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Former Cuban Leader Fidel Castro Dies at 90; Cuba's Economy in Poor Shape; Searching for New Solutions in Cuba. Aired 3-4a ET
Aired November 26, 2016 - 03:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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RAUL CASTRO, PRESIDENT OF CUBA (through translator): Following the explicit desires of leader Fidel, his remains will be cremated in the early hours of tomorrow, Saturday, 26th of November.
The Organizing Commission of the Funerals will give our people detailed in fn about the organization of the posthumous tribute that we will give you to the founder of the Cuban revolution. Until victory, always.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE HOWELL, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Raul Castro there, giving the news in Cuba. Let's go to our own dedicated correspondent on the ground, live this hour in Havana, Cuba. CNN's Patrick Oppmann is standing by.
Patrick, you told us just an hour ago that, as the news is spreading and we are seeing celebrations in some places, in Havana, people are just starting to learn the news and many people learned the news from you?
PATRICK OPPMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. We found out about it as it was announced. Came to the office very quickly, asked Cubans along the way if they heard the news, no one I encountered on the street had. There were the futurally aptly (ph) MPs. It was quite late, almost 11:00 pm, when the news was released here by Raul Castro.
I encountered people listening to government radio stations and the news hadn't been broken there. And watching Cuban TV the last few hours I have not seen the news repeated. People in my office say it's been repeated once or twice.
A lot of the news sites here have not been updated. So there really is sort of a surreal sense that the news is not being spread broadly. That will change. But a number of my friends who are Cuban journalists did not know. It is very clear that Raul Castro and the hierarchy of the Cuban government kept this as a very closely guarded secret. They wanted to announce it here. They did not want it leaking in Washington or Miami ahead of time. So around the world, people are scrambling in reaction to this news.
And certainly here in Havana, but I can tell you that some of the other staff in my office came a little bit later after me, did say they saw a military presence on the streets that I did not see that was just not there.
So there's a sense that the island is getting ready for a funeral for Fidel Castro. Certainly a show of authority and strength by Raul Castro to make sure the that opponents to his government don't try to challenge him in these days.
And there are scenes of celebration. But I suspect as people wake up in the morning, in just a few hours, they will learn of the news and we will have a whole variety of reactions.
This is a man whose shadow for a very long time was omnipresent in Cuba. He was someone who had an impact on millions of people's lives. Many people, of course, fled Cuba to escape from communism.
Many people are still devoted followers and many Cubans that I have talked to are wondering, what now?
How will this affect your lives?
How will this affect U.S.-Cuban relations?
Is there more hope for change in Cuba now that Fidel Castro has passed away.
CYRIL VANIER, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Patrick Oppmann, stay with us.
And, George, I just really want to put this question to Rafael Romo, our CNN correspondent, who is on the set with us and who's covering this with us.
I want to get your sense on this because Patrick was making it very clear -- some people will wake up tomorrow morning and find out about this several hours after we found out. And it is obviously their country and their lives.
Can you give us any kind of sense, bring us into their heads and into those conversations that will be happening that breakfast table tomorrow morning as some Cubans wake up and find out the news?
RAFAEL ROMO, CNN SR. LATIN AFFAIRS EDITOR: So the point has been made and before that when you go to Cuba and you talk to the people, you never really know if they are telling you the truth because the reality is that one of the community watchers that the government has may be just a couple of steps away, listening in to what they are telling you.
So you never really know if they are being completely honest with you. Patrick will tell you that. Any other correspondent who has spent any time in Cuba will tell you that. People can lose their jobs if they say something wrong or even if they are perceived to be a little too friendly with somebody they don't know. (CROSSTALK)
VANIER: But the conversations will be taking place behind closed doors, right, I mean, within family circles?
ROMO: Yes, definitely. We also have to remember that there's a very healthy, if not numerous, opposition in Cuba. People who have -- some would argue heroically -- have opposed the regime for many, many years.
People who have spent time in jail, people who defied the government from time to time, only to be stopped on the street by the military forces, to be beaten up, to be -- have their government payment stopped but they are still there.
[03:05:00]
ROMO: And so my assumption -- and, again, we can only assume at this hour because it's not a new day yet -- is that there will be some rejoicing from those people. But, again, from the mainstream Cuba, you won't be able to see a lot of that because it is still very dangerous to express your opinions.
VANIER: And that will be hidden from public view.
ROMO: It'll be very well hidden.
HOWELL: And let's bring in CNN's Patrick Oppmann just to talk a bit about that from your time covering Cuba.
Your conversations with people.
Do you get the sense that sometimes people are just a little concerned to give their frank feelings about this former leader?
OPPMANN: Absolutely. When I first came here in the 1990s, 20 years ago, when people talked about Fidel Castro, they wouldn't say his name. They would go like this, the movement of a beard, someone stroking a beard and that's changed.
Now people are a little bit more open; not critical but you can have certain conversations you couldn't have when I first came here. There is a lot of double speak. Any kind of representation of Fidel Castro is very tightly controlled.
I talked to his son just a few months ago, Alex Castro, who is a photographer who has documented the final years of Fidel Castro's life.
And I said, why doesn't your father have more statues of him like there are of Che Guevara, that are revolutionary leaders?
And his answer was -- obviously his point of view -- he said my father is a very simple man, he's a revolutionary. He doesn't want that. But it is much more subtle, I think, because when you are a child in Cuban school, of course you have to go to government school. That's the only schools Cuban children are allowed to go to.
You have to memorize all of -- many of the speeches, his school of thought, his life. He's the most important historical figure Cuban children are taught. So it really is a sense of monuments being built in people's heads, not quite brainwashing but this is someone who has really become the center of life for many, many years in Cuba. You heard his speeches on the radio.
Even tonight, we are seeing many of his appearances played again. That's not unusual for Cuba. So I think for the government, Fidel Castro has been the main rallying tool they've used over the years to keep loyalty to the government because so many people in the beginning had respect, admiration, even love for him.
But over the years with the economic difficulties, that really has changed. I think for the government there has to be a sense that there will be a lot less passion for this government and that there -- certainly the most important figure of the revolution, a man who, if he had not been born, would be a very different place.
That with his passing, it marks the end of a chapter. I just keep going back to this. Every Cuban I talked to -- and I've told them this -- they just change physically and you see that they would be able to remember for the rest of their lives when they learned this news. It is just that big of an event here. And those kinds of scenes will be going on in the hours to come.
HOWELL: Patrick Oppmann, live for us in Havana, Cuba, our dedicated correspondent there on the ground and live this hour.
Patrick, stay with us. We will be back with you to talk further throughout the hours.
Let's talk more about Fidel Castro. His death is stirring a mix of reactions and emotions, love, for instance, from the president of Venezuela, who tweeted the following, "I just talked with President Raul Castro to transmit the solidarity and love for Cuba before the departure of Commander Fidel Castro."
So love from Maduro but at the same time, on the streets of Miami, a very different scene. Here's what some people are saying this hour.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE). It's a moment I have been waiting for more than 55 years. We are free at last. I mean, the man that caused so much suffering and so much people to be sad in my country, already passed away. The dictatorship -- the (INAUDIBLE) dictatorship in our continent is now -- I mean, Fidel's dead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is freedom. This is everything for your people. This is a huge change for a community. And I think a lot of things, good things, are coming for us. And there are good things are coming for this country, for the relationship between us and for the peace and the love that we always had in our country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VANIER: And Glenn Garvin is joining us now on the phone from Orlando, Florida. He's a reporter with the "Miami Herald."
Glenn, first thing, your reaction?
GLENN GARVIN, "MIAMI HERALD": Well, I know this sounds improbable but I'm pretty surprised. As it happens, I'm the "Miami Herald" reporter who wrote the newspaper's obituary on Fidel Castro. I can tell you that thing has been sitting around for 15 years now.
[03:10:00]
GARVIN: Honestly, it began to appear to us that he would never die.
VANIER: That is something that we have been hearing also from other Cubans, whether it was in Cuba or whether it was in Miami that Fidel Castro was immortal.
But as you were saying, on the other hand, I assume there's the professional side of this for you, which is that you have had this sitting on your desk for a long time.
GARVIN: Yes. Well, I don't want to say I was sitting around breathlessly, cheering on someone's impending death but it did seem very odd. The obituary was written in the summer of 2001, when Castro had a fainting spell, fell down some steps, broke a couple of bones.
And it really seemed that, after many false alarms about the state of his health over the years, that maybe he was in the end game.
But that end game lasted 15 years. But my "Miami Herald" colleague, Andro Sopenheimer (ph), wrote a book called "Castro's Final Hours." That book was published, gosh, 25 years ago. So those final hours stretched a long time.
VANIER: Yes and as you describe that, that begs the question, what does it change for Cuba now?
Because as you say, if the passing of Fidel Castro had happened 10 years ago or even earlier, then there might have been seismic change for the country.
But is that going to be the case?
His brother is now running the country and has been doing so for a decade.
GARVIN: Well, you raise a really interesting point, I think. We used to always assume -- I say we, I mean, journalists, people who follow Cuba, we always assumed that when Fidel Castro died, there would be immediate and tumultuous change in Cuba.
People forecast gunfire in the streets; maybe the army would divide against itself. There would be pro-liberalization people and anti- liberalization people. There would be years and years of pent-up, frustrated ambitions on the parts of less senior Cuban officials that would suddenly break into the open.
VANIER: And now that it has happened?
GARVIN: Well, what happened is we really had really kind of a slow- motion transition that nobody recognized as a transition for a while. In 2006, Fidel Castro became ill. There was a sort of two-year twilight zone there and then one day we woke up and he was no longer the leader.
Meanwhile, his brother, Raul, who, it must be said, for a long time, was not a well-known figure and thought to be mostly a non-entity in Cuba, was actually in control. And I think that will remain now. There will not be some big, shocking transition. Raul may feel now a little more freedom to maneuver.
Though Fidel Castro hasn't really been much in control or even seemingly very lucid the last seven or eight years. He was still sitting there; he could still -- he was still -- I don't think that anyone doubted he could create a fuss if he chose to do that. Now, at last, that possibility is 100 percent removed.
So Raul has a little bit more freedom to do as he chooses but you won't see an abrupt change. If you do, it will be on the American side. President-Elect Trump was -- you know, spoke very negatively of the U.S. rapprochement with Cuba during the last two weeks of his campaign.
If he follows through, if he reverses all of President Obama's executive orders that will set U.S. relations with Cuba to where they were the past 50 years.
VANIER: Yes. And we will have to see what happens with that, of course. It is all unknown right now, a lot of unknowns as to what Trump's policy vis-a-vis with Cuba might be, the president-elect. A lot of unknowns as to what may go on in Havana.
But you are one of the many guests that we have had on this evening who have been saying -- and the majority of guests and contributors have been saying there's not going to be a whole lot of change in Havana. They have been preparing this -- for this a number of years. All right, thank you very much.
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GARVIN: Yes.
VANIER: Glenn Garvin, "Miami Herald" reporter, thank you very much. We appreciate it.
HOWELL: So let's just dig more into the background here. We are getting some reaction on Twitter to Castro's death.
The president of Venezuela, Nicolas Maduro, saying that he called Cuba's current leader, who is Fidel's brother, Maduro saying on Twitter, "I just talked to President Raul Castro to transmit my solidarity and love -- [03:15:00]
HOWELL: "-- for the Cuban people upon the departure of Commander Fidel Castro."
And also India's prime minister, Narendra Modi, saying, "I extend my deepest condolences to the government and people of Cuba on the sad demise of Fidel Castro. May his soul rest in peace."
VANIER: Fidel Castro was one of the most iconic personalities of the 20th century. India mourns the loss of a great friend.
HOWELL: CNN will continue to follow the breaking news here, the death of Fidel Castro at 90 years old. Stay with us.
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VANIER: If you're just joining us let's recap our breaking news: former Cuban leader Fidel Castro has died. His life has been shrouded in secrecy for years now as he avoided the public eye more and more as he aged.
HOWELL: There have been rumors of his death for many years, often only to be quickly dispelled. But we can say with certainty at this hour that Fidel Castro has died in Havana at 90 years old.
You can't tell the story of the 20th century, quite frankly, without this name that has been in the history books -- Fidel Castro, again, dead at 90 years old. Castro's death is stirring up mix of reactions and emotions around the world. Here, though, are what people are saying on the streets of Havana.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): It's a normal part of life. It's the news that one is not ready to receive, even less of the commander.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): For the entire world, for everyone in the situation, it's something very painful. I have just learned about this news.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I am sad, regardless he was a public figure that everyone loved and respected. So I feel bad.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VANIER: Under Fidel Castro's watch, Cuba was not always a welcome place to some of the world's foremost leaders. But things started changing in recent years under Fidel's brother, Raul.
Pope Francis visited in September 2015 and called on the Communist nation to, quote, "open itself to the world." He praised one major step in that direction, restoring diplomatic ties with the United States.
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VANIER (voice-over): That decision led to another historic visit, this one by U.S. President Barack Obama; that was eight months ago. For decades the country had been closed to Americans and look at this, a holdover -- well, that's not the holdover from the Cold War.
The country being closed to Americans, that's the holdover. But this picture, Obama's visit, well, that marked progress above all, a new way of doing things in a new era. Both the U.S. and Cuba shut the door on a long-standing feud and opened their own doors to one another.
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HOWELL: Let's bring in CNN correspondent Rafael Romo, who is here live on the set. Rafael has many years of experience covering geopolitics of Latin America.
And just talk to us about, first of all, the implications, knowing that this very --
[03:20:00]
HOWELL: -- formative leader of Cuba is dead.
ROMO: When you think of what will happen next, a lot of people are trying to figure out what is next for Cuba. The reality is that, 10 years ago, when Fidel Castro first got sick and he had his brother, Raul, take power, that's when the succession plan started.
If you take a look at the new congress, the Communist congress in Cuba, all of the new leaders, albeit younger, follow the exact same political persuasion. So for those people who think that the Castro death may mean an overnight change in terms of the regime or politics of Cuba, it may take a bit longer than that because the reality is that a lot of the young people of Venezuela (sic) have been indoctrinated on this type of political persuasion from the time they go to elementary school.
And I was a little mentioning earlier, the case of Elian Gonzalez, if you remember, back -- it was actually Thanksgiving Day 1999 when he was found alive after a number of Cuban migrants, including his mother, had died, trying to get to the United States.
Several months later, go to June 2000, he is sent back to Cuba. And last October, we did a story on him. And now he is about to finish college. He's one of the most known figures in Cuba, a spokesperson for the revolution, clearly indoctrinated and he is about to join in the military.
So that gives you an idea of the kind of information, propaganda, that Cuban young people grew up with. They always hear the same thing. Patrick Oppmann was telling us before that, from first grade, starting in elementary, they hear that the greatest historical figure in the world has been Fidel Castro.
And that's what they hear year after year after year. And so all those people composing the congress, the Communist congress in Cuba, follow, like I said before, the same political persuasion.
VANIER: But you know, Rafael, as I hear you explain that to us, the question it raises for me is how long can the system continue as is in Cuba?
I understand that the politics of Cuba are bigger than one man.
But when that person casts such a long shadow over the entire contemporary history of a country and he passes away, there comes a point -- and his brother is elderly now. There comes a point where the system doesn't perpetuate itself as much or if at all when the founder is gone.
ROMO: A lot of people thought the system was going to collapse under its own weight after the USSR collapsed in the early 1990s. What happened was that there was this period that Cuba calls a special period, in which Cubans were asked to ration their food, to minimize their consumption.
And then in comes Hugo Chavez from Venezuela with all of the oil in the world and with a lot of money to give and essentially Cuba was rescued and the Cuban system was rescued by Venezuela. So it gave oxygen to the Cuban regime for another 10, 15 years.
The reason why they are still there is one big factor was that Hugo Chavez was in power. But the reality is that change happens very, very slowly in Cuba because that was precisely Fidel Castro's decision from the beginning of the revolution.
HOWELL: We are talking about a historic moment, the death of Fidel Castro. While we are talking about it -- and if our director is able to bring up the live images if we have them in Miami -- we are seeing people celebrating in the streets. We are seeing history happen right now. Many in Miami who are relieved, who are thrilled to hear the news and to see the headline that the former leader is dead at 90 years old -- Rafael.
ROMO: And I can't stop thinking about -- I have many friends who are Cuban American, who were born in this country but their parents had to flee Cuba because of the Castro regime.
I cannot stop thinking about those people, people who came to the United States in the late '60s, in the early '70s, and thought they would be here for a few years. They said Castro cannot stay in power forever. After that happens we are going to go back and raise our children back in Cuba.
That never happened. And all of those people who died waiting, that's what happened in reality and who now have children who are Americans and who are seeing this and trying to understand what's happening and what's going to happen in the future with Cuba is just amazing.
HOWELL: Rafael, look at this. We are looking --
[03:25:00]
HOWELL: -- at this aerial image just outside of the Versailles restaurant. I have been there. You've been there. We have covered stories and we've spoken to people. It is a place where people gather to talk politics on Calle Ocho.
And look at that crowd and look at the many people that are showing up at 3:25 in the morning, people who heard this news and came together to gather and celebrate.
ROMO: What we hear is people banging pots and pans but in the background, every so often, you hear the same chant, "libertad, libertad, freedom, freedom." It is something you have heard in Miami from the exile community for decades.
This is nothing new. This is something that people have been talking about. This is something that people have been dreaming about for a long, long time. There are radio stations in Miami dedicated to this, dedicated to speaking about the fall of Fidel Castro and I can only imagine that all of those people must be celebrating right now as we see these images from Miami, from Calle Ocho.
VANIER: But just to be clear, I understand the emotional impact of this, given the personality and the mark on history that Fidel Castro would have left, regardless of what you think of him, regardless of the politics. But the people who are in the street right now, presumably they are not looking for substantive change in the short term.
ROMO: They would certainly hope so. I can tell you that. They would certainly hope that --
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VANIER: But in terms of realistic expectations...
ROMO: Realistic expectations and I'm of the opinion it is going to take some time for Cuba to see real change. And we were talking to a columnist from the "Miami Herald," who would like to think otherwise but agrees with the same assessment, that it is going to take a long time before we see real change in Cuba.
VANIER: All right, Rafael Romo, CNN correspondent, thank you very much.
We will go to break. We continue our rolling coverage of the breaking news, the death of Fidel Castro, age 90, late leader of Cuba -- just after this.
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VANIER: Welcome back to our breaking news coverage on CNN. A towering figure of the 20th century has died. Fidel Castro, the man who led Cuba for half a century, is dead at the age of 90. He came to power in 1959; with a small band of revolutionaries he overthrew an unpopular dictator and rode tanks and Jeeps into Cuba's capital, Havana.
HOWELL: And for decades after that, he ruled Cuba with an iron fist, creating a one-party state and bringing the Cold War to the Western Hemisphere and aligning his country with the Soviet Union and also denouncing the United States.
[03:30:00]
He swept away capitalism in Cuba, expanded education and health care there but he also clamped down on religious and political freedoms in Cuba. He banned free speech in Cuba and executed or jailed thousands of political opponents.
VANIER: Patrick Oppmann is joining us live from Havana. The CNN correspondent in Cuba.
Of course, you find ourselves in this peculiar situation. You have been the one for the last three hours or so, more often than not, breaking this news to Cubans. What's going on now?
OPPMANN: That often happens with international events but it's really the first time that I remember in five years of living and reporting here that I was informing Cubans of such a massive event, that has such implications and creates such emotions for them.
Most people just sort of froze. You could tell that they would remember for the rest of their lives how they learned this. In the last half hour or so, we have seen more live reporting on Cuban TV and online about the death, informing Cubans. Now at this late hour about the death of Cuban leader Fidel Castro. So I think many people will wake up to only then learning the news, if they are not getting calls from relatives in Miami. We're already aware of course this is an island where many people do not have Internet still. So it is a bit of an information vacuum.
But again, when people have learned about this, there's so much emotion. This is a day they have really lived with, expecting and to have it finally come, even though Castro was so ill, 90 years old. But for so many years there were the false reports. This is a man who survived dozens of assassination attempts against him.
And in Miami, when I lived in Miami, there was the sort of black joke that he was immortal until proven otherwise. That has happened in the last hours, as finally the news that was rumored for so many years and disproven has been proven that Fidel Castro has died. And certainly when the sun comes up in the Cuban capital just a few hours behind me, it will be a very different day here in Havana. HOWELL: Patrick, we are certainly getting reaction around the world. But right there, in Havana, I know that your team is on the ground, gathering reactions, getting information. But talk to us just about the plan in place.
What happens in the coming day?
We understand that the former leader will be cremated?
OPPMANN: Yes. Raul Castro, tonight, in the short statement that he read, announcing his brother's death. Fidel Castro was called the historic leader of the revolution and Raul Castro said that Fidel Castro would be cremated as were his wishes and that planning is beginning for a state funeral.
Typically when there is a tragic event or someone who's been a revolutionary icon here like Fidel Castro was that you see sort of forced mourning across the country. And I can tell you that when Hugo Chavez died, who was a very close friend with Cuba, at my children's school they wouldn't let them sing and bars and restaurants are closed and nothing is allowed that would show any kind of celebrations or happiness.
And these moments, I was here when Che Guevara, the revolutionary, was brought back and hundreds of thousands of people, whether they wanted to or whether they were told to, had to march past his coffin so you will see these large-scale events of mourning.
When Fidel Castro swept into power, many people loved him because he had forced a hated dictator out. But over the years people have lost, many people have lost hope and faith. For many of the Cubans I spoke with on the phone or have seen their posts on social media now, there is not ambivalence but exhaustion.
And they really want to know how this improves their future and if this will lead to something better because Cuba has suffered through so much. There's still U.S. economic sanctions on this island. The economy is in very poor shape and many people want to hear new ideas, new solutions to problems that have now existed for many decades of Fidel Castro's revolution.
HOWELL: But at this hour and several hours after learning this news on the streets of Havana, a sense of quiet, as people start to understand this very important fact that has happened, that the former leader of Cuba has died at 90 years old. Patrick Oppmann, CNN's dedicated correspondent in Havana, live with us and Patrick will be with us throughout the next few hours, throughout the next few days, I'm sure.
Patrick thank you for your reporting. Stay with us.
VANIER: And we have been getting over the last three hours the reaction with Patrick in Cuba --
[03:35:00] VANIER: -- the reaction in Miami. Over the next 24 hours, we will get you as the world wakes up to this news, the reaction across the world. CNN's Matt Rivers is joining us from Beijing.
Matt, it would be very interesting to know if there has been any official reaction in Beijing at this very early stage. There might not have been yet.
If not, how do you think this will go down where you are?
MATT RIVERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, no official reaction from the Chinese government yet or state media. Typically we see these things come out in Chinese state media, where the media outlets here, all run by the government, will post a generic statement. And that's what we can expect when that happens.
I think you will hear the Chinese government give a relatively favorable view, probably speak very, very nicely about Fidel Castro. But if this happened 30, 440 years ago, that may not have been the case. Even though both countries were Communist countries, they both went through revolutions in the middle part of the 20th century, China and Cuba did not have the best relationship for a long time.
In fact, they didn't establish formal diplomatic ties until 1993. It was an interview in the late '70s that Fidel Castro gave that he said while he agreed with Chairman Mao Zedong, the founder of Communist China, he agreed with him a lot on the ideological standpoint.
But he said that Mao's cult of personality, Mao's ego was actually very detrimental for the Chinese and he was actually very critical of Chairman Mao and that at that time was certainly not a way to get diplomatic ties with China.
But in 1993, things eased; diplomatic relations were formally established between both sides. And since then, what you have seen is a Cuban economy that has come to increasingly rely on the Chinese economy.
In fact, last year, China was the single largest -- largest single country trading partner with Cuba. In fact, only the European Union collectively had a bigger total trade value with Cuba.
So the fact today China and Cuba have a much better relationship. It was in September that the second in charge here, Premier Li Keqiang, actually went and visited Fidel Castro in his home. That was in late September.
And it was just two years ago that Xi Jinping actually made a visit to Cuba himself, visiting with Fidel Castro. So it was a very interesting relationship, one that has evolved over the course of Fidel Castro's life in Cuba, what started out very hostile, frankly, between the two countries, even though they were ideologically similar, really evolved over time and the economics of the relationship made it a much friendlier one over the last 20 years or so.
VANIER: Matt Rivers, thank you very much, Matt Rivers there in Beijing with the China-Cuba relations.
It will be very interesting to see how every country reacts to this. The death of one of the most prominent figures of 20th century history, into 21st century especially because the way countries react is linked to their own internal and domestic politics.
So in China, run by the Communist Party, it's interesting to see how they are reacting but they have had ambivalent reactions as ambivalent relations with Raul Castro, as Matt Rivers was telling us.
Now we want to show you the last public photo taken of Fidel Castro, it was November 15th, that makes it just 10 days ago in Havana. He was meeting at the time with Vietnamese president, Tran Dai Quang.
HOWELL: We are bringing you reaction from around the world this hour. Let's bring now Kishore Mahbubani. He is a former ambassador to the U.N. from Singapore and is now live on the line here on CNN from Singapore.
Sir, thank you for being with us. You met with Fidel Castro in person. First of all, talk to us about that meeting. Before that, though, give us your reaction to what happened here.
KISHORE MAHBUBANI, FORMER SINGAPORE AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: Well, I met him in 1979 in Cuba. This was during the non-align (ph) meeting and what was interesting about that time was that Singapore and Cuba were on exactly the opposite sides. Cuba was a friend of the Soviet Union. And Singapore was a friend of the United States.
And quite remarkably -- and so we -- actually, to be completely candid, Singapore and Cuba had a very big fight in 1979 in Cuba. But this fight, the decades of fighting, we ended up actually becoming friends because we respected each other and certainly there's a lot of respect for Fidel Castro as a leader globally.
HOWELL: At the same time, though, a very different scene we are seeing in places like Miami. There are many people who hated Fidel Castro, who called him a dictator, who called him a person who murdered families, imprisoned people.
MAHBUBANI: Yes. I think if you look at Fidel Castro through the lens of Miami, you see it through a very distorted lens.
[03:40:00]
MAHBUBANI: There's one way simple statistic I give to people, which is that 7.3 billion people on planet Earth and about 3 percent -- or 12 percent of them maybe live in the West and 88 percent live outside the West. And for the 88 percent who live outside the West, who watch the story of Cuba and this amazing small country that was able to stand up for decades to the most powerful country in the world, it was a David and Goliath fight and everyone expected David to be crushed and David kept surviving.
And that's why there's a lot of global admiration for Fidel Castro, even among those who didn't agree with his ideas. HOWELL: Mr. Mahbubani, I will have to, with all due respect, push back on the polling suggestion. It is still unclear, certainly there are people who did appreciate the former leader and there are those who hated him as well.
But I'd like to get your thoughts, your personal reaction. You have met the man.
When you heard this news, sir, what did you feel?
What were you thinking?
MAHBUBANI: Well, I mean, the -- certainly he is a very charismatic figure. Wherever he went, I mean, people treated him with a great amount of respect. I actually visited his brother's farm outside Havana and I saw how ordinary Cubans were living.
And they seemed to be quite happy from the people that I met over there. I must emphasize that I don't agree with the views, I'm not a Communist; I don't agree with the views of a Communist society.
But it is nonetheless a fact that the poor people in Cuba were much better off than the poor people in most spots of Latin America. And Cuba was actually exporting doctors and medical services to countries in Africa. And it's amazing that it could do that.
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VANIER: Sir, is that still the case?
Is that still the --
MAHBUBANI: Sorry?
VANIER: Is that still the case?
You are telling us that the poor people of Cuba were much better off than the people in other countries in Latin America.
Is that still the case?
Does that still hold true?
MAHBUBANI: Well, they have had a very rough time in recent years and frankly Cuba should have collapsed when the Cold War ended because when the Soviet Union collapsed, as you know, a lot of pro-Soviet regimes in East Europe collapsed.
And as I expected Cuba to collapse, too. And I was quite stunned that it didn't do so. And I said, wow, that's a really remarkable regime that could lose the support of its patron and keep on going. That showed the resilience of the man and of a system that he created.
HOWELL: At the same time, so, Cuba has not collapsed; there are many people in America, in Miami, specifically, who are not happy with the fact that relations have improved. MAHBUBANI: But I must emphasize to you that Miami is a very distorted lens. This is a small group, people obviously left --
HOWELL: Well, with all due respect, sir, and I just have to push back against --
MAHBUBANI: -- if you use Miami to judge Cuba, of course, you are going to get a negative.
HOWELL: I do have to -- I do have to gently push back against the idea that it is a small group, because, again, when we see these live images in Miami. You do see many, many people on the streets who have a different take. It's important also to bring your take in, as well.
I want to ask you, sir, as we see this happening in Miami, as we see people starting to get the news in Cuba, what are your thoughts moving forward now that a new U.S. president will be coming in and will be dealing with Raul Castro without the shadow of Fidel Castro?
MAHBUBANI: Yes, well, I think it is very important to carry on the policy of engagement that President Obama has talked about. I think that is a wise policy because I think the United States tried sanctions and isolation for over 50 years. And ironically that helped the regime to survive.
So if you really want to engineer change in Cuba and you want to actually bring about a more open society, the best way to achieve a more open society in Cuba is to follow President Obama's policy and engage Cuba and not isolate.
Once you open up Cuba, once you send in thousands and thousands of tourists, then it will change the chemistry of the society dramatically.
HOWELL: The former Singapore ambassador to the United Nations, Kishore Mahbubani, on the line with us. Sir, we really appreciate you being with us and lending your voice to this. We may come back to you as we continue to cover this so please stand by with us.
For our viewers here in the U.S. and around the world, again, the breaking news this hour, Fidel Castro, dead at the age of 90 years old. Breaking news coverage continues right after the break.
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[03:45:00]
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VANIER: Rolling coverage of the passing of Fidel Castro here on CNN. I'm Cyril Vanier with my colleague, George Howell.
On two things about Fidel Castro there can be no doubt: he was in power for a very long time and feelings about him, as we've been seeing in our coverage for the last three hours, were very mixed. Here's Martin Savidge with a look back at Castro's life and how he transformed Cuba over the decades.
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MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Depending on whom you talk to, Fidel Castro was a revered revolutionary legend or a despised tyrannical dictator. There is little middle ground.
Castro came to power in 1959 in a widely popular revolution overthrowing Cuba's then-dictator Fulgencio Batista. The new government quickly gained the recognition of the United States but it wasn't long before the bearded rebel's leftist ideology put him on a collision course with America.
Especially when he allied himself with the Soviet Union, seeing a new threat just 90 miles offshore, the U.S. decided to act.
JOHN F. KENNEDY, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have directed the armed forces to...
SAVIDGE (voice-over): First launching a trade embargo, followed by the failed CIA-backed Bay of Pigs invasion and several assassination attempts on Castro, all this while the Cuban leader allowed the Soviet Union to secondly build nuclear missile bases on the island.
When they were discovered by the U.S. in 1962, the so-called Cuban missile crisis brought the world to the brink of nuclear war. As Castro turned more and more to Socialism, thousands of his well-to-do Cubans fled the country.
The millions left behind became part of his new social experiment, a one-party Communist state, led by one man -- himself.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): He imposed the idea that those who didn't like it could leave. He divided families.
SAVIDGE (voice-over): Many saw positives, education and health care for all, racial integration.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): What Fidel achieved in the social order of this country has not been achieved by any poor nation and even by many rich countries, despite being submitted to enormous pressures.
SAVIDGE (voice-over): But critics say it came at a terrible cost.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The dreams of freedom that had given the Cuban people were turned into the nightmare we live today because we have a totalitarian regime in which all basic liberties have been abolished.
SAVIDGE (voice-over): What Castro never managed to achieve was economic prosperity, even with years of subsidies from the Soviet Union. For that, Castro always blamed the United States and its embargo but many blame the man himself, pointing to his unwavering belief in an outdated and inefficient Socialist model.
Castro had little tolerance for dissent. Opponents were often dismissed as traitors, imprisoned or exiled. As more and more dissidents ended up under arrest, Castro became the target of international condemnation. But like so many times before, Castro never backed down, proudly defending his record on human rights.
FIDEL CASTRO, CUBAN LEADER (through translator): There hasn't been a single case of death squads here. Never has a person disappeared in Cuba, which has been common practice all over Latin America. So we feel proud of our clean record with relation to this problem.
SAVIDGE (voice-over): Call it pride or selective reasoning --
[03:50:00]
SAVIDGE (voice-over): -- but Castro never lost faith in the revolution. Opponents concede Castro's popularity diminished as his beard grew whiter. But his intelligence and shrewdness continued to command fear and respect.
He would eventually outlive many of his critics and outlast 10 U.S. administrations. In the end, it was illness, not Washington, that forced him to retire, passing Cuba's leadership to his younger brother, Raul.
In his last years, Castro appeared only occasionally, mostly in photos, looking frail. At times he tried to play the role of elder statesman but more and more he seemed inconsequential.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): The Cuban government has been very agile. It has slowly removed him from the scene. It would have been one thing if he had abruptly died back on July 31st, 2006. Instead, his image and importance have slowly faded.
SAVIDGE (voice-over): Castro always insisted death was not something he feared.
FIDEL CASTRO (through translator): I have never been afraid of death and I have never been concerned about death. I have learned not to feel attached to positions and not to be attached to that which is called power.
SAVIDGE (voice-over): That latter statement seems ironic, coming from a man who almost single-handedly dictated over Cuba for nearly half a century.
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HOWELL: Martin Savidge there reporting for us. Thank you.
Let's bring in CNN's Rafael Romo again; has been coverage the geopolitics of Latin America for many years.
Let's just talk about the situation in Cuba as it is now for people.
What's the latest from Human Rights Watch?
And what are the facts and figures?
ROMO: Yes, it's a very good question, essentially based on what our previous guest was telling us, that a lot of people the world admire Fidel Castro.
But what Human Rights Watch says -- and this is the most recent report -- is the Cuban government continues to repress dissent and discourage public criticism. It now relies less on long-term prison sentences to punish its critics but short-term, arbitrary arrests of human rights offenders, independent journalists and others have increased dramatically in recent years.
Other repressive tactics -- listen to this -- employed by the government include beatings, public acts of shaming and the termination of employment. We were talking about this before, how if anybody dare say anything that might be perceived not threatening but unfriendly to the government, they may lose whatever benefits they can get under the government.
Our previous guest was talking about the fact that Cuba sends its doctors to all four corners of the world.
My question is, at what cost?
If you are a doctor in Cuba, you are essentially a slave and you work at the pleasure of the government, where the government wants you to work, in whatever conditions the government wants you to work in for anywhere from $20 to $30 a month. So we also have to look at the cost.
And the cost in terms of many lives that had to flee, many people who have to flee over the decades, millions of Cubans, who, either because they were hungry or because they were the victims of political repression, that have to leave. And I would suggest, again, our previous guest to talk to any of those people, to see how they really feel about what has happened in Cuba for the last 60 years.
VANIER: Rafael, and do you feel that that is the legacy of Fidel Castro today?
ROMO: The legacy of Fidel Castro is in Miami, is in New York, is in Houston, is in all of those places around the United States where Cuban Americans live. Many of my friends who are second generation Cuban Americans, who are still, in a way, affected by what their parents lived, by people who had to flee Cuba with nothing but whatever they could carry, people who had to find clever ways to leave because, if they tried the normal way, they would be shot on the spot.
I was mentioning people like (INAUDIBLE) before, who fought alongside Fidel Castro at the beginning of the revolution. But the moment Fidel Castro became a Marxist, (INAUDIBLE) didn't want to have anything to do with that. What happened to him: 20 years in prison. He was freed in 1979; he lived in exile in the United States for a while. Then he lived in Costa Rica. He died in 2014, never was able to go back to Cuba.
So it's very emotionally charged and I understand people who see Fidel Castro, his endurance. He had to deal with -- think of this -- 11 U.S. presidents had to deal with Fidel Castro. That's -- if you --
[03:55:00]
ROMO: -- put the numbers together, that's almost a quarter of all of the chief executives in U.S. history. That's a lot of presidents with the same problem. It's just amazing.
HOWELL: It's interesting. The last guest, the former Singapore ambassador to the U.N., I did have to push back on his suggestion that what we are seeing in Miami is a small, distorted reaction because, again, it is important. It is important to point out that millions of people fled Cuba to get to the United States.
Many people in Miami, if we can take a look at these images, many people are reacting. They are celebrating in this streets this hour, at 3:55 in the morning on the U.S. East Coast, gathered there just outside of the Versailles restaurant, a very famous restaurant for Cuban Americans, to gather, to talk about politics and, on this day, to mark history, the death of Fidel Castro at 90 years old.
CNN will continue to follow the breaking news just after the break. Stay with us.
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