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Michigan Moves Forward with Recount; Trump Unleashes Against China; Protesters Celebrate Pipeline Victory; Gunman Self-Investigates Fake News Story. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired December 05, 2016 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:30:00] JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: David Petraeus making a public case for the top post.

GEN. DAVID PETRAEUS (RET.), FORMER CIA DIRECTOR: Five years ago, I made a serious mistake. I acknowledged it. I apologized for it.

SCHNEIDER: Arguing that his guilty plea for revealing classified information to his former mistress should not disqualify him from serving as secretary of state.

PETRAEUS: I paid a very heavy price for it and I've learned from it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCHNEIDER: So while the secretary of state intrigue continues, the issue of ballot recounts also continues to bubble up. In fact, Green Party Candidate Jill Stein will be outside Trump Tower today at 10:00 a.m., holding what she is calling a recount rally. She is moving for recounts in three different states where Donald Trump won by a narrow margin. They include Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and Michigan. In fact, a federal judge ordering that the Michigan recount will begin at noon today. Jill Stein also filed this morning for a recount at the federal level in the state of Pennsylvania.

Carol.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Jessica Schneider reporting live for us this morning.

Let's talk about this. With me now, Julian Zelizer. He's a historian and professor at Princeton University. And CNN global affairs analyst David Rohde. He's a national security investigations editor for Reuters.

Welcome to both of you.

JULIAN ZELIZER, HISTORIAN & PROFESSOR, PRINCETON UNIVERSITY: Thank you.

COSTELLO: OK, so I'm just going to step back and I'm going to tell you what Donald Trump supporters think about the whole China/Taiwan thing. They think America's been wimpy. They want someone to take a strong stance and they see Donald Trump tweeting out these things about China as taking a strong stand. So what's wrong with that?

DAVID ROHDE, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: It's -- there's nothing wrong with it politically. It's very popular with his base. The question is, what does it lead to? Will this lead to a military confrontation with China in the South China Sea? Could it lead to a trade war with China. And I'll throw out a third thing, North Korea. North Korea's getting very close to having a nuclear weapon it can place on a missile. China is our leverage to stop North Korea from doing that. You know, how do those -- all three of those things play out?

COSTELLO: But isn't it possible China's also building military installations in the South China Sea, right? It's becoming more and more aggressive militarily. The United States is worried about that. It dumps cheap steel on states like Ohio, cheap Chines steel, and that makes the manufacturing jobs go away in the rust belt of America. So when you consider those things, which are more important to people's lives, frankly, in the short-term, right, then -- then, again, Donald Trump's supporters would say, go for it, Donald.

ZELIZER: Right. Well there's a lot of agreement that there are problems with China. But I think there's two issues. One is, how is he conducting this kind of diplomacy. Twitter is not subtle, nor are the statements he makes and that can have dangerous consequences. And, two, I think the consequences of what he is doing might not make things better. If we enter into a trade war with China, there might be fewer jobs here for the United States. And if we are in a war that requires troops, that might not be very popular with Trump's supporters either. So diplomacy has to be thought through very cautiously before these kind of statements are made.

COSTELLO: OK, so the one thing that is a little -- well it's a lot confusing to me. So if Donald Trump really wanted to demonstrate strength, why -- why not own it because Trump tweeted out that Taiwan called him, but "The Washington Post" is reporting that this call between Taiwan and the Trump transition team was -- was long in the works. So why not own it if you want to like be strong?

ROHDE: I think he -- he did in that -- the last round of tweets, but it's -- it is a bit confusing, you know. I think it was planned. I think it was intentional. I think there's -- people advising him are very hardline on China and they supported this call. And to his credit, maybe he's being a businessman and starting out with a really tough negotiating position at the beginning of his administration and he'll back down. Again, his base doesn't want him to back down. He's -- he's made -- on so many other issues, just like with China, he's promising to get tough, but also deliver jobs in the U.S. Can you do those two things at the same time?

COSTELLO: Yes, and you mentioned these ensuing tweets, and I just want to put them up on the screen for our viewers in case you missed them. So Trump tweeted out, quote, "interesting how the U.S. sells Taiwan billions of dollars of military equipment, but I should not accept a congratulatory call." And then he went after China later, quote, "did China ask us if it was OK to devalue our currency, making it hard for our companies to compete, heavy tax our products, going into their country," -- the U.S. doesn't tax them -- "or to build a massive military complex in the middle of the South China Sea? I don't think so." So, he is tweeting tough, of course. Is China really unnerved by this?

ZELIZER: Well, it's not -- I mean it's not clear. Initially they're showing some restraint. And this might be a consequence of understanding who the president-elect is, having doubts about him and saying, we're not going to respond initially. But at some point, this will cause a reaction from China. And that's inevitable. And that's why at this point I think people are watching to see what did his advisers say? Do they keep pushing him in this direction or do they somehow convince him, you need to stop and we can handle a strategy in a different way, in a more deliberate way, if we actually want to change relations and policies toward China.

[09:35:11] COSTELLO: Yes, and I just want to go back to a question I should have asked you at the beginning because I don't think most Americans understand why it's a big deal that Donald Trump talked to the leader of Taiwan.

ROHDE: It was the first formal communication and public communication between the U.S. government and a Taiwanese government since 1979. You know, the essentially U.S. policy has been to ignore Taiwan. And there's been very heavy criticism from the Chinese public at their own leaders, at their government, for not pushing back harder against Trump. So you've got a nationalist force, the nationalist, you know, drive in China itself to stand up to the U.S., to be outraged about this communication with Taiwan. If, you know, Trump plays on nationals in the U.S., that's a dangerous combination.

COSTELLO: And just to be a little more clear, China considers Taiwan a rogue nation. It considers Taiwan part of China. And the United States sort of like accepts that, or at least doesn't mention that Taiwan might really truly be a separate (INAUDIBLE).

ZELIZER: Well, we've followed this policy since Jimmy -- President Jimmy Carter's agreement, a one China policy. We do have relations with Taiwan. As the president-elect has pointed out, we sell arms, but we have maintained this diplomatic structure. So this is a big break. He knows this. And I think his advisers know this. And I think "The Washington Post" is suggesting, at least from some advisers, this was an intentional push. Whether he's fully aware of the ramifications, we don't know.

COSTELLO: Julian Zelizer, David Rohde, thank you so much.

ZELIZER: Thank you.

COSTELLO: Still to come in the NEWSROOM, a major win for pipeline protesters, but will it be short lived?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:40:53] COSTELLO: After weeks of police clashes and brutal winter weather, the Standing Rock Sioux and thousands of their supporters are celebrating.

(VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Drums and chanting and tears of joy as the Army Corps of Engineers decide it will reroute the Dakota Access Pipeline. But the celebrations could be short-lived. There are fears the decision could be reversed by the Trump administration. CNN's Sara Sidner live in North Dakota with more.

Good morning, Sara.

SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Carol.

Yes, I mean there were -- there were crying people in the crowd. There were people drumming and cheering and chanting and feeling so hopeful. Feeling like their voices were finally heard, especially the members of the Standing Rock Sioux and the Sioux Nation, or the Ochethi Sakowin, as they're known in their own language. They felt like this was finally a victory in a battle that has gone on for months now, even through these frigid temperatures and a blizzard. They have been fighting to stop this pipeline from going under the Missouri River just about a mile and a half up that way, worried that one day that pipe will leak and will poison the water that they use, and that millions of other Americans downstream use.

So here's the reaction when they heard the Army Corps of Engineers had decided not to give a permit to allow that to happen, which essentially made the pipeline reroute.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHASE IRON EYES, STANDING ROCK SIOUX TRIBESMAN: A new day is dawning for our people. We are waking up not just indigenous people, but American citizens are starting to think twice, starting to be cognizant of their constitutional rights, their civil rights, and their human rights. And we need that right now, more than ever, as we face a new presidency. We need to make sure that President-elect Trump can't override this decision here today when he takes office.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: That was Chase Iron Eyes, who has also run for Congress. And he is not the only voice saying that. There's a lot of people here celebrating, but knowing that this could change. And it has changed because we have heard now from the company that owns the pipeline, Energy Transfer Partners. And here's how they responded to the Army Corps of Engineers' latest move not to give them a permit, basically making them reroute this pipeline. Here's what they said. They said, quote, "we are fully committed to ensuring that this vital project is brought to completion and fully expect to complete construction of the pipeline without any additional rerouting. Nothing this administration has done today changes that in any way."

So at this point in time, that now brings everything back to a head. Brings the flashpoint back to where it was before the Army Corps decision because now basically what they're saying is, we're going forward with this. And the worry is, here, that the Donald Trump administration, once in office, will allow that to happen. Carol.

COSTELLO: All right, Sara Sidner reporting live from North Dakota this morning.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, an armed man opens fire in a D.C. pizzeria. His motivation, well, it came from fake news. We'll talk about that, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:48:15] COSTELLO: Fake news stories do have consequences, potentially deadly consequences. Police say 28-year-old Edgar Madison Welch stormed into the Comet Ping Pong restaurant in D.C. armed with a shotgun. He told the cops he wanted to investigate, quote, "pizzagate," a totally bogus online conspiracy theory spread by, among others, our new national security adviser's son, Michael Flynn Jr.

CNN's Joe Johns is following this from northwest Washington.

Good morning.

JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Carol.

This is the restaurant behind me and police do say 28-year-old Edgar Madison Welch walked into this restaurant holding a rifle. He apparently fired it. No one was injured. Police arrested him. He was charged with assault with a deadly weapon.

When they sat down and talked to him, he said he was here to self- investigate "pizzagate," which police themselves call an online fictitious conspiracy theory. So, he's taken into custody.

This is a problem, apparently, that this restaurant has been dealing with for quite a while. Several weeks, in fact, there have been death threats against people who worked for the restaurant, we are told. Now, the owner has put out a statement, and he said, in part, "what happened demonstrates that promoting false conspiracy theories comes with consequences." And he also wrote essentially that they're not going to be put out of business. "We're heartened by the support and loyalty of our customers and our community. They're our life blood and we'll continue to serve them joyfully," he says, "for the decades to come."

Still, despite the fact that sunlight has now been placed on this issue a very public way with all the mainstream media coverage, the fact of the matter is, it's still not clear how long it's going to take before it's put to rest.

[09:50:06] Carol, back to you.

COSTELLO: All right, Joe Johns reporting live from northwest Washington.

With me now to talk about this is CNN's senior media correspondent and anchor of "Reliable Sources," Brian Stelter, and Dean Obeidallah, a columnist for "The Daily Beast" and the host of Sirius XM Radio show, "The Dean Obeidallah Show."

Welcome to both of you.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Thanks.

DEAN OBEIDALLAH, CONTRIBUTOR, "THE DAILY BEAST": Thanks.

COSTELLO: All right, so, Brian, this bogus story. In short, Hillary Clinton and John Podesta, which is her campaign aide, were supposedly involved in running a child sex ring out of Comet Pizza. There is zero evidence of this. Totally, totally bogus. Yet Michael Flynn Jr., the new national security adviser's son, tweeted this out on Sunday after this incident went down.

STELTER: Yes.

COSTELLO: Quote, "until 'pizzagate' proven to be false, it will remain a story. The left seems to forget Podesta e-mails and the many coincidences tied to it." Again, D.C. police say "pizzagate" is completely fictitious, but Flynn's tweet has been retweeted 1,100 times as of 7:00 this morning.

STELTER: It's a dangerous territory to think that until you can completely disprove something that you assume it's true. This is the kind of theory that, you know, I was starting to roll my eyes and laugh when you were describing it. It's so ludicrous. It's so ridiculous. It's one of these anti-Clinton conspiracy theories during the election that was so preposterous, I actually tried not to pay attention to it. But that's actually part of the problem. These even ridiculous theories are serious and this one individual from North Carolina apparently felt compelled to drive to Washington, D.C., to investigate it, allegedly walk into the restaurant with a gun as a result. Thankfully no one was injured. And this could have --

COSTELLO: Fired off a shot, by the way.

STELTER: This could have ended up very different differently. He did fire off his weapon. This is an example of fake news having real consequences and causing real violence.

COSTELLO: And here's the other thing, Dean. I know it was General Flynn's son that was sending out that tweet.

OBEIDALLAH: Yes.

COSTELLO: But General Flynn himself, who is going to be our new national security adviser, tweeted this back on November 2nd. Quote, "you decide. NYPD blows whistle on new Hillary e-mails, money laundering, sex crimes with children, et cetera, must read." Again, a totally bogus tweet, but the tweet is still on General Flynn's feed and it has been retweeted more than 9,000 times.

OBEIDALLAH: We're living in a world where facts don't matter. And it's very scary. The man online who did this, who went to investigate with a gun, I wonder if a Muslim guy went to a pizza place with a gun to investigate how that would have went down. I think much worse, to be honest. These guys, you know, we used to have the expression, you're entitled to your own opinion, not your own facts. I think the late (INAUDIBLE) said that. Now you have your own facts and you have people who will retweet it and it gives it credibility. It is stunningly scary.

COSTELLO: And these are credible people. General Flynn is going to be the national security adviser.

OBEIDALLAH: Arguably. Arguably he is. And Breitbart had something to do with it, writing an article about that. So you have, you know, Steve Bannon involved, who's now also in the administration. Donald Trump, though, on some level, is the great purveyor of fake news. According to Politicofact (ph), which is non-partisan, said he had 174 statements in this campaign which were either false or pants on fire. Just made them up. Just make them up. So, Donald Trump, when you're misinforming good people in this country and you have people like Flynn as well doing it, and Bannon doing it, it's unfortunate. You have good people misinformed. And on this case, the man was radicalized online. This is not ISIS radicalizing someone.

STELTER: Radicalized is an interesting word.

OBEIDALLAH: Right.

STELTER: Conspiracy theories, these kind of swamps of the Internet can cause people to embrace extreme, wild views because you -- it's reinforcing online. It's self-reinforcing. You read all these articles, all these weird clues on Twitter and FaceBook that make you think a preposterous idea like "pizzagate" is actually true.

COSTELLO: Well, and it has wide-ranging repercussions. And not just on the owner, right?

STELTER: Right.

COSTELLO: The owner -- NPR interviewed the owner. His name is James Alefantis. And he talked to NPR a months ago and he described how these fake news sites use children, real children, to spread the sick story of this Clinton sex ring at Comet. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES ALEFANTIS, OWNER OF COMET PING PONG (voice-over): So essentially they would go into our social media accounts and they would take photographs that were on my Instagram of my friends' children or of my associates' children and post them around thousands and thousands of fake news sites and on Reddit and on YouTube and use these images of happily playing innocent children as proof of some kind of human trafficking scheme led by the Clintons.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: OK, so that's sick.

OBEIDALLAH: There's no words for this. And, you know, There's a flipside to this, Carol. I wrote an article last week for "The Daily Beast," documented the hate instances against people, hate crimes or swastikas written up, women with hijabs having their hijabs ripped off (INAUDIBLE) "The Daily Beast." I had tons of Trump supporters telling me I'm lying. I'm making up all these cases. And I would send them the local news stories with images of swastikas --

STELTER: Right. Right.

OBEIDALLAH: And, still, and some of it maybe they're playing a game, but some of it's real. Unless Donald Trump says --

STELTER: (INAUDIBLE) through the looking glass situation. You know, I would say to our audience at home, I think the vast majority of people don't get caught up in these crazy smears and ideas. To them and to their relatives and friends, refuse to be confused. Refuse to be played and tricked by these conspiracy theories. When I heard about (INAUDIBLE), Carol, I was glad I'm going to be in that neighborhood later this week so I can go buy a slice of pizza and Comet Ping Pong and support the local business.

[09:55:12] COSTELLO: (INAUDIBLE). It's such an awesome restaurant.

STELTER: You know, because that's one of the other concerns here. That business, others on the block have been affected by these threats. Let's hope there can be a reaction the other direction, supporting these businesses. But, more broadly, there's also a role for FaceBook, for Twitter, for Google, for big media companies to try to do more to rebut these lies because that's what we've really got to face.

COSTELLO: But the responsibility also lies in our public officials who must come out and say, you know, this is just not true.

OBEIDALLAH: Absolutely.

STELTER: Right.

OBEIDALLAH: So, again, yesterday it was Paul Ryan refusing to denounce the claim that three million illegal people voted, said I can't tell you that's true or not. You're furthering lies. And the problem is, if you're going to deny the real suffering of people, like with hate crimes, it can lead to a very dark place in human history. We have seen it. So, people, please, use critical thinking. Look at the source of where that material is sent from you. That's the problem. People will give credibility to things that don't have credibility. My articles, all credible. Some people's articles, they have no credibility. But, I'm serious, look at the source and double check and triple check. I used to be a lawyer. I have critical thinking skills. (INAUDIBLE) --

STELTER: We're having shared accountability. Leaders, public officials, individual users, media companies, big social media companies, there is really shared responsibility here.

OBEIDALLAH: Yes.

COSTELLO: Thank you so much, Brian Stelter Dean Obeidallah.

STELTER: Thanks.

COSTELLO: The next hour of CNN NEWSROOM after a break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: And good morning. I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me.

We are following two breaking news stories this morning. First, new details on the horrific warehouse fire in Oakland, California. Authorities now confirm they've identified where that fire broke out. It broke out in the back of the building.

In the meantime, the death toll climbs. At least 36 people now confirmed dead. We're learning the names and ages of some of those victims. We'll have more on that in just a minute.

[10:00:02] Right now let's take a live look outside of Trump Tower where former Green Party Candidate Jill Stein is about to hold a rally and a news conference. The Stein camp still pushing for a recount in Pennsylvania despite mounting costs.