Return to Transcripts main page

WORLD RIGHT NOW WITH HALA GORANI

Rise Of Populism Changes Political Landscape; Renzi Likely To Resign After Budget Is Passed; Rebel-Held Areas Could Collapse Soon In Aleppo; U.S. President-Elect Faces Foreign Policy Challenges; Rouhani: Iran Won't Let Trump Rip Up Nuclear Deal; Barack Obama on How He Made America Safer; Tech Giants Join Forces to Fight Terror; Donald Trump Conducts His Biggest Reality Show; Bowie's "Black Star" Up for Four Grammys. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired December 6, 2016 - 15:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(HEADLINES)

[15:00:32] HALA GORANI, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Hala Gorani. We are live at CNN London. Thanks for being with us. This is THE WORLD RIGHT

NOW.

Well, few saw Brexit coming, fewer still saw Donald Trump winning the White House, but populist politics are on the rise most evidently right here in

Europe and it is shaking the established order right to its very core.

Take a look, for instance at this still photograph, Barack Obama, Francois Hollande, David Cameron, Matteo Renzi, all gone or about to go as the

political landscape in the western world changes rapidly.

From that photo, Angela Merkel is still standing, but she faces her own electorate next year and she has been criticized for instance for that open

door policy toward migrants. Perhaps already in campaign mode, she now says she wants a ban on the Muslim full-face veil in her country. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANGELA MERKEL, GERMAN CHANCELLOR (through translator): We have to show our face during personal communication which is important and that is why the

full veil is not appropriate here. It should be forbidden wherever that is legally possible. It does not belong to us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GORANI: Well, we are covering this story from across all of Europe. Melissa Bell is live in Paris as the French political landscape changes by

the day. Ben Wedeman is in Rome. Italy sits in limbo after Sunday's referendum.

We start here in London as the U.K. grapples with just how and when to leave the European Union. Erin McLaughlin joins me live from the British

capital. So the time table, it's becoming a little bit clear as far as when Brexit will happen. Tell us more.

ERIN MCLAUGHLIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Hala. The potential time table -- I should say Michel Barnier, who is the chief Brexit

negotiator for the European Commission gave his first press conference in that capacity today addressing the potential time table essentially

reiterating what we already knew, which is that once Article 50 is invoked by the U.K., that leaves a two-year window for the U.K. to exit the

European Union.

But he says in reality that only leaves about 18 months for the negotiations to take place because six months is required for parliamentary

approval here in the U.K. as well as approval by the relevant E.U. bodies in Brussels.

So he said that if Theresa May sticks to her current plan invokes Article 50 by March of 2017, that means we would have a deal by October of 2018.

But of course, that is a big if because as we know, there is a case before the U.K. Supreme Court right now that could require an act of parliament

which, you know, could delay things.

GORANI: Certainly, well, maybe a little bit more clarity on the time line, but certainly cryptic words, some have said, coming from Theresa May, the

British prime minister, about what Brexit actually means, hard, soft or somewhere in between. Tell us about that.

MCLAUGHLIN: That's right. Theresa May is currently in Bahrain for a two- day visit (inaudible) visit looking to strengthen ties with the Gulf States. That region is the third largest expert market for the United

Kingdom. She'll be looking to make trade deals there in a post-Brexit reality.

Brexit, of course, came up when she spoke to the media, she talked about what Brexit means. She also said she was optimistic about an E.U. trade

deal out of the Brexit negotiations. Take a listen to what she had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

THERESA MAY, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: I'm ambitious with that trade deal because I think it is important for Europe as well as being important for

the U.K. Sometimes people look at this as somehow the U.K. taking one particular model. The U.K. trying to take some of the elements of

membership.

[15:05:12]It's not about this sort of Brexit or that Brexit. It's about a red, white, and blue Brexit and it's the right Brexit, the right deal for

Britain.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCLAUGHLIN: Now Barnier for his part was asked about a hard Brexit and he responded by saying, well, I don't know what a hard or soft Brexit is, I

know what a Brexit is and he said a Brexit is clear, ordered, and within guidelines. So we're seeing both sides trying to define exactly what

Brexit means there -- Hala.

GORANI: All right, we continue our coverage. Ben Wedeman is in Rome, but I want to get to Melissa Bell in Paris, and of course, the Prime Minister

Manuel Valls, there has said he is running for president. We know the former economy minister is as well. We had a primary on the right.

Everyone jockeying for position as this populist sort of wave continues to roll across Europe. What exactly -- how are these politicians hoping to

protect themselves and their jobs? They're establishment politicians by definition.

MELISSA BELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They are establishment politicians, all hoping that they will either cling on to the power they've held over the

course of the last five years, Hala, or gain it as a result of this reshuffling of the cards.

And it is a sense that we have here in France that something is happening. We heard from Francois Fillon over the course of the last few weeks as he

came from nowhere to take the leadership of the main conservative party here in France, the Republican Party.

His campaign manager telling CNN in private that he felt there was something going on that they had not quite been able to put their finger

on. Now they are hoping that he is going to be in the best position to capitalize from that.

He is not a populist himself, but he does represent a real rupture with what went before. He's calling for a massive shake up, for instance, in

the French economy and offering to the French possibly what is, Hala, the biggest shake up of the French economy that's ever been put before the

French (inaudible).

Plus he is a social conservative. He is in favor of things like abortion, closing France's borders. He's against gay marriage. All things that tap

into that return to the right, and that rejection of the elites and of that liberal consensus that has prevailed at least here in France over the

course of the last five years.

Now the man who's threatened by that mood of course is the man who is hoping to take the socialist party into the election, Manuel Valls, he

announced last night his candidacy and here is what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MANUEL VALLS, FORMER FRENCH PRIME MINISTER (through translator): I will be a candidate for presidency because France needs to bring all of its weight

in a world that is no longer what it used to be at all. Terrorism, climate change, globalization's negative consequences, the weakening of Europe and

the rise of the far right.

I want an independent France. Independent and inflexible on their values when facing the China of Xi Jinping, the Russia of Vladimir Putin, the

America of Donald Trump, and the Turkey of Recep Erdogan.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BELL: Manuel Valls announcing there his resignation as the country's prime minister last night. Today we have a new one here and that is Bernard

Cazeneuve, and of course, Manuel Valls made an interesting plea to the French left there as he announced that he was standing in the primary that

will decide by the end of January, Hala, who will lead the Socialist Party at the election.

But as he said just then he feels that he is very much threatened by the right possibly Fillon, but of course, by the far right, Marine Le Pen, who

definitely believes that her time has come.

GORANI: And Ben Wedeman in Rome now. Of course, we have covered that referendum. You covered it on Sunday that signaled such a terrible defeat

for Matteo Renzi who will be stepping down. But we are getting more surprising details on who overwhelmingly voted against these reform plans

and therefore against the prime minister. Not necessarily older people as we saw with Brexit.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: No. In fact, Hala, older people voted more than 50 percent in favor of the Constitutional

amendments, 60 percent to 40 percent voted no nationwide. But if you look at the youth vote, people between the ages of 18 and 24, a stunning 80

percent voted no.

Keep in mind, of course, Italy has a current youth unemployment of 37.1 percent. So young people are intensely angry over the fact that the

government of Matteo Renzi, which was the youngest cabinet in Italian history. The Italian prime minister is 41 years old was unable to address

their very obvious demands, which is jobs, jobs, and jobs.

[15:10:07]We have covered Italians who are trying to learn German to find work in Germany. Thousands of Italians have gone to the U.K. to find work

there. Here in Italy the economy has not grown since the late 1990s. Young people simply are giving up on the government, the establishment, the

status quo, when it comes to finding them meaningful and lasting employment -- Hala.

GORANI: By the way, what is public opinion generally speaking with regards to Europe in Italy? Let's say if a referendum was held in Italy in or out

of the E.U. Is there a lot of anti-E.U. sentiments in that country?

WEDEMAN: Well, it's nuanced. For instance, people are very unhappy with the euro which really wasn't a good deal for Italy at all. It was much

better for instance with Germany. People are unhappy with how the E.U. handled the migrant crisis. Basically, the Italians field that they are on

the front lines. They have taken more than 170,000 migrants and refugees this year alone and they have very little in direct assistance from the

European Union.

On the other hand, Italians are very European in their outlook. Italy was one of the original participants in the initial experiments with European

unity. So they are in favor of that, but they feel like perhaps people in Britain that they have not gotten a good deal.

Now there has been talk about pulling out of the euro zone, but pulling out of the E.U., most Italians probably would vote against as dramatic an exit

as Brexit was -- Hala.

GORANI: All right, thanks very much. A Europe wide look for all of our viewers here at this anti-establishment surge. Melissa Bell is in Paris,

Ben Wedeman is in Rome and Erin McLaughlin is right here in London. Thanks to all of you.

There are no patterns, really. Younger people voting against the constitutional reforms in Europe. Older people voting in favor of Brexit.

Women not necessarily voting for Hillary Clinton in the U.S. electoral campaign there.

We will be covering these western democracies closely in 2017 as nations go to the polls in very crucial elections across the continent. First up, the

Netherlands in March. France picks its new president in two votes, one in April and one in May. Germany also votes, that date is still yet to be

decided.

In each of these countries, the right wing is pushing establishment parties, but sometimes there are left-leaning populist movements. As I

said there are no rules and no patterns here, and that is what is making politics in 2016 and potentially in 2017 so unpredictable.

All right, let's turn our attention sadly to something that has become more and more predictable. That is the misery of the Syrian people. The Syrian

Army is making some pretty serious gains in Eastern Aleppo with help from Russia.

State media says multiple neighborhoods have been captured and rebel-held districts could be on the verge of collapse. Tens of thousands of

civilians are trapped in the area.

Fred Pleitgen joins me now live from that Syrian city with more on one particular resident of Aleppo that has captured the attention of the world

-- Fred.

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, you're absolutely right, Hala. Certainly we have been seeing these massive gains

that the Syrian military has been making over the past couple of days and literally only a couple of minutes before we went to air here.

The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights announced that the Syrian military had now taken away 75 percent of the area that was held by the opposition.

Now of course, there is a large scale offensive by the Syrian Army going on.

But they're also getting a lot of help from the Russians and those Russians on the ground are more and more visible. Here is what we saw when we went

to a front line district.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PLEITGEN (voice-over): As an aid worker tries to comfort children with humor in a former Aleppo battleground district, only a few yards away,

Russian soldiers in a serious mood embedded with the Syrian Army trying to push rebels out of the whole city. Government soldiers not shy to praise

(inaudible) involvement.

The Russians are our brothers, he says, their superior technology and airstrikes have made all of the difference for us sweeping these areas.

The Syrian Army seems on the verge of ousting rebels from all of Aleppo, but only a little over a year ago it seemed Bashar Al-Assad's military

might collapse.

Then Russia entered the conflict in late 2015 quickly changing the tide and becoming a power broker in the Middle East signaling diplomacy in Syria

will only happen on its terms not Americas.

[15:15:05]SERGEY LAVROV, RUSSIAN FOREIGN MINISTER (through translator): John Kerr at our meeting in Rome relayed the American proposals which were

in line with approaches long defended by experts involved in conversations with the Americans.

PLEITGEN: A heavy-handed approach and amounting civilian death toll had lead the U.S. and the U.N. to call for investigations into possible Russian

war crimes in Syria. A claim the kremlin denies. The Russians starting their own efforts to win hearts and minds.

(on camera): The Russians are showing that they are taking much of the initiative in the battle for Aleppo not just supporting the forces of

Syrian President Bashir Al-Assad, but also by providing aid like this massive convoy that's about to head into the eastern districts of Aleppo.

(voice-over): The aid comes with a message. Russia has always been doing this work of offering aid for those who need it, this commanders says, we

help anyone who is in need.

And that message does resonate with some people here like Mustafa (inaudible) who we found cleaning up what is left of his belongings after

the rebels lost control of this district.

We are very grateful to the Russians and to Comrade Putin, he says, the Russians will never let us down. But Russia's new foreign policy prowess

comes at a price.

On Monday, several Russian military medics were killed and wounded when a mortar struck their mobile clinic, a reminder of the dangers of Moscow-

Syria engagement even as the momentum on the battlefield is going their way.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PLEITGEN: And as the momentum continues to go both Russia and the Syrian government's way, one of the things that virtually no one here is talking

about anymore on the ground is a possible success of diplomacy.

Certainly being here in Aleppo, seeing how fierce this offensive is being led and you know, we were kept awake pretty much all of last night because

there was such heavy fighting going on very close to where we were.

It really looks as though the Syrian military has a sense of urgency where they want to try and take away the rest of the areas that the rebels hold

as fast as possible -- Hala.

GORANI: All right, it sure seems like it. Thanks very much, Fred Pleitgen is in Aleppo this evening.

Syria is just one of the many foreign policy challenges facing the world. Still to come, we'll look at how President-elect Donald Trump is going to

deal with that and the Middle East including an emboldened Iran worried about the faith of its nuclear deal. President Rouhani's words of warning

are coming up next. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GORANI: Aerospace giant, Boeing, is responding to comments by U.S. President-elect Donald Trump calling for a government order for a new

presidential jet to be canceled, he tweeted it.

[15:20:02]Boeing says it currently has just $170 million contract to determine the capabilities of a new Air Force One and the Air Force has not

yet place a formal order. Here's what Trump said about the cost of the plane.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT-ELECT: Well, the plane is totally out of control. It's going to be over $4 billion for Air Force One program and I

think it's ridiculous. I think Boeing is doing a little bit of a number. We want Boeing to make a lot of money, but not that much money. OK, thank

you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GORANI: All right, well, by the way, after he tweeted it out that you know, it would cost billions to get this Air Force One contract fulfilled.

That these programs cost too much money, well, Boeing shares took a hit.

We are going to move from Donald Trump's domestic concerns to his foreign policy agenda because similarly to that Boeing tweet, Donald Trump has

tweeted out things and made announcements that have raised some eyebrows around the world.

So he's still only president-elect. He is not in office yet. Let's look ahead to the conflicts and challenges that he'll be facing. Let's bring in

Aaron David Miller out of Washington. He is the vice president for New Initiatives and a distinguished scholar at the Woodrow Wilson International

Center. Thanks for being with us, Aaron David Miller.

Let's talk a little bit, we have a graphic here with the potential secretary of state picks. We know that Romney had dinner with Donald

Trump. We see Rudy Giuliani, though, there are reports he might be fading, Corker, Petraeus as well.

Some reports that maybe he is not as much in the running. We are seeing Huntsman and Bolton, among other names. What do you make of this kind of

like selection process that Donald Trump is managing right now as president-elect?

AARON DAVID MILLER, DISTINGUISHED SCHOLAR, WOODROW WILSON INTERNATIONAL CENTER: You know, I worked for half a dozen secretaries of state, Schultz

to Powell. I don't think I have seen a selection process for secretary of state that has been this political and this publicized. Usually these

things are done in a quiet form.

The fact that they have so many different kinds of candidates could be a positive in the sense that you're essentially looking at a variety of

different kinds of personalities with different set of resumes.

But it also probably suggest a certain amount of indecision. Whoever is chosen, though, really needs to have I think three core qualities to be

effective and consequential.

One is a relationship with the president, if you don't have one of those, extremely difficult, it seems to me, to be effective in Washington and

abroad. Second, the kind of persona, which is flexible and pragmatic and allows you to play any number of different rules because secretaries of

state have to play in negotiations managing (inaudible) crises, a whole host rules.

And finally you really do need to have a sense of what I call the negotiator's mindset because consequential secretaries of state are

designed and setup and empowered to solve problems. I think it will be fascinating frankly for all kinds of reasons to see where the secretary of

state sweepstakes ultimately comes out.

GORANI: Right, well he calls them finalists, which is kind of interesting, but who do you based on what you think are the three core qualities

required of that list --

MILLER: Rule number one, Hala, for survival in Washington particularly having worked for Republicans and Democrats, don't speculate on personality

choices, particularly before that individual is chosen. Once there is a selection, I am happy to talk to you about my assessment having worked for

a half dozen. But I think at this stage, it is really missing, frankly misinformed speculation.

GORANI: Now let's talk a little bit, though, about the Middle East. That is your area of expertise and specialty and where you have so much

experience. Based on what you've heard Donald Trump say about the Middle East. I'm talking Syria, ISIS, Israel, and what you've read on his Twitter

feed, what kind of president will he be with regards to that region?

MILLER: You know, if you've watched his campaign rally last Thursday in which he announced more or less spontaneously that Jim Mattis will be the

secretary of defense, he actually referred to -- he used the phrase new foreign policy. And the elements of that new foreign policy, not just in

the region, but they certainly apply to the Middle East, is number one, not to pursue nation building. I think you will see a very risk averse as

opposed to a very risk ready president.

GORANI: But that is not different from President Obama.

MILLER: Precisely and that's I think the point I'm going to make because the second element of the new foreign policy was to avoid anything and even

remotely resembled changing governments let alone regime change and internal involvement in the affairs of other countries.

That's a second element. I think frankly although it may be counter intuitive because the style is certainly different and on certain issues

like Iran and the pursuit of Israeli-Palestinian peace, I think there will be differences.

But I think on the broad outlines, I see an America first, as Donald Trump defines it, as being, in many restricts quite insular and quite risk averse

when it comes to looking at the United States as the indispensable power.

I think the current president may have come to office with the notion that the U.S. could solve a lot of problems, and by year two or three, the

transforming of character Barack Obama had become a transactor.

I think you will see a lot of transaction rather than quote/unquote "transformation" and it involves a lot of projection of American military

forces and resources abroad. Now that could change. If circumstance change, we are attacked again, Paris or Brussels-style attack here.

Things happen. You have North Korea with nukes. You have a very nervous China as a consequence of Mr. Trump taking the call from President Tsai.

So there are any number of variables that (inaudible) from policy.

But I think listening to him, focusing on the fact that I think he will by and large going to be a domestic president, committed to a certain kind of

agenda, I think that will put a premium on his form policy appointments.

Mike Flynn, national security advisor, Jim Mattis, secretary of defense, and of course, whoever wins the secretary of state sweepstakes. They may

be given quite a lot of discretion.

GORANI: Yes, we will see, although, we know that Donald Trump likes to make his own announcements sometimes in a very unpredictable way. Thanks

very much, Aaron David Miller. Always a pleasure talking to you.

We were talking foreign policy. Iran in particular will be a challenge from President-elect Trump, although, it is issuing a warning. President

Hassan Rouhani says Tehran will not let Trump rip up its nuclear deal with Washington.

During his campaign, Trump called the deal one of the worst ever negotiated and pledged to rework it. Iran is also warning the U.S. not to move

forward with an extension of economic sanctions.

Let's get some perspective on all this now. Our diplomatic editor, Nic Robertson, is here. So Hassan Rouhani is saying you're not going to rip up

this deal. What kind of leverage do they have?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: The kind of leverage they might have would be -- this is something that's been (inaudible).

They could decide to reactivate their centrifuges and increase their ability to produce enriched uranium.

I shortened that pass to a bomb, which the sanctions were, you know, put in place or the relief of the sanctions was put in place to encourage them not

to do that.

Let's talk for on second about this sanctions extension. You know, when Secretary of State John Kerry was trying to sell the idea to the American

people, why this would work was because he had the snapped back on sanctions.

He waved these sanctions that are now being extended so they could be snapped back on if Iran broke the agreement. So what the extension does is

it allows United States to be able to snap those sanctions back on.

It is a sort of control over Iran is being extended, but Iran complains that the other sanctions in that bucket not related to the nuclear deal

that hurt its business --

GORANI: But does Iran truly believe -- Hassan Rouhani truly believe or is concerned that once in the oval office, then President Trump will rip up

deal and we'll be back to the sanctions regime and back to the way things were before?

ROBERTSON: From the get go. You know --

GORANI: Is that a real concern or are they also bluffing?

ROBERTSON: Their concern started the day Donald Trump was elected. The day it was announced. I mean, if you look at their tweets, what the

foreign minister said, this deal made by the United States can't be broken and then they were sort of starting to say the United States was always the

enemy.

What the president said today is what the foreign minister said last week. It's what the supreme leader of Iran said two weeks ago and it has all been

on the same theme. We will react if the sanctions are extended.

That is the sort of language he used when essentially going back to bargaining table again and said, look, we don't know what you're going to

do and who you are --

GORANI: But do they restart their program being --

ROBERTSON: (Inaudible).

GORANI: -- but then Europe will slap sanctions back on, can they afford sanctions from the U.S.?

ROBERTSON: If we listen to what the former prime minister, he said yesterday he will be firm on Donald Trump as well as Turkey. There is a

concern in Europe about where Donald Trump is going to go. We heard as well from Angela Merkel hinting at the same thing.

The United States has to decide where it is going on a number of big issues. So the Europeans may not be in lock step on that. There is --

[15:30:04] GORANI: Yes.

ROBERTSON: Yes.

GORANI: There's the thing.

ROBERTSON: There's a sort of --

GORANI: We've got to say former Prime Minister Manuel Valls.

ROBERTSON: Because he stepped down.

GORANI: Former Prime Minister Matteo Renzi. If you blink, you miss yet another big political earthquake.

ROBERTSON: But you will wave about --

GORANI: Yes, exactly. He's hoping to be President. Thanks very much, Nic Robertson, as always.

Coming up, has the Obama presidency made America safer? What about American foreign policy? He's going to be giving a major speech in the

next hour. We'll have that conversation coming up next. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GORANI: German Chancellor Angela Merkel has called for a ban on full-face veils. Speaking to a conference of her Christian Democratic Union Party,

she said the face coverings were not appropriate in Germany. Ms. Merkel, who plans to seek a fourth term, has faced a backlash over her open-door

refugee policy. She's making the statement just a few days after announcing she would run again.

France has a new Prime Minister. The former Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve has been appointed to the post. Now, he has been appointed

because he is taking over for Manuel Valls, this man, who stepped down because he's running for President. Valls jumped into the race when the

current President, Francois Hollande, decided not to run.

A British court has convicted a 26-year-old man of passing cash to this man, accused Brussels Airport attacker Mohamed Abrini. Zakaria Boufassil

was found guilty of giving Abrini about $3,800 during a secret meeting in a park in Birmingham.

Donald Trump is tweeting again. He says that a Japanese conglomerate has agreed to invest $50 billion in America. The President-elect says the deal

with SoftBank would not have happened without him. He tweeted the news at about the same time he met with the CEO at Trump Tower.

Barack Obama is about to tell the American people how his counterterror policies have kept them safe even as his successor threatens to reverse

some of them. In one of his last major speeches, the President is expected to continue his call for the closure of Guantanamo Bay. That was a

campaign promise. He didn't get that done. He's failed to do it, and of course, he's going to be discussing the issue of torture. But, soon,

Donald Trump will be in the White House and he's promised to bring back waterboarding and resume sending people to the controversial naval prison.

So what is the state of America eight years into the Obama presidency? Retired U.S. Air Force Colonel and CNN Military Analyst, Cedric Leighton,

joins me from Washington.

[15:35:03] Thanks very much for being with us. So Barack Obama is going to want to sort of defend his legacy but also, very pointedly, bring up some

of the campaign issues raised by Donald Trump regarding Guantanamo Bay, regarding torture. What are your expectations?

COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON (Ret), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, I think, Hala, that he will definitely do that. He'll also seek to justify his place in

history. And so when President Obama gives his speech within, I guess, the next hour in Florida, he is going to be working not only the crowd, but

he's also going to be speaking to the history books. And when he does that, he is going to say that we have had some notable successes in the war

on terror. He also believes that those successes are going to be further refined by the activities that are going on in Iraq and in, eventually,

Syria.

So he will justify what he's done so far, and he will try to make it as much of a justification of his policies as well as the repudiation of, in

essence, the Bush administration and what will be the Trump administration.

GORANI: Yes. But if you look at the situation in the Middle East right now with ISIS, OK, on the back foot militarily. You could argue Mosul is

surrounded, et cetera, but ISIS certainly not defeated. We have an absolute disaster in Syria with Russia calling the shots as it supports the

Assad regime in its bombing campaign of those rebel-held areas in Aleppo. Where has the United States left its mark on the current situation in the

Middle East?

LEIGHTON: Well, this is exactly why President Obama's legacy is going to be so complex and so complicated because it is not a clean case of

unlimited success. Yes, Osama bin Laden was killed under his watch, but, you're absolutely right to point out the absolutely atrocious situation in

Syria.

In essence, Syria is Obama's version of Rwanda. You have to what amounts to a mass genocide that is going on in that country and the way in which

that has been exacerbated. That whole situation has gotten so much worse. That makes it really difficult for him to claim complete victory as part of

his legacy as a foreign policy President. So these are going to be the weak points in anything that he seeks to justify. It's also going to be

extremely hard for the Trump administration, no matter how much they want to get involved in Syria -- how little they want to get involved in Syria.

GORANI: Yes.

LEIGHTON: It's going to be extremely hard for them to find a way forward given the current situation on the ground, particularly in Aleppo.

GORANI: We were speaking with Aaron David Miller, the former Middle East convoy who, I'm sure, you're familiar with, and one of the things he said

is that the Trump presidency might, in fact, mirror the Obama presidency, the foreign policy, in terms of non-intervention, certainly shying away

from, quote/unquote, "nation building." But doing nothing or doing little is also a form of foreign policy that has its own effect.

So with that in mind, how will Syria develop, in your opinion, under a Trump presidency?

LEIGHTON: Well, I think it's going to be a very difficult thing for Mr. Trump to get his arms around because during the campaign, he very

explicitly said, let's leave Syria to the Russians and to the Assad regime because they're fighting ISIS, to quote him. Yes, I think he's beginning

to see that it's a much more complex than that, and in fact, the Russians are not fighting ISIS and Syrian of Bashar al-Assad is not fighting ISIS.

So once he figures that out and hopefully, he'll figure that out, that then --

GORANI: You think he hasn't figured that out yet or --

LEIGHTON: Well, I'm questioning whether he actually has figured it out because his pronouncements have not quite jived with that reality that we

see on the ground. And I think he is beginning, perhaps, to understand it, but will he understand it enough to actually on it? That's really the big

question for not only America, but for the world.

GORANI: All right. Cedric Leighton, thank you, sir, for being with us. We really appreciate your time on CNN. And we'll have that speech from

President Obama right here live in the next hour, so do stay tuned for that and we'll have analysis after it is over.

Now, tech is teaming up to take on terror. Facebook, Twitter, Microsoft, Google, YouTube -- this is what they're trying to do. They're setting up a

shared database to track and remove terrorist content or content promoting terrorist activity. It will contain the digital fingerprints of the images

and videos allowing the firms to identify potential terror material quicker. Jose Pagliery has been following this story and he joins me now

live from New York.

How would this work, then, Jose?

JOSE PAGLIERY, CNNMONEY INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Hi, Hala. The idea here is that when ISIS and other terrorist organizations put videos and

propaganda and recruitment efforts online, these tech companies have not been quick enough to pull it down. And so the way that this would is that

these companies, each on their own, would tag videos, tag messages from ISIS and others, and give it a digital finger print.

[15:40:06] Now, they'll share that finger print with other companies that are taking part in this so that, for instance, if ISIS uploads a video to

YouTube, YouTube finds it, gives it a marking and then tells Facebook and Twitter and Microsoft, hey, look, if this data pops up on your networks,

take it down too. And so it makes it much easier for them to, en masse, identify this stuff and pull it down quickly.

GORANI: All right. And now, how has social media been used by some of these organizations or people and groups trying to further and promote this

ideology?

PAGLIERY: That's very differently really. Twitter is a place where Jihadists can share their message and try to recruit others. They pull

people, a lot of followers, on to one account, and then they have D.M., private direct message conversations, with the people who are interested in

carrying out ISIS' mission in different countries.

With Facebook, sort of similar. They use this platform sort of as a soap box to post pictures and recruitment efforts and then get people to join

them.

Microsoft and YouTube are places where they use their servers to upload videos that show -- we've seen these propaganda videos, their violent

videos, where they make, you know, demands on the U.S. and the E.U.

And so each of these networks has a different responsibility here in how they've been leveraged by ISIS and others, and so each of them will be

tackling these problems slightly differently. The idea here, though, is that this is an opportunity for them to start taking things down quickly.

GORANI: But there's always the concern, it always exists, that if you start removing content, you're attacking, potentially, freedom of

expression.

PAGLIERY: Sure.

GORANI: That as much as you think some of these things are distasteful and certainly, you don't share these opinions, that people should be allowed to

voice them. I mean, I'm not talking calling on people to commit acts of violence, but just generally speaking, opinions.

PAGLIERY: Right. Right, right. And so we've seen some of these before, right? So these approach that these companies are taking, they've taken

before with child pornography. They've taken it before with piracy.

And actually, the argument that you brought up has been brought up by those who are stopping the fight against online privacy because they say, hey,

look, I'm sharing a song, I'm sharing a video. I have a right to do this. And so YouTube does get criticized quite a bit for taking down videos or

blocking access to videos that free activists would say should still be up.

I think there's a clear line here, though, because when ISIS and other terrorist organizations put up recruitment videos or propaganda, I think

that the line is pretty clear there. So this might be done.

GORANI: Yes. All right. Again, no, I think some people would say, what if I share some opinion that is, you know, shocking --

PAGLIERY: I don't --

GORANI: -- and distasteful.

PAGLIERY: Right.

GORANI: Not that an organization is kind of posting some of its propaganda content.

PAGLIERY: Right, and I don't think that's what they're targeting. They're really targeting those violent videos that ISIS puts up that go viral, you

know, very quickly.

GORANI: Yes.

PAGLIERY: And they're trying to stop, they're trying to limit, the spread of that sort of material.

GORANI: Yes. And I don't think anybody can argue that that's not a good thing. Thanks very much, Jose Pagliery.

And don't forget, you can check out our Facebook page, facebook.com/halagoranicnn, and you can check out some of our show content

there. This is THE WORLD RIGHT NOW.

Is Donald Trump running the greatest reality show on earth? We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:45:22] GORANI: Like any great reality show, the Trump transition features a cast of interesting characters, plot twists, and suspense.

However, this one isn't selecting the next apprentice. The stakes for the President-elect could not be higher. Deborah Feyerick have that story from

New York.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It is arguably the greatest political reality show of all time, hosted by a one-time reality T.V. star,

now President-elect, facing very real responsibilities. Like all great reality shows, the Trump transition features alliances, plot twists, and of

course, cliff hangers, says Hollywood writer/director Marti Noxon.

MARTI NOXON, CO-CREATOR, UNREAL: The real part of the art of it is creating the right amount of suspense, the right amount of drama to keep

people engaged, and watching this, you know, process of transitioning the government, it feels like it's being plotted really meticulously.

FEYERICK: Rather than official press conferences, contestants parade past a golden backdrop, a live set as cameras roll on potential Cabinet

secretaries and advisers before they ascend to the inner sanctum. Some contestants enter the news equivalent of a soul-searching confessional

booth, an apology and penance for former CIA Director David Petraeus for mishandling classified information.

GEN. DAVID PETRAEUS (Ret), FORMER DIRECTOR, CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY: I apologized for it, I paid a very heavy price for it, and I've learned from

it.

FEYERICK: And it's not just people, it's places. Take China and Taiwan, Taiwan getting in the first phone call and wrangling its parent nation,

China. Trump justifying upending decades of diplomatic protocol, tweeting, "Taiwan called me."

BRIAN STELTER, CNNMONEY SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Trump is our first reality T.V. President-elect. He knows how to give America something worth

watching.

FEYERICK: Immunity challenges are also in play. Early Trump supporters Chris Christie and Rudy Giuliani seemed to have a White House job virtually

in the bag. But, Christie, the rival turned ally left the island. Trump's son-in-law, Jared Kushner, reportedly banishing Christie for convicting his

father on tax evasion and illegal campaign donations. And reportedly failing to let him out 28 days early, according to "Vanity Fair."

Meantime, Rudy Giuliani's hope for Secretary of State seems to be fading in a growing pool of contenders, the President-elect recently taking a fresh

look at Mitt Romney, "Bachelor" style, at a candlelit dinner. Trump adviser, Kellyanne Conway, taking her fight against Romney public.

KELLYANNE CONWAY, SENIOR ADVISER TO PRESIDENT-ELECT DONALD TRUMP: He went so far out of his way to hurt Donald Trump.

FEYERICK: Which may explain Romney rival, John Huntsman, a fellow billionaire, appearing so quickly on scene. Catch phrases on Trump's

"Apprentice" reality show --

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: You're fired.

FEYERICK: -- giving way to new ones.

TRUMP: Disaster. Perry Disaster. All, like, disasters.

NOXON: Donald Trump has cast himself as the President-elect and he's an ideal T.V. villain.

FEYERICK: The reality show quality of the Trump transition leaving a divided nation with cliff hangers, from initially threatening not to accept

the final election results if he lost --

TRUMP: -- at the time. I'll keep you in suspense.

FEYERICK: -- to seducing his audience and winning them over.

NOXON: On television, sort of the worst thing that happens is that you disappear, you get voted off the island or you get fired. But, you know,

what's happening right now has real and potentially dire consequences.

FEYERICK: Deborah Feyerick, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GORANI: And if you are at CNN, Van Jones looks back at what exactly happened in that 2016 election for a CNN special, "THE MESSY TRUTH."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: So here we are in Ohio. As you know, Ohio went for Trump. We're going to go to one of the bluest

counties, Trimble County, which since 1976 has always voted for the Democrat, until this year. And they voted for Trump. I'm baffled. I'm

bewildered. We got to figure it out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GORANI: Well, you can watch that and there is a town hall with special guests, Michael Moore, Rick Santorum, and Ana Navarro. "THE MESSY TRUTH

WITH VAN JONES" will air 8:00 p.m., Wednesday in London on CNN.

[15:49:36] Coming up, David Bowie's final album is up for four Grammy awards, but his family could still be disappointed. We'll tell you why.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GORANI: The late British rocker, David Bowie, received a Lifetime Achievement Grammy back in 2006. And 11 years later, his final album is up

for four different posthumous awards, including Best Alternative Music Album. But surprisingly, though, the album, "Blackstar," failed to get

Grammy nods in any of the major categories like Album or Song of the Year.

You all remember, of course, 2016 took some of our biggest stars and beloved musicians and actors and actresses. And David Bowie himself died

of liver cancer a few months ago.

And it's probably no surprise that Beyonce and Adele swept the nominations. The singers will duke it out for Record of the Year, Song of the Year,

Album of the Year. Lisa Respers France joins me now live from CNN center.

So, once again, Beyonce and Adele. They're always the ones to get the most nominations, Lisa.

LISA RESPERS FRANCE, CNNMONEY SENIOR WRITER, MEDIA AND ENTERTAINMENT: Absolutely, and they're both coming off of amazing tours this year.

Beyonce, actually, is poised to possibly make history. She may become the most award-winning female artist at the Grammys. She has already won 20.

She's nominated for nine this time around. And if she wins all nine, she'll surpass singer Alison Krauss who currently holds the record with 27.

GORANI: It's interesting because Alison Krauss is the most sort of Grammy- winning artist but not necessarily a household name.

FRANCE: No.

GORANI: But she certainly gets those awards. Let's talk a little bit about David Bowie's nominations.

FRANCE: Yes. You know, David Bowie's nominations, they felt like a bit of a snub to a lot of his fans. Fans were really looking for him to, at the

very least, have his "Blackstar" album be nominated as Album of the Year and it was not.

GORANI: All right. And --

FRANCE: Yes, so folks are upset.

GORANI: Yes. But despite that, four, I believe, Grammy nominations for Bowie?

FRANCE: Yes. And I mean, Alternative Album, you know, music is nothing to sneeze at all, you know, and he is being recognized. It's just that people

felt that he was a sentimental favorite because we lost him this year.

GORANI: Right. And because it would have --

FRANCE: And even --

GORANI: I was going to say, it would have been seen as sort of like celebrating his legacy, I guess.

FRANCE: Absolutely. And it was a critically acclaimed album which also was able to translate into commercial success, which, you know, often

times, usually, means that it's going to get a big nomination, and it didn't.

GORANI: And what about the other big standout nominations?

FRANCE: Well, coming in behind Beyonce, we have Kanye West and Rihanna and Drake, tied with eight nominations. And then Chance the Rapper, who

released his album this year, streaming only. He came in with seven new nominations, including Best New Artist. And this was a first for him. I

mean, he's brand new. Not to fans, fans have known of him for a while, but he is pretty new. He had his breakout year this year, so he did really

well. People are really excited about him and especially because the rules have been changed this year to allow for streaming music to be eligible.

GORANI: All right. Very -- well, it's kind of you have to catch up with the future there at some point.

FRANCE: Absolutely.

GORANI: We'll see if Kanye, A, if he shows up -- we presume that he will - - and, B, what kind of -- I don't know what antics he'll be up to. He always has something up his sleeves.

FRANCE: Very true.

GORANI: Lisa Respers France, thanks very much.

[15:54:35] This has been THE WORLD RIGHT NOW. Thanks for watching. Of course, we'll be covering President Obama's speech next hour, and that's

why we're joining "THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER" for that coverage now. Stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: In fact, the Vice President-elect Mike Pence is here. And at any moment, we will see President Barack Obama walk up on

stage. He's at MacDill Air Force Base in Tampa, Florida. He will defend his doctrine and explain how he's fought terrorism abroad and here in the

United States.

This morning, his soon to be replacement, President-elect Donald Trump, had tweeted about curbing, quote, "out of control defense costs and government

costs." And Mr. Trump said he's going to start, he says, by cancelling a contract with Boeing, the largest exporter in the United States. Let's go

to CNN's Senior Washington Correspondent Jeff Zeleny now.

And, Jeff, you're in Fayetteville, North Carolina Mr. Trump is set to hold a "Thank you" rally this evening. The President-elect creating something

of a stir this morning by tweeting about Boeing.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: He did, indeed, Jake. He is, you know, really on his effort here to create momentum, that he is,

A, creating jobs, and, B, watching out, you know, for bloated spending. And by going after Boeing, specifically singling out an American company

here, is certainly creating waves.

He said that Boeing wants to spend $4 billion to make that new Air Force One. Well, the Boeing Company says they do not know where that number came

from, and the Boeing Company says they will do what they can to, A, make a good airplane for the next president, most likely, and, you know, do it as

efficiently as possible.

But, Jake, certainly, an interesting series of events at Trump Tower as Donald Trump, quite literally, through his showmanship unique to himself,

is trying to create the sense here that he is creating jobs and bringing investment. Of course, we have to look at the fine print of all these

details and there is no fine print so far, Jake.

TAPPER: All right. Jeff Zeleny in Fayetteville, North Carolina. Thank you so much. Joining me to talk about this and much, much more is Vice

President-elect Mike Pence.

Thanks so much for being here. Good to see you.

MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: Good to be back, Jake. Good to see you.

TAPPER: The Election Day was four weeks ago today.

PENCE: It's hard to believe.

TAPPER: Congratulations.

PENCE: Thank you very much. It's very humbling. It's hard to believe it's already been four weeks, but in many ways, for all of the progress we

made in the course of this transition, which is moving at a historic and record pace. I mean, this transition, actually, is now -- it's been

certified. President-elect Trump is moving faster than any president-elect has in naming Cabinet officials for the last 40 years. It's exciting to be

a part of it.

TAPPER: So let's talk about the number one item on the news right now, which is the President-elect starting to talk about cancelling the Boeing

contract. That's how he began his day. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Well, the plane is totally out of control. It's going to be over $4 billion for the Air Force One program, and I think it's ridiculous. I

think Boeing is doing a little bit of a number. We want Boeing to make a lot of money, but not that much money.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Now, there's no question that there should be more oversight over these contracts, but I guess critics are wondering, is this the best way to

do it? The President-elect said that, the Boeing stock took a big hit. It's rebounded but it took a big hit before the markets opened. It's an

American company, the biggest exporter in the United States. It employs 150,000 people, most of them in this country.

[16:00:11] I guess the first question is, where does the $4 billion figure come from because that's --

END