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Investigation into Russian Hacks; Reid Blames Hacking and Comey; CIA and FBI Disagree on Russian Interference; Trump Rejects Russian Interference; Trump Dismisses Daily Briefings; Tillerson Possible Secretary of State Choice; Putin Hacked For Revenge. Aired 2- 2:30p ET

Aired December 12, 2016 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00] WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: So that's it for me. I'll see you at 5:00 p.m. Eastern in "The Situation Room." The news continues right now, right here on CNN.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Here we go. Top of the hour. I'm Brooke Baldwin. You're watching CNN. Thank you so much for being with me.

President-elect Donald Trump at odds with Congress, including his own party leaders, and the CIA, all at once. And a showdown is looming. I'm talking about the Russians interfering with the 2016 presidential election. It was done, so says the CIA, to help sway a Trump victory.

Now, there are four senators, here you go, all making a bipartisan call for an investigation. The second one announced in less than a week. House Speaker Paul Ryan also just released this statement saying, in part, quote, "any intervention by Russia is especially problematic because under President Putin, Russia has been an aggressor that consistently undermines American interests."

Earlier, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell expressed his confidence in the work of the CIA, while strongly condemning Russia.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R), MAJORITY LEADER: It defies belief that somehow Republicans in the Senate are reluctant to either review Russian tactics or ignore them.

The Russians are not our friends. Invaded Crimea. Senator McCain and I and some of our Democratic friends met with a delegation from the Baltic countries just this past week. To say that they are nervous about the Russians, is to put it mildly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Now, contrast that to what we've heard from the president- elect. Mr. Trump told Fox News he doesn't believe Russia tried to influence the election to help him. And today he took to Twitter and tweeted this. "Unless you catch, 'hackers' in the act, it is very hard to determine who was doing the hacking. Why wasn't this brought up before the election?" The answer is a resounding, yes, of course, we have been reporting about Russian interference into the elections since June.

Let's begin with our go-to guy on Capitol Hill, our senior political reporter Manu Raju.

There is a major battle looming over this investigation.

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: Absolutely, Brooke. And this is going to overshadow a lot of the things that Donald Trump may want to do in the beginning parts of the new administration, in the new Congress. Now, this investigation is probably going to take shape in both the House and the Senate Intelligence Committees, as well as the Senate Armed Services Committee, which is chaired by Senator John McCain.

Now, one thing that Senator Mitch McConnell, the majority leader, said today, that he wants these investigations to happen in the existing standing committees on Capitol Hill, rejecting that call from Democrats to create a separate bipartisan commission with subpoena power, similar to what we saw after the 9/11 attacks and a Watergate style commission.

But, nevertheless, there is going to be this investigation. Republicans are being very careful not to say that Russia got involved to sway the elections to Donald Trump. But one person, Brooke, who is not being as judicious, I should say, is Senator Harry Reid, the outgoing minority leader, who believes that James Comey, the FBI director, intentionally tried to sway this election to help Donald Trump and suppressed key information about Russia's involvement. I had a chance to talk to him in his Senate office just a few moments ago. Here's what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Would Trump have won this race if Russia did not get involved?

SEN. HARRY REID (D), OUTGOING MINORITY LEADER: All I know is that Russia helped a lot. Those WikiLeaks coming out, drip, drip, drip, hurt her. And Comey helped Trump significantly. A week before the election, he came out and - with this, oh, we've got some - found some more e-mails. And as a result of that, we lost Senate seats, and I think we lost the presidency.

RAJU: So you think he, Comey, single-handedly swayed this election to Clinton and kept Republicans in control of the Senate?

REID: Well, I'm not saying single-handedly, but he - but for him (INAUDIBLE) - well, I'll say single-handedly. Had he not written that letter a week or so before the election, she would have won, we would have picked up at least two more Senate seats.

RAJU: Are you OK with a president taking that briefing once a week?

REID: Well, it's very concerning to me. I know the people that brief the president. They spend 80 hours a week getting ready to brief the president. 80 hours a week, because that information is so sensitive. I don't get a briefing every day, but I get one every couple of weeks that's very concerning. And I think it's unbelievable that he said, well, let Pence do it. That should be done by the chief executive of our government.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Now, that last reference was in reference to Donald Trump saying over the weekend that he only takes that presidential daily briefing of classified information once a week rather than every single day. Obviously, Reid very critical of that.

But in that same interview, Reid also said that Donald Trump's choice of secretary of state, likely choice, Rex Tillerson, the Exxon Mobil CEO, would have a very difficult time getting confirmed. And even though Harry Reid's not going to be here anymore, he knows how to read the Senate very well.

[14:05:11] BALDWIN: Yes.

RAJU: And I should also note, Joe Manchin, he's meeting with - he's a West Virginia Democrat, meeting with Donald Trump right now. Harry Reid told me he thinks Manchin is running for that position, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Incredibly news-making interview. We're going to live it through the show, pose it to some newsmakers. Manu Raju, great job and thank you.

And while there is no question among intel agencies that Russians hacked into the 2016 election, there is a question as to why - why it was done. The CIA says it was all about helping Donald Trump. The FBI not quite going that far.

So let me bring in our justice correspondent Pamela Brown, because it's really important to point out sort of the nuances and the differences between what the CIA is saying and what the FBI is saying.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, you hit the nail on the head saying nuance. And that really is what we're dealing with here because when you have intelligence, it's not a perfect science, an art, as one official I spoke to said, trying to describe the differences between the agencies. So you have some U.S. intelligence officials, Brooke, who not only believe Russia meddled in the U.S. election, but they're increasingly confident that Russia intended to undermine Hillary Clinton's campaign to help Donald Trump win.

And that was an intelligence analyst that was shared with the CIA with Congress during a classified briefing on The Hill after the election. As you point out, the FBI is simply not willing to go that far about Russia's motives just yet. And the FBI, from what we're being told, gave a more conservative assessment to Congress.

But we should say, there is broad agreement that Russia did have some involvement in - with medaling in the election. As you'll recall, Brooke, October 17th, intelligence agencies released that joint statement saying they were united in the belief that Russia tried to sow chaos during the election. But officials tell CNN, tell us, that new intelligence sheds more light on Russia's motives. According to "The New York Times," part of the CIA's shift in assessment is based on the fact that Russians hacked both Democratic and Republican groups, but chose only to publish documents from Democrats online.

We have learned, Brooke, that FBI investigators did find a breach of a third-party entity that held data belonging to the RNC, but it appeared that data was outdated and of little value to the hackers. We should point out, the FBI has not concluded that the RNC was directly breached. And, of course, as you know, the RNC has denied that it has been hacked at all.

Brooke.

BALDWIN: That's right. That's right. There's a lot here to digest. Pamela Brown, thank you so much for that.

Let's just delve a little deeper into this. I've got two voices standing by, Julie Pace, chief White House correspondent for the Associated Press and contributor on CNN's "Inside Politics." And Dave Williams is with us, a former CIA special agent in charge and a counterterrorism expert.

So, welcome to both of you. And I think - let's take three steps back, if we can just for a second, Julie, and just, first of all, the headline, the CIA has concluded that Russia intervened in the presidential election to help Trump win. This is an explosive allegation.

JULIE PACE, CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, THE ASSOCIATED PRESS: It really is. Obviously, during the campaign, we had reports from intelligence agencies that Russia was interfering in the election, but to go this extra step and say they were doing that on behalf of Donald Trump, I think it's really troubling if you're someone who cares about the integrity of American elections. And that's what you're hearing both from Democrats and some Republicans now, that this really isn't about the outcome of this election, it's not about challenging this outcome, it's about protecting our elections going forward. If Russia was interfering on behalf of a specific candidate in 2016, what's to prevent them from doing that in the future if we don't get a handle on how this happened?

BALDWIN: And let me just pause and correct myself if I said CIA. Of course, Dave, forgive me, FBI. I have CIA on the brain based upon what they've said. Of course, you're former FBI.

But, Julie, just quickly back to you, because we just learned maybe an hour ago that John Podesta, Hillary Clinton's, you know, campaign chairman, today is now backing these electoral college electors who are saying, yes, we want these, you know, intel briefings on any kind of foreign intervention in the presidential elections ahead of the big vote December 19th. Do you think he's hoping that they will change their minds?

PACE: I think that they want to create not doubt about the outcome of the election, but some doubt about who was to blame for Hillary Clinton's loss. You've seen a lot of people in the Clinton campaign with their backs up against the wall, trying to point to Comey, trying to point to other outside factors. So, again, I don't think you're seeing them challenge whether Donald Trump won the election or not -

BALDWIN: OK.

PACE: But they're certainly trying to point their fingers to other people besides Hillary Clinton and their own decisions.

BALDWIN: OK. Now, Dave, to you. Just the fact that Mr. Trump does not believe the CIA's conclusions. From your intel FBI perspective, I want you to first explain to us how important a working relationship is between the president of the United States and the intel community and how working in a more, you know, hostile environment would be challenging.

[14:10:07] DAVE WILLIAMS, FORMER FBI SPECIAL AGENT IN CHARGE: Well, the relationship, I think, between the president and the intelligence community is a very important one. That relationship has been handled differently by different presidents. This president apparently chooses not - this president-elect chooses not to be briefed every day on the presidential daily brief. Others have also not done that exactly. Some want to just absolutely delve into it every day. But it's an important relationship. And that is the feeder information to the president as to what's going on in the world.

BALDWIN: Do you think he's right, though, to be skeptical - I mean it was one of his transition team personnel who essentially said, these are the people, as in the CIA, you know, who said Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. What do you make of that?

WILLIAMS: Well, he's made the statement that Saddam Hussein - the intelligence community errored, so to speak, that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. Let's not forget that the entire western world at that time was of the opinion that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. The primary reason for that was Saddam Hussein wanted Iran to believe that. And he went to great lengths to have that done. So the error on the part of the western intelligence services was widespread.

BALDWIN: Julie, take it a step further. This is what I'm also wondering. If you have a president of the United States here, a President Trump, who then doesn't entirely trust the - his intelligence officials and community, how then can Americans trust Mr. Trump's decision-making if he doesn't trust the information he's getting? Are you with me?

PACE: Right. Absolutely. I think the consequences of what he's saying here could be pretty great. The one thing I would caution is that a lot of things change, even from your transition to actually being in office, when you're the person who's having to make decisions based on the intelligence, not just putting out statements and tweets about it. So that's one thing that we should be looking for, how his position changes in office.

But he may be able to change over the leadership of the intelligence agencies with some of his political appointments, but he's going to be getting information from a lot of the same career officials that have been there, providing the information about Russian intelligence and other matters that he disagrees with. How he handles that and how he conveys, then, his decisions and what he's basing those decisions on to the American people, I think, is going to be really critical going forward.

BALDWIN: Back to the PDB's, Dave, that you referenced, the presidential daily briefings, you know, he says - we know - we know Mike Pence is taking them, I want to say almost daily, but Mr. Trump says he doesn't feel the need to be briefed daily. Here he was talking about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT-ELECT: These are very good people that are giving me the briefings. And I say, if something should change from this point, immediately call me. I'm available on one minute's notice. I don't have to be told - you know, I'm like a smart person. I don't have to be told the same thing in the same words every single day for the next eight years -- could be eight years, but eight years. I don't need that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Dave, he says he's a smart person. Got a lot of smart people around him. Do you think he's right or no?

WILLIAMS: Well, smart people like to be briefed by smart people as well. The United States intelligence community is made up of professionals. Regardless of who might be the agency head at any given time, the core people who are putting out the intelligence briefings know what they're talking about. They're very good. And I'd also like to say, Brooke, that there really is no difference here between what the FBI is finding, shall we say, in the CIA. I think there is a different culture -

BALDWIN: You don't think so?

WILLIAMS: There's a different culture as to where we go. The FBI primarily comes from a culture. We're looking for a very high standard. Probable cause going into beyond reasonable doubt. That's a much higher standard.

Now, I recognize that in the world you don't always get to that standard. You don't always get there. But you strive to get as high as you can. And that's where I think there's a little bit difference of how far we perceive we are in this thing.

BALDWIN: Got it. I got it. Dave Williams, thank you so much. Former FBI. Julie Pace, as always, a pleasure. Thank you both.

Coming up next, President-elect Trump's leading candidate for secretary of state, a big oil giant and a buddy of Vladimir Putin's and now Republicans are sounding the alarm.

Plus, they are some of Trump's fiercest supporters, so why are they being shut out of his administration? We'll discuss that. And just a chilling confession on video by the racist who carried out

that massacre inside a Charleston church. See why he laughed immediately following his arrest.

You're watching CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:17:58] BALDWIN: Welcome back. This is CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Rex Tillerson, he is one of the most recognizable faces in big oil. And sources now telling CNN, the CEO and chairman of Exxon Mobil is also Donald Trump's choice for secretary of state. Mr. Trump, he was expected to make a formal announcement later this week, calling Tillerson much more than a business executive.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT-ELECT: Well, in his case, he's much more than a business executive. I mean he's a world class player. He's in charge of, I guess, the large company in the world. He's in charge of an oil company that's pretty much double the size of his next nearest competitor. It's been a company that's been unbelievably managed.

And, to me, a great advantage is, he knows many of the players and he knows them well. He does massive deals in Russia. He does massive deals, for the company, not for himself, for the company.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: And it would appear that the Kremlin echoes Tillerson's business acumen. Tillerson has negotiated oil deals with Russia worth billions of dollars. And just a couple years ago, he was awarded Russia's order of friendship by Vladimir Putin himself. This cozy relationship not exactly sitting well with several top Republicans.

Here to discuss, Clarissa Ward, CNN's senior international correspondent, and CNN political analyst Jackie Kucinich, who is also Washington bureau chief for "The Daily Beast."

Ladies, great to have you on. And, Clarissa, to you first there in London. Tell me, what more do we know about Tillerson's ties to Russia and what message would that be sending if he's the guy who Trump selects?

CLARISSA WARD, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think, Brooke, the most important or significant thing that we know about Tillerson, other than the fact that he has no diplomatic experience in any traditional sense, is that he actively spoke out against U.S. sanctions against Russia, which were levied against Russia after it annexed Crimea back in 2014. So that is significant. He has been outspoken and saying that those sanctions were wrong and, of course, the question now is, would he try in some sense to repeal them?

[14:20:03] Now, today, we heard from the Kremlin, who had something to say about Tillerson, which in and of itself, Brooke, I have to tell you, is highly unusual. Normally the Kremlin would not comment on somebody, especially before this person had been officially announced. But what the Kremlin said was this, they praised Tillerson and said that he is very professional and then said, quote, "as to whether or not he's friendly to Russia, there is a huge difference between being a secretary of state and being a CEO of a big corporation. So all sympathies must take a backseat."

At the same time, Brooke, the very fact that he wrote - that the Kremlin even wrote this statement and came out and voiced its opinion about Tillerson is, I think, indicative of the fact that they are cautiously optimistic and, indeed, enthusiastic about the possibility of Tillerson as secretary of state, primarily because they want to see those sanctions repealed. They want to see European sanctions repealed as well.

BALDWIN: Yes.

WARD: Those hitting them even harder because they're bigger trade partners. But they need someone to make that happen and perhaps they're hopeful Tillerson could be that person.

BALDWIN: So, a statement from the Kremlin that speaks volume.

Two, Jackie Kucinich, you have the backdrop of all of this and the timing. You know, as we've been discussing, the CIA saying Russia interfered in the election to help Trump. Then you have, you know, Tillerson's ties to Russia that's causing some concern among these top Republican senators, including Senator Marco Rubio, who took to Twitter and said, "being a 'friend of Vladimir' is not an attribute I am hoping for from a secretary of state."

So, Jackie, if Rubio, along with Senators Graham and McCain, you know, vote against him, with 48 Democrats, we know he won't be confirmed. What do you think his chances are?

JACKIE KUCINICH, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: That has to be one of the things that the emerging Trump administration has to be looking at. There needs to be a serious charm offensive. But whether that will be enough, he will - it remains to be seen. I mean no matter what, he is going to have to answer for this in front of - for his confirmation hearing. And it's going to be a tough one. We're probably going to be discussing which of Trump's cabinet picks will have a - kind of an easy ride and which won't. Rex Tillerson will not. And it is because, I mean, you have the fox writing the hen house a recommendation letter, essentially, when you talk to some of the - some Russia hawks. So this will continue to be an issue and I don't know if he can adequately answer why this would be acceptable.

BALDWIN: Depending on then the way the votes go ahead of time, and, of course, Trump wouldn't want a loss like this, Jackie, is there even just the teeniest of chances a Mitt Romney could still be in play?

KUCINICH: That is also - only Donald Trump knows that. But the thing about Mitt Romney is, he - while Rex Tillerson is - believes in climate change, is free trade, Mitt Romney has staked out a very adversarial position to Russia, which clearly is not what Donald Trump is looking for if he's looking at Rex Tillerson, who is kind of the opposite of mitt Romney. So this would be a 180 if he ended up going with Romney over someone who might have views much more like his own for secretary of state.

BALDWIN: Let me - let me play some sound, Clarissa, and I want you to respond to this. We're about to hear from the former ambassador to Russia, Michael McFaul, who was on "Meet the Press" over the weekend. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL MCFAUL, FORMER UNITED STATES AMBASSADOR TO RUSSIA: One is revenge against Secretary Clinton. Let's remember that Vladimir Putin thinks that she intervened in his election, the parliamentary election in December 2011, and has said as much publicly, and I've heard him talk about it privately.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Revenge against Secretary Clinton. What do you make of that claim?

WARD: Well, listen, I think what Ambassador McFaul is tapping into here is a really important issue. And I saw this for myself on the ground when I was just in Russia during the election. This election for Russians was less about a love of Donald Trump than it was about a deep-seeded animosity for Hillary Clinton.

Now, where does that animosity come from? Well, in part, it may be the 2011 election that you heard Ambassador McFaul reference there, but there are a host of other issues as well. I'm thinking specifically of the intervention into Libya, which the Russians essentially felt like they were hoodwinked into participating in.

For Russians, the idea of regime change in any shape or form is an anapama (ph) and they associate Hillary Clinton with that kind of hawkish, centrist, pro-regime change, spreading democracy through whatever means necessary sort of attitude or stance. So I don't think - or I wouldn't disagree with the idea that certainly - who can say in terms of the tampering with this election and whether that was to punish Hillary Clinton or not. That would be speculation. But certainly it is no secret that President Putin is no fan of Hillary Clinton's.

BALDWIN: We wait to see if Tillerson is the official pick. Clarissa and Jackie, thank you both so much.

[14:25:02] KUCINICH: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, what investigators found inside the car of that Charleston church shooter. Among the objects, a chilling handwritten note, also the suspect's eerie confession where he is seen laughing in front of investigators. We'll take you live to Charleston, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BALDWIN: Week two now of the federal hate crime trial for the Charleston church shooter is underway. The 22-year-old is charged in the brutal slayings of nine parishioners at South Carolina's historic Mother Emanuel AME Church. Last week testimony ended with prosecutors showing the jury the defendant's chilling video confession. The self- proclaimed white supremacist described in shocking matter of fact terms how he targeted African-Americans. He even, at one point, laughed as he was answering questions about this cold-blooded massacre.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DYLANN ROOF: I went to that church in Charleston and - and I did it.

FBI: Did what?

ROOF: Well, I had to do it because somebody had to do something. Because, you know, black people are killing black people every day.

FBI: So, did you shoot them?

ROOF: Yes.

[14:30:00] FBI: Would you consider yourself a white supremacist?

ROOF: I do consider myself a white supremacist, sure.

FBI: And -

ROOF: White people are superior.

FBI: Your deal - so it's like - is it like -

ROOF: To agitate race relations and make it worse (ph).