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Obamacare Repeal Timeline?; Interview With Arizona Congressman Matt Salmon; Trump vs. China. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired December 05, 2016 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:03] RANA FOROOHAR, CNN ANALYST: And that would actually not be a popular thing to do here back at home.

ANA CABRERA, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Rana Foroohar, thanks for your expertise and weighing in.

RANA FOROOHAR: Thank you.

CABRERA: Top of the hour. I'm Ana Cabrera, in for Brooke Baldwin this afternoon. Thank you for being here.

The White House has just acknowledged that president-elect Donald Trump's latest war of words with China could damage the progress the United States has made with the Asian powerhouse.

Now, Trump went on a Twitter tirade today after Chinese officials lodged a complaint with the U.S. over Trump's phone call with the president of Taiwan. He tweeted this: "Did China ask us if it was OK to devalue their currency, making it harder for our companies to compete, heavily tax our products going into their country? The U.S. doesn't tax them. Or to build a massive military complex in the middle of the South China Sea? I don't think so."

Now, let me point out the U.S. does impose a small tax on Chinese goods.

So, earlier, White House Press Secretary Josh Earnest said U.S. officials did speak with their Chinese counterparts after that Trump phone call. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Some of the progress that we have made in our relationship with China could be undermined by this issue flaring up. It's also unclear how the people who live in Taiwan benefit from this issue flaring up.

The response from the Chinese government in the aftermath of this call has primarily been to ratchet up the rhetoric against Taiwan.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Joining me now, "Washington Post" staff writer Anne Gearan.

Anne, I know you just wrote a piece about this phone call, vice president-elect this weekend saying, it was just a courtesy call. We shouldn't read too much into it.

But you write this call may have been planned weeks ago. You say it was intentionally provocative. What are your sources telling you?

ANNE GEARAN, "THE WASHINGTON POST": Well, thank you, Ana.

They're telling us a number of interesting things, including that the groundwork for this contact was laid months and months ago, even before Donald Trump--

CABRERA: Months ago?

GEARAN: -- even before Donald Trump had -- yes, even before Trump had secured the presidential nomination.

There was an effort to insert some very strong language into the Republican platform that was approved in July, when he was given the nomination, but, of course, that language had been written earlier than that, that kind of drew a line, a new line, on Taiwan and China, a tougher line against China and included very supportive language that was slightly -- about Taiwan that was slightly different than previous Republican platforms.

Some of the people involved in that effort are also some of the people who have been advising Trump directly or at arm's length in the month since. And he's now surrounded by a number of Republican foreign policy specialists for whom Taiwan is a very major priority.

And they have been talking to him and talking among themselves for weeks now about how to make a -- send a strong signal on Taiwan and kind of make a splash with this issue, which is how the call Friday came about.

CABRERA: Now, has China responded as expected?

GEARAN: You know, China is one of the toughest countries to predict and to understand what they are saying and why and how they're going to respond to things.

Certainly, the initial response, which was a stern note of rebuke and irritation, was expected. That was directed first at the White House, which is sort of a classic Chinese move, to essentially blame the government in power now, even though, of course, President Obama didn't have anything to do with this call.

But the Chinese response was to basically say to Obama, hey, dude, like, why can't you keep things in order over there? And that may be part of the reason that you heard Josh Earnest speak with considerable irritation today.

But what's happened in the days since Friday on the Chinese side is really interesting. We're starting to get some indications that the Chinese are rethinking their initial judgment of Trump as a businessman without strong ideology and questioning whether, in fact, he really is going to be an ideologue on China and whether is going to change the way the Chinese deal with him. CABRERA: It will be interesting to see how this all plays out,

because one thing we know about Trump, he's very unpredictable and he likes that he has some power in his unpredictability.

Anne Gearan, thanks for covering it. Thanks for filling in on some of the questions surrounding that phone call.

I want to turn now to someone who supports Trump's phone call with the president of Taiwan.

Joining me is Republican Congressman from Arizona Matt Salmon. He used to be a missionary in Taiwan and is now chairman on the House Foreign Affairs Subcommittee on Asia and the Pacific.

[15:05:05] Congressman, thank you so much for joining us.

What's your take on this phone call with Trump, the Taiwanese president? Is it a blunder or is this something more strategic?

REP. MATT SALMON (R), ARIZONA: I actually find it quite ironic that the same people that are raising the red flags about this phone call from the Taiwan president to president-elect Trump are the same folks that heaped praise on President Obama when he unilaterally started negotiations with the leading sponsor of terrorism in the world, Iran.

And the same thing when he started negotiating with the brutal killer Fidel Castro in Cuba without talking to Congress, without reaching out to really anybody else.

He did that alone. I think it's quite ironic the same people are raising the red flag about Trump taking a call from a good friend and strong supporter of democracy. I lived in Taiwan when we severed relations with them in 1979, when President Carter severed all diplomatic ties with Taiwan.

And I think I have a pretty good take on them and China. I have been to China over 50 times. And, as the chairman of the Asian Pacific Subcommittee on Foreign Affairs, I think I have a pretty good read on what motivates them. And I think actually this is no tempest -- or this is nothing but a tempest in a teapot.

CABRERA: If it's not a tempest in a teapot, I want to ask you about the longstanding one-China policy that we have heard so much about in the last few days. Do you see any risk or danger in Trump's actions?

SALMON: No, I don't see any risk in the decades-old one-China policy.

But I think that Trump is also trying to get into a position of strength in negotiating with China. I heard one of the pundits this morning, one of the former ambassadors say, you know, it's a decades- old policy, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

The next analyst came on and I think raised some very valid points. What you do you mean ain't broke? These guys haven't lifted a finger to help us stop North Korea from realizing their nuclear ambitions. They haven't done anything to come to the table on that. They're also building military installations in the South China Sea and they're manipulating their currency.

I could go on and on and on. But the fact is that this is not a policy that is without its problems as it currently stands. And I think that China needs to understand that the United States is not just going to sit by idly while they flout some of our international rules and norms.

I think that Trump is trying to get into a position of strength. And I actually applaud him for it.

CABRERA: Is there any risk of military intervention becoming involved in this situation?

SALMON: Not at all. I think that the Chinese understand how important we are to their economic success. In fact, they hold $100 billion-plus surplus, trade surplus, with the United States.

Also, Taiwan is the number one investor in their economy. They understand the goose and the golden egg and they're not going to do anything to disrupt that.

CABRERA: Is this a power play by Donald Trump? And how effective do you anticipate it is, given not only the phone call, but also his tweets?

SALMON: I think that the president-elect understands a lot better than I think people give him credit for. I think that he understands that for a long, long time, China's been dictating a lot of the terms of the multi -- or -- excuse me -- the bilateral agreement between us and them and deciding which things they want to adhere to and which things they don't.

And I think for him to send a clear message to them in the future, it's going to -- it's going to take a relationship that involves both of us.

CABRERA: All right, Congressman Matt Salmon, thanks so much for your opinion. We appreciate you joining us.

SALMON: Thank you.

CABRERA: Now for some analysis.

Joining me, CNN's global affairs analysis -- analyst, I should say, Kimberly Dozier, and CNN senior Washington correspondent Jeff Zeleny.

Kimberly, to you first, because we have also been discussing in recent days the secretary of state position. Obviously, whoever ends up filling that seat is going to have to deal with what's become a very controversial situation involving China and Taiwan and the United States.

What kind of a headache is there for Trump's next secretary of state?

KIMBERLY DOZIER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: A headache. And also what we're seeing is a familiar pattern where the president- elect, just as when he was campaigning, seems to get out front with something his staff wasn't prepared to explain. There was that first tweet out there then where he sounded very defensive.

[15:10:00] And then China in turn said, well, this call really shouldn't have been made, but maybe it's his inexperience. And then he fought back with more tweets. And now we're hearing from his staff, oh, you know, we planned this all along.

It certainly didn't unfold like something that had been planned for a long time. And what could happened is that people who are considering taking the secretary of state role are wondering, will he back me up or will he undermine in future will a tweet that I will then have to find a way to explain and defend?

That's something we simply won't know until he his own team around him and we see the interplay and how long they stick around.

CABRERA: Jeff, we're also hearing there are more secretary of state candidates also entering the mix here. What do you read into that?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Last week, they said this was down to four people. Now it's not the situation here.

John Bolton, the former U.N. ambassador, is one name that's being talked about a lot. He's had a lot of meetings with the Trump officials. Also, David Petraeus still in the mix.

The CEO of Exxon also in the mix. We're told Jon Huntsman, the former Utah governor, former ambassador to China, also in the mix, and Mitt Romney and Rudy Giuliani are also we believe still in the mix here. There seems to not be a sense of urgency or a rush on this.

This may now be one of the final spots, as opposed to one of the earlier spots which we thought would happen. A lot of Mitt Romney intimates and friends and advisers are very sort of nervous by what's been happening, because they say Mitt Romney has gone through this process. He essentially walked back everything he said, you know, during the campaign and he may look foolish here at the end of the day, they believe. But they're still not sure who he will pick.

CABRERA: So, meantime, he's picking other Cabinet positions, he's tweeting on China and he's meeting with Al Gore, apparently, today, a guy who of course has made climate change his platform and now Donald Trump seems to be extending perhaps an olive branch.

ZELENY: Right.

So interesting. Of all the people we have seen sort of walk into Trump Tower, I think Al Gore is the most interesting in the last month really.

CABRERA: Why?

ZELENY: Look, he campaigned so aggressively against Donald Trump. He has one issue. That's climate change. But Donald Trump is very familiar and friendly to Florida. I'm told by one adviser this was a very Florida-specific conversation, that Donald Trump had an open mind to this.

So, I think it's going to drive some of his supporters on the other side of climate change absolutely crazy he's sitting down with Al Gore. This is so interesting. We will see if this is a one-off or it's the first of several meetings here.

But he was supposed to go meet with Ivanka Trump. He ended up with in a long meeting with Donald Trump. So interesting.

CABRERA: The idea that Ivanka Trump would have been meeting with Al Gore has also raised questions, Kimberly, about conflict of interest of his children, perhaps, joining Donald Trump in some of these meetings that are regarding U.S. policy and then yet maybe taking over his businesses. Do you see a conflict of interest in this dynamic?

DOZIER: At this point, you can't but help be concerned when his children, who are going to be running his business and have been conducting business with some of the some of these countries, are now in a meeting with president-elect and those leaders.

But, remember, he's not sworn in yet. So, I think what you may see is if this kind of meeting continues after he's become president, probably you're going to see American citizens, ACLU, some sort of action group look for a case where they can sue and bring this to the courts and really test out this conflict.

CABRERA: All right. Kimberly Dozier and Jeff Zeleny, thank you so much.

Up next, they are two of Trump's closest advisers. We're going to talk more about his daughter and son-in-law now moving from New York to D.C. Are they planning to do more at the White House?

Plus, a gunman walks into a pizza restaurant, fires a shot. Why? Because he was -- quote -- "self-investigating" a fake news story involving Hillary Clinton. You will hear from someone who was inside.

And at least 36 people are now dead in this tragic warehouse fire in Oakland. New details about where the fire may have started.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:18:14] CABRERA: The death toll in horrific fire in Oakland, California, is still rising; 36 people have now been confirmed dead and officials say that number could still go up.

Flames raced through the building late Friday during an electronic music show, we're told. A criminal investigation has been opened and Oakland police officials just finished a briefing saying that crews are back inside the building after they had to retreat because it was unsafe.

But some further efforts will require turning off the power for about 12 hours.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHNNA WATSON, OAKLAND POLICE SPOKESWOMAN: Because they were able to go back in, they have been able to shore up and stabilize to the point where they felt it was safe to go back in. Now, our second challenge is the crane, the position of the crane and the telephone or the power lines.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: I want to bring in fire inspector Robert Rowe, who is president and owner of Pyrocop, Incorporated.

So, crews are turning off the power, as we have just heard, in this area to make room for a large crane, Robert. What does that tell you about the scene and some of the challenges investigators might be facing?

ROBERT ROWE, FIRE INVESTIGATOR: Well, with most fire scenes, it can be very dangerous, so, you have to take every precaution necessary to ensure the safety of the rescuers and the investigators.

So, by bringing in cranes, they're taking a step back and then moving forward safely and methodically. They have to be very careful about removing the debris, making sure that they don't disturb any evidence or, basically, harm the fire scene at all in any way, so they can have a pure investigation.

CABRERA: When we look at some of the pictures, you see just how widespread the flames are in this really big building.

We're also learning that fire crews discovered steel that was twisted and wrapped kind of in the back of the building. Could that be a clue, do you think, into the fire's origin, perhaps?

[15:20:05] ROWE: You know, it's very difficult to determine that early in the stages of this fire.

They're going to have to, again, methodically disassemble the fire scene to be able to get a clear picture of exactly what occurred. They are going to look at burn patterns, they are going to look at fire patterns, are going to look at everything when they go through.

So it's kind of hard early in this stage of the investigation to make a determination at that point.

CABRERA: Let's listen to what a former resident of this warehouse told us. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHELLEY MACK, FORMER RESIDENT OF WAREHOUSE: I expected it to be shut down a long time ago. I called the police three times myself. They escorted me out of that place when I was living there. So, they were in there to escort me out. The police were there like every single week when I was there more than one time in a week. I called them three times in one week myself.

There were several police there, Derek and Michael. All knew on first name. They were there on a regular basis, on a regular basis. I called them. I explained everything when I was leaving.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: So, she brings up safety concerns.

Robert, we do know property records say this warehouse or the owner there had received some notifications from the city, some violations of code, issues regarding hazardous debris and trash. Your thoughts, given what we just heard from this former resident?

ROWE: Well, whenever you have a facility of any type, fire codes and building codes are definitely something that must be adhered to in order to maintain a safe environment for people to live and work.

So, by having those former violations or those current violations that still need to be addressed, that's an indication that maybe the health of the building in and itself for some time is a factor in this fire. So--

(CROSSTALK)

CABRERA: Why would there have been so many people and victims in this fire? I know, like you said, we can't speculate. We have got to let the investigation unfold.

But your experience, as an investigator, the fact that so many people did not escape, does that raise any red flags to you?

ROWE: It does.

Number one, the first thing that comes to mind is, what is the use of the building? The use of the building, as I understand it, was a warehouse at one time, and still is, actually, until there's an official change of use basically assigned to that building by the building department. They have to go in, they have to examine this building and determine what use it is.

In this case, they're using it for residential. That's why you have a high fatality rate.

CABRERA: It's just all so sad. Robert Rowe, thanks for lending your ear and your mind to it. We really do appreciate it.

ROWE: My heart goes out to those that are lost.

CABRERA: No doubt about it. Thanks again.

We have some news just in I want to get to. House Speaker Paul Ryan weighing in, revealing something about the future of Obamacare and the timeline to replace it under President Trump. Stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [15:27:33] CABRERA: House Speaker Paul Ryan apparently downplaying

expectations on how long it might take to replace Obamacare.

Of course, that was something laid out in Trump's 100 days in office plan, what he wanted to really prioritize. But the Republican told his local paper now he wants to make sure no one is worse off after Congress votes to repeal the program.

He told "The Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel" today this -- quote -- "It will clearly take time. It took them about six years to stand up Obamacare. It's not going to be replaced come next football season."

CNN senior political reporter Manu Raju has been following the fight over Obamacare. He joins me now from Capitol Hill.

What more can you tell us, Manu, about Speaker Ryan's comments and where they are coming from? Because I understand the speaker and Donald Trump have been in close communication.

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Indeed they have, Ana.

And, also, Paul Ryan really speaking to the legislative and political realities on Capitol Hill, that it takes a really long time to get legislation through. Now, they can actually pass a repeal of Obamacare right away. They can actually repeal most of the law come January when they move through the budget in January and they can actually fast-track it and avoid a Senate filibuster, meaning that they could pass a repeal on a party-line vote.

Now, a replacement of Obamacare, they will need Democratic support under the rules in order to get that done. That means in the Senate at least eight Democrats need to cooperate with 52 Republicans to get that done. And that is very difficult, given how polarizing of an issue health care is.

Now, Paul Ryan, when speaking to "The Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel" today, said: "Clearly, there will be a transition and a bridge so that no one is left out in the cold, so that no one is worse off. The purpose here," he said, "is to bring relief to people who are suffering from Obamacare so they can get something better."

But I can tell you, Ana, even if there is a two- or three-year transition period, which is what Republicans are talking about now, some of those insurers could pull out of the market right away, as soon as that repeal is enacted, and that could throw the system into chaos, meaning may need to move on a replacement even quicker in order to bring some stability to the market, Ana.

CABRERA: And that of course raises the question, what does happen to those people who are on Obamacare, those people who have preexisting conditions, those people who are 25 years old or 24 years old, right at that cutoff as being on their parents' health insurance?

So, Manu Raju, this clearly is now something that has opened up a whole new can of worms as we continue the discussion. I know you are going to continue to work on getting more answers for us. Manu Raju, thank you so much.

Just days after the election, one of the incoming president's closest confidants said she wanted to play no role in her father's administration.