Return to Transcripts main page

Wolf

Testimony For and Against Jeff Sessions at Confirmation Hearing. Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired January 11, 2017 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

SEN. CORY BOOKER (D), NEW JERSEY: One of the victories of the modern civil rights movement was the 1957 Civil Rights Act which, in effect, made the attorney general not only the chief law enforcement officer of the United States, but also vested in that office the responsibility to pursue civil rights and equal protection for all of America.

[13:30:11]

Senator Sessions has not demonstrated a commitment to a central requisite of the job, to aggressively pursue the congressional mandate of civil rights, equal rights and justice for all of our citizens. In fact, at numerous times in his career he has demonstrated a hostility towards these convictions and has worked to frustrate attempts to advance these ideals.

If confirmed, Senator Sessions will be required to pursue justice for women, but his record indicates that he won't. He will be expected to defend the equal rights of gay and lesbian and transgender Americans, but his record indicates that he won't. He will be expected to defend voting rights, but his record indicates that he won't. He will be expected to defend the rights of immigrants and affirm their human dignity, but the record indicates that he won't.

His record indicates that as attorney general he would object to the growing national bipartisan movement towards criminal justice reform. His record indicates that we cannot count on him to support state and national efforts towards bringing justice to the justice system and people on both sides of the aisle who readily admit that the justice system as it stands now is biased against the poor, against drug addicted, against mentally ill and against people of color.

His record indicates that a time that even the FBI director is speaking out against implicit racial bias and policing and the urgent need to address it, at a time when the last two attorney generals have taken steps to fix our broken criminal justice system, at a time when the Justice Department he would lead has uncovered systemic abuses in police departments all over the United States, including Ferguson, including Newark, Senator Sessions would not continue to lead this urgently needed change.

The next attorney general must bring hope and healing to the country. And this demands a more courageous empathy than Senator Sessions's record demonstrates. It demands an understanding that patriotism is love of country and love of country demands that we love all of our citizens, even the most marginalized, the most disadvantaged, the most degraded and the most unfortunate.

Challenges of race in America cannot be addressed if we refuse to confront them. Persistent biases cannot be defended unless we combat them. The arc of the moral universe does not just naturally curve towards justice, we must bend it.

If one is to be attorney general, they must be willing to continue the hallowed tradition in our country of fighting for justice for all, for equal justice, for civil rights. America needs an attorney general who is resolute and determined to bend the arc. Senator Sessions's record does not speak to that desire, intention or will.

With all that's at stake in our nation now, with the urgent need for healing and for love, I pray that my colleagues will join me in opposing his nomination.

Mr. Chairman, my time is over. I'd like to submit the rest of my testimony to the record. I'd like to again thank you for your opportunity to testify. And finally, I'd like to acknowledge, which was not done, that sitting behind me are proud members of the United States Congress and the Congressional Black Caucus.

Thank you, sir.

SEN. CHUCK GRASSLEY (R), IOWA: And you shouldn't have had to recognize them, I should have done that. I'm sorry.

BOOKER: Thank you, sir.

GRASSLEY: Because I knew they were here.

Mr. Huntley.

HUNTLEY: (OFF-MIKE)

GRASSLEY: Yeah, you've got to push the button.

HUNTLEY: I see, thank you. I'll start over briefly.

GRASSLEY: And you might pull the mike a little close to you, get as close as you can.

HUNTLEY: Good afternoon. That's much better. My name is Willie Huntley and I'm an attorney located in Mobile, Alabama. I'm a solo practitioner and I have been practicing law for over 30 years.

I'm a graduate of Auburn University where I attended college on a football scholarship. I graduated from Auburn in 1980 and I attended Cumberland Law School after that. I finished Cumberland Law School in 1984. After I finished law school, I started a federal clerkship with a federal judge in Montgomery, Alabama. After I completed that process, I began a tour with as an assistant district attorney in Macon County, Alabama. I was there from 1985 to 1987. Then my life changed. I got a phone call one day and my secretary comes in the office and she says Jeff Sessions is on the phone. And I'm sitting there wondering, why is Jeff Sessions calling me? I was well-aware of the allegations that had happened in his bid to become a federal judge, which made me wonder why he was calling me.

I answered the phone and then I find out that Jeff Sessions wants me to become an assistant United States attorney in the Southern District of Alabama. This presented an ideal situation, so I decided to take advantage of that. And the first time I actually met him was at a dinner in Montgomery. That dinner was supposed to last probably an hour, hour-and-a-half. We ended up meeting for about three hours.

During that time period, we discussed a number of topics, football, religion, politics, family, we talked about all those things. And during the course of that meeting with him, I got the feeling more and more and more that the allegations that had been spread through the press weren't true.

I also was contemplating whether I should make this move because I thought, if I go to Mobile, I don't know anybody there, I have no family there. And what if this man turns out to be exactly how he's been portrayed?

Fortunately, it didn't turn out like that. I was at the U.S. Attorney's Office from 1987 to 1991. He assigned me the general criminal trial cases. He also assigned me to civil rights cases and I would supervise all the civil rights cases that came through the office. During this time period, I can recall where we successfully prosecuted a police officer that was charged with excessive use of force.

Unfortunately, I made a decision to leave the U.S. Attorney's Office in 1991. That decision wasn't based on anything that had happened to me during my time period in the U.S. Attorney's Office. During that time period, Jeff gave me advice, counsel. He provided a great deal of support in everything that I did. One thing in particular that he did was, my second child was born and there was a knock on the door that morning and through the door walks Jeff Sessions.

After I left the U.S. Attorney's Office, Jeff became the attorney general of Alabama. He asked me to join his staff at that time, but I declined to join his staff. However, he made me a special assistant attorney general and he put me in charge of handling defense cases for the state of Alabama. Also during this time period, Jeff became charged with violating the state of Alabama ethics act. It involved a company by the name of Tyco. Jeff Sessions could have hired any lawyer he wanted to to represent him in that matter. Jeff decided to hire me in that particular case. We had that case, and during the course of it it was probably the longest hearing that had ever been held before the state Ethics Commission. At that point, Jeff was fully exonerated of all the charges involving the state ethics act.

One of the things that I can say about Jeff is that he has always been the same person that I have known. He has always been available for me and always been there when I needed him. At no point in the time that I've known Jeff has he demonstrated any racial insensitivity.

And I see my time is rapidly winding down and I would just like to say that, in my opinion, Jeff Sessions will enforce and follow the laws of the United States evenhandedly, equally and with justice for all. Jeff Sessions will adhere to the Justice Department motto "qui pro domina justitia sequitir." It means "for the lady justice," Jeff will protect and defend the rights of all people.

Thank you so much for this opportunity.

GRASSLEY: Thank you.

Now we'll hear from Congressman John Lewis.

REP. JOHN LEWIS (D), GEORGIA: Chairman Grassley, Senator Leahy and members of the committee, thank you for inviting me to testify today.

Millions of Americans are encouraged by our country's efforts to create a more inclusive democracy during the last 50 years. But what some of us call a beloved community, a community at peace with itself, we are not a minority, a clear majority of Americans said they want this to be a fair, just and open nation. They are afraid that this country is headed in the wrong direction. They're concerned that some leaders reject decades of progress and want to return to the dark past when the power of law was used to deny the freedoms protected by the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and its amendments. These are the voices I represent today.

We can pretend that the law is blind. We can pretend that it is evenhanded. But if we are honest with ourselves, we know that we are called upon daily by the people we represent to help them deal with unfairness is how the law is written and enforced. Those who are committed to equal justice in our society wonder whether Senator Sessions call for law and order will mean today what it meant in Alabama when I was coming up back then.

The rule of law was used to violate the human and civil rights of the poor, the dispossessed, people of color. I was born in rural Alabama not very far from where Senator Sessions was raised. There was no way to escape or deny the choke-hold of discrimination and racial hate that surrounded us. I saw the signs that said "white waiting, colored waiting." I saw the signs that said "white me, colored men, white women, colored women." I tasted the bitter fruits, the bitter fruits of segregation and racial discrimination.

Segregation was the law of the land to order our society in the Deep South. Any black person who did not cross the street when a white person was walking down the same sidewalk, who did not move to the back of the bus, who drank from a white water fountain, who looked a white person directly in their eyes could be arrested and taken to jail.

The forces of law and order in Alabama were so strong that to take a stand against this injustice we had to be willing to sacrifice our lives for our cause. Often the only way we could demonstrate that a law on the books violated a higher law was by challenging that law, by putting our bodies on the line and showing the world the unholy price we had to pay for dignity and respect.

It took massive, well-organized, nonviolent dissent for the Voting Rights Act to become law. It required criticism of this great nation and its great laws to move toward a greater sense of equality in America. We had to sit in, we had to stand in, we had to march.

And that's why more than 50 years ago a group of unarmed citizens, black and white, gathered on March 7th of 1965 in an orderly peaceful, nonviolent fashion to walk from Selma to Montgomery, Alabama to dramatize to the nation and to the world that we wanted to register to vote, wanted to become participants in a democratic process.

We were beaten, teargassed, left bloody, some of us unconscious, some of us had concussions, some of us almost died on that bridge. But the Congress responded, President Lyndon Johnson responded and the Congress passed a Voting Rights Act and it was signed into law on August 6th, 1965.

We have come a distance, we have made progress, but we are not there yet. There are forces that want to take us back to another place. We don't want to go back. We want to go forward. As the late A. Philip Randolph, who was the dean of the march on Washington in 1963, often said, "Maybe our forefathers and our foremothers all came to this great land in different ships, but we're all in the same boat now."

It doesn't matter how Senator Sessions may smile, how friendly he may be, how he may speak to you, but we need someone who's going to stand up, speak up and speak out for the people that need help, for people who have been discriminated against. And it doesn't matter whether they're black or white, Latino, Asian American or Native American, whether they are straight or gay, Muslim, Christian or Jews. We all live in the same house, the American house.

We need someone as attorney general who's going to look out for all of us and not just for some of us.

I ran out of time. Thank you for giving me a chance to testify.

GRASSLEY: Thank you, Congressman Lewis.

Now I go to Mr. Seroyer.

SEROYER: Chairman, senators of the committee, it's an honor for me to be here and I thank you for your time.

My name is Jesse Seroyer Jr. I've been in law enforcement since 1976 to 2016. I've served in local police departments for 11 years, served in the United States Marshal Service for eight-and-a-half years, served in the attorney general's office for 20 and one-half years.

I first met Jeff Sessions when he was U.S. attorney in the Southern District of Alabama. Jeff prosecuted at that time a klansman by the name of Henry Hays. Jeff prosecuted that person for the abduction and murder of a black teenager.

Following Jeff's selection as attorney general, I had the privilege to serve with him and his administration as its chief investigator. The beginning of Jeff's tenure as attorney general presented Senator Sessions with challenges that included budget crisis and a one-third reduction of staff.

The things that Jeff did when we came to the budget crisis and the reduction of staff, there were several people in the office that had to seek other jobs elsewhere. There was a black investigator in the office that came and had less than a year left before he was eligible to retire. Jeff Sessions allowed that to take place. He didn't have to do that. He did not have to do that at all because of the situation that we were in. Jeff Sessions retained me. He did not have to do that, but he did.

Following the election, you know, we were charged with the responsibilities of a lot of crimes and the expectations of the attorney general was charged with the responsibilities of working various cases which included white-collar crimes, public corruption, voter fraud and criminal investigations.

As I reflect on our work, there was never a time when any of these cases was investigated with any political agenda or motive. The utmost respect and integrity was exercised for all individuals involved. Jeff Sessions's service and decisions as attorney general earned him a reputation and respect among his colleagues and appreciation for his willingness to do what was right.

When Jeff Sessions got to the U.S. Senate, as attorney general, he had argued to uphold the conviction and sentence of Klansman Henry Hays for the murder of Michael Donald. When Jeff Sessions became U.S. senator, he helped me be appointed for the United States Marshal for the Middle District of Alabama. He did not have to do that, but he did.

I've known Jeff Sessions for 20 years. He's a good and decent man. He believes in law and order for all the people.

All the people in Alabama, because of his colleagues and all that surrounded him, the things that he's done for the law enforcement community and the citizens of Alabama is great. It's without any questions as to whether or not he will be fit to serve this country as the United States attorney general.

Now, I did not learn these things from a political press conference or any website where I read about him. I know Jeff Sessions as the man, the man that I know is a decent and honest and respectful man that will put all of his life into public service because he's done that.

When we talk about the criminal justice system, we enforce the laws and we do it because we have a love for the laws. Jeff Sessions loves the people that do the enforcement side of it. He respects that citizens deserve a good and honest person that's going to give all he has to make sure that everyone is treated equally and fairly under the law.

But his decency as a man and his honesty as a man speak for itself. He's the type of individual that I support for the United States attorney general's office because of my reputation and his history with me as a person and the things that I've seen over the years in Jeff Sessions.

It's hard being a public servant. I was in law and been in law enforcement for 40 years. It's a tough job. We don't violate the laws, we don't get out there and do things that would cause ourselves to be brought into the system. And I'm not saying everybody is the same, but I believe that he'll take hold of the justice system, the Justice Department, and he'll be fair, he will be honest and he'll do the same thing for every person, with honesty and respect for all of us.

My time is up. And thank you for listening.

GRASSLEY: Thank you, Mr. Seroyer.

Now Congressman Richmond. Congressman Richmond?

PROTESTERS: (OFF-MIKE)

GRASSLEY: Wait just a minute, Congressman.

RICHMOND: ... ranking member for allowing me to testify.

PROTESTERS: (OFF-MIKE)

RICHMOND: Let me thank the chairman and ranking member for allowing me to testify. The Senate's duty to provide advice and consent to presidential nominees is a fundamental component of American democracy. I know that you do not take this responsibility lightly.

Before I jump into by substantive testimony, I want to address two timely issues. First, I want to express my concerns about being made to testify at the very end of the witness panels. To have a senator, a House member and a living civil rights legend testify at the end of all of this is the equivalent of being made to go to the back of the bus. It is a petty strategy and the record should reflect my consternation at the unprecedented process that brought us here. My record on equality speaks for itself and I don't mind being last. But to have a living legend like John Lewis handled in such a fashion is beyond the pale and the message sent by this process is duly noted by me and the 49 members of the Congressional Black Caucus and the 78 million Americans we represent and the over 17 African Americans that we represent.

Further, on the issue of Senator Sessions's record of prosecuting the Marion Three stemming from a complaint filed by African Americans, I say the following. History is replete with efforts by those in power to legitimize their acts of suppression and intimidation of black voters by recruiting other blacks to assist in bringing trumped- up charges against law-abiding citizens who are engaged in perfectly legitimate voter education and empowerment activities. Those tactics were effectively used against former Congressman Robert Smalls and hundreds if not thousands of black officeholders and landholders in our post-reconstruction era. And they were used several years ago against Mr. and Mrs. Alfred Turner who were discussed by this committee yesterday. The Declaration of Independence set forth the idea of universal equality that rest at the heart of our democracy. But it is the 14th Amendment to our Constitution and its equal protection clause that has helped bring us closer to fulfilling that foundational principle and bringing us closer to a more perfect union.

All Cabinet officials have a responsibility to protect the interests of all of the American people, but there is no office for which the duty to apply the law equally is greater than that of the attorney general. In my capacity as chairman of the Congressional Black Caucus, I urge you to reject Senator Sessions's nomination.

Throughout our nation's history, attorney generals have used the resources of the federal government to vindicate the rights of the most vulnerable in society. After the Civil War, the first attorney general to lead the DOJ, Amos Akerman, prosecuted the KKK for its widespread use of violence aimed at suppressing the black vote. This facilitated massive black voting turnout in 1872. For the first time in our nation's history, former slaves were afforded the opportunity to participate in the democratic process.

Simply put, Senator Sessions has advanced an agenda that will do great harm to African-American citizens and communities. For this reason, the CBC believes Senator Sessions should be disqualified. He has demonstrated a total disregard for the equal application of justice and protection of the law as it applies to African Americans and falls short on so many issues.

Jeff Sessions supports a system of mass incarceration that has disproportionately targeted African-American citizens and devastated African-American communities. He opposed common-sense, bipartisan criminal justice reform. And Jeff Sessions cannot be relied upon to enforce the Voting Rights Act.

In his decades-long career in public life, Senator Sessions has proven himself unfit to serve in the role as attorney general. And I would not have the opportunity to testify today if it were not for men like John Lewis who was beaten within an inch of his life in his pursuit for the right to vote for African Americans. It's a shame that he must sit here and re-litigate this 50 years later.

We sit here as the prodigy of men and women who were bought, sold, enslaved, raped, tortured, beaten and lynched. Black people were bought as chattel and considered three-fifths of a human being. However, we have been able to endure and largely overcome that history thanks in part to brave men and women, both Democrat and Republican, who sat where you sit and cast often-difficult votes for freedom and equality. These senators fought public opinion and even their own party to do what was right. I come before you today asking you to do the same.

Now, you all must face a choice: be courageous or be complicit. If you vote to confirm Senator Sessions, you take ownership of everything he may do or not do in office. He has no track record of fighting for justice for minorities, despite the characterizations that you have heard from others today. He and his supporters have told you that he is a champion for civil rights and equality. Characterization and revisionist histories are not the same things as facts.

He is on the record on numerous issues. I have provided just a few examples today. Let's think about this logically. If he were in fact a champion for civil rights, wouldn't the civil rights community support his nomination instead of speaking with one voice in near- unanimous opposition?

In closing, each and every senator who casts a vote to confirm Senator Sessions will be permanently marked as a co-conspirator in an effort to move this country backwards towards a darker period in our shared history. So I ask you all, where do you stand?

It is clear from Senator Sessions's record where he stands. Will you stand with him and allow history to judge you for doing so? I implore you all to weigh these questions properly as you prepare to cast what will be one of the most consequential votes in your time as a United States senator.

"Res ipsa loquitur" is a legal term which means "the thing speaks for itself." Senator Sessions's record speaks for itself. And I would urge you not to confirm Senator Sessions as attorney general of the United States.

And thank you, Mr. Chairman, for allowing me to go over.

GRASSLEY: Thank you, Congressman Richmond.

Now I call on Mr. Smith.

SMITH: Chairman Grassley, members of the committee, I ask that my written statement be made a part of the record.

GRASSLEY: It will be and that's true of Senator Booker and anybody else that didn't get their entire statement put in the record, it will be in the record, yes.

SMITH: It's an honor for me to be here today to support Senator Sessions to be the next attorney general of the United States of America. He will do an outstanding job.

The American people had an opportunity to witness yesterday through is testimony a brilliant legal mind, a man of the highest character and great integrity. Let me briefly address this legal mind.

As a staffer, your job is to always be more prepared than the member. Senator Sessions made this difficult. I remember one hearing where I was passing Senator Sessions note after note to make sure he was prepared. When he didn't speak on the topic I handed him, I would hand him another note on another topic. Finally, he decided to speak. He did as he did in his testimony yesterday, he crushed it. Senator Sessions was not ignoring my notes, he was systematically thinking about how to put all the notes together in one speech.

A number of my colleagues were amazed by his speech. They asked me afterwards, what did you say to him in those notes? I told them I handed Senator Sessions a blank sheet of paper and told him to make me look good, and that's what he did.

Senator Sessions spent yesterday proving to the American people that he understands the law, will disburse it equally. And he made a bunch of staffers look good.

A lot has been said about Senator Sessions's character. We've seen people who have never met Senator Sessions claim to know him and know his heart. We've seen members of this body and members of the House of Representatives just now, who have worked with Senator Sessions and praised him for his work, and now turn to attack him. This should not be.

The reason we did not see a lot of this yesterday during the hearing is because the members of this committee know Senator Sessions. You know he is a strong conservative, but you also know he's fair and honest. If you disagree with Senator Sessions because of his political views, let's have a conversation about that, but let's do it on the facts, not on 30 years of old innuendos and allegations that have been disproven.

There's something very inconsistent about praising Senator Sessions for aiding African-American communities and working on crack and powder cocaine legislation and then criticizing him because he takes a different political view on another matter, like immigration. Enforcing immigration laws is not out of the mainstream.

On the panel that testified before this one, there were personal attack after personal attack after personal attack. I doubt any one of those individuals attacking Senator Sessions outside of yesterday have spent 30 minutes in the same room with him. That's 30 minutes in the same room, not 30 minutes talking to him. I doubt any of them have spent 30 minutes or 10 minutes talking to Senator Sessions. This process should be about facts, not about political aspirations. Every allegation and witness from 30 years ago has been discredited. Members and the media should move on.

Senator Sessions testified yesterday that he would enforce the laws, whether he agreed with them or not. That's the role of the attorney general, not to embrace every point of view in the shifting political winds. If you come before Jeff Sessions, you will get equal justice and you will respect the outcome, even if you lose.

How do I know this? I know it because I know Jeff Sessions. I'm not testifying as someone who just met him yesterday. I know his family. I've dined at his house. We've eaten Johnny Rockets burgers together. I've traveled across the state of Alabama with Jeff Sessions. I've watched him order a Heath Blizzard at Dairy Queen, quote, "heavy on the Heath." I've watched him prepare for hearings. I've debated him on legislative matters. I've written speeches for him. I've made speeches on his behalf. I've been in every political situation with him.

Senator Sessions is unquestionably qualified for the job for which he has been nominated. He's a good Christian man and a good family man. He is a man who has dedicated his life to public service. And in the course of that, he has actually fought for the disenfranchised. He fought for sentencing reform, and not only did he fight for it, he accomplished it. He fought for civil rights. He prosecuted members of the Ku Klux Klan. And, most importantly, he has fought for the liberty of all Americans, regardless of the color of their skin or their personal beliefs. This is the way it should be.

After 20 years of knowing Senator Sessions, I have not seen the slightest evidence of racism because it does not exist. I know a racist when I see one and I've seen more than one. But Jeff Sessions is not one.

Senator Sessions has served with distinction throughout his career as a United States attorney, as attorney general for Alabama and as a member of this body. The legal profession is better for his service. This body is better for his service. And this country at the end of his term will be better for his service.

In every season, Jeff Sessions has been measured, courteous and kind. He has treated me and everyone respectfully and fairly, not showing favoritism at any point. This is the account of an attorney general that our nation needs.

[13:55:04]

I applaud his selection. I look forward to his swift confirmation.

Thank you, and war eagle (ph).

GRASSLEY: The record will stay open until Tuesday. And I thank all of you for your testimony. And the hearing is adjourned.

[WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Very important testimony just now before the Senate Judiciary Committee, testimony involving Senator Jeff Sessions, who has been nominated to become the next attorney general of the United States. You heard three of his supporters, men who know him well, worked with him in the African-American community, testifying how great a man he is. But we also heard from Senator Cory Booker, the Democratic Senator in New Jersey, who, for the first time in American history, a sitting U.S. Senator, testified against another U.S. Senator who is seeking a cabinet position. John Lewis -- we also heard from John Lewis, the civil rights icon. Spoke beautifully about the civil rights movement. I didn't specifically hear him say, "Don't vote to confirm Senator Sessions." We also heard from Senator Richmond, the congressman from Louisiana, the new chairman of the Congressional Black Caucus, who did oppose the nomination.

Dana, it's going to be, presumably, a relatively close vote although the Republicans have the majority.

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: The Republicans do have the majority. And of course, first, talking about the committee vote, which has to come first, should come first, there are rules that allow them to circumvent that, if need be. It looks like he's probably going to be OK. They have only like the razorist-thin of a majority there. But the fact that he, Jeff Sessions, has support from the broad spectrum of his own party, from Susan Collins, who introduced him yesterday to, obviously, his conservative brethren in the Republican caucus, it will probably be OK. I think the question is, at this point, how many Democrats, who know Jeff Sessions and have worked with Jeff Sessions, and maybe, more importantly, sort of view the role of the president and the idea that the president can choose the person he wants for these positions, just like many Republicans did for President Obama, whether they will support him.

But at the end of the day, taking it back, just to put sort of put a button on an extraordinary moment that we did just see in a committee hearing room, for Cory Booker, a sitting Senator, somebody who - he hasn't sat in the Senate very long but, even in the short time he's been there, he has experience with Jeff Sessions on civil rights issues, not anything more than symbolic, but they have talked and worked together on this, and still he felt the need to come out publicly and say that he does not think that Jeff Sessions is the right person to be the top law enforcement official, effectively, of this administration.

BLITZER: It was a fascinating moment, indeed.

All right, everybody, stand by.

We have a lot more coming up. Special coverage. President-elect Trump holds his first full-fledged news conference. You will hear what he had to say about Russian President Vladimir Putin and the Russia cyberattack. That, and much more, coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)