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Trump Mocks Intel on Hacks; Trump Sides with Assange. Aired 1- 1:30p ET

Aired January 04, 2017 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer. It's 1:00 p.m. here in Washington. Wherever you are watching from around the world, thanks very much for joining us.

We begin with two major battles. President-elect Donald Trump's war against U.S. intelligence agencies and the fight over the future of Obamacare.

President Obama and Vice President-elect Mike Pence both on Capitol Hill today with opposing goals. The president trying to salvage his namesake health care plan. The president-elect pushing to dismantle it.

Meantime, President-elect Trump ridicules the U.S. intelligence communities' findings on what he calls so-called Russian hacking.

He also appeared to give credence to claims by WikiLeaks founder, Julian Assange. Assange denies that Russia was the source of hacked e-mails published and released by WikiLeaks.

And we'll dig deeper into both stories this hour.

Let's begin with Capitol Hill. The showdown right now over Obamacare. President Obama and Vice President-elect Pence, they rallied their troops, and they laid out their battle plans.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Thank you, guys. Thank you. Look out for the American people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Sources say the president told Democrats not to, quote, "rescue Republicans by approving something worse to replace Obamacare." A replacement plan he calls Trumpcare.

Senate minority leader Chuck Schumer says the Republicans would, quote, "make America sick again."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D), MINORITY LEADER: They don't know what to do once they repeal. One of my colleagues called it repeal and run. But it's a huge colleague (ph) problem as well because now they're responsible for the entire health care system. And it will be on their backs. And I believe a year from now, they will regret that they came out so fast out of the box to repeal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Vice President-elect Mike Pence says Republicans intend to keep their promise while heeding President-elect Trump's advice to be careful.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: It was clear here as the American people have spoken. They want to see us repeal and replace Obamacare.

And, today, my message to members of the Congress is that we are going to be in the promise keeping business. And the first order of business is to keep our promise to repeal Obamacare and replace it with the kind of health care reform that will lower the cost of health insurance without growing the size of government.

You read his tweet this morning that he has admonished the Congress to be careful. And I reiterated that before the Republican conference today.

Look, we're talking about people's lives.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Our Senior Political Reporter Manu Raju is joining us now from Capitol Hill. Manu, what more have you learned about the strategies by Republicans and Democrats in this battle that is emerging now over Obamacare?

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: Yes, indeed, Wolf, the battle lines are being drawn.

At this meeting earlier today, President Obama telling Democrats to stand firm behind efforts to -- stand against efforts to dismantle this law and coming up with strategies that actually emulate what Tea Party activists did to Obama's efforts to actually pass the health care law in 2009.

You'll remember back in 2009, Tea Party activists and Republicans and conservatives alike stormed town halls, expressed their opposition in key House districts, in key Senate states.

And, as a result, Democrats were in a very difficult political spot. They ended up losing the House of representatives that election cycle.

President Obama saying we should do the same to the Republicans now. They should pay a political price if they decide to do this. Because he was arguing inside this private meeting today that a vast majority of voters actually support what is in that law. And it was greeted favorably by most Democrats.

Now, Wolf, not every Democrat was at that meeting. In fact, one Democrat, a prominent one, skipped it. That is Joe Manchin of West Virginia who is up for re-election in 2018 in a very conservative state.

And I had a chance to talk to him, just a few moments ago, about why he decided to skip the meeting. Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JOE MANCHIN (D), WEST VIRGINIA: The first order of business was to have -- I have all the respect in the world -- our president, who is outgoing, coming up and speaking only to Democrats, telling us why we should keep something. I'm not for repealing it. I'm for repairing it. So, nothing is going to change.

On the other hand, we have newly elected vice president Pence coming up talking only to Republicans telling them why they should get rid of something. And bottom line is we should be talking to each other. Why can't they just invite everybody?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Now, Joe Manchin also telling me that he's actually trying to set up a meeting with Mike Pence, as we speak, as early as today to discuss health care.

And that's significant, Wolf, because not many Democrats are talking with Republicans about a possible compromise.

[13:05:03] So, a bit of news with Joe Manchin saying he mainly wants to meet with Mike Pence. But the Republicans still have a very, very far way to go in order to replace the health care law.

Right now, they're in the process of trying to repeal the law first. There's actually a vote happening right now in the Senate to begin the process that will take several weeks to actually repeal the law.

But assuming they repeal most of the law, to replace it is going to take Democrats and Republicans joining hands to overcome a likely Democratic filibuster.

And there's no sign whatsoever to anyone other than Joe Manchin who is open to working with Republicans by replacing this law because of polarizing divisiveness on the issue.

And we saw that today. Both Vice President-elect Pence and President Obama making their cases to their caucuses today. There's no real effort to bridge that divide. Such a polarizing issue -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Yes, this battle is only just beginning.

All right, thanks very much. Manu Raju up on Capitol Hill.

When it claims to claims that Russia was behind last year's campaign hackings here in the United States, the president-elect seems to be taking the word of WikiLeaks founder, Julian Assange, over that of the U.S. intelligence agencies.

Trump tweeted this. And I'm quoting him now, "Julian Assange said a 14-year-old could have hacked Podesta. Why was the DNC so careless?"

Also said Russians did not give him the info. Trump was referencing this interview that Assange gave to Fox News.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JULIAN ASSANGE, FOUNDER, WIKILEAKS: We can say, and we have said repeatedly over the last two months, that our source is not the Russian government, and it is not a state party.

Why such a dramatic response? Well, the reason is obvious. They're trying to delegitimatize the Trump administration as it goes into the White House.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Trump also mocks the U.S. intelligence community tweeting this. The -- quote, "the intelligence briefing on so-called Russian hacking was delayed until Friday. Perhaps more time needed to build a case. Very strange."

We should note, Trump's comment is getting a lot of pushback from U.S. intelligence officials who say there was no delay in briefing him. That it was always scheduled for later this week. And that not even President Obama has seen the final report by the U.S. intelligence community on the hacking.

I want to bring in our Chief National Security Correspondent Jim Sciutto. Jim, first, your reaction to Trump citing Julian Assange on this issue. A man who has written that the goal is to undermine the U.S. and other governments.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's an incredible friend for an American president to choose, to trust here.

Julian Assange has attacked the U.S. under -- keep in mind, Republican and Democratic presidents, going back to 2006, targeting the U.S. military, targeting U.S. diplomatic cables and then, of course, the DNC leading up to the election.

He's written manifestos that say that he -- his intention and WikiLeaks intention is to go after, what he calls, secrecy-based authoritarian conspiracy governments which includes the U.S. That's how he describes the U.S.

His goal, through these releases, is to undermine the U.S. government. So, to have an American president, an incoming president, one, praise him, in effect.

And, two, take his word over the 17 U.S. intelligence agencies is really just -- I mean, remarkable is probably an understatement. But it is -- it is truly unprecedented.

BLITZER: It certainly is.

Let's talk a little bit about the importance of the U.S. intelligence agency, the information it provides a president of the United States.

And the president-elect will have to use intel from these agencies to make life and death decisions to keep Americans safe, to protect U.S. national security.

And you're already sensing a negative reaction, pretty negative reaction in the intelligence community.

SCIUTTO: No question. Well, it is safe to say that Donald Trump is virtually alone on this, right? Because you have the intelligence agencies determining with confidence that Russia is behind these hacks.

You have Republican and Democratic lawmakers accepting that assessment. Mitch McConnell, Republican Majority Leader; Paul Ryan, Republican Speaker of the House. You know, forget the Democrats in the Obama administration. Republicans accepting it as well.

So, Donald Trump is largely alone in this denial or dismissing of the U.S. intelligence community in this assessment. And keep in mind, it's not just on hacking, right?

I mean, the U.S. intelligence community looks at Russia as a threat, in terms of its nuclear arsenal, in terms of its annexation of Crimea, invasion of East Ukraine, activity against civilians in Syria, et cetera.

So, big picture, that's where U.S. defense and intelligence communities stand.

So, who's going to tell Donald Trump when, for instance, North Korea has a nuclear-capable missile of hitting the west coast of the United States? It's the U.S. intelligence community. He's going to have to rely on them.

[13:10:04] Who's going to tell Donald Trump that a major terror attack is pending or immanent on the U.S.? It's going to be the U.S. intelligence community.

So, if he doesn't trust him now, will he trust them then? It's an open question. We just don't know.

BLITZER: Jim Sciutto reporting for us. Thank you.

The Vice President-elect Mike Pence, he's defending Donald Trump up on Capitol Hill. Listen to what he said earlier this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PENCE: I think, given some of the intelligence failures of recent years, that the president-elect has made it clear to the American people that he's skeptical about conclusions from the bureaucracy. And I think the American people hear him loud and clear.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: All right, let's talk about that. Joining us now, David Gregory is our CNN Political Analyst, the author of the book "How's Your Faith?" And Dana Bash is joining us, our Chief Political Correspondent.

Pence, he came to Donald Trump's defense today when he was asked this question, saying that what's wrong with having a healthy skepticism, if you will, of the U.S. intelligence community?

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: He should. Everybody should have healthy skepticism of every institution. It's what helps this democracy run. However, when you are the president-elect tweeting things, like putting intelligence in quotes in the morning.

And in addition to tweeting about Julian Assange who, if he were in America, would probably be -- would certainly be tried for treason. And saying that -- or suggesting that he relies more on Julian Assange that the intelligence community is mind-bending.

Especially when you, kind of, take a step back and listen to people inside the intelligence community. Obviously, they come from a very specific perspective. But more about just operationally.

And, Wolf, you know this better than anybody. That a commander in chief, a president of the United States, not only relies, as Jim was saying, on the intelligence community and the intelligence agencies, they are there for him.

So, if he wants to make a clandestine operation and say, you know, I need this to be done, they're the people to carry it out.

Not only that, there are intelligence assets and officials all around the world who are dealing with foreign governments and foreign entities who are potentially going to be undermined because they are going to go to their intelligence -- U.S. Intelligence counterparts and say, why should I believe you? You don't even have the trust of the American president.

It's really a slippery slope.

BLITZER: What's behind Donald Trump's skepticism, shall we say, of the U.S. intelligence community? There's a bigger picture.

DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, I think Trump is operating as a brand and not a president-elect. The Trump brand is to disrupt our political system. It is to question and up end a lot of institutional life in America, using the media, up ending politics as we know it.

And now, he's doing that as president-elect by saying, I'm not going to believe the intelligence community. You know, and I'm going to take on Congress in this way and take them on in that way.

It's not clear that he is actually prepared to lead and -- lead the agencies that are there to serve the American president.

And I think to the point that Dana was making, there's all of that peril. And that's the question. Does he literally pop off on Twitter and elsewhere and, kind of, shake the trees a little bit?

And then, he has a team that works a little bit more seriously within the government? I don't know what the answer to that is.

I think what's clear, from a policy point of view, is that he wants to get off to a relationship with Russia. That he thinks he, alone, has an opportunity to reset that relationship.

And, frankly, he's very sensitive about anything that appears to be stacking against his legitimacy, which I think he must feel the Obama administration is behind with the leaking, the intelligence community is behind with the leaking of the hacking that is all, kind of, stacked against him.

And so, he's floating all these other theories that other people are involved. I think that's what's behind this all.

BLITZER: Is he so sensitive to any question about whether or not the election was appropriate, if you will?

BASH: That's right. But I think this Julian Assange issue deserves another beat, because he does seem now, in the past 24 hours, with the help of Sean Hannity of Fox who did the lengthy interview with him.

And now, Sarah Palin who put on her Facebook page an apology for criticizing him after he --

BLITZER: For criticizing Julian Assange.

BASH: She criticized Julian Assange for releasing her e-mails when she was governor of Alaska. Apologizing and saying that everybody should go see the movie "Snowden."

So, in the past 24 hours, there has been this weird 180, not just in the conservative world, but in the conservative Trump loyalist world.

All of a sudden, Julian Assange is, like, you know, a hero and somebody who everybody should applaud.

And is it because it could help, from the perspective of Trump, his legitimacy and, you know, questions that he thinks people are putting out into the ether about his winning the White House? Unclear.

But using this man as the kind of beacon of credibility --

[13:15:05] GREGORY: He doesn't have any credibility. I mean, that's just --

BLITZER: You're talking about Julian Assange?

GREGORY: Julian Assange doesn't have credibility, right. But that's -- look, this is also where you're going to have a fight with Congress. You have Republicans and you have Democrats who want to get to the bottom of this hacking business. The president-elect apparently does not. That's a potential conflict.

BLITZER: Let's see what the president-elect says Friday after he's briefed by the heads of the U.S. intelligence community.

BASH: Right.

GREGORY: Right.

BLITZER: He's given all this information. It will be fascinating to see how he emerges from that meeting.

All right, guys.

An important note. Next Thursday, House Speaker Paul Ryan will be joining our own Jake Tapper for a CNN town hall this next Thursday, 9:00 p.m. Eastern, only here on CNN.

Coming up, Republican Senator Lindsey Graham says he hopes no American gets, quote, "duped" by Julian Assange, just hours after President- elect Trump tweeted about him. We're going to talk to a member of Trump's transition team.

Plus, inside the meeting with President Obama as he strategizes to save his signature program Obamacare. We talk to a Democrat who invited him to Capitol Hill today.

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[13:19:57] BLITZER: Welcome back.

President-elect Donald Trump appears to side with the WikiLeaks boss Julian Assange, instead of the U.S. intelligence community, over Russia's role in the hacking of the Democratic National Committee. And reactions, they are pouring in. Here's Republican Senator Lindsey Graham.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: I hope no American will be duped by him. I hope the president-elect will get his information and trust the American patriots who work in the intelligence community who swear oath and allegiance to the Constitution and not some guy hiding from the law who has a record of undercutting and undermining American democracy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Then there was this tweet from George Little, a former spokesman for the CIA. Quote, "let's stare this reality square in the face. PEOTUS," the president-elect of the United States, "is pro-Putin and believes Julian Assange over the CIA. On January 20th we will be less safe," close quote.

Joining us now, one of the vice chairs of the Trump transition team, Congresswoman Marsha Blackburn, Tennessee.

Congresswoman, thanks very much for joining us.

REP. MARSHA BLACKBURN (R), TENNESSEE: Sure. Yes.

BLITZER: The director of the CIA also had a direct message for Donald Trump and anyone else who doubts Russia was behind last year's hacking. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN BRENNAN, CIA DIRECTOR: There is no intelligence community worldwide that has the capabilities, the expertise, the analytic capability as the U.S. intelligence community. And so I would suggest to individuals who have not yet seen the report, who have not yet been briefed on it, that they wait and see what it is that the intelligence community is putting forward before they make those judgments.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Congresswoman, bottom line, does the president-elect trust the WikiLeaks founder over the U.S. intelligence community on this issue?

BLACKBURN: Wolf, I've not talked directly with the president-elect about that. But I can tell you this, I know he has tremendous respect for our intelligence community, tremendous respect for our military intelligence. I know he relies on that and on the briefings that he gets. And I have no doubt that he is listening to what they have to say and is going to heed their advice that they bring to the table for him.

BLITZER: So when the president-elect tweets that, quote, "perhaps" agencies need more time in the intelligence community to build a case on the Russian hacking, he puts in quotes, "Russian hacking," is he insinuating that the intelligence community doesn't have evidence against Russia? That instead they're simply trying to create a narrative that isn't there?

BLACKBURN: I think like many of us on The Hill, what we want to do is have a classified briefing on this. We want our intelligence committees to have the opportunity to look into this hacking, to also go back and look at the OPM hacking that they said was carried out by China, the 2015 hacking.

And, Wolf, the other component of this we, have to remember that 2014 was deemed the year of the breach because of the number of breaches and hackings that transpired that year. Congress needs to get its act together and pass the data security legislation that you and I have talked about many times. We need to look at privacy provisions and a privacy toolbox that is made available to individuals.

And, of course, there needs to be more work in that cyber component. Whether you're looking at our critical infrastructure or whether you're dealing with the cyber warfare component. You've got bad actors like Russia, like China, like Iran that have cyber warfare units. And what we need to do is admit that that is out there and then we need a plan where we are going to be able to be well informed and to fight back in the appropriate manner.

BLITZER: So when the U.S. intelligence community concluded -- and this is back in October -- and issued a statement, October 7th of last year --

BLACKBURN: Yes.

BLITZER: I'll read a couple of sentences from it.

BLACKBURN: Sure.

BLITZER: "The U.S. intelligence community is confident that the Russian government directed the recent compromises of emails from U.S. persons and institutions, including from U.S. political organizations," referring to the DNC. And then goes on to say, "we believe, based on the scope and sensitivity of these efforts, that only Russia's senior most officials could have authorized these activities."

Congresswoman, do you accept that bottom line conclusion because clearly Donald Trump so far does not?

BLACKBURN: I think that there's plenty that is out there that shows that Russia was, in part or either in whole, responsible for hackings. We don't know if it was one hacking or if there were other entities that hacked.

And, Wolf, building out that full picture, was it Russia plus one other bad actor or two others? Where were they located? What were the algorithms? What was the tipping? All of this is information that I, for one, would like to know.

[13:25:08] BLITZER: Because they -- well, you're talking about bad actors in the statement that the director of National Intelligence, General Clapper, put out together with the secretary of Homeland Security. They did say the recent disclosures of alleged hacked emails on sites like DClleaks.com, WikiLeaks, and Goosifer 2.0 online persona, they are consistent with the methods and motivations of Russian directed efforts. Are those the bad actors you're talking about, the -- the organizations that actually leaked and published that information?

BLACKBURN: Every one of those would be -- every one of those would be bad -- yes, every one of those would be considered, in my mind, to be bad actors. Now, I think one of the frustration is that many that are involved with the DNC hacking have is the exposure that came to the American people from those e-mails. You know, it confirmed to the American people in part some of what they thought was going on. And so they got that insight by reading those e-mails as to what was going on at the DNC and some of the actions that were being taken there.

So I think that that is part of their frustration, you know, and the -- the Russians did not take control of Podesta's keyboard or anybody else's keyboard and write those emails, and so that's one that I think that's a separate issue.

BLITZER: One final question before I let you go, congresswoman.

BLACKBURN: Sure.

BLITZER: I know you've got to run. Are you comfortable with Donald Trump using the WikiLeaks founder, Julian Assange, as a credible source?

BLACKBURN: Mr. Trump has a direct line of communication with the American people. And much of what the American people have quested about what was going on in the DNC and other areas was revealed through -- through those -- through those leaks. I'm going to continue to wait to hear from our intel committee chairman, Chairman Nunes, and we, in the House, are going to look forward to having a classified briefing so that we can be informed on exactly what it was, how long it went on and what they know about who all participated in the hackings that took place -- that took place this fall. And I hope they go back and they look at what happened in 2015 with China and the OPM hacking. We -- we still have -- we have some unresolved issues around that.

BLITZER: So, very quickly, is Julian Assange a credible source?

BLACKBURN: I don't know if I would put a whole lot of trust in Julian Assange. I'm certain he has his own reasoning. I do know that he has made some things available on -- through WikiLeaks and it has affected not only our country, it's affected leaders in other countries. But it's not someone that I put on page one to find out what's going on. I listen to you, Wolf.

BLITZER: All right. Congresswoman Marsha Blackburn of Tennessee, thanks so much for joining us.

BLACKBURN: Thanks.

BLITZER: Up next, the political fight over Obamacare and the real impact on Americans who are currently enrolled. We're going to break down the numbers for you when we come back.

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