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The Messy Truth with Van Jones

Aired January 25, 2017 - 21:00   ET


[21:00:00] VAN JONES, CNN HOST: I'm Van Jones. Welcome to "The Messy Truth".

Here we are. We are still inside the very first week of something. I don't know what it is. It's either week one of the Trump presidency or it's week one of the anti-Trump resistance. Either way, the truth has never been messier than it's been these past six days.

So tonight, we're going to try to attempt to answer a very serious and very sober question. What in the holy heck is going on in America right now? I mean, it is nuts. It does not even feel like America.

First of all, we've got a boastful, strong man who's playing fast and loose with the facts. We've got media sources that almost have to pick between either being pro-opposition or pro-government. We've got massive demonstrations and now counterdemonstrations flooding the streets in America. It actually feels more like the politics of a developing country, not the most advanced nation on earth. So what in the world is going on?

Well tonight, we're going to try to figure it out. And here's how I see it, first of all, you've got try to understand your new president. Not just agree with them or disagree with them, but really try to understand them.

Now here's my take. In Trump world, we are seeing a big clash now between methodology and math. OK. To his detractors, Trump just sounds crazy. He sounds like, you know, he's like gone off the rails. Like, you know, "My inauguration crowd was massive, it was the biggest ever. And the inauguration was viewed by more people than ever. And if you take away the millions of invisible undocumented immigrants, I even won the popular vote."

Now, without getting into all of that, just trust me, the math actually obliterates all of these whoopers. So why does he keep saying stuff like this? It's because the Trump mythology requires him to say it.

Now, I'm not just talking about his braggadocious brand, it's much, much deeper than that. If you want to understand your president, consider there may actually be a method to all of this madness. Remember, Trump does not see himself as a normal politician and he never had the strategy of a normal politician. A normal politician who wants to prove himself would just point to the constitution, the Electoral College and be done with it.

But notice something. Trump almost never even mentions the constitution. Instead he talks about polls, and ratings, and crowd sizes, polls, ratings, and crowd sizes. Why? Because Trump sees himself as the leader of a mass movement, first and foremost, and movements are measured by how many people you are moving. OK. Trump sees himself as a populist which means he needs to be popular.

How popular are you when you can't even win the popular vote? OK. So when you knock his vote totals, you are striking at the very source of this man's legitimacy. Trump needs to believe that he has the masses with him.

So, given his mythology and his strategy, which is to position himself as the populist leader, it's actually rational in his mind for him to talk about the numbers. Even if he has to make up some of them. It's not just psychopathy, it's strategy. Keep that in mind with this president.

Now, what about the anti-Trump resistance. They are also misunderstood. Those big marches, sore losers, get over it, Trump won. He's going to do what he wants to do. Au contraire, you might want to rethink that.

I remember 2009 when the Democrats had the White House, and the Senate, and the House and President Obama was the most popular human being on earth. And we thought that we were invincible. And then, the Tea Party showed up. And they were teeny, tiny, with little bitty protests, just a couple hundred people and we laughed them off. Twenty-four months later, that little nothing movement had grown and grown and it took over the House of Representatives, and they still have the House. Now by comparison, these women's marches were massive. So this really could be the start of something big. Do not underestimate the anti-Trump resistance.

But before I move on, I got to say this, before I praise them too much, it is fair to ask where was all of this progressive passion and enthusiasm when it might have mattered? Like during the election. Like, that's the part that drives me nuts. I am sure most of these marchers also voted. But how many of them actually volunteered? Got involved? Did the phone banking? Went to swing states? Raised money?

[21:05:03] You know, you can be mad at Trump all you want but here's the messy truth. Deep down, most Democrats know they totally underestimated Trump, totally, and they didn't do everything they could have done to beat him. So let that be a lesson to everybody on both sides. Democracy requires hard work, every day, before, during, and after an election. Whichever side forgets that in this environment is going to regret it.

Now, that said, I want to introduce you guys to somebody who cares about all of these issues, voting rights, women's rights, democracy, someone who does fight for her views every single day, she is an Oscar winner, an Emmy winner, a Grammy winner, a Tony Award winner, all kind of winner, winner, you want to win, she is the winner, the real winner, Whoopi Goldberg. Bring her to the stage. Bring her to the stage.


JONES: Hello. You're doing good?

GOLDBERG: Yeah. I wanted to point something out to you. You asked where were all these people in the march. I want to also tell you, it wasn't just liberal women marching. It was Trump voters marching, female Trump voters because a lot of the women that I talked to said listen, you know, I voted for him for this reason, but I wasn't aware he was going to sweep everything out, including me. So I'm here because I feel like I need to let him know this is not OK.

So when you say that, just know -- because I saw a tweet from some Congress guy who said that -- you know who I'm talking about? The guy who said, "Oh, it's just liberal -- a bunch of liberal" --

JONES: Yeah.

GOLDBERG: -- "women marching, why should I pay for your birth control?" Well, you know, you're the kind of person that we're marching against because you should know that birth control isn't just birth control. Birth control does a lot of things for women's bodies. So if you're not going to do your homework, don't make statements like that because you sound dumb.

JONES: Yeah.

GOLDBERG: So that's what I wanted to tell you. Yeah.

JONES: Whoppi Goldberg is here. Give her a round of applause. I love it.

GOLDBERG: Sorry about that.

JONES: You know, the march was amazing. We want to the get to the march. We've got people here who got different opinions and you do about the march.


JONES: I want to get them in.


JONES: But I do want to get your opinion about this most recent thing around all this voting stuff. You got a guy who is the president of the United States. It used to be the president back in the '60s was sending investigations into the red states because you had real actual identifiable people who could not vote. Now you've got somebody sending investigations into the blue states where invisible made up people did vote. What -- how does it land with you? This whole idea that voting rights have now been turned upside down and turned into a joke?

GOLDBERG: He -- when I'm trying to think of this young lady's name who had the -- who was with the -- one of the parties that lost.

JONES: The Green Party candidate.

GOLDBERG: Green Party, yeah.

JONES: Yes, go ahead.

GOLDBERG: Remember she wanted to do --

JONES: Jill Stein.

GOLDBERG: Jill stein wanted to do a recount, she wanted to look. His people said, "Listen, there's -- there was no voter fraud. We went through all of this. We looked at this. And there's nothing here."

JONES: So you're talking about --

GOLDBERG: I'm thinking, OK. OK. You won. Now here you come, and suddenly now there's millions -- it's like millions of voter fraud people.


GOLDBERG: Where were they the last time people looked for them?

JONES: That's funny.

GOLDBERG: I mean, it just -- look --

JONES: I'm going to bring somebody here who wants to argue with you.

GOLDBERG: I don't want to argue. And I've been talking all day. I'm not going to argue, I'll talk, but I'm not going to argue with you.

JONES: That's good. But --


JONES: Here's the deal, you're talking about when Jill Stein went into court and said there was something wrong with the election.


JONES: Donald Trump at that point said nothing wrong with the election.

GOLDBERG: These people said there's nothing wrong.

JONES: Now he's saying everything was wrong with the election.


JONES: So that's the kind of stuff we need to talk about. But we have a student here named Amanda who did not go to the march. And she is actually a woman.

Amanda, what do you have to say about this?

AMANDA DELEKTA, TRUMP VOTER, STUDENT AT UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN: Yeah, absolutely. I want to start by saying I think that the march was a really powerful opportunity. I think it is so inspiring for the political climate of our country to see millions of women and humans turn out, nationally, to march on a multitude of issues that they're so passionate about.


DELEKTA: However, I do think that the march became problematic when A, they were quick to exclude and not to sponsor a group that did not share the same ideology as them. This was supposed to be an inclusive event. And as soon as the main body of protesters disagreed with a sect of the protest, they were excluded for being sponsored by the march. And I don't necessarily --

JONES: Was that a mistake, Whoopi --

GOLDBERG: Yeah, it was a mistake. It was absolutely a mistake. Because --

[21:10:00] JONES: Because it was like a litmus test for the kind of woman that could come.

GOLDBERG: Well, no. I think in part, part of the problem and I only found this out yesterday because Christella (ph) was on our show. And we asked her about this because she's very close with the people who organized. They never -- the people who organized this never specifically said this is just -- this is for you. This is for you. That, you know, once you get too many people involved, everybody says well you can't come and you can't come. But from what I understand, and it wasn't the case in New York, because everybody marched in New York. But what I was told by her is that that was not true of the organizers. And yes it was a mistake because this was about women marching.

DELEKTA: Exactly.

JONES: What else do you think about the march? As a Trump voter, what else do you think about the march?

DELEKTA: Absolutely. I thought some of the rhetoric turned hateful very quickly. When you have an icon such as Madonna talking about bombing the White House and thinking about bombing the White House, you know, what kind of consequence does that create? What if someone else would have said that?

GOLDBERG: Well someone else did. Someone else said it about Obama. Ted Nugent. So, you know, it's bad on both sides. That kind of rhetoric is horrible.

DELEKTA: Right, that's not a powerful rhetoric to create in such a positive --

GOLDBERG: Yeah, it's horrible. DELEKTA: -- what should have been a positive movement.


DELEKTA: It should have stayed positive.

GOLDBERG: Yeah, I agree.

DELEKTA: I think that goes off into a negative avenue.


JONES: So we're trying to understand each other a little bit better. I do remember that we spent a lot of time saying that Trump's vile language and his profane language, you know, the chidren are watching, that was one of the best ads, the children are watching. Could the children have watched this march? Because there was some vile -- can't you see why people feel like it's hypocritical?

GOLDBERG: I'm not -- listen, I'm not arguing against what she's saying. I'm saying this was wrong. I'm not saying hey, you know, when you do that as Ted Nugent found, as Madonna will find, the FBI will knock on your door. They will knock on your door and say, "Excuse me, we want to talk to you because that rhetoric, it doesn't work." It's just -- it's not --

JONES: Common ground there.

GOLDBERG: And also, if you can't -- look, we've had presidents before that I've disagreed with very strongly but we've been able to will have these discussions. Something about how this began put everybody on edge. You know, whether you believe there should be a wall, whether you're mad at immigrants, whatever it is. There was a civility that disappeared and just sort of -- I just feel like to be able to say to you, yeah, you're right about that. You know, it doesn't require me to go, "Hey, what are you talking about?" You know, it means -- I'll say, "Yeah, you're right. I can see that." Because if I can have the dialogue, then we -- we might be able to come to some agreement.

It becomes an issue when people will not -- when they're not listening because they're ready to get their part in. I want to hear what she has to say. Because I've talked to a lot of women particularly who have -- who voted for Trump who, you know, a lot of folks said, "Let's see what he does." You said that. Let's see what he does. Say OK. But I think folks saw and said, "OK, wait a minute. Just a second." So yeah.

JONES: Very good. Well, we have a reverend here who actually was at the march and feels differently about it. Why don't we get you in here?

REV. AMY BUTLER, ATTENDED WOMEN'S MARCH: Sure. I'm the pastor of the Riverside Church where Martin Luther King preached many sermons. So as a Christian minister in that tradition, I felt like it was important for me to show up in Washington at the march to be with our nation in this moment when the soul of our nation seems to be in a crisis. And with so many who feel marginalized and oppressed. As a woman and a mother of young adults, it was critically important for me to be there with my kids. To get them to experience the democratic process where we show up with differing opinions, but to raise our voices because we care about the future of America. That's why I went.

JONES: You know, one of the things that I was curious about. It was a woman's march, it was a big women's march, how do we deal with the fact that 42 percent of the women who voted though voted for Donald Trump and 53 percent of the white women who voted, voted for Donald Trump against Hillary Clinton. What kind of a woman's movement is it when you have those kind of numbers?

GOLDBERG: Well, I don't think women were voting for women. They were voting for candidates. And that should be clear to people. You know, people always -- you know, it's what people said, you know, "Oh, you're black, you voted for Barack Obama." Don't make that assumption. These women voted their beliefs. And if Hillary had shared those beliefs, maybe they would have voted for Hillary. So I think you have to, you know, first you have to start up here with the bar --

JONES: Right.

GOLDBERG: -- when it comes to women. Women vote the same way guys vote. They vote what their issue is. So, I think that, you know, it worked the way it was supposed to work. What I wish --


GOLDBERG: -- was that it wasn't so muddy.


GOLDBERG: I wish Russia had never come up, you know.

JONES: For instance.

GOLDBERG: Because, you know, it's too much, too much.

[21:15:01] JONES: Too much, too much.

GOLDBERG: You know, too many things.

JONES: Well we -- luckily, we got a few more segments we're going to get into it. And also you're going to be surprise when we get back, there is one issue -- I'm -- I feel weird saying this. There is one issue that Donald Trump has raised and I'm glad that he raised it. I think Democrats might want to take notes when we get back.


JONES: Welcome back to "The Messy Truth". I'm Van Jones. I'm here with my guest, Whoppi Goldberg. We're going to get some more of your questions. But first, I want your reaction to this moment from the inauguration that is still rolling around in my brain from the new president.

GOLDBERG: Well, all right.


DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The crime and the gangs and the drugs that have stolen too many lives and robbed our country of so much unrealized potential. This American carnage stops right here and stops right now.


[21:20:03] JONES: Now, if you thought those were just, you know, words or just some rhetoric, we might be actually be seeing some action soon.

The new president tweeted this last night. Put it up. "If Chicago doesn't fix this horrible carnage," that word again, carnage going on, "228 shootings in 2017 with 42 killings up 24 percent from 2016, I will send in the Feds."

Now look, here's the messy truth, there is a lot of violence.


JONES: There are a lot of --

GOLDBERG: All over the country.

JONES: There are a lot of funerals. And I don't think that when you look back at the Obama presidency that there was that urgency about the inner city violence. Isn't this a good thing, and aren't you happy that Trump is saying he's going to do something?

GOLDBERG: You know what, if he really wanted to do something, we'd have a lot more discussions about what -- how we deal with this crime with the gun issue. See, because that's -- that's to me -- if you want -- if you start the conversation with, "Hey, Rahm, if see you" --

JONES: But --

GOLDBERG: Wait, wait. "I see you having some issues there. We want to help. What can we do?"

JONES: Well, he talked to Rahm, and he's starting those conversations.

GOLDBERG: Yes, but he's starting the conversation by saying, I'm going to put marshal law in your state. That's not the way you start a conversation with people. Listen, there is bad crime everywhere. But, at some point we're going to have to discuss gun violence and what to do because -- listen --

JONES: Hold on.

GOLDBERG: Go ahead. JONES: I want us to open our mind a little bit. This guy is the president of the United States. He wants to put the issue on the table. Couldn't Trump wind up being the savior for black folk?

GOLDBERG: I don't know that black folk need a savior. I'm sorry, I mean, wasn't aware. But -- and also, you know, Obama -- let's talk a little bit about Obama.


GOLDBERG: OK. So here the guy gets in. OK, he gets in. Day two, the man -- what's his name? You know --

JONES: McConnell.

GOLDBERG: Mitch McConnell said we're not going to help him. We're not doing anything.

JONES: Nothing.

GOLDBERG: Nothing. So now here he is -- then come the posters, you know, from the kids that work at the White House, maybe people working in different -- do you remember this? Different offices. They had one big poster had all the presidents. And the last one was Obama. With big red lips and big eyes looking like some kind of character.

JONES: So that was bad.

GOLDBERG: OK. It continued. But then it continued.

JONES: Are you saying that we should do the same thing?

GOLDBERG: No, I'm not. I'm saying, let's be realistic. If you wanted Obama to do something, he did what he could do as the president of everybody. Because if he had done just stuff for black people, people would have been out of their minds.

JONES: You ain't lying on that.

GOLDBERG: OK. OK. So the guy -- he's not the issue now. I don't mind Donald Trump wanting to go in and help. I do mind --


GOLDBERG: -- that when you start this conversation by saying we're bringing in the Feds, to me, that's an issue.

JONES: OK. That could be a negative but --


JONES: -- you said yourself, if the brother had done it, they would say, "Oh, you can't do that, that's terrible." Well now you got Trump, he is trying to do something. Should we now work with him?

GOLDBERG: I don't know if Rahm Emanuel or whoever the governor is, I don't know if they're feeling like he really wants to come in or whether he's grand standing.

JONES: Trust deficit there.

GOLDBERG: So there's a trust issue. So I don't know. You know, anything that will help, I'm in for it.

JONES: And trust is for a good reason. I guess my frustration is, and you know this, you go to our communities and all too often you've got the vigils. You've got the teddy bears. You've got the candles because you have yet another young brother or young sister whose been killed. And then we go say gun control and they go say pull your pants up as if black people pull their pants up, jobs will fall out of the sky. And nothing gets done.

GOLDBERG: Well, if we started in the right place and say, "Listen, I understand you have issues in the community." There are huge issues. Yeah, there are no jobs. And let's talk about the white communities --


GOLDBERG: -- where pills and drugs are the issues.

JONES: We're going to get to that.

GOLDBERG: We all got issues. So if somebody said, "Listen, come to a summit and tell me what you're seeing in your community" --


GOLDBERG: -- I would love that because everybody could have the conversation.

JONES: Would you go -- if Trump had that summit and invited Whoppi Goldberg, would you go?

GOLDBERG: You know what, it would take a little while for me because I've see --

JONES: It's the messy truth.

GOLDBERG: I tell you why -- well I tell you why because I felt that when he came on to our show years ago, spouting the lie that turned out to be, you know, he was born in another country and we don't know who he's connected to. That went on for eight years.

JONES: Terrible. Yeah.

GOLDBERG: And never has he said, "You know what, I'm sorry. I shouldn't have done that."

[21:25:00] JONES: Yeah. So listen --

GOLDBERG: So maybe if he begged.

JONES: If he begged. He'll get you. He wants to get you. Well listen, I want to get to somebody else in this conversation, an important voice. You know, this is not abstract, this is real life stuff. We have people who are really going through things in the community and we have a hero here whose husband lost his life -- a law enforcement officer. I want Leslyn to be able to ask you a question.

GOLDBERG: Hey, Leslyn.



STEWART: My husband was a law enforcement officer that was shot and killed in the line of duty. As we've seen over the past few years, policing -- it's tough in America.


STEWART: Along with black community of relations. It's challenging on both sides. Lives are lost on both sides. How can we put the politics aside and really focus on positive solutions? I mean, with the understanding that, you know, both sides are at stake.

GOLDBERG: There was a police captain, I think he's out of Texas who talked about the fact that his son had been taken by violence. That I think another family member had taken by violence -- and how moved he was by what had happened because he understood it.

For me, I think people need to get into the community and talk to the folks and say listen, none of us want this. Nobody wants to shoot anybody. But when something happens, we have to come to you, you have to help us. But if no one says listen, yeah, there are nervous officers out there and bad things do happen, but we have to admit that they've happened. We can't sweep it under the rug and say it never happened. We have to make everybody honest.

And both sides, I think, have to say, listen, I don't have my husband, you don't have your son. We have a connection here. Let's try to make it something that will work.

JONES: Yeah.

GOLDBERG: I think if honesty in both departments, in our community and in the police department were clearer, empathy, I guess --

JONES: Yeah.

GOLDBERG: -- it would be much easier for people to say, oh, you're not just shooting me because you don't like me. You made a mistake, you were scared. I think people would understand that. If you're in the dark, you know, and somebody comes through a door, I don't know how I would respond, but you don't to want give me a handgun.

JONES: Well, first of all --

GOLDBERG: You know what I mean? You don't want that.

JONES: Well first of all, let's give her a round of applause. Thank you so much. Thank you so much.

And this is the kind of conversation I think America needs to have. We can be real and we can be honest and we can get messy. And another thing that the President talked about in that whole carnage comment was this whole piece around drugs. And I want to bring my friend Joel into the conversation. Also -- here's your microphone. Joel also lost a loved one to opioids.

JOEL CAMPAGNOLA, SON DIED OF A DRUG OVERDOSE IN 2015: My son Nicholas died from what's called a kill bag. He thought that he was purchasing heroin and it turned out to be pure Fentanyl. Fentanyl is a drug that's 60 times more stronger than heroin.


CAMPAGNOLA: These dealers are making these kill bags and they're selling them. And what it does, and it hopes it boosts their sales. It skyrockets. People come running. That's the mindset of an addict, if someone dies, they have the good stuff. Let's go there and get it. OK.

So one of the reasons why I voted for Donald Trump is because he's made a promise that he is going to strengthen these borders and protect them and keep from drugs -- keep the drugs from coming in, you know. What are we going to do to keep them to the fire to make him stay good on that promise?

JONES: And I know addition something that you've seen close and personal, do you have any words of comfort for Joel before you get down to the policy questions given how many people have suffered with addiction? How many people are dying like a sundae?

GOLDBERG: You know, the opioids, the pills, all of this stuff has become so prevalent, it's so easy to get. And, you know, this is going to sound crazy, but I'm not so worried about what's coming in from Mexico. I'm worried about what's here. And what comes into our homes via a script from a doctor or what kids are doing, you know, they're mixing and crushing up the pills and then mixing it with cough syrup or making something. I mean it's insane.

So I don't know what to -- what I can tell you about the border because I don't know that that's the issue. But I will tell you this, every time you talk about your son and tell that story, somebody's life is getting saved. Please believe me when I tell you that. Please, please, I know from experience.

[21: 30:06] CAMPAGNOLA: Shouldn't we be doing something too though to prosecute the drug dealers a little harder and make examples out of them when we do catch them, when they are -- they're killing our children.

GOLDBERG: Yeah, they're killing our children, but so is alcohol. You know, we've put -- people have five or six times where they, you know, they've got these driving records and we don't do -- we have to be clearer, I think.

JONES: Let me follow-up on that really quickly, though.

GOLDBERG: Yes, yes.

JONES: You probably don't think that the border strengthening and that kind of stuff, the crackdown is going to make a big difference. But what would make a difference? What would get people more off drugs in the little time we have left?

GOLDBERG: Be careful about -- well, you know, these crazy commercials that say watch what's going on in your --

JONES: In your medicine cabinet.

GOLDBERG: -- in your medicine cabinet. I'm telling you that is the best thing you can do.

JONES: Yeah, right.

GOLDBERG: Take what's in there and put it away.

JONES: Listen to Whoopi Goldberg. Now, listen, I want you to stick around.


JONES: When we get back, now, Whoopi, you mentioned the stuff going on in white communities, when we get back I went on a road trip to West Virginia where some coal miners taught me some surprising political truth. We're going to talk about it when we get back.


JONES: So many pundits have said if she hadn't offended those coal miners they would have voted for her. They don't know your heart. They didn't know that there was something underneath that that you also were concerned about.

BO COPLEY, WEST VIRGINIA MINER: Everyone always thinks that we're one topic people, you know.

JONES: Right.

B. COPLEY: Yeah. And we're not.



[21:35:59] JONES: We are back with Whoopi Goldberg, more with her in a moment. But first, here is the messy truth that I discovered in West Virginia's coal country. Coal miners, who, for generations were reliable Democratic Party voters, they actually turned out and droves for Donald Trump on Election Day. And some of those miners were caricatured as one issue voters. They actually had a lot more on their minds. Take a look.


JONES: West Virginia is coal country and it has been for generations. But, coal production has been on a steady decline here since the early 1990s. And in the last six years, it's taken a complete nosedive. That has led to a loss of jobs and for many, a loss of hope. Enter, Donald Trump.

TRUMP: And for those miners, get ready because you're going to be working your asses off, all right? Thank you, everybody. Thank you.

JONES: Well, here we are. We are in the heart of coal country, also the heart of the collapse of coal. President Trump made a lot of promises to the coal miners. He said he's going to give them a big bright tomorrow. We're here in Mingo County, West Virginia to see what does that mean to the folks who live here.

I meet up with a group that definitely knows coal. Bo Copley has been laid off since 2015. He's sort of a coal mining celebrity for this exchange with Hillary Clinton during the campaign.

B. COPLEY: I just want to know how you can say you're going to put a lot of coal miners out of jobs and then come in here and tell us how you're going to be our friend.

JONES: And Allen Lardieri, he's got a job in the mines.

My first question is simply this, what does Trump have to do to deliver, to satisfy folks?

ALLEN LARDIERI, WEST VIRGINIA MINER: My whole reasoning for voting for Trump was not because of policies but the presence of Trump. He got a political gene pool that it's entirely inbred. What I mean by that is you had these career politicians, the same individuals that's populate the Capitol Hill for so long they're so disconnected from their base. Trump being such an outsider will make people start to think and realize hopefully that, oh, wait, we could possibly lose our jobs if we don't become more representative.

JONES: You know you got famous because of the challenge you laid out to Hillary Clinton. If Hillary Clinton had a different position on coal mining, would you have voted for her?

B. COPLEY: No, sir.

JONES: Why not?

B. COPLEY: On the very fact alone of pro-life.

JONES: So many pundits have said if she hadn't offended those coal miners they would have voted for her. They don't know your heart. They didn't know that there was something underneath that that you also were concerned about.

B. COPLEY: Everyone always thinks that we're one topic people, you know.

LARDIERI: Like regional, yeah.

B. COPLEY: Yeah. And we're not.

JONES: You guys are Christians and very proud of it. As a Christian couple how can you support a Donald Trump when you know the fear he strikes into the hearts of American-Muslim children, American-Latino children? How do you round that circle?

B. COPLEY: Sorry. We -- it hits kind of close to home to her. Some of her family won't speak to me right now because of my support for Donald Trump. And --

LAUREN COPLEY, BO COPLEY'S WIFE: We have a Muslim-American family.

B. COPLEY: Her sister is married to a Jordanian man. And, you know, they never expressed their fears to us beforehand as far as -- but then --

L. COPLEY: I wouldn't want anybody to think just because someone's in office that -- it's not a dictatorship. This is still America. It is still awesome. It's a country of immigrants. You can't say we're not going to let anybody in but it has to be done the right responsible way. But, I would like to ask Donald Trump, you know, what are you going to say to those people who are scared?

JONES: My last question is this, hope is a fragile thing.

LARDIERI: Sure is.

JONES: And it's hard to get. And when it goes it's devastating. And you got people here hanging by a thread. Their jobs are gone. Their pensions are gone. Their healthcare isn't there. They're trying to push that opioid away. They see a man who's supposed to be formed. Tell the President what -- speak for them to this president.

[21:40:12] LARDIERI: Mr. President, you're the most unconventional candidate that has ever took this office. A lot of things had happened, a lot of mechanisms in place to put you in there. In your own words, if you do not deliver, you're fired.


JONES: Hey, give a round of applause for that. Good people.

GOLDBERG: Always good people.

JONES: Yeah, good people. And don't agree with them politically, but they got some of the same problems, Whoopi, that we have in the hood. Jobs, not there. Drugs --


JONES: -- there. Healthcare, fragile. Same in the hood. Why do poor white folk and poor black folk wind up fighting when we should be standing together?

GOLDBERG: Because someone always puts a label on it.


GOLDBERG: So it's not us, they're doing it. And once you start pointing with them, or it's them, or it's that neighborhood, or that neighborhood, you know, poor people are poor people.


GOLDBERG: And they're all just trying to do their best, trying to raise their kids, trying to do all the things that everybody wants to do. And, you know, the miners have a particularly tough issue because, you know, on one hand the EPA says you have to treat these people like people. You can't treat them like chattel. You've got to make sure they can breathe. You got to make sure the air is clean. And if you don't do that, we're going to have an issue. I mean, their company says, well look, that's going to cost us too much money so we're going to take our business elsewhere.

JONES: Yeah.

GOLDBERG: I don't understand why we can't figure out how to make it work on both ends.

JONES: And look, I think the common pain should lead to common purpose.


JONES: And both political parties, the Democrats who let down the urban poor, the Republicans who let down the rural poor, both parties should be better.


JONES: And we got to do better together. Listen, Whoopi Goldberg, thank you for being here.

GOLDBERG: Thank you.

JONES: It means so much to have you here. A legend. A legend. A legend.

GOLDBERG: In my own mind.

JONES: The winner. That the President --


Listen, when we get back, I got to say, I'm kind of confused. I think you're scared. I'm scared about just the first six days of the Donald Trump presidency. So I'm going to bring in the best Trump translator that I know, Jeffrey Lord. We disagree a lot. And I guarantee we're going to fight tonight. But you're going to learn something, I guarantee you. He will be with us when we get back. Jeffrey Lord, another legend.


[21:47:04] JONES: Welcome back to "The Messy Truth". I'm Van Jones.

Now, it's been 24 hours since President Trump signed an executive order that will do lasting, permanent damage to mother earth, OK. The Keystone XL Pipeline, the Dakota Access Pipeline, those are two pro- pollution projects that our great grandchildren are going to be regretting if they go through. And it's all a part of Trump's drill and burn, drill and spill agenda. And it's terrible. It's terrible.

But are we talking about it? Are we getting into all the climate science about it, the clean water policy ramifications? Nope. No, we're not. Why? Because the entire country has been consumed with this whole fake voter fraud nonsense. So I'm thinking, you know, maybe there's a method to Trump's madness for real.

Earlier, I laid out one explanation for why he's pushing all these crazy theories, but there's another idea that goes hand in hand with that one. Maybe he's just saying all this crazy stuff to distract us from what he's really doing. Now, that would be a chilling prospect. That would be a chilling prospect.

Now here's another thing you want to consider. Just think about this, right now, today, in America, you know that number one book being sold is? "1984" by George Orwell.

I want to read you a short passage that stands out for me. It says, "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and your ears. It was their final, most essential command." Now let me tell you this, you can believe your eyes and you can believe your ears, data is data, facts are facts, there are no alternative facts, OK. Let's not go down the Orwellian road. And I hope that's not where Trump is trying to lead us. But to find out for sure, let's bring in the best Trumpologist I know on earth, the great Jeffrey Lord. Get him up on the stage. My nemesis.

JEFFREY LORD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: How are you my friend? Good to see you.

JONES: Good to see you. Grab a seat.

LORD: Thank you.

JONES: You know, Jeff and I are like the Ernie and Bert of American politics. But --

LORD: How's your week been, Van?

JONES: For you it's been great, for me it's been terrible. Thanks for asking.

But so, help us understand. Is this some kind of Orwellian plot to just distract us from stuff or do you think Trump actually believes all this stuff he's saying? LORD: Oh, what stuff that's he's saying --

JONES: You know, about the, boy, that five million people, half of the number of undocumented people in America all snuck into voting booths and nobody knows. I can't believe --

LORD: This is how he always starts, right? OK, here we go.


[21:49:54] LORD: Look, I don't know what the number is. And talking to people who are very familiar with this, they say that's the problem that this is in fact happening and has happened. The numbers, we don't know about. The Heritage Foundation, for example, has records, just a sample, 700 criminal cases, they supplied the names, the convictions, what -- who the people were, et cetera, on their site.

JONES: Yeah.

LORD: And you can find this kind of thing in lots of places. So, all I'm saying --

JONES: Isn't that a long way though from 700 to three million, five million?

LORD: Well, but there are -- there was a Congressional race in California, for example, in 1996 where the candidate won by 1,000 votes. And a House committee investigated the election later and found out that 664 of them have been cast by illegal immigrants.

JONES: Right.

LORD: So, in other words, I mean, I don't understand the hesitation with dealing with the problem. Find out for heaven's sake. Because when people who are non-citizens of this country, no matter who they are, are voting, they're canceling out the votes of everyone in this room.

JONES: So, help me understand this. Why is he canceling out his own election? I mean, honestly, the guy won, why are we having this conversation?

LORD: Well we're having lots of conversations, Van. I think --

JONES: No. This --

LORD: Van, Van, I think that one of the things that happens when you change presidents who are -- and this happens, by the way, here goes my historical reference --

JONES: Are you getting to Reagan?

LORD: Well, I'll get there, I'll get there. Well, sure, I mention this around, Ronald Reagan was the complete opposite of Jimmy Carter, Henry Jackson was a complete opposite of John Quincy Adams, Barack Obama was the complete opposite of George W. Bush. The American people, quite often enough, decide after electing this person they want to go all the way over here and elect this person to succeed him. And he is, I think you would agree, the direct opposite of President Obama.

JONES: He is. Now, one thing that people don't know about me and you is as much as we fight on T.V. we actually are friends.

LORD: We are.

JONES: And one of the things that we both care an awful lot about is healthcare.

LORD: Yeah.

JONES: Your mom is going through a lot when it comes to healthcare, so is my mom. So it's something be both take very, very seriously. And there's a family here that I also want you to hear from. And oh, we have the entire family here. So, listen.


JONES: This is a family that has actually gone through some of the scariest stuff you can go through when it comes to cancer, and actually deal with preexisting conditions. This is the fact of their lives.

LORD: Right.

JONES: Look in front of you (ph).


LORD: Hi, Kel.

DUNSTAN: She is a two-time cancer survivor.

LORD: Wow.

DUNSTAN: At age seven she was diagnosed with stage four cancer. It was covered under our insurance. She graduated from college at age 22. The Affordable Care Act allowed her to continue on our healthcare plan until age 26 if need be. And that was a God send because five months after graduation she was diagnosed with her second cancer. So she was covered under our plan because she was able to stay on our plan.

LORD: Right.

DUNSTAN: Now, we understand that there's issues with the ACA, we're not saying it's perfect but it has clearly helped millions of people across the country including us. I guess my question is why is the GOP in such a rush to repeal the ACA without having a specific plan to replace it? And then maybe secondly, there are certainly good parts of the Affordable Care Act, preexisting condition clause --

LORD: Certainly.

DUNSTAN: -- the age 26 clause, no limits on lifetime caps, what's the hurry and why can't some of those things be kept in whatever they become?

LORD: I think some of those things will be kept, candidly. And listening to him -- and listening to President Trump himself has mentioned this. I do feel that there are a lot of people out there who are upset with the act that, I mean, I, in the course of writing about this since its inception come across people. I talked to one woman, for example, who believes that the Affordable Care Act was responsible for taking her husband's life. And another guy who says the same of his sister and I go into their -- your stories which are very poignant. The fact of the matter is that the American people, in large, want and think that the system is not working, they want to change it. Now, this is a --

JONES: You may be right on that but let me say, though --

LORD: Yeah.

JONES: -- that, you know, people need confidence. You know, you worry about your mom everyday. I worry about my mom everyday. Confidence comes from competence. Isn't it incompetent to be this far in the debate and we still don't have a plan from the President? He's been talking about this for 18 months. Listen, don't you understand why people -- even people who might want to give him a chance are terrified right now?

LORD: Sure. Look, look, here's the thing, I mean, let's -- I understand, I understand. But as you know, you've seen the pictures when Obamacare was passed, right, it was like this high. OK, so, to repeal and replace means you got to have people up there going through this through every last, you know, page of this thing to figure out that they're not going to accidentally hurt people here. And we'll get this done, you know, at the same time.

[21:55:08] JONES: OK, we will come back.


JONES: Stick around. We got some more questions from the audience in our next segment. Thank you.


JONES: Welcome back to "The Messy Truth". I'm Van Jones. I got Jeffrey Lord here with me. You know, President Donald Trump signed two executive actions today. One is about building a wall on the U.S.-Mexican border, the other one is about taking funding away from sanctuary cities that refuse to handover undocumented immigrants.

But, you know, here's the thing for me, aren't we supposed to be the country of immigrants and refugees? Whatever happened to the Statue of Liberty, "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses, yearning to live free." I feel like you give the Statue of Liberty, Jeffrey, a magic.

[22:00:03] Well, those wrong witches (ph). You want to knock the statue --

LORD: Listen. One thing I can -- and let's start with this. Everybody in this room, not to mention everybody in this country, is a descent of an immigrant, right? I mean.

JONES: Except for Native Americans, but, yes.


LORD: And they came from somewhere else, too, originally. Yes, did they not?

JONES: OK, fine.

LORD: Right, OK. So, that's where we start on this. And his only point here is that when people come into this country from elsewhere, we need to know who they are.