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: U.S. Expels 35 Diplomats Over Russian Hacking; Interview with Representative Trent Franks; Trump Says Move on From Hacking; Trump to Meet Intel Leaders; Nationwide Ceasefire Holding. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired December 30, 2016 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:04] POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Clearly, though, he is expected to continue to assume office. That's expected to happen only one minute into the new year -- Kate.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: That fight continues. Polo, thanks.

And thank you all for joining me. Our coverage continues right now with Jim Sciutto.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Jim Sciutto in for Wolf Blitzer. We welcome our viewers from around the world. It is 1:00 p.m. here on this very windy day in Washington, and we are right outside the U.S. capital where in just 21 days Donald Trump will be sworn in as the 45th president of the United States.

Our political panel is standing by to talk about the president-elect and we're going to get to them in just a moment. But we start with the Russian saying no to retaliation for now. It was expected even feared by some that Russia would strike back after the White House announced new sanctions yesterday, but even though Russia threw out a few threats before the announcement they have decided to play the waiting game and perhaps wait for a new president to come on January 20th.

Here is some of the statement from Russian President Vladimir Putin. "Considering the special responsibility of Russia and the U.S. to keep global security, it damages the entire complex of international ties. Reserving the right to retaliate, the restoration of Russian-American relations will be built on the basis of the policy, which will be carried out by the administration of President Donald Trump."

All of this comes on the heels of the Obama administration announcement of sanctions on several Russian individuals and entities for meddling in the U.S. presidential election. 35 Russian diplomats are also being expelled. They have fewer than 72 hours to leave now. Two Russian compounds in New York and Maryland are being closed. U.S. says Russia tried to influence the results of the election, and at the same time destroy the integrity of the whole U.S. system.

But Russia is saying the sanctions are just an unfair parting shot from President Obama. Here's what we heard from Russian prime minister Dmitri Medvedev. He said, quote, "It is regrettable that the Obama administration which started by restoring our ties is ending its term in an anti-Russian agony. Rest in peace."

Joining me from Moscow is CNN senior international correspondent Matthew Chance and from Honolulu, our Athena Jones who's with the president there on vacation.

Mantle, if we could begin with you. How unexpected was this lack of retaliation from Russia and does it seem that Russia is in effect putting pressure on Donald Trump to reverse these sanctions when he goes into office?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it was totally unexpected. I mean, we'd been told by the Kremlin, we all had, the day before there was going to be the principle of -- came out wrong, reciprocity was going to be the principle that they were going to apply as they normally do. A tit for tat response to a 35 diplomats expelled -- Russian diplomats -- from the United States.

We're expecting the same number from here and indeed the Russian foreign minister appeared looking very solemn on Russian state television saying that's what he's recommending to the Kremlin that 35 U.S. diplomats should be asked to leave and should be moved away from their posts here in Russia, but that gave Vladimir Putin the opportunity for a bit of political theater, and he stepped back from that whole -- you know, that whole situation and said, no, I'm not going to do that.

I'm not going to make it more difficult for U.S. diplomats to work here. No one is going to be expelled and went a step further as well and saying look children during this holiday period, the children of those diplomats that are accredited here, I'm inviting them to the Kremlin to come and look at all the plays, all the spectaculars that are being staged at the Kremlin. Normally for Russian children. Inviting these American diplomatic kids as well.

And so, you know, he really did take the higher ground. He showed himself to be magnanimous and frankly made Obama's expulsion look petty and vindictive, and the words used by the Russian Foreign Ministry spokesperson, you know, after these sanctions were initially announced. He said, as you mentioned, he's looking forward for relations to improve between Russia and the United States determined by the policies of Donald Trump.

He's sweeping aside the last weeks of the Obama administration and focusing on that next administration of Donald Trump in the hope that he can build a good relationship with Trump a good relationship with that administration. He needs it because he wants to turn over those sanctions, he wants Americans to be involved in the peace process in Syria and he wants all sorts of other issues that have divided these two countries over the past couple of years to be resolved -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: And let's not forget that he has a president coming in who has made many public statements of wanting to improve that relationship.

Athena, is there surprise in the Obama administration that there was no Russian retaliation? And I wonder, as a follow to that is there confidence that these sanctions will stand after Donald Trump takes office?

ATHENA JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim, no response yet from the White House to this non-response from the Russian president, but, remember, some of the actions the U.S. has said it's going to take are going to be covert actions, unannounced actions. And so that certainly could also be the case on the Russia side of this equation.

[13:05:06] So even while you don't have President Putin expelling U.S. diplomats that doesn't necessarily mean that he's not taking any action. And if you talk to a White House official, they say two things. One, they expect that Russia will respond in some way and they also expect that Russia will continue its cyber hacking activities. So certainly continuing trying to carry out these cyber hacking activities. And so they stand ready to respond to that.

As for whether the sanctions will be reversed by a President Trump, one of the White House officials who spoke on a call with reporters yesterday said, hypothetically, you could reverse them, but I don't think that would be a good idea. You now have Republicans on Capitol Hill, for instance, the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, John McCain, who's going to be having a hearing on this whole cyber hacking issue next week.

That could put pressure on a President Trump and of course this full review the Obama administration has ordered of cyber hacking activities going back many years. They're hoping that with more information, President Trump might reach a different decision. But that is the billion-dollar question whether these sanctions are going to stand -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: Athena Jones, Matthew Chance, thanks very much.

Ahead this hour, we will talk with the ranking member of the House Intelligence Committee about the actions taken against Russia. But joining us right now is the congressman who says that Russia may have merely been doing what the media should have done. That is the U.S. media. Republican Representative Trent Franks of Arizona, he's a member of the Armed Services Committee and he joins us now live from Scottsdale, Arizona.

Congressman, thanks very much taking the time today.

REP. TRENT FRANKS (R), ARIZONA: Thanks for having me on, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Let me ask you first, what's your reaction to these steps taken by the Obama administration against Russia?

FRANKS: Well, you know, since Mr. Obama first came into office, he has had this mindset at the very beginning that the entire Cold War was just some sort of giant misunderstanding. He stood by and watched Russia march into Ukraine and even though we had an agreement with Ukraine to protect their national sovereignty, or at least their territorial sovereignty. He stood by and watched as the Russians bombed Aleppo into oblivion after he had his famous red line. Now 400,000 people are dead. Four million refugees. He took out our missile defense and stabbed Poland in the back and

Czech Republic in the back, all to placate Russia, and now he suddenly finds his tongue when he sees an opportunity to try to use to, quote, delegitimize, quote/unquote, the election of Donald Trump to be the president, and I find --

SCIUTTO: To be fair, President Obama has not said that Russian -- to be fair, President Obama, the administration has not said that the hacking delegitimizes Donald Trump. That's something that Donald Trump and his aides have talked about. He's talked about this, as have many Republicans, your colleagues and colleagues in the Senate, about this being an attack on American democracy. Not a -- not one party or the other party but an attack on the whole U.S. political system.

FRANKS: I am completely convinced that Barack Obama's primary motivation is to try to delegitimize the election here because the fact is, you know, the media sort of ignored a lot of the WikiLeaks -- the releases there. The only thing they could talk about was somehow the Russian connection, that's what gave it any legs at all. And now, of course, after the election, this is the reason that Hillary Clinton lost. And I find that to be untenable.

SCIUTTO: Let me contest that one point as a member of the media and an employee of CNN, where we did numerous stories on a daily basis regarding content of those e-mails as released by WikiLeaks. But if I can I just want to quote you from an interview with MSNBC yesterday. You said the following. "If Russian succeeded in giving the American people information that was accurate and they merely did what the media should have done," I wonder, are you inviting foreign countries to illegally penetrate U.S. systems, e-mails systems, et cetera?

FRANKS: Well, of course not. Those statements were completely misconstrued. And I would suggest, Jim, that you are aware that. If you saw the whole interview you would have been. No one has been harder on Russia than me. I have been deeply committed to making sure that they're expansionism and their efforts did not result in the deaths of innocent people across the world, and I have been absolutely bewildered at how Barack Obama has stood by and let them do all of these things.

And of course, now, I think it's important here to keep in mind that the Congress hasn't been fully briefed on this. In fact, fully is an overstatement. The fact is, we haven't had the kinds of clear information, and you'll have to forgive me, because Barack Obama, this is the same gentleman who said you can figure -- you can keep your --

SCIUTTO: Let me ask you about that statement because I've spoken -- this is a familiar point, I've heard it from other Republicans that somehow Congress has been kept in the dark on this. But the fact is, the House and Senate Intelligence Committees, Republican and Democratic members, have in fact been briefed repeatedly on the intelligence behind this assessment.

[13:10:05] And as you know several of your colleagues in the House and several of your GOP colleagues in the Senate, Senator McCain and Graham, for instance, are convinced that Russia is behind this attack, in fact, they're calling for stiffer penalties. So what is the -- what exactly is the basis for saying --

(CROSSTALK)

FRANKS: I'm all about --

SCIUTTO: -- that the evidence is somehow --

FRANKS: The penalties against Russia are long overdue and I absolutely favor the sanctions. I'm suggesting that they came too late and at the motivation that is completely hidden to the public right now. All of a sudden this man finds his tongue after Russia's done all of these things because he sees a political advantage.

Again, this is the same gentleman that said, if you want your doctor, you can keep it. That al Qaeda is on the run. That ISIS is a JV team and he tells Israel when the chips are down, I've got your back, and now the world finally sees the knife that was in his hand. So you'll have to forgive me --

SCIUTTO: Well, Congressman --

FRANKS: -- if I'm a little bit careful about what I believe that this administration says or does.

SCIUTTO: Well, it is -- not this administration but the 16 intelligence agencies that have made that assessment. But I just want to ask you this point. Your record on Russia stands for itself and you have been very tough. Are you and you cite Russian steps -- let's set aside the election hacking, but the killing of civilians in Aleppo, for instance, the annexation of Crimea, military activity in eastern Ukraine. These despite the --

FRANKS: Weren't those worthy of being responded to before now?

SCIUTTO: Well, that's not my decision, but what I'm going to ask you is President Donald Trump, despite all that --

FRANKS: No. But it was Barack Obama's decision.

SCIUTTO: No, no. But I'm asking about the incoming president of the United States. President Trump -- elect Trump, despite all of that is calling for a cozier relationship with Russia. In fact, he's dismissed some of those steps as unimportant. He's talked at times of letting the annexation of Crimea stand.

I wonder, if light of your own tough, substantive record on Russia if you're concerned about those positions of the incoming president?

FRANKS: Well, I will just say this. I said this on CNN here just a week ago. That Vladimir Putin knows there's going to be a different person in the White House, and he is going to take a different tactic, in my judgment, because he realizes if he doesn't change his trajectory that he's going to see pushback from the United States. And I can't express to you how hopeful I am that the Trump administration will take charge as soon as possible, because under this president, under Barack Obama, we have seen ourselves weakened across the world and we've seen Russian strength magnified, we've seen Vladimir Putin mop the world with our president.

And now I think that's about to change. So I hope -- my positions aren't going to change a great deal. I mean, that's 30 years to take a look at. I've been a strong defense hawk and I will continue to be. And anything that Russia did to invade our systems should be met with clear and unequivocal response, and I want to say this, this happens every day, and it's just amazing to me that after all the things Russia has done, and all the innocent people that have died, innocent men, women and children have died because of their belligerence.

SCIUTTO: Congressman --

FRANKS: Now Barack Obama finally finds his tongue on his way out in a lame duck session and I find that bewildering.

SCIUTTO: Congressman Franks, I apologize, we do have to leave it there but I appreciate your thoughts on that and --

FRANKS: All right. It's OK. Thanks very much.

SCIUTTO: And on a broader Russian issue. Thank you for taking the time.

Later this hour, we will go live to the Pentagon for an update on the coalition's efforts to capture Abu Baqr al-Baghdadi, the leader of ISIS. But up next, our panel is here to talk about President-elect Trump's plans for Russia once he is sworn in.

We'll be back with the panel right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:17:05] SCIUTTO: Welcome back.

We have some interesting video that's just into CNN. It was shot moments ago outside the Russian embassy here in Washington, D.C. In that video, what you're watching now, we see these vans arriving. And to be clear, these vans were coming from that Russian facility, it's in Centreville, Maryland, which was one of the two facilities ordered closes at noon Eastern today as part of are the Obama administration response to Russia's meddling in the U.S. election process. We don't know if those vehicles are carrying some of those 35 Russian diplomats, which the U.S. believes are intelligence operatives who have been ordered to leave the country. We're going to continue following this and we will update when we know more.

President-elect Donald Trump and the Russian leader, Vladimir Putin, are sending similar messages over the new sanctions against Moscow. Both men essentially saying they are looking beyond that. Trump says, it's time for the U.S. to, quote, "move on" to bigger and better things, , while Putin announced this morning he will not retaliate against the U.S. One question now, does part of moving on potentially include reversing those sanctions once, in 21 days, Trump takes office? He could if he wanted to do, but Homeland Security Adviser Lisa Monaco told CNN yesterday it would be highly unusual.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LISA MONACO, HOMELAND SECURITY AND COUNTERTERRORISM ADVISER: The reversal of sanctions, such as what you've described, would be highly unusual. Indeed, the sanctions usually remain in place until the activity and the reasons for them being imposed in the first place has been removed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: That was Lisa Monaco.

We also learned a short time ago, the Senate Armed Services Committee, led by John McCain, will hold a hearing next Thursday to talk about concerns over foreign cyber threats and the future. You may remember earlier this week, Senator John McCain told us from his travels in Europe that he would do just that.

So, let's talk all of this over with my panel. We have Rebecca Berg, CNN political analyst and national political reporter for Real Clear Politics, Aaron Blakee, he is senior political reporter for "The Washington Post," and Jackie Kucinich, CNN political analyst and Washington bureau chief for "The Daily Beast."

Jackie, and I - perhaps I'll ask all of you your opinion on this. Listening to Congressman Franks there, this is a sort of developing response to this Russian hacking response by the U.S. administration from Trump supporters. It's, you know, they say, well, we're not sure Russia did it, but we have to be tougher on Russia.

JACKIE KUCINICH, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Right.

SCIUTTO: And Obama was never tough enough. But their president denies the premise that Russia attacked and seems to say he doesn't want to be tougher. How do you rectify this? I mean there's division even within the Republican Party?

KUCINICH: It seems like they're talking past each other right now. They're not really willing to address Trump's position. But to be honest, this is headed for a collision course no matter how you slice it. If Trump decides to roll back those sanctions, it is an executive order, it can be done away with by the next president. There's going to be some - a lot of political friction right out of the gate on The Hill. And not only that, when you see - when you saw what Mitch McConnell put out last night, when you saw what Paul Ryan put out, they were saying what Obama did was too little, too late. They want harsher sanctions on Russia. So it really is going to be some very interesting politics playing out on Capitol Hill right out of the gate.

[13:20:07] SCIUTTO: Interesting.

And, Aaron, you know, there's been a lot of talk about, what's the first fight that the Democrats are going to pick with Donald Trump, right, in this new administration with majorities for Republicans in both houses? In reality it's going to be the first fight between Republicans and their own president because you have McCain saying he's going to have hearings next week and you have a majority of senators, it seems, saying they want tougher sanctions, not a reversal of these.

AARON BLAKE, SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER, "THE WASHINGTON POST": Right. And you have President Obama to thank in large part for that in, you know, instituting these sanctions in the closing days of presidency effectively pits Trump against these more hawkish Republicans. The sanctions will be in place now. It will be up to Donald Trump to get rid of them if he wants to. He's going to get some resistance from that from people like McCain.

I think that the - the interview with Congressman Franks was a perfect example how this issue is tying Republicans in knots right now. There is no good answer on this right now. As you mentioned it's not - President Obama hasn't said that Trump would have lost without this. Nobody's said that so directly in arguing that this is important. But it's kind of inherent in the issue. Donald Trump won by less than 1 percent in the three states that mattered in this election. And so you can't really have this conversation and say it mattered without questioning whether it actually made the difference. And so that's why you're seeing members like Trent Franks, Ted Yoho, who you talked to yesterday, you know, making a few arguments about how this wasn't that significant, there wasn't a big impact and how it's just true information that was coming out.

SCIUTTO: Rebecca Berg, before we go, I'm going to ask you to get inside the head of Donald Trump here for a moment, if you can.

REBECCA BERG, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Probably not.

SCIUTTO: Does Donald - does Donald Trump not believe that Russia's behind the hacking, generally doubt it, or is he most concerned about the implication that it delegitimizes him if Russia did hack the election?

BERG: My sense based on what he has said publicly, I couldn't claim to get inside the head of Donald Trump necessarily on this, but based on what he has said publicly, Jim, I would say it seems to be the latter. He is worried about what this says about his victory, because as we all know, he's receiving the same intelligence briefings on this that the president has received. He now is receiving classified briefings and so he would have that information from the intelligence community that Russia was behind this, and now much of that is also public as well.

But he has expressed that this is politically driven. That Democrats are pushing this issue because they want to undermine his victory. And I think that's a big part of this for him. And so my question moving forward is, if Russia continues with this sort of activity in a contact separate from the election, will he then respond in a more forceful way? I think that will be a question a lot of Republicans on The Hill are asking as well.

SCIUTTO: No question. Rebecca Berg, Aaron Blake, Jackie Kucinich, thanks so much, as always.

I'll see all of them again in just a few minutes.

And up next, the cease-fire between the Syrian government forces and opposition groups is holding for now. Did Russia's involvement put Russian President Vladimir Putin in the quagmire that President Obama predicted? We're got a live report from the region, and that's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:26:35] SCIUTTO: The first full day of a nationwide cease-fire in Syria is holding for the most part. There were early reports of small pockets of violence, but Syria's military says it stopped its operations at midnight, except for campaigns against ISIS and other troop - groups they designate as terrorists.

CNN's Muhammad Lila is covering the story for us live from Istanbul, Turkey.

Russian President Vladimir Putin announced the cease-fire, yet he described it as very fragile.

Muhammad -

MUHAMMAD LILA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Jim, you know, I don't know anyone -

SCIUTTO: What are your thoughts?

LILA: On the ground is under any illusions. Well, Jim, I don't think anyone on the ground is under any illusions that this was going to be an easy process. In fact, it's proving to be the opposite. Very difficult to monitor and enforce this cease-fire when there is so many different groups on the ground that are not only fighting the Assad government, but in many cases they're also fighting each other. I mean the good news is that we're almost coming up to the 24-hour mark of the cease-fire and all of the groups involved, meaning Turkey, Russia, Iran and Syria, none of them have reported any kind of fighting that would push this over to the edge, saying that the cease-fire has been violated. So so far it's looking like it will hold. And, of course, it does hold, it's just going to be more proof of how powerful Russia and Turkey have become in this conflict. This cease-fire would not have started, quite frankly, if it wasn't for Turkey and Russia getting together and saying, look, let's put together a plan to put an end to the fighting. And if it does prove successful, they will have done some that the United States has proven incapable of doing, which was somehow miraculously getting Syria on the road to solving this crisis that's killed 400,000 people, including people on both sides.

SCIUTTO: Muhammad Lila, thanks very much.

I want to dig deeper into what's happening in Syria, and we have Ambassador Robert Ford. He was ambassador to Syria. Of course he's joining us now from Moosehead Lake in Maine. Ambassador Ford, you look at this, just in the simplest terms, is this

a positive development? The State Department is calling it a positive step.

ROBERT FORD, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO SYRA: Well, I certainly think it's a positive step. It means there will be a reduction in bloodshed, and it also means that fewer Syrians will be impelled to leave the country and end up as refugees in places like Lebanon, Turkey, or even Europe. So, yes, I think it's positive, if it holds. That's a big question.

SCIUTTO: Let me ask you this. Senator McCain, for instance, Senator Graham, they have said that this, in fact, means ceding Syria to Russia and to its partner, Iran. Is that a correct read of this?

FORD: Yes, I think it is. There's very little chance now that the Syrian armed opposition could force Syrian President Bashar al Assad from power, and Assad is a very close ally of Russia and Iran. He is a dependent on them and so really it is correct, Russia and Iran are - have now really consolidated their position in Syria.

SCIUTTO: And that, I imagine, means a diminishment of U.S. influence, certainly in Syria, and the end result, I imagine, in Syria?

[13:29:43] FORD: Absolutely. It mean as reduction in American influence in Syria. Not that American influence in Syria ever was very big. But now we have a new, permanent Russian air base in Syria that wasn't there two years ago. They've upgraded their navy base in Syria. And so the Russians are much stronger in this Levant (ph).