPSON: She initially said that she would be coming back when she turned 18, which is December 18th. And then she -- it kind of -- she kind of

indicated that it would be Christmastime.

CEVALLOS: I want to ask you about John Blauvelt. Had you met him before this?

THOMPSON: No. We had heard of him, but we had not met him.

CEVALLOS: What was your impression of him?

THOMPSON: Well, there was a little bit of a legal issue with him back in February with him hanging out with some younger kids, around Hannah`s age.

And we found out Hannah was staying at his house with some other people and him, and we contacted the police to try and get her out of the house. And

it`s my belief that at that time is when he was charged with contributing to the delinquency of a minor. And obviously, we did not want her hanging

out with somebody 10 years older than she is.

CEVALLOS: And did you have a conversation with her about that?

THOMPSON: Oh, yes. We made it clear that she was not to be around him, and we believed that she was not around him until just recently.

[20:30:03] CEVALLOS: When you noticed she was gone, did you think that she was with Blauvelt or or did you think she was with somebody else?

THOMPSON: At first, I thought she was telling the truth, that she was with a friend in another part of the state. And then the next day I found out

that was most likely not the case.

CEVALLOS: All right. Thank you, Kristi. I want to bring in my attorneys, Margie Mow and Attorney Paul Callan. Paul, I`ll start with you. As a former

prosecutor, at what point do you decide that somebody is either a kidnap victim or they become an accessory after the fact or an accomplice?

CALLAN: That`s a very difficult decision for law enforcement authorities. Obviously, if she voluntarily went with him, it`s not a kidnapping. The age

of consent, if they`re having a sexual relationship, is 16 in South Carolina, so there`s no crime there.

So you then would have to think is she an accomplice after the fact, helping him escape from a crime of his own. I think their focus is just

going to be reaching out to her and getting her back. I don`t think they`re going to be focused on her as doing something criminal. That`s where law

enforcement usually would function and focus at a point in time like this.

CEVALLOS: And Margie, if you were -- if this young lady is eventually charged with a crime, how would you defend that? How would you approach her

being charged as an accessory?

MOW: Well, the first thing is going back to the initial murder, I don`t think there`s enough evidence to prove that he actually murdered his wife.

I know there was a prior allegation of domestic violence. However, at that point, he used a gun, he didn`t discharge it, he didn`t hurt her, he didn`t

hurt himself, he didn`t hurt anybody.

And it is my understanding that when the body was found, she had been stabbed to death. So first off, I don`t think that he`s this murderer that

everybody is trying to make him out to be. So, I don`t think that a crime has been committed. So, she shouldn`t be charged with any crime. She is not

an accessory.

She ran off with her boyfriend. Her parents were well aware of this relationship for months. And she decided, she took off. She`s communicating

with them. She`s letting them know that she`s well. And she`s also letting them know that she`s going to come home either on her birthday or for

Christmas.

[20:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(START VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Officers were dispatched to a shooting where investigators attempted to identify a possible suspect in the killing of

Laura Abarca and a kidnapping.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 27-year-old Laura Abarca Nogueda was found murdered inside her apartment. Her daughter was not found inside.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CEVALLOS: A Texas woman is accused of pretending she`s pregnant, killing a new mom, and kidnapping the victim`s baby girl. I want to start with

Stephanie Austin, news anchor at 1480 KQAM Radio in Wichita, Kansas. What do you know about this case, Stephanie?

STEPHANIE AUSTIN, NEWS ANCHOR AT 1480 KQAM: It`s a tragic story for our community, but we are so thankful that baby Sophia is back with us safe and

sound. It`s a very odd story. Yesenia Sesmas is accused of killing 27-year- old Laura Abarca Nogueda and kidnapping her newborn daughter and taking her back to Texas.

CEVALLOS: Now, I understand that there is a possible prior incident with this woman. What can you tell me about that?

AUSTIN: That is true. There are local reports that a woman says that Yesenia Sesmas lured her and her two children into a basement last July,

and that Sesmas took away her cell phone and ordered the woman to restrain her children 10 and 3 year old daughters with duct tape.

However, the 10-year-old daughter managed to get back out of the tape, snatched a phone and call police as the two women were fighting. Sesmas was

then booked into jail on several charges, including kidnapping. Then she bonded out and did not show up for her August court date. A warrant was

issued for her arrest, but she could not be found.

CEVALLOS: So when she -- when this incident occurred, there was an open warrant for her arrest, is that what you`re telling us?

AUSTIN: That`s what reports are saying.

CEVALLOS: And so that case is still open. Are there any other prior incidents, arrests or anything that you`ve come across?

AUSTIN: Nothing that`s come to light so far.

CEVALLOS: All right. I want to bring in my attorneys here, my counsel. Margie Mow and Attorney Paul Callan. Paul, if there is a prior similar

incident in this case, how might you, as a former prosecutor, use that if this person is ultimately prosecuted for this killing?

CALLAN: It`s generally hard for a prosecutor to use prior criminal conduct to prove a current case. And the reason is the law sort of has a

presumption that we`re only going to look at the facts of this case. Otherwise, a jury would be prejudiced against anybody with a prior

conviction. But there is an exception.

If your crime is what I call a signature crime. Let`s say that you commit all of your kidnappings or murders in a particular way, and that`s relevant

in this prosecution, you might be able to refer to a past crime. We don`t know enough about the facts at this point to say whether that rule would

apply. But there is a rule that could bring in into evidence.

CEVALLOS: Now, Margie, I want to ask you because as a defense attorney, I feel like this prior acts evidence comes in all the time. What do you say

to police or -- I`m sorry, prosecutors trying to use this prior acts evidence if there was a prior incident?

MOW: Well, one, she wasn`t convicted, so it`s not a prior crime, it`s not a prior conviction. So, I would argue that it`s inadmissible. And second,

it`s not similar.

[20:40:00] I read about that crime, and that crime, as horrible as it was, she didn`t actually kidnap the children, she didn`t murder anyone. So, I

would argue that it`s distinguishable from the case at hand and shouldn`t be used.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(START VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police identifying Yesenia Sesmas for the murder of Laura Abarca. In a jail house interview, Sesmas says, "I was only going to

threaten her if she didn`t hand her over, but the gun went off."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CEVALLOS: The story ended with the kidnapped baby`s rescue, but her mom was killed along the way. Back with me, news anchors Stephanie Austin from 1480

KQAM Radio in Wichita, Kansas, defense attorney Margie Mow, and CNN legal analyst Paul Callan.

[20:45:00] Stephanie Austin, first, I want to go to you and ask you couple of questions here. What can you tell us about a possible motive in this

case?

AUSTIN: According to reports, Sesmas said that they had an agreement, like a pact that Laura Abarca Nogueda said that she would turn over her newborn

daughter to Sesmas, who is unable to have children supposedly, which is a really odd part of this story. That is absolutely not true. And that she

only meant to threaten her with the gun and it accidentally went off.

CEVALLOS: And why are you -- are you hearing why there wasn`t an amber alert issued in this case?

AUSTIN: Yes. In order to have an amber alert, you have to have something that the public can be alerted to. And in this case, so early on, there

were no leads. Police had nothing that they could alert to. There was no suspect at the time.

There was no suspected vehicle that they could put out for an amber alert. So you have to have certain conditions to apply an amber alert and at that

time, early in the case, they just didn`t have those.

CEVALLOS: I want to bring in my attorneys, Margie Mow and Paul Callan. Margie, I have to ask you, in a case like this, will it be a defense if

somebody during a kidnapping says, I didn`t mean to kill them, it was an accident, I was just trying to take a baby away from a mother?

MOW: Well, it`s tough when you put it that way, but I think it is a mitigating circumstance. I don`t believe that there was premeditation in

this case. As she said, it was an accident. She pointed the gun.

Guns can be very dangerous when they`re handled by somebody who doesn`t know how to handle them. So it is a possibility that she thought she was

just going to threaten her, take the baby and flee. However, the gun accidentally went off and now she is facing murder charges.

CEVALLOS: Paul, when it comes to kidnapping, it`s one of those enumerated felonies, that and I don`t know the theory of liability, we just know that

she is charged with murder. But the fact that she accidentally may have shot the mother if this is a murder case.

CALLAN: Give me a break! That`s a defense? First of all, you`re going to a hospital to get a baby with a gun? What are you anticipating? You`re

anticipating you`re going to get into a dispute with the mother. So there`s no defense to this. And she`s going to have a quite a problem in court when

she`s finally tried on this case, if she`s tried on this case.

CEVALLOS: Most people don`t realize that there are a couple of different ways to get to murder, right? I mean, there`s the premeditated kind of

murder, but then there`s committing a felony and having the gun go off.

CALLAN: Well, yeah, there is also this thing about when gun goes off, somebody has to pull the trigger. So, who pulled the trigger? The mother?

And why was the mother grabbing the gun? To protect herself from somebody trying to steal her baby. I don`t think this is much of a difficult pattern

for a prosecutor to present to a jury. I really think the idea of a gun going off accidentally in this context is ridiculous.

CEVALLOS: Margie, what do you say to that? How would you defend this case?

MOW: I disagree. I mean, like I said before, guns can be dangerous handled by the wrong person. They did have an agreement. She was supposed to come

and pick up the child and was distraught when she couldn`t do that, when this woman failed to perform her part of the obligation.

And so, again, I think this was a tragic accident, and the kidnapping is a separate charge. And yes, there`s felony murder. But as far as the gun

going off on its own whether this was premeditated, I completely disagree.

[20:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(START VIDEO CLIP)

STEFAN ZIER, DOG OWNER: Last image that I have of him was him in the groomer`s arm, and unfortunate, bleeding profusely from his mouth.

TERRIE PEACOCK, DOG OWNER: Who anticipates this? You go in for a pedicure and he dies.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CEVALLOS: Henry the dachshund went in for a grooming and he didn`t make it out alive. I got to tell you, this is my mom`s worst nightmare. Now, his

owners are suing PetSmart and the groomer and saying that the groomer intentionally and knowingly killed their beloved puppy.

Let`s look at what happened here. I want to start with Tom Perumean, the editor of advocacyreport.com. Tom, what can you tell us about this case?

TOM PERUMEAN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, EDITOR OF ADVOCACYREPORT.COM: We certainly know it`s a tragedy especially coming up on the Thanksgiving

holiday that this has to happen. It was back in May that Stefan Zier and Terrie Peacock, their three dachshunds, Toni, Ella, and the little 1-year-

old puppy Henry to the San Mateo location of PetSmart, all to have their nails clipped.

From what we understand, the groomer, Juan Zarate, he`s the suspect in this case, first took Toni and when he returned, he told them that Toni the

dachshund had nipped at him and urinated on him and that he was feisty. The couple says that was completely out of character for Toni but they went

ahead and let Henry go in to have his nails clipped.

Zarate took Henry to be clipped and when he returned with Henry, Henry was not moving and he had bloody foam coming out of his mouth and he was

unresponsive. Now, Zier and Peacock rushed Henry over to the Banfield Animal Hospital, and that is a franchise that is inside the PetSmart store,

and there the vet tried to resuscitate Henry, but was unsuccessful and Henry was pronounced dead.

Now, a necropsy was done on Henry and what they say is that Henry`s ribs were compressed. Two of those ribs were in fact crashed and had punctured

Henry`s lungs. So, Zier and Peacock notified authorities.

[20:55:00] They pressed charges against Juan Zarate, the groomer. He is charged with felony animal cruelty. He was being held on $50,000 bail. He

ended up making bail. And the couple is also suing PetSmart and Zarate in civil court.

And they are charging numerous claims of negligence and intentional mistreatment to inflict emotional distress. So we got a whole blown case

going here. That case was supposed to be heard on Monday, but it`s now been delayed until March of next year.

CEVALLOS: Tom, quickly, do we have any word from the groomer, has he given his side of the story or explained what happened with Henry?

PERUMEAN: They have been -- we tried to contact the groomer, other agencies tried to contact the groomer. He`s not speaking. So, you know, he`s a

defendant in two pretty heavy duty cases here, so I wouldn`t expect he`s going to make a statement unless he`s in court.

The interesting thing is, the plaintiff`s attorneys have uncovered numerous complaints against PetSmart groomers from all over the country claiming

that people`s animals have been treated roughly, have been injured, have been hurt. And I mean injured to the point where the animal had to be put

down. So this is a very big mushrooming case.

CEVALLOS: Thank you, Tom. I want to bring in my attorneys, Margie Mow and Paul Callan. Margie, I had a professor in law school who always said to us

that animals, you can love them, you can name them, they can be a member of your family, but they`re not humans and the law doesn`t treat them as

humans.

And yet I started thinking about well, what if there is a self-defense concept against animals. What about the idea that this groomer gets in the

back room, the dog starts to bite. To what degree do people have a right of self-defense against animals?

MOW: You don`t. Just like you mentioned. You don`t have a right to self- defense against animals. This is a very horrific incident. However, it happened very fast. The thing I find striking is that three dogs went in.

The other two weren`t injured at all. It was just this one. How do we know that he didn`t have a prior existing condition?

The other issue is, we really need to look at the practices, procedures, and training processes of PetSmart. Why there are so many claims across the

country. It isn`t a bunch of claims against Zarate.

This is one isolated incident, but there are several claims made against this company. So let`s look at the company and find out what is going on

within PetSmart instead of incarcerating this innocent man.

CEVALLOS: Paul, what do you think about my animal self-defense theory?

CALLAN: Police use it all the time. I mean, police only need -- the courts only require a reasonable belief that a dog is attacking before police use.

CEVALLOS: That`s lethal force.

CALLAN: Let`s just say I can see it being used if say a tiger was attacking a human being. You could shoot the tiger, strangle the tiger, kill the

tiger. This is a very little dachshund. And I don`t think he would pose a threat to you, Mr. Cevallos.

CEVALLOS: Not so fast.

CALLAN: So I will not give you the benefit of the self-defense theory against the little dog.

CEVALLOS: So you`re saying there`s a line that we draw in the law between - - somewhere between pitbull, mastiff and then toy poodle where at some point a dog can`t cause you any harm or be dangerous?

CALLAN: What I`m saying is that the threat has to be a reasonable threat for you to defend yourself in such an aggressive way. Remember, the dog

autopsy here seems to indicate that the dog`s ribs were crushed, as if somebody crushed them.

So, you know, it doesn`t sound to me like that`s somebody protecting themselves. It sounds to me like that`s somebody deliberately torturing an

animal. So I say that Cevallo`s self defense theory will crash and burn in this case.

CEVALLOS: Well, I disagree, and that`s why I`m going to Margie. Margie, can I ask you, how do you think these prior complaints are gonna factor in

either the civil or criminal suits? I mean, the complaints against the company.

MOW: I think that they definitely are a very huge factor in the civil case. It`s something that should be looked at. But I also think that Zarate`s

defense attorney should also look at them in defending him. And bringing in, you know, these other allegations. The company is well aware that other

complaints have been made nationwide and clearly has not done enough to try to prevent these types of incidents from happening.

CEVALLOS: All right. Thank you, Paul Callen and Margie Mow. Thank you, Tom Perumean. Thank you all for watching. I`m Danny Cevallos. We`ll see you

back here Monday night at 8:00 for Primetime Justice. Forensic Files starts right now.

[21:00:00]

END