Return to Transcripts main page
Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield
"Serial" Star Denied Bail for Retrial; Man on Date Killed by Woman`s Stalker; Young DUI Killer Gets Out of Jail Early; The Search for a Killer of a Fitness Instructor. Aired 8-8:30p ET
Aired December 29, 2016 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA BLOOM, CNNHN HOST (voice-over): Tens of millions of people downloaded the podcast featuring Adnan Syed`s murder case.
SARAH KOENIG, "SERIAL" PRODUCER: Over the past few weeks, I`ve been holding up bits of evidence here and there that look bad for Adnan.
BLOOM: While he awaits a new trial, a judge`s latest ruling and why it will keep Adnan in prison for now.
ADNAN SYED, CHARGED WITH MURDER: (INAUDIBLE) I had no reason to kill her.
BLOOM: Movie night turned into a horror show for a couple in Illinois. Prosecutors say the woman`s stalker shot and killed her date not long after
leaving a theater.
She called herself a party princess.
KARLIE TOMICA, CONVICTED OF DUI FATALITY: I got very drunk!
BLOOM: But that was before a deadly drunk driving accident that left a father of three dead.
TOMICA: (INAUDIBLE) my car and (INAUDIBLE)
BLOOM: Outrage tonight over her early release.
Eight months after the murder of a fitness instructor in Texas, the trail has gone cold.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Until Missy`s killer is caught, I will stop short of saying that any person is absolutely excluded.
BLOOM: With no new leads, anonymous donors have helped to more than double the reward to find Missy Bever`s killer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everybody`s a suspect.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wanted to kind of teach him a lesson.
BLOOM: A police officer in Texas doles out some unusual punishment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Told him he had two options.
BLOOM: Instead of arresting a man for smoking pot, he told him to drop and give him 200.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And later, his mom, she said he should have did a thousand.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLOOM: Hello, everyone. This is PRIMETIME JUSTICE. I`m Lisa Bloom, in tonight for Ashleigh Banfield. I`m a trial lawyer at the Bloom firm and
legal analyst for Avvo.
A judge in Maryland has blocked a motion for bail for Adnan Syed, the focus of the wildly popular 2014 podcast "Serial." Remember that one? The judge
denying it because prosecutors are still fighting a court order for a new trial in the murder case.
I want to bring you up to date on how we got here. Seventeen years ago, police arrested Syed, then a 17-year-old high school senior, for the murder
of his classmate Hei Min Lee. Investigators say he strangled her and dumped her body in a Baltimore park. Well, a jury agreed and convicted him
of killing his ex-girlfriend a year later and sentenced him to life in prison.
So for many people, the case was over at that point. But in 2014, journalist Sarah Koenig began investigating the inconsistencies in the case
through the "Serial" podcast, which I listened to and I loved, and she speculated about Syed`s guilt and whether he got a fair trial in the first
place.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARAH KOENIG, "SERIAL" PRODUCER: Something`s not -- doesn`t make sense in this case, and I don`t know where the problem is. And so it really is just
me trying to figure that out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLOOM: Syed`s lawyers say attention from the podcast and new evidence prompted a judge to throw out the conviction earlier this year.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The conviction is vacated, so think of it as the conviction is erased. It`s gone. As of this day, he`s not convicted
anymore. We made it and we got him a new trial. We`re going to keep fighting until he`s out of jail.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLOOM: Prosecutors are appealing that decision, however.
Steve Helling is a staff writer for "People" magazine. He joins me from Orlando, Florida. OK, Steve, help me understand this. The conviction is
vacated. That means he`s back to being presumed innocent. So why isn`t any bail being set for him?
STEVE HELLING, "PEOPLE": Well, it`s really interesting. I was reading through the documents today, and the judge said that, yes, although the
conviction has been vacated, there`s still some worry that this is a very serious case, that there are serious charges against him, and before he
goes to trial again, they want to make sure that he`s not a flight risk or anything like that, even though they acknowledge that he really kind of
isn`t.
BLOOM: Right. And tell us about his background for the period of his incarceration. Has he been violent? Has he caused any problems behind
bars?
HELLING: Absolutely not. He has been a model prisoner since 2000. So for all this time, he`s caused no trouble, and he`s always maintained his
innocence. So it`s really surprising that after this conviction is vacated that they would still want to keep him in jail when, frankly, he`s not
going anywhere. Everybody knows who he is. And he would appear at trial the next time that there was a retrial.
BLOOM: Do we have a new trial date for him?
HELLING: No, we don`t. But I`ll tell you that, you know, this is something that`s going to be coming up sooner rather than later, is what we
understand. And you know, the interesting thing about it is that, you know, it has been 17 years, and if we`re really looking for justice, this
needs to be over one way or the other, sooner rather than later.
BLOOM: Well, that is for sure. Rabia Chaudry is a friend of Adnan Syed, and she joins me from Baltimore. It`s great to talk to you, Rabia. I
remember you from the podcast. I know you have been an outspoken advocate for Adnan. What is your reaction to the ruling denying him bail?
RABIA CHAUDRY, FRIEND OF ADNAN SYED: I mean, to be honest, we all knew that it was going to be a long shot. We weren`t necessarily surprised. Of
course, we`re disappointed that he`s not going to be home with us sooner rather than later, but we`re not necessarily shocked.
BLOOM: And Rabia, you spoke to Adnan recently. How`s he doing?
CHAUDRY: You know, it`s been a couple of weeks. He`s doing well. Ever since the conviction was overturned, vacated this past summer his spirits
have been better. But he has always been much more tempered in his hope than his loved ones and supporters because a lot of things have gone wrong
for him. And he also knows that this could drag out for another couple of years.
BLOOM: And I know that you`re the one that sort of got this podcast going in the first place, right? You approached Sarah Koenig and tried to make
it happen. Boy, did it happen in a huge way. It`s got to be one of the top-rated podcasts of all time. It was absolutely fascinating. I was
riveted to it at the time.
What effect do you think that podcast has had on this case?
CHAUDRY: I mean, you know, without "Serial" and without all the investigation that happened after "Serial" from other people, we wouldn`t
be where we are today. Having such a prominent spotlight on a case really, I think, ends up meaning that the courts pay a little closer attention to
it, which is not necessarily fair, but that is kind of how the system works.
The merits of the case -- I mean, we`ve learned things because of more investigators join a case that we didn`t know even after "Serial." So we
couldn`t have been -- we couldn`t have done what we did without "Serial." We -- I mean, we will always be very thankful to them.
BLOOM: And speaking of learning new things and new witnesses and evidence in the case, Asia McClain Chapman is a possible alibi witness for Adnan
Syed, and she joins me from Spokane, Washington.
You are a key witness in the case. For those who didn`t hear the podcast, you essentially say that Adnan was with you in a library at the time the
prosecutors say he was committing this murder. You didn`t testify in the first trial. Are you willing to testify the next time around?
ASIA MCCLAIN CHAPMAN, POSSIBLE ALIBI WITNESS: Absolutely.
BLOOM: And your testimony would be essentially, what, that he was with you in the library?
CHAPMAN: Basically, for a 15 to 20-minute period.
BLOOM: And how can you remember that now? You know, 17 years ago, I might have been at a library, but it might be hard to remember exactly when and
what time and who was there.
CHAPMAN: Well, I remembered at the time of his arrest. But because of the circumstances, I didn`t believe that the information was important. So
it`s not a matter of remembering now. It`s just I`ve always remembered seeing him in the library that day. There are multiple factors that
contribute to me retaining that memory over all this time, and I`ve only ever wanted to let the proper authorities or the court, as it may, know
that.
BLOOM: And Asia, I know that the prosecutors are now saying that they have two witnesses that they say are going to discredit you. These are two
sisters who I guess went to high school with you who are going to say that you said that you would do anything to get Adnan exonerated, including that
you would lie for him. Your reaction?
CHAPMAN: Honestly, whenever it`s brought up, my first reaction is to laugh because I don`t even know where to begin to defend myself against such an
outrageous accusation.
At the time Adnan was arrested, I didn`t have any of the police information or the court information, so it`s -- it`s impossible to think that I would
have this sort of plan that would require me to have inside knowledge of the state`s case against him, which I just simply wasn`t -- I wasn`t -- I
didn`t have access to that kind of information. So I don`t know why...
BLOOM: You`re saying it just doesn`t even make sense.
And joining me now -- I want to get some comment on this -- is former prosecutor Kenya Johnson, defense attorney and CNN and HLN legal analyst
Joey Jackson, and defense attorney Alex Sanchez.
OK, so Kenya, first to you. You know, I as a litigator in my day job, I do a lot of high-profile cases. And when the media attention comes, we get
more witnesses and then we get people trying to discredit witnesses. We get people writing books. We get people doing TV interviews. Overall, do
you think it`s a help or it`s a hindrance to a case?
KENYA JOHNSON, FMR. PROSECUTOR: Sometimes it can help and sometimes it can be hindrance. You`ve got people that come around and say they want to be a
part of this media frenzy. They want to participate in some way, and so that brings about questionable testimony.
Then you have the spotlight that also brings about evidence that may not have come to light before. But media attention evokes the emotions of
people, and they want to play a part in this when they can.
But an alibi witness 17 years later brings up a lot of suspicious questions.
BLOOM: Yes. Although to be fair to her, she says that at the time 17 years ago, she did give a statement that he was there, and she just wasn`t
called by his attorney, who they argue wasn`t effective at the time.
Hey, Joey Jackson, I got to go back to this bail issue because it really sticks in my craw, OK? The conviction of this man has been vacated, so in
the eyes of the law, he is presumed innocent. Yes, he is facing a retrial. But why is bail not set in any amount, not even a high amount, just no bail
whatsoever?
JOEY JACKSON, CNN AND HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Lisa, you are preaching to the choir. To be clear, the purpose of bail is to ensure a defendant`s return
to court. That`s the reason. Yes, the judge considers the seriousness of the case. That was considered, and in considering that, the conviction was
vacated. And so he deserves a new trial.
In addition to that, you look into the background. In the 17 years he`s been incarcerated, Lisa, he has a cell phone violation. That`s it. And
where is he going? He`s facing a new matter. Would this be the time for him to abscond from justice?
And so I say that it certainly further accelerates and exacerbates the misjustice that has happened in this case, and he should at least get bail
or home detention or home confinement. The reason that it hasn`t been otherwise issued I think is very questionable.
BLOOM: I do, too. Well, we`re going to stay on this one because this is an absolutely fascinating case, and we`ll see if the prosecution has
evidence beyond a reasonable doubt the second time around.
Well, a movie date ends in murder, but the violence didn`t happen between the couple. Cops say the woman`s stalker pulled the trigger.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLOOM: $3 million is a pretty high bond, even in a murder case. But a judge in Illinois handed that decision down on Wednesday against Kenneth
Seplak. Prosecutors say Seplak shot and killed the date of a woman he is accused of stalking just two days before Christmas, minutes after they`d
gone to the movies together.
Investigators say the victim, David Gorski, was shot and found slumped over the wheel of his car about a half mile from the theater. Police say the
woman provided them with info leading them to Seplak and say his vehicle`s GPS put him at the theater at the same time as the couple.
Ray Caputo is a reporter at news 96.5 WDBO in Orlando. Ray, great to have you. That doesn`t sound like enough for a murder charge, thought, just
because the guy happened to be at the same movie theater as these two. What more do police have on this defendant?
RAY CAPUTO, WDBO: Well, there`s a lot of evidence that`s stacked up. Now, we do have the GPS evidence. But also, they tracked him to a house and
they basically found a gun. The ballistics match the bullet that was lodged in David Gorski. So there`s a lot of evidence right now.
BLOOM: OK, well, certainly, a ballistics match is very, very important. Police are saying he`s an accused stalker, but there`s no restraining order
out there. How did they come to that opinion?
CAPUTO: Well, when things like this happen, what they do is to typically interview the last person the victim was seen with. So they caught up with
a women that he had been on a date with very fast, and we really don`t know how his name came up, but what we do know is it came up pretty quickly.
She had mentioned to authorities that he was stalking her. She even said that he came to her house one time uninvited.
Now, I don`t know about you, but if somebody came to my house uninvited, I`d be pretty creeped out about it. And I`m not sure if this is a pattern
with this guy. He has no criminal record. But he might have just been, you know, kind of losing it at this point because his behavior just doesn`t
seem all that right.
BLOOM: All right, joining me again, Kenya Johnson, Joey Jackson and Alex Sanchez. Alex, let me go to you. This is an unusual kind of case, right?
We hear about men stalking women, sometimes the other way around, but usually, it`s men stalking women and sometimes there`s a violent ending.
What we don`t hear is that a man is accused of stalking a woman and then her new date is the one who`s the victim of violence. What do you make of
this?
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, it is an unusual case. But you know, what I`m interested and everybody else should be interested in is what is
the evidence linking this guy to the offense? I don`t see much evidence against him.
If this occurred at or near a movie theater, you would think there`s, you know, hundreds or even thousands of people around. There`s no witnesses
that pointed him out or said his car was there. They`re saying there`s forensic evidence because his phone was there, and they linked it to --
they followed the evidence to where he lived. But they didn`t find the gun in his possession. Somebody else turned the gun and a package over to the
police. So what`s the evidence actually linking him to the offense?
BLOOM: Yes, and we actually have a map of the movie theater and where the car was found. So he wasn`t found right at the movie theater. I think it
was about a half a mile away, close by, but not actually there.
Kenya Johnson, I know that this defendant already is talking about character witnesses. His attorney is saying he never missed a work -- a
day at work for 10 years. He lives with his parents. He takes care of them. He`s a steady guy. Is that going to be important at trial?
JOHNSON: That`ll be something for the jury to weigh. You can only bring up good character evidence if the prosecution has brought up bad character
evidence. And so we`ve got to take a look at what`s going to come out. The prosecution is going to be looking at some of the history between the
two.
And this is a great theme for a closing argument. We`re talking about jealousy and we`re talking about control. It`s not odd that a stalker
would want to kill the love interest of their love interest because they think that`s the barrier to them being together. So this would be a great
story, this would be a great book theme, and this would be a great movie theme.
BLOOM: Right...
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: Joey, for the defense.
JACKSON: Well, I mean, it could be a good movie theme, but is it a good case? That`s the issue. Now, to be fair, apparently, the ballistics that
matched, it was a friend of his. They tracked it to that home.
This guy would have had the motivation, but I`m with my friend, Alex Sanchez here. Don`t come into a courtroom and say because I was at the
same movie theater and you tracked my phone and you found ballistics, not on my person, not in my home, and I`m a person of good character, I never
miss work, I have no criminality, no criminal record, and I stalked a woman one time, I should get a first degree murder charge?
There has to be a lot more here and a lot of other motive other than he likes this woman and he stalked her a single time previously.
BLOOM: Well, that is true. Although, Joey and Alex, you defense attorneys, you always stick together. I think the prosecution has more
than that.
JACKSON: We do.
BLOOM: You want to pick it apart piece by piece. They want to build a mountain, you want to tear it down. That`s the way the justice system
works.
Well, coming up -- she dubbed herself the "party princess," but her castle came crashing down all around her after a deadly DUI accident. And now
she`s out of jail, but her sentence is awfully light, in my opinion.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLOOM: Karlie Tomica, a self-described party princess, convicted of killing a father of three in a DUI accident, is now free eight months
early. Tomica was just 20 when she slammed her car into Stefano Riccioletto (ph) who was walking to work in January of 2013 in Miami. And
just days before her 21st birthday, Tomica pleaded guilty to DUI manslaughter.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOMICA: I`m very, very sorry! My actions changed the lives of many innocent people. I had been drinking while I was at work. I got very
drunk. (INAUDIBLE) with my car, and I killed him!
I wanted to tell Stefano`s family how sorry I am. I wanted desperately to (INAUDIBLE) them (INAUDIBLE) their forgiveness and hope that one day I will
have it!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLOOM: Tomica still must serve two more years of house arrest, 15 years of probation, 1,000 hours of community service, speak to students at least
five times a year about the incident, and can never drive again.
But some are questioning why she was allowed to walk free on Christmas Day and if her sentence was too light.
Joining me again, Kenya Johnson, Joey Jackson and Alex Sanchez. So Alex, to you. Listen, I find these cases very difficult and painful. She took a
life. She should never have been drinking behind the wheel. On the other hand, she is young. She did not intend to hurt anyone. She`s clearly
distraught. She has served her time. Is her sentence fair?
SANCHEZ: You know, how much time is enough? You know, she was very sorry, and I know that doesn`t bring a life back, but she did spend a couple of
years in jail. She`s going to be on probation for 15 years and two more years on home confinement. You know, I got news for you. That`s a pretty
substantial penalty. Now, this was a young girl. We live in some society that idolizes people that party and have a great time, and you know, all
the liquor you can drink. And she`s -- she`s basically a kid, and she made a mistake and...
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: ... we don`t live in a society that encourages her to drink and drive, and she was, I think, two or three times the legal limit.
SANCHEZ: Right. But you know what? She`s...
BLOOM: It`s one thing to go and party, it`s another thing to get behind the wheel intoxicated.
SANCHEZ: You know what? You`re right, and she`s a kid and she made a mistake and she went to jail and she paid a penalty.
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: ... so Kenya, what about that? Let me go to Kenya. I mean, one of the problems here is her getting out early, right? If she has a four-year
sentence,, let her serve the four-year sentence. Why is she getting out eight months early? I think that really is a problem for some people.
JOHNSON: She already got a fairy tale sentence. The least she can do is serve it all. Ask me in 15 years if she served enough time.
This family is living with the loss of this man and their loved one for the rest of their lives. That`s why they have dram (ph) shop (ph) laws, which
means when someone is drinking too much at an establishment and others notice it, they have to cut this person off, make sure that they don`t get
behind the wheel. This was a very reckless act to which she should pay for for a much longer time than just a few years.
BLOOM: And Joey, let`s talk about her community service. So she`s going to be speaking five times a year to students? Is this really the kind of
role model we want to put in front of students?
JACKSON: You know, it`s not, Lisa, but at the same time, I think there`s no more effective person to talk to students about the dangers and what
could happen in their life than this person here.
And putting things in perspective in terms of jail time, there is no state that I know of across the country where someone serves, if they have a plea
deal for four years, the entire four years. Putting it into perspective, Conrad Murray, who was convicted in the involuntary manslaughter death of
Michael Jackson, was sentenced to four and he was released after two!
And so the reality is, her serving three years and four months is substantial by any measure because generally speaking, once sentenced,
you`re released early anyway. So that needs to be factored into the equation here.
BLOOM: Yes, well, Alex, you know what else has to be factored in? And I just have to say it. You know, when we`re talking about an attractive
young white woman, it seems to me that we`re always talking about people with light sentences. Do you think that played a role here?
SANCHEZ: I don`t think it did. This was a high-profile case, and I would be very surprised if the prosecutor and the judge and any other person in
the criminal justice system is going to give her a break because she`s an attractive white woman. If they did that, that would be an absolute
disgrace. And she wasn`t given a break. She went to jail for three years. How much do you want for penalty for this young person?
BLOOM: Kenya?
JOHNSON: You know, I`m going to step a little bit past white privilege and say that juries have a hard time convicting beautiful people and judges
have a hard time giving beautiful people lengthy sentences. I`ve seen it over and over, again. If you look good, you automatically give sympathy.
But in this case, she`s cute enough for jail.
BLOOM: Yes. I`ll tell you, you know, I -- I wrote a book called "Suspicion Nation" about the Trayvon Martin case, and in there, I talked about -- have
-- there`s no question about it. I mean, the data is overwhelming that if you are young and white and female, you get a much lighter sentence than
somebody who is African-American and/or male. I mean, that`s just the way it goes.
Did that happen in this case? I can`t say for sure. And I say, you know, listen, I do struggle with it because I think she is genuinely remorseful.
But she did take a life and I think that has to be, you know, taken into account here.
What about Joey, all of the other factors in the sentence. The house arrest, for example, I mean, how serious is that for her?
JACKSON: You know, I think it`s a substantial sentence. And just to be clear, I think what happened here is abhorrent. It should never happen. No
one should drink and drive. No life should be lost, but when you look at that, Lisa, as we are with the house arrest, probation for 15 years, she
can never drive again. She has a civil case, and we should also know that even with that civil case pending, not against her but against the bar, of
course .
BLOOM: Yes.
JACKSON: ... the reality is that she admitted guilt to that family. She said she killed him. It`s a horrific thing. She was 20 years old. She`s
entitled now to move on with her life, speak to young people so that they would never do what she did ever to anyone else.
BLOOM: Well, I tell you what, Carly Tomika (ph), you prove us all wrong. All of us who think this was a little bit too late, you show us through
your actions and through your life that we are wrong.
JOHNSON: Amen.
BLOOM: And that you`re not going to cause any other damage or any other harm to anybody else for the rest of your life.
The search for a killer of a fitness instructor has turned up hundreds of leads but little results. So, we`re returning to it. New developments
tonight in the murder of Missy Bevers.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLOOM: It`s been eight months since fitness instructor, Missy Bevers, was brutally murdered before a class inside a Texas church, and now the trail
has gone cold. And that`s why a couple of anonymous donors have chipped in on the reward money, increasing it to $50,000 for information leading to an
arrest. What`s been so frustrating for police and family members is that the killer was caught on surveillance video at Creekside church in
Midlothian, decked out in police gear, and had a very distinctive walk.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEVIN JOHNSON, ASSISTANT CHIEF, MIDLOTHIAN: Initially, you know, we really wanted folks to focus on that gait (ph). I think that`s been well
documented, it`s been well circulated. Hopefully, now folks who believe they have helpful information can couple that gait with the height
estimate, you know, and we get a lot of tips from folks who they aren`t sure how helpful their information may be. They`re not sure if their
information is related, of course. This will probably help folks screen the decision to provide that information now that we have a height.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLOOM: Robyn Walensky is a senior news anchor for the Blaze Radio Network. She joins me from Atlanta. So, Robyn, where does this investigation stand
right now? We always have to be concerned when time is passing and we don`t have a suspect.
ROBYN WALENSKY, SENIOR NEWS ANCHOR, BLAZE RADIO NETWORK: I`ll tell you, Lisa, this was a horrendous crime. It took place in a very holy place, in a
church. I have been living in Dallas for five years, and I`ve been covering the story since the day that it broke, and what strikes me about it is that
this is a church, a community church. This is not first Baptist Dallas. This is not gateway. This is not mega church. This is 30 miles Southwest of
Dallas, Texas. The only people who know about this church, Lisa, are the people who pray there. And so this crime .
BLOOM: Yes.
WALENSKY: . really disturbs me, because this was meticulous planning, with the outfit, with that police SWAT style outfit. And let me tell you
something, who in the world would do this and that person was seen at 3:50 a.m. on a Sunday into a Monday. This is meticulous planning. This person
absolutely knew that Terri Bevers was going to be in that church at 5:00 a.m. doing her class -- her exercise class.
BLOOM: Right. And Robyn, so I agree with you. It sounds very personal. It sounds like somebody was specifically targeting her. No one is going to be
wandering around in a church at that hour when she was the only one there, right, unless he -- I`m going to say he, it looks like a "he" to me. He was
specifically going after her. So, I assumed that police have, you know, looked very carefully at her friends, her family, people that might have a
vendetta against her, right?
WALENSKY: Yes, and you know, you`re saying it`s a "he." I`m not so sure -- so sure that it`s a "he." I`ve looked at this tape at least 100, 200 times.
That could be a woman. The FBI says that the person you see on the screen there is between 5`2" and 5`7". To me .
BLOOM: Yes.
WALENSKY: . Lisa, it looks like you take a 10-year-old -- like you have a 10-year-old child, right. You put the 10-year-old child in a Halloween
costume -- an adult size Halloween costume, and they could kind of be with that gait, kind meandering around, and the costume is too big. It doesn`t
really fit.
So, that`s a small person in there, even though it looks like it`s a large man, that could be a small woman in there and also look at the right foot
very closely. It`s -- the right foot is to -- hanging out toward the right. So, perhaps the person had some sort of leg injury, or it could be a walk
that`s completely faked.
BLOOM: Yes. Well, exactly. And let me go to Joey Jackson on that. You know, I`m skeptical of everybody and everything. That`s how we are trained as
lawyers.
JACKSON: Yes.
BLOOM: This is a person who obviously donned a disguise to avoid the security cameras. Do you think -- first of all, we don`t know the gender,
we don`t know the race, we don`t know the actual height, although we can make an estimate and we don`t even know if that gait is real. I mean, how
can police pursue the suspect? It`s so frustrating to me, because there he or she is on the video, but he or she cannot even be found.
JACKSON: Yes, Lisa. It`s very frustrating and certainly prayers to that family. I mean, after eight months, certainly, hanging tough. And I know
the police are doing all that they can do. You know, but the reality is, is that I`m one who believes in the theory that it had to be someone that knew
her. The fact is, she`s a fitness instructor. She`s showing up, Lisa, at 5 o`clock in the morning.
This person is there previous to that. They`re there in that -- whatever it is, costume, outfit. They have a weapon with them. They`re intending to do
some type of harm to the person that they knew would be there, and so who knows who it is? But I think it has to be in a circle of friends,
acquaintances or someone else who knows something, and I just pray the police crack the case and bring some solace to this family.
BLOOM: And Kenya Johnson, what about the reward money? I mean, God bless people chipping in to make it a bigger reward and maybe that will prompt
somebody to come forward giving them economic motive. Nobody ever wants to be a witness, nobody ever wants to call the police and rat (ph) somebody
out and sometimes money can kind of pry those people loose. Do you think ultimately that helps in a case like this?
JOHNSON: Absolutely. Money and time solves most crimes. That`s a great motivating factor, and so a cold case isn`t considered. A cold case until
it`s been unsolved for over six years which is a few weeks out or a little bit more than a weeks. But there`s plenty of time for people to be in
financial straits and then that`s when they start remembering things that were odd .
BLOOM: Yes.
JOHNSON: . and -- and can contribute to an investigation.
BLOOM: OK. But then Alex Sanchez, on the defense side, you`re going to argue at trial, if we get to that point, "Oh, this person just came forward
for reward money and that biases their testimony."
SANCHEZ: Yes. I mean, get it anytime, money is involved. There`s always a motivating factor there, and somebody can come into court and lie because
they want the money. But I tell you the truth, Lisa, I`m surprised, that this case hasn`t been solved. I don`t blame the police, but there`s .
BLOOM: Yes.
SANCHEZ: . a videotape of this person. Somebody .
BLOOM: Yes.
SANCHEZ: . knows who this person is, who this -- with that .
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: Yes. But this would (ph) only know, he`s going to say human.
SANCHEZ: . strange gait.
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: We, you know, it`s .
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: . yes -- yes, but that`s -- he`s walking with that strange gait. Who`s walking around .
BLOOM: Yes.
SANCHEZ: . military fatigues, somebody is probably from the area. Somebody knows him and they need no come forward .
BLOOM: Yes.
SANCHEZ: .and give that information.
BLOOM: Well, we all agree on that, prosecution, defense, everybody on this panel agrees on that. If you know anything, please call law enforcement.
Up next, a police officer could have arrested a teen for smoking pot. I love this story, but instead of taking him to jail, he told him to drop and
give him 200.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I told him to come here and then he got to walk in towards me .
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLOOM: An off duty Texas police officer catches a teen smoking pot outside a movie theater, uh-oh and he tells him you can either go to jail or drop
and give me 200 push-ups.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve seen him, I told him to come here and then he got to walk in towards me but I`ve seen him dropped something. He said he had
been smoking marijuana, but it wasn`t a usable amount. I wanted to kind of teach him a lesson to use that situation as a learning tool, and he was
real respectful.
So, I said, I told him he had two options, he can go to jail or he can give me 200 push-ups.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLOOM: For the record, the teen`s mom says the officer was much nicer to the boy than she would have been. She would have made him do a thousand
push-ups.
Joining me again, Kenya Johnson, Joey Jackson and Alex Sanchez. Kenya, watching that video, I don`t even see him do one push-up, so 200. I don`t
know, maybe it`s going to take about a week or so to do all those push-ups. But was this a good idea -- oh there you go. That was him doing a few more.
Was this a good idea?
JOHNSON: I definitely would have want to jail if they were me, but this makes me feel uncomfortable, because this is a cop who`s not much older
than the defendant, serving as the judge, the jury, and the executioner. Would we be talking about this - the officer made him shine his shoes or
suggested that he did .
BLOOM: Yes.
JOHNSON: . some push .
BLOOM: But that`s not -- wait no. But this is not like shining shoes. That`s not -- that`s not a humiliating thing, and police do have discretion
whether to arrest people or not.
(CROSSTALK)
JOHNSON: Well, I`m all -- I`m all for creative sentencing, as long as it goes through the due process and ensures dignity for the defendant.
BLOOM: All right. Joey Jackson, is this shaming? Is this like shining shoes or is this just, you know, like this is a very minor crime, in many places
marijuana is now legal. We don`t -- certainly don`t want kids to smoke it. Kids, don`t do drugs. Don`t smoke marijuana. We don`t like it. But, you
know, on the other hand .
(CROSSTALK)
JACKSON (?): I think that .
BLOOM: . we don`t want to incarcerate somebody for 10 years for, either.
JACKSON: That`s right, Lisa. Listen, I think this is a wonderful idea. The fact is, is that police have a vast amount of discretion on the streets to
do things that make a difference. Sending somebody to jail, you know, what`s going to happen? What would be learned? If you`re not a criminal
when you go to jail, you`re certainly one when you come out.
He`s setting a fine example. He`s working with this mom, he said the kid was very respectful to him. Why not cut him a break, why not uplift him?
Why not work with him? Why not teach him to do better the next time, and you know what? I think it will go a long way having him remember this,
Lisa, for the rest of his life. God bless that police officer.
BLOOM: Yes. Well, the first thing we need to do is teach him how to do a push-up because I saw him -- I haven`t (ph) seen him to do one push-up .
(LAUGHTER)
JACKSON: Me, either.
BLOOM: . on that video.
JACKSON: Did he do the 200?
BLOOM: Get off your knees. You`re a 17-year-old boy, for heaven sake. I could do more push-ups I think in this young man. All right. Come on,
right. No? Up. OK. All right.
Well, we`ve all done it. Swerved out of our lane to avoid hitting a squirrel or an innocent animal in the road, but in this case, police say
one woman`s attempt to not hit a raccoon went extremely wrong. Check it out.
According to the police report, she went through an apartment parking lot, crashed through a fence and shrubs, continued into the pool area, crashed
into the elevated edge of the pool, before coming to a final rest at the bottom of the pool. The driver and her passenger were not hurt and no one
is expected to be charged, not even the raccoon.
Alex, really, really? All of this is because of a raccoon? I could see maybe bumping up into a hedge. I could see maybe hitting a phone pole, but
I am a little skeptical of the story.
SANCHEZ: No. You know, the woman is a real animal advocate. She doesn`t want to run over a raccoon. And you know it would make .
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: Yes, I don`t either, but you know what, why are you going through a hedges and over fences and into a pool?
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Because she was trying to avoid, you know .
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: I mean, there`s no (ph) point. The raccoon was gone long ago, right?
SANCHEZ: Yes. You know what .
BLOOM: And she`s still going.
SANCHEZ: . I want to say something, if you see a raccoon, some of them have rabies. You don`t want to run over a rabid raccoon. That could get into
your car. So, sorry, I think I she did the thing.
(CROSSTALK)
JACKSON: So, instead Alex, you take the car and you make it swerved but almost killed people in pool.
SANCHEZ: But she didn`t kill anybody.
JACKSON: Yes. almost, do.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: She`s didn`t any. Well, you know .
JACKSON: You put people at risk.
SANCHEZ: Almost.
JACKSON: Look at that. Look at that .
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Is that same .
(CROSSTALK)
JACKSON: . there`s (ph) doing it
BLOOM: OK. But Kenya, can we agree, she wasn`t charged and that`s good. She should have been shown leniency and mercy, because she`s compassionate for
animals. I`m a huge animal lover. I certainly, if I had any discretion, I`m the prosecutor, I`m the judge, I`m the cop, I would have shown her mercy,
too.
JOHNSON: Yes. But she almost killed herself and her passenger, so there`s this raccoon laughing somewhere, but thankful to be alive. So, I agree that
she should get a little mercy, but it was a little reckless and that needs to be taken into consideration also.
BLOOM: All right. Well, some criminals aren`t the sharpest tools in the shed. We`ll show you why cops say one suspected thief in Georgia wasn`t as
good at hide and seek as he was at stealing. And he was bad at that, too.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLOOM: The homeowners saw their two pit bulls as household pets. The Battle Creek, Michigan police saw them as threats. When officers killed the dogs
at a home where they were executing a search warrant, the pet owners sued. And now the Six Circuit Court of Appeals has appalled the lower Court`s
decision that the police were justified in killing the dogs.
Noting, the use of deadly force against a household pet is reasonable only if the pet poses an imminent danger, and the use of force is unavoidable.
That`s very similar to using force against humans.
Joining me again, Kenya Johnson, Joey Jackson and Alex Sanchez. All right, in this case, the police said one of the pit bulls was lunging at them.
They shot that dog, I can probably would all agree that that`s justified. But the second one ran down to the basement and was just barking from the
basement and they shot that one, too.
Joey Jackson, to you, what`s the justification for shooting the dog in the basement?
JACKSON: I think if you read the 25-page decision, the Court did back flip some assaults and everything else to justify this police conduct. I think
the Court had no mercy because they were going to the house to execute a warrant. Apparently, the person was supposed to be there, was a known drug
dealer, he was at -- hey, he was just released from federal prison.
There was known gang activity, and the officers were saying that they needed to clear that basement and were concerned that other gang members
might be there, as well. So, the Court gave a lot of deference to the officers who felt that their safety may be at issue, even if the dog wasn`t
posing an immediate danger, which the Court found it was.
BLOOM: Well, Kenya, they did give a lot of deference to the police officers, which I understand, but the dogs are innocent here. The dogs have
lives. The dogs did not commit a crime. The dogs are not drug dealers, and I just think maybe we could take a few other steps before she shoot and
kill them.
I mean, there are other things that can be done. You can spray them with water. You can spray them with a fire extinguisher. You can use this catch
poles, you can even bring in an animal control officer. I mean, do we have to just immediately shoot the dogs that they`re just in the way?
KENYA: Well, absolutely not. But it seems like the Court used the same standard as this -- as it uses toward people that someone must be in
imminent danger. So, if we`re going to use the same standard -- if a dog is running away and only barking, then the threat is no longer there, and that
officer wasn`t justified .
BLOOM: Yes.
KENYA: . in shooting a dog that`s running away just like an officer wouldn`t be justified in shooting at person that`s running away.
BLOOM: All right. And let`s go to this one, a suspected shoplifter in Marietta, Georgia, did everything he could to give the police a big helping
hand in tracking him down, and they sure did thank him for it on Facebook.
This is what they posted. A request to the gentleman who shoplifted from one of our local pawnshops today. Sir, you must have forgot -- that --
forgotten that you gave the clerk your driver`s license with all of your personal information, as well as providing him with your fingerprint when
completing the pawn ticket before you stole from him, which by the way was also all on camera.
Please at least try to hide. The judge has already signed the warrant. When you make it this easy, it takes all the fun out of chasing bad guys.
Regards, Marietta Police Evening Watch.
Alex, are you amused?
SANCHEZ: I am amused. But, you know, some society can`t have it both ways, Lisa. You know, we express alarm and fear and anxiety with these brilliant
criminals, but when somebody fall short, we make fun of them and call them a dope. That`s what they`re basically doing here. You know, don`t expect
criminals to be smart. Thank God they aren`t that too smart. Otherwise, we`d be in bigger trouble than we already are.
BLOOM: Well, you know, Joey, back in my Court TV days, long time ago, we used to talk about all of these cases, and we used to say, "They don`t
catch the smart ones. OK. The guy who leaves his ID there with his name and address and then he`s on camera, I mean, that guy is going to get caught.
JACKSON: That`s a bit of a problem, you know, police generally, you get DNA evidence, you get fingerprint evidence, you get hair fibers. CSI Miami, but
here you handed an ID, you`re seen on camera and captured the next morning. How easy could it be and you know what, Alex Sanchez, they deserve to make
fun of this particular criminal.
BLOOM: I mean, can you just briefly (ph).
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: they sure do.
BLOOM: . it`s nice to see a sense of humor, isn`t it with cops?
JOHNSON: You know, let`s just file this in the dumb criminal file and your people would be surprised how many people tell on themselves now with
advent of social media, people are bragging about their crimes before the world, so, you know, we love it .
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: And here the cops are doing it, too .
JOHNSON: . and thank you.
BLOOM: . and they`re laughing and they`re having a great time. Well, we are out of time. Thank you so much for watching. It`s been a pleasure filling
in for Ashleigh Banfield this week. Ashleigh will be back here on Monday night for "Primetime Justice." Have a great holiday weekend. "Forensic
Files" starts right now.
END
