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Tillerson under Serious Consideration; Giuliani Out of Running for Secretary of State; Ryan Meets with Trump; Clinton on Fake News; Charleston Remembers the Tragic Day and Lives Lost. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired December 09, 2016 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[14:00:16] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everyone, I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you so much for being with me on this Friday afternoon.

We do have some major developments here breaking right now from the current president and the future one.

First, let's begin with Donald Trump ahead of a stop on his thank you tour. President-elect Trump just returned to the campaign trail, rallying voters, not for himself, but for the last Senate race in the nation. It's this runoff between Louisiana Republican John Kennedy, obviously who he's there and, you know, rooting for, over Democrat Foster Campbell.

And as President-elect Trump looks forward to tomorrow's election, President Obama has officially directed his teams to look back at the presidential election. He has specifically ordered this full review to investigate the influence of Russian hacking in the 2016 race. We'll have more on that in just a moment.

But first, to Louisiana, let's get to Ryan Nobles, who's there live in Baton Rouge following up on Trump's event there. He's a little late, Ryan Nobles. We're still waiting to hear from him, obviously stumping for the Republican there for Senate.

But let's begin with some new headlines we have adding to and taking away from secretary of state post. Go ahead.

RYAN NOBLES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Yes, Brooke, two major developments in the search for secretary of state, which has, of course, become the great palace drama in Washington, who will be the next secretary of state. And we're learning that the CEO of Exxon Mobil, Rex Tillerson, has moved in to serious consideration by President-elect Trump for that position.

Now, Tillerson is someone that Trump interviewed for this position a while ago. He was considered to be on the outside looking in. But apparently Trump is very intrigued by his world view and has now moved him into that upper tier of potential candidates.

And while Tillerson's moved to the front of the pack, we're also learning that former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani has moved to the back. In fact, he's out of consideration our source is telling us that the mayor has been told this week that he will not be the next secretary of state. So that is a very important development because he was still considered to be a front-runner, even within the last 24 to 48 hours.

Now, we should point out, he's out of consideration. Our sources telling us he will not be the next secretary of state so that is a very important development because he was still considered to be a front-runner even within the last 24 to 48 hours.

Now, we should point out that a final decision has not been made. This is something that the president-elect is still deliberating and that Mitt Romney, among others, is still considered to be a serious candidate. Now we're also learning that John Bolton, who is the former ambassador to the United Nations under George W. Bush, he's being considered for the position of deputy secretary of state and there's a possibility that next week Tillerson and Bolton could be announced as somewhat of a package deal to head up the State Department.

But, as you know, Brooke, this drama with secretary of state has gone back and forth for some time and we've never gotten a clear picture. So a lot could happen between now and when that official announcement has been made. But right now we're told to keep an eye on the name Rex Tillerson as a possible candidate as the next secretary of state.

Brooke.

BALDWIN: A lot of news on this Friday as we're watching and waiting for Donald Trump and listening to that play list. Amazing.

Ryan Nobles, thank you so much.

So far, by the way, no word of a reaction yet from Trump's team. Perhaps he'll speak about it when we hear from the next president there in Baton Rouge on this massive review of the election. But Donald Trump did just give an interview to "Time" after he was named the magazine's person of the year and he said this about Russians hacking into this election. This is what he said, quote, "I don't believe it. I don't believe they interfered." Short and sweet.

We've got some great political minds to talk through all of this. Kristen Soltis Anderson is a columnist for "The Washington Examiner." Also with us, CNN political director David Chalian, CNN national political reporter Maeve Reston and Carlos Watson, founder and CEO of OZY.

So great to have all of you on.

And, David Chalian, let me just kick it off with you. I mean I think what Ryan just mentioned, in addition to the name of Rex Tillerson as a possible state post, perhaps I think the headline is that Giuliani is out.

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, this is really quite a development because you know that we had seen over several weeks now since the election inside the transition that there were different factions when it looked like it was Giuliani and Romney as the top contenders and we saw sort of Kellyanne Conway on the Giuliani side and presenting the blowback that would exist from the grassroots on Romney, Giuliani the loyalist.

But on the other side, there was a heap of potential conflicts of interest, digging into all of Giuliani's private sector work, running into his paid speeches, his work overseas. In fact, a lot of the same criticisms that the Trump campaign leveled at Hillary Clinton for her tenure during her years as secretary of state. So although he, I'm sure, may have gotten confirmed in the end, Rudy Giuliani, it was going to be a bumpy road there and clearly Trump, as he expanded the search, Brooke, has been intrigued by others like Rex Tillerson.

[14:05:10] BALDWIN: And then it was the, was he, was he not, being Governor Romney, you know, reports that perhaps he was seen in spitting distance of Trump Tower as he was in town in New York giving his speech. Would he have met the new name -

MAEVE RESTON, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE) the dark horse.

BALDWIN: Right, exactly, Maeve. I mean what do - does this tell us anything about the direction he could be moving or just further adds confusion.

RESTON: Well, I think that he's - he's trying to make this as complex as possible for us to figure out what this signals are. I have been hearing from my sources certainly that Huntsman, you know, for a little while was rising as a candidate and also, of course, Bob Corker, that with Romney they certainly were considering him seriously, but there was a lot of concern about the blowback that you mentioned that they would get from their supporters. But it is so interesting the way that he is putting this cabinet together because it's - you know, he's having meetings with people like Scott Pruitt and choosing him as his choice for the EPA, yet also talking to Al Gore about climate change. And so it's very difficult to figure out what policy exactly he's thinking about forming at this point as he put this cabinet together.

What we do know is that it will be a huge repudiation of the Obama agenda. I mean that's been clear with virtually every pick so far and that's what we'll keep watching for.

BALDWIN: You mentioned an important word, "policy," and I think that also loops back to this important meeting he had with Speaker Ryan today. We'll get to that in a second. But just quickly to you, Kristen, just on Tillerson. We know he's the, you know, Exxon CEO. Tell me more about him and why Trump would be interested.

KRISTEN SOLTIS ANDERSON, "THE WASHINGTON EXAMINER": Well, as CEO of Exxon, he's had dealings in countless countries around the world. And what's fascinating is that Donald Trump, in running his campaign, you know, ran on the idea that, hey, you know, companies like Goldman Sachs, you know, big oil companies, they've had too much influence. You know, this kind of populist message that appealed to Bernie Sanders-type voters. And now in choosing his cabinet, he's willing to choose more than one person involved in - whether it's Goldman Sachs, Exxon's CEO, the sorts of folks that you might find at home in kind of any Republican administration, which is - which is no doubt sort of causing a lot of heartburn, I think, especially on the left.

I think the big question is, how much leash does Donald Trump have with his own supporters to say to the very people who said we need to get these elites to - we need to drain the swamp, if he's putting people in position who are very well qualified for them coming out of industries that are not politically popular, how much are his supporters still willing to give him - give him that leash to say, OK, you're picking the best people, we support you.

BALDWIN: Well, I think on that - and, Carlos, let me put this to you, although I'm stealing a line from my friend David Chalian earlier today when he said it's almost like, you know, the cabinet room has become the board room and he's picking all these, you know, billionaires, right, some of whom - who we heard from Trump last night saying he would, you know, he would only give them a dollar a year to work. Let's just play some sound. This was Trump last night on his thank you tour.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT-ELECT: And one newspaper criticized me. Why can't they have people of modest means? Because I want people that made a fortune because now they're negotiating with you. OK? It's no different than a great baseball player or a great golfier. We want the people that are going to bring - and they're so proud to do it. These people have given up fortunes of income in order to make a dollar a year. And they're so proud to do it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Carlos Watson, what do you make of the point he is making and, you know, hey, it's corporate sensibility. I mean does he have a point?

CARLOS WATSON, FOUNDER AND CEO, OZY: Well, it certainly seemed to strike a positive chord with his audience, the idea that America was struggling, that we were losing out in trade deals and so the argument that you're bringing on folks who have had some success with that, hence the Rex Tillerson conversation and others.

BALDWIN: Yes.

WATSON: But, you know, one of the interesting things, Brooke, I have not heard enough pushback about the fact that we are going to arguably go from the most diverse cabinet, the most representative cabinet in American history under President Obama, to clearly the least diverse cabinet. You know, 13 of the first 18 announcements are white men. Almost all are over the age of 50 or even 60. The average age is a full decade older. And that certainly doesn't disqualify people or say that the experience isn't there, but you do have to wonder, in an increasingly divided country, whether or not putting together that sort of team is going to allow you to, a, take advantage of all the best talent that the country has, and, b, whether or not you're going to be able to put together policies and programs and execute them well in a way that brings people together.

I haven't heard enough criticism of that and I think it's going to be a real worry because certainly if you were looking at successful business people, your choices aren't only men and your choices aren't only older white men. There's a - there's a wealth of people that you could choose from if, in fact, that's a key driver for what matters.

[14:10:14] BALDWIN: No, you're right to call it out. We talked about Linda McMahon this week as the fifth woman, but to your point about, you know, more mature white men, a lot of generals, potentially an admiral and a lot of billionaires, and what - how will they be able help, you know, working class America? I don't think we actually know the answer to that. But when it comes to policy, let me just play some sound, because as I mentioned a second ago, this is a very important meeting between the speaker of the House, Paul Ryan, and Mr. Trump at Trump Tower today. We - cameras caught Speaker Ryan on the way out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. PAUL RYAN (R), HOUSE SPEAKER: Very exciting meeting. I really enjoyed coming up here and meeting with the president-elect. We had a great meeting to talk about our transition. We're very excited about getting to work and hitting the ground running in 2017 to put this country back on track. Thanks, guys.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: You know, David Chalian, when I was watching that, I was thinking, is that sort Speaker Ryan saying, nothing to see here, move along, move along. But, you know, right?

CHALIAN: Very short - short on specifics there from the speaker. I actually do think, though, that that could have been - potentially been - and we'll get more reporting hopefully out of this in the hours and days ahead, Brooke, but potentially a critically important meeting. I know we're very fixated on each of these cabinet choices.

BALDWIN: The cabinet picks.

CHALIAN: But, remember, how much time do we spend once the administration's in place talking about the large segment of these cabinet secretaries? This is policy dictated by the White House -

BALDWIN: Yes.

CHALIAN: And a legislative agenda that has to move through The Hill. And so for the two of them - if they, you know, before Paul Ryan goes off on his break now that the House is out of session, for them to sort of come to terms about that priority order, what they're stacking up then on the 20th of January they're coming out of the gate, that - it will be very important to learn what that is.

BALDWIN: Carlos, do you agree?

RESTON: (INAUDIBLE) there were also so many things that they, you know, that they had disagreed about on the campaign trail. So it's going to be - the Capitol Hill really will be the most fascinating place to watch next year because there - you know, there's such a difference of opinion with Donald Trump among Republicans on trade, for example. How quickly does he move on immigration? What are the openings for that? And that's what's going to be the most fascinating story as we head into the new year.

BALDWIN: Yes.

ANDERSON: Yes.

RESTON: Not necessarily all these faces of the cabinet picks that we're looking at right now.

ANDERSON: Yes.

BALDWIN: Yes. You're totally - you're totally right.

And, actually, speaking of Capitol Hill, let me just pivot and move along because we - we heard from Hillary Clinton yesterday. You know, she was there as part of Senator Harry Reid's good-bye, but she made news talking about fake news, blatant falsehoods passed off online, you know, as truth, spread by these conspiracy theorists. Let's play a little clip of the former secretary of state.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON (D), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: The epidemic of malicious fake news and false propaganda that flooded social media over the past year, it's now clear that so-called fake news can have real world consequences. This isn't about politics or partisanship. Lives are at risk. Lives of ordinary people just trying to go about their days to do their jobs, contribute to their communities. It's a danger that must be addressed and addressed quickly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Carless and then Kristen, when she said, you know, fake news has real world consequences, obviously perhaps in reference to, you know, the recent shooting, but do you think she also might have been talking about herself and her loss?

WATSON: You know, no two ways about that. Not only fake news, but arguably thin news or bubble news I think is increasingly going to become a part of the conversation. What I wondered as I heard Secretary Clinton there at Harry Reid's good-bye is what kind of role she's going to play in the next year or two. Clearly there's a huge vacuum on the Democratic side that we haven't yet seen anyone step up and fill. It was interesting when President Obama won office in '08, very quickly Republicans coalesced around a few leaders and clearly had strong spokespeople on Capitol Hill. But even with the DNC race for leadership there and even with a former candidate like Bernie Sanders still in the Senate, I think Democrats are a little bereft of that. It will be interesting, though, as you begin to see some of the 2020 run efforts start rolling with people like Governor Andrew Cuomo of New York -

BALDWIN: Did you just say 2020? No, I'm just kidding. No, I know. I know.

WATSON: I did. Hey, Brooke, do you see it happening already and I'm talking to Democratic donors who have already heard from a half a dozen potential candidates who are lining up support. And some, by the way, who have pretty thick pockets themselves. Out here in California, we've got a few billionaires who are thinking about running themselves.

BALDWIN: Amazing, amazing, amazing.

Kristen, just really, really quickly, last note from you.

ANDERSON: Look, fake news is something that we've seen in supermarket tabloids, conspiracy theory chain letters forwarded around. That's not new. What is new is the ability to spread it fast and to have a friend putting a seal of approval on it on something like a FaceBook platform. But it's not why Hillary Clinton lost the election. I think the fake news and the spread of it is a symptom of a bigger problem, which is, when you have people who can look at a headline from a reputable news source and a headline from a website created by a Maradonian teenager and think they both have the same weight, that's a much bigger problem than something that you just need a website to tweak their algorithm to fix. That's a fundamental lack of trust in institutions and society. It's much bigger than just a tech issue and it's not why Hillary Clinton lost this election.

[14:15:13] BALDWIN: Yes. Yes, it is a frightening thing. And to her point, though, it has real-world consequences.

Kristen and Maeve and David and Carlos, great conversation. Thank you so much.

ANDERSON: Thank you.

CHALIAN: Thanks, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Thank you.

WATSON: Good to join you.

BALDWIN: Thank you.

Coming up, we are still waiting to see the president-elect arrive there in Baton Rouge, holding a rally for the Republican Party there, trying to galvanize support for Republican John Kennedy for that big Senate runoff election. We'll listen in and take him live.

Also, we have learned about the national security briefings that Trump has been receiving since winning the election - or perhaps not receiving. Why he isn't taking as many as perhaps the intelligence community would like him to. More on that.

Also, major developments in the case in Charleston, South Carolina, the man accused of killing nine people, the trial underway. His own mother had a heart attack just this week. His confession tape was played in the courtroom today. And CNN has chilling video of the accused gunman leaving the church with a gun in his hand. More on Charleston, next.

And it is the worst outbreak in a decade. What is behind this unusual number of mumps cases? Mumps in this country. Where this outbreak is being felt the hardest. We'll talk to our chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta for that.

I'm Brooke Baldwin. You are watching CNN.

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[14:20:29] BALDWIN: Welcome back. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

It is day three in the hate crime murder trial of a man accused of killing nine people during a Bible study at Mother Emanuel AME church. A historically black church. Today the jury in Charleston, South Carolina, saw a taped confession, actually heard this accused gunman clearly say, quote, "I went to that church in Charleston and I did it." Yesterday, jurors were shown closed circuit video of the suspect arriving at the church where the Bible study was underway and then leaving through that very same door, a gun clutched in his hand.

Before this trial began, earlier this year, I was invited into that very Bible study room and spoke with those whose lives were spared, including Polly Shepherd, who said that accused gunman allowed her to live to tell her story. She asked that he wouldn't kill them all, as many of them had their eyes closed in prayer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN (voice-over): Police released this security camera footage of the gunman entering the side door of Mother Emanuel AME Church, eliciting help from the public to catch him on the run.

CHIEF GREGORY MULLEN, CHARLESTON, SOUTH CAROLINA POLICE: There was some anxious moments as we were waiting for confirmation that they actually had him in custody, because anybody who would certainly commit this type of a crime, you never know what they were going to do.

BALDWIN: CNN was given rare access inside the Bible study room where the shooter sat among a dozen church members for an hour before eventually targeting them in his rampage because of the color of their skin. I spoke exclusively to those left behind.

MULLEN: There was no doubt in my mind that it was a hate crime.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was not insane. He was a racist bigot. He came here because he hated black people and he wanted to cause a race revolution.

BALDWIN: Forty years ago, Joseph Reilly (ph) was elected mayor of the city of Charleston. I spoke with him on his last day in office.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I ran for mayor to build bridges between the African-American and white community. What was so extra doubly tragic about the 17th of June was that that was, of course, a bigot who lived 120 miles away.

BALDWIN (on camera): If he were sitting here, is there anything you would ask of him or say to him?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would ask him why.

BALDWIN: You would?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Uh-huh. And ask him to pray for God's forgiveness, repent and God will forgive him. It doesn't mean you don't have to pay for your sins, but he will forgive him.

BALDWIN (voice-over): Just before the madman ran out of the room, police say he stood over a witness and uttered a racial slur. He then told Polly Shepherd he would let her live to tell the story of what happened that night, but Polly says it wasn't Roof but God who left her here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My memory is - it comes and goes.

BALDWIN (on camera): Of that night?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Anything is delayed. I can put clothes in the washing machine and forget them, two days later I'll remember, and by that time they'll have to be washed all over again.

BALDWIN: What did you do with the clothes you wore that night? Did you hold on to them?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have them.

BALDWIN: Did you wash them?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I washed them.

BALDWIN: Why have you held on to them?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I plan to wear them again, for one thing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: How about that?

Let's talk about what's happening in Charleston with our CNN legal analyst Joey Jackson. He's also a criminal defense attorney.

Joey Jackson, nice to see you, sir.

You know, let's go back to this confession tape where, you know, he - I just can't imagine being a family member in the room and hearing him say, I thought I - I thought I killed four, and when he's told it was actually nine and how did he feel he said, well, that makes me feel bad. How will all of this factor into this case?

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: In multiple ways, Brooke. Good afternoon to you. It's hard not to be touched by the piece that you did in that community, which has been shattered by this horrific crime.

[14:25:04] You know, a confession in any criminal case is very compelling because it's out of the - it's the words of the very person who engaged in the activity and is responsible for all of this. And with respect to that confession tape, Brooke, it's sickening and I think it will have a chilling effect on the jury for multiple reasons. Remember it's a case, as you mentioned, involving murder, but involving engaging in that act of murder for pure hateful reasons predicated upon race. And in the confession he speaks about that in terms of why he engaged in it, his support of Hitler, his disdain for African-American - the African-American community, the fact that he wore two flags of South Africa and Rhodesia because it's a country - those are countries that - where white people preside over black people, talking about the nature of his crime, why he did it and, in fact, the premeditation of it, standing there thinking about whether he should and could carry out the crime. And so I think, you know, in balance, when you look at the confession, matched with everything else and just the pure carnage that he wreaked, it's very difficult not for it to have such an emotionally compelling impact upon that jury as to cry for his guilt.

BALDWIN: Just reminding everyone, depending on the way this case goes, this is a young man who could be spared his life, or not. We're watching it very closely.

Joey Jackson, thank you.

JACKSON: Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Coming up next here, back on politics, Russian influence? President Obama ordering this full review of election-related hacking by Russia. We have details on the investigation.

Also ahead, President-elect Donald Trump taking some heat from critics for not taking national security briefings as we're - regularly as past leaders have been. What CNN is learning about how often Trump is getting these intel briefings.

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