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Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield

Search for the Killer of Two Indiana Teen Girls. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired February 16, 2017 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re going to track him down.

JEAN CASAREZ, GUEST HOST (voice-over): Double murder, a killer on the loose.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re going to get to the bottom of it.

CASAREZ: The manhunt intensifies after two teen girls are killed while hiking on an Indiana trail.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whoever you are that did this, I hope they find him real soon.

CASAREZ: Now police need your help locating this man, photographed around the same time and in the same area the girls were last known to be.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a red hot mess.

CASAREZ: A man threatens his girlfriend with a steak knife, says he`ll drive her to suicide.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s ugly.

CASAREZ: Then the woman`s 15-year-old`s son steps in and shoots him dead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shot him with a shotgun.

CASAREZ: Now the boy faces a murder charge.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is it self-defense, or is it murder?

CASAREZ: A mother of four with a drug problem and a history of prostitution is ordered not to get pregnant again.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Definitely not have any more.

CASAREZ: Does the judge`s order look out for her best interests or violate her human rights?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s not the business or the right of government.

CASAREZ: A father poisons his two young girls with exhaust fumes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)

CASAREZ: And shoots his two stepkids to death in front of his wife. But that`s not the first time he committed murder.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Felt like (INAUDIBLE) everything was taken away from me.

CASAREZ: How in the world did he ever get out on parole?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t think any punishment could fit the crime.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CASAREZ: Good evening. I`m Jean Casarez, in for Ashleigh Banfield. Thank you so much for joining us tonight. This is PRIMETIME JUSTICE.

Breaking news tonight as investigators are digging everywhere for the clues in the shocking double murder of two teenage girls in Delphi, Indiana. We

do have information to report. The state police are serving a search warrant at a home in Delphi. Now, this is in response to information that

police received through tips and through interviews giving probable cause to search the home. No word on whether there have been any arrests at this

hour.

Also and tonight, a community is mourning the 13-year-old Abigail Williams and her friend, 14-year-old Liberty German. As we have been reporting in

this developing story, the girls were believed to be hiking in the woods on Monday when they vanished. The girls were not picked up at an appointed

time. They just weren`t there. But their bodies were found the next day and identified yesterday.

With a killer on the loose, many residents are on high alert tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can`t take your eyes off them for a minute because there are predators out there, and that`s the reality of life.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Most of the people are scared and worried about their kids and their grandkids.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And if they`re not scared, then there`s something wrong.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: And police are still looking for this man in this picture to ask what he may have seen. Now, in this photo, he appears to be on a high

bridge. It is believed to be the same bridge where Liberty took this photo of Abigail and posted it to Snapchat. This is the last trace of the girls

before they were found murdered.

And joining me tonight, first of all, defense attorney Kisha Hebbon and Joey Jackson. But first of all -- and we are going to go to Sergeant Kim

Riley in just a minute. He is with the Indiana State Police.

But we do want to being tonight with Lindsey Eaton. She is a reporter for CBS 4, Fox 59 in Indianapolis. Lindsey, you are at the scene tonight.

Tell us what you have seen with executing of this search warrant at a home?

LINDSEY EATON, FOX 59/CBS 4 (via telephone): Correct. Correct. We`ve been out here for about an hour. State police did serve a search warrant

at this home. Within the past hour, some of the authorities have left. There is still quite a large presence of authorities out here. We have

seen detectives bringing out some boxes from this home.

There`s a field next door to this home. We saw detectives with flashlights looking through the field. At this point, the latest we have heard no

arrest has been made. And the troopers -- or Sergeant Riley actually just told us about an hour ago that they don`t anticipate any arrests to be

made, that this was sort of following up on a tip that they received. He said this is just another piece of the puzzle, but following up on each and

every tip.

CASAREZ: Lindsey, I want some more detail here. How many boxes have you seen authorities take out tonight? Have they taken anything other than

boxes, any carpeting, any mattresses, anything?

EATON: We have not. We have not. We saw maybe just a couple -- like I said, we got here around 7:00 o`clock. We saw maybe a couple boxes taken

from the home. I can tell you there was no crime tape around the house. There are a few authorities still out here. They were searching the field

next door. We saw them going around the house, in and out of the front door. And that`s about it at this point.

[20:05:09]CASAREZ: Have you seen anyone come out of the house, anyone that appears to live in that house?

EATON: We have not.

CASAREZ: Have you talked to anybody in the neighborhood of who might live in that house?

EATON: We just got here about an hour ago. And to tell you the truth, there aren`t many neighbors out here. As you guys have reported, this is a

very rural area out here, not too many neighbors from where I`m standing here right now.

CASAREZ: All right. And joining us tonight is Sergeant Kim Riley. He is with the Indiana State Police. Thank you so much for joining us at such a

pivotal time in this investigation. Sir, I do want to ask you, the search warrant that is being executed right now -- first of all, you did have a

warrant, it`s not just based on probable cause.

SGT. KIM RILEY, INDIANA STATE POLICE (via telephone): It was a search warrant, yes.

CASAREZ: OK. So you went to a judge, and a judge signed off on this warrant. Why did you select this home in Delphi?

RILEY: Through the investigation with the tips and the interviews we`ve had, we had probable cause to go into the house and do a search on it.

CASAREZ: OK. That sounds fairly significant. You know, I want to talk to you about the picture that has been circulating of a man that you want to

talk with. And I think we do have that photograph. This is the area you say, that it was possibly even the same bridge that the two girls were

walking on. This is the walking trail, the Delphi historic trail, and this is the Monon High Bridge, you believe. Have you been able to locate this

man to talk with him yet?

RILEY: Not as yet. We`re still in the process of trying to get some (INAUDIBLE) information on who the subject is.

CASAREZ: OK. Do you believe that he lives in Delphi, which is about 60 miles northwest of Indianapolis?

RILEY: We have -- we`re not sure where the subject may be from or where he lives. But that`s why we put this information out so we can try to get him

tracked down so we can talk to him and just find out what he has seen or saw on the bridge when he was in that area about the same time as the girls

were.

CASAREZ: All right. And Sergeant, about the time the girls were, which leads me to the timeline. These two young girls -- they did not have

school that day. So we know that -- is it true that you believe a relative dropped them off to just have a day for them to be on the walking trail?

RILEY: Right. One of the family members of one of the girls dropped them off at one of the tributaries, so to speak, of the trail, and then they

were supposed to be picked up between 3:00 and 3:30 that afternoon.

CASAREZ: 3:00 and 3:30? So they weren`t going to be there too long. So it was about 1:00 o`clock that they were dropped off, do you believe?

RILEY: I believe it was right around 1:00 o`clock, and then they were supposed to be picked up by another relative at -- between 3:00 and 3:30.

CASAREZ: No, the photograph that is the Snapchat photo that is tragically taken by one of the girls -- there it is right there -- of her friend, this

was taken at approximately what time? What is the timestamp on the photo?

RILEY: Well, because it`s a Snapchat, there is no timestamp on it, so we`re not sure of the exact time. We know it was after the time that they

were let off. But the exact time, we do not have that.

CASAREZ: Now, there`s a lot of things going on social media that nestled in the foliage there may be a human being that is lurking. Have your

forensic investigators looked at that photograph to determine if there is someone amongst the branches behind her?

RILEY: We have looked at it. We`ve blown it up. As a matter of fact, that was done right after we got the picture -- we had access to the

picture. And if you look at the far end of the tracks, it looks like there`s two people actually standing there. But if you blow the picture

up, you`ll notice that there`s actually three poles there to keep cars from being -- trying to drive across the bridge. So that`s the marks that you

see at the end of the tracks.

And the part where you see the trees, we`ve blown that up, and we have not been able to significantly say that that`s a person. As a matter of fact,

we`ve pretty much come to the conclusion that it`s just a shadow, is all that is.

CASAREZ: All right. Now, the tragic thing is that this photograph right here was taken possibly minutes before. You don`t -- I don`t think you

have the timeline of when they were murdered, but their bodies were found. Can you describe for us where their bodies were found because it wasn`t

exactly on the trail, right?

RILEY: No, it was not. It was actually on private property that was in probably about a quarter of a mile from the location where that end of that

bridge is at.

[20:10:06]Actually, that bridge is not even part of the trail at this time. It`s -- they`re in the process of trying to get money to make that part of

the trail, but that actually, if you notice where the two poles are at that I pointed out in that picture, that is actually the end of the trail. And

that`s where, I mean, kids and people just go ahead and walk on across that bridge at their own risk.

CASAREZ: Now, the private property where these two beautiful young girls were found, was there a home on that property?

RILEY: There is a home on the property. It is about, I`m going to say, probably about half to three quarters of a mile away from that location,

but it`s more to the north of the location of where the bodies were found.

CASAREZ: Now, I know the crime scene processing took quite a while, a long time. Why did it take so long?

RILEY: We wanted to basically turn every leaf over that was in that area. It was in a wooded area. We just decided we wanted to make sure that we

covered everything, that was looked at everything, that -- you know, that we -- like I said, that no leaf was not left unturned. And plus, we wanted

to make sure and get the pictures and get the information off the bodies as far as DNA and anything else that we could find. We just wanted to make

sure that was all done and done correctly and done properly.

CASAREZ: That`s right. And it is one of the most important parts of this investigation.

Sergeant, please don`t go anywhere. We`re going to take a short break. But I`ve got many more questions because you have to solve a double murder,

and we want to do what we can to help you.

Now, we`re not done here. There is a manhunt for the killer of two Indiana teens, and now police say tips are turning into big leads as they serve a

search warrant at a home in Delphi. This happened minutes ago.

Our breaking news coverage continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CASAREZ: And we do continue to follow breaking news tonight, a manhunt for the killer of two teenage girls in Indiana, their bodies found near a creek

less than a mile from an abandoned railroad bridge where a picture of one of the girls was taken. Tonight, police descending on a home, serving a

search warrant connected to the case. What could they be looking for, and why do they still want to talk to this man, who they say was spotted on the

bridge around the same time that the girls were walking? That`s next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:17:04]CASAREZ: And we do have breaking news tonight. Detectives -- they are desperately searching for a breakthrough in the double homicide of

Indiana teens Liberty German and Abigail Williams. We are getting the latest from Indiana State Police, including news on the search of a home in

Delphi. It was prompted by tips and interviews, this as the investigation into the killings heats up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The search is on for a killer in the small city of Delphi.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, everybody`s upset!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Abigail Williams and Liberty German disappeared after hiking near the Monon trail bridge. 24 hours later, a search crew

volunteer found the teens` bodies.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Double homicide investigation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a grainy picture of a man seen on the Delphi historic trails Monday, the same day the girls disappeared.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have nobody in custody at this time Yes, there is somebody out there that did this horrendous crime.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re going to get to the bottom of this. We feel confident.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: And my panel is back with me. We also have from the Indiana State Police, Sergeant Kim Riley, who is joining us. Sergeant, thank you

so much. We do know that a picture, and it may have been minutes before these girls were murdered, but Abigail Williams, a Snapchat photo of

Abigail Williams is there on the trail which was a railroad line.

Did you find that picture on one of the girls` cell phones?

RILEY: I really can`t answer that question at this point in time while we`re in the investigation.

CASAREZ: All right. I know Snapchat is something that, you know, people who subscribe can get it. But their phones, their iPhones -- did they have

phones with them? Obviously, one did. They took the picture.

RILEY: Well, I can`t answer that question at this time because of the investigation and what`s going on.

CASAREZ: I do understand, definitely. The picture of the person that you want to talk to because we`ve got two pictures in this case -- this person,

this man, unidentified -- I`m just wondering is there a security camera out there that took this picture? Was it a hunter`s camera? Was it a wildlife

camera?

RILEY: At this point in time, I can`t comment on that, either. I`m sorry. I don`t want to compromise the investigation at this time.

CASAREZ: Do you have any more surveillance video or photos at all that you are looking at because since there was a home in the area, the two girls

were found on the property, there could have been a camera? Any other visual images?

RILEY: We`re still looking into that information that`s still out there that we`re looking into cameras and stuff that were on private property

that was on residences in the area, but none actually on the trail itself.

CASAREZ: So the two young girls were found together. Does it appear that one may have witnessed the murder of the other? Are you looking for just

one person?

[20:20:04]RILEY: I really can`t comment on that at this point in time.

CASAREZ: Were they clothed?

RILEY: I definitely can`t comment on that. We don`t want to compromise the investigation.

CASAREZ: I understand. Was the cause of death obvious?

RILEY: I`m not -- I`m not going to comment on that, either, at this time. We don`t want to give any information out that somebody (INAUDIBLE) people

will start reading information and they come in and start saying that this and that, that they were involved in the case because they know what

happened. We don`t want that kind of information coming forward. So we`re going to keep that quiet.

CASAREZ: I understand. You know, I do want to go to our attorneys, Kisha Hebbon, Joey Jackson. Kisha, this is an important part because this is the

investigation. There is someone out there that`s a killer.

KISHA HEBBON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right. And until they find enough probable cause, they cannot make an arrest. And obviously, they`re looking

for evidence of someone who was involved or how these girls were murdered, and until they find that, there is no arrest that can be made. There`s

actually no probable cause, and that`s necessary here.

CASAREZ: But Joey, the cause of death -- why can`t some of this be released at this point?

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: You know, it`s important and I understand what the sergeant`s doing to protect the integrity of the investigation, so

someone doesn`t come and give false information that they only would have known had they been there, but they heard it on the show.

But listen, you know what, Jean? I`m encouraged by the police work here for a number of reasons. Number one, a judge doesn`t sign a warrant for

probable cause to search a home unless there`s specific information in there such that the judge is satisfied that that home is identifiable to

what occurred on the scene.

Number two, I think forensics in this case is significantly important and because, I hate to say it, but the bodies were recovered so close in time,

you don`t have that deterioration issue. And so you`ll find blood and you`ll able to test it. Any hair, fibers, you`ll be able to test that.

Anything else that would be of significance, even saliva you`ll can test. And so because of the forensics involved and the distance and the proximity

of times when the bodies are found, I think it`s very important.

The final thing, of course, eyewitnessed. But when you`re in the woods, I mean, you know, there`s limitations on how many people would have seen it,

which goes back to your issues and questions, Jean, in terms of the surveillance, the cameras and what other information is out there with

these images.

CASAREZ: Sergeant, Let me ask you about the autopsy reports. I know they were completed yesterday. I know they were extensive, two autopsy reports.

When will those reports be concluded and finished?

RILEY: I really can`t tell you that. I know we`re still waiting on, like, the toxicology reports, all the evidence that was taken off the bodies.

That`ll all have to be analyzed. So it could take -- of course, we are putting a rush on everything, but it still could take weeks before all that

information comes back.

CASAREZ: Now, I do know toxicology can take some time, but I also know in a case like this that DNA can be put on an expedited process. Do you

believe foreign DNA was found on these girls?

RILEY: I can`t comment on that at this time.

CASAREZ: All right. All right. This is a very basic question, but did they have their shoes on? Were they as they were as they were walking on

that trail?

RILEY: I`m sorry, but I can`t make a comment on that, either.

CASAREZ: All right. One last question. This community has never had a double homicide, Sergeant, from what I understand, and it has been years

that Delphi, a community of 3,000, has even had a murder. What do you say to this community tonight because a shooter is on the loose, a killer, a

double murderer?

RILEY: Well, we tell people, like we`ve been telling since this has all started, you need to be safe out there. We are working 24/7 to try to

solve this horrendous crime. We are looking diligently for this person or persons that committed this crime.

But we also want people to realize, you know, this is a small town community. People are very close. They know each other. They go to

school together. Even though we`ve got two high schools in this county of about 20,000 people, you know, a lot of people work at the same places. So

these people all know one another. And they look to each other for strength and comfort (INAUDIBLE) They look to each other for that helpful

sign that they -- that they`re -- that the need to keep going ever day, especially after such a tragic event.

CASAREZ: Sergeant, one last question before we go. Our producers estimated approximately 30 sex offenders in a 10-mile radius of Delphi.

Are you looking into that area?

RILEY: Yes, we are. We`re looking -- we`re looking at every angle. We`re looking at social media. We`re looking at sex offenders. We`re looking

every direction we can to try to come up with that, some information on trying to catch these people that did this.

[20:25:02]CASAREZ: All right, Sergeant Kim Riley, thank you so much for joining us. We will keep on this case.

A teenager is charged with shooting and killing his mother`s boyfriend. Now investigators are trying to determine if Paul Greg`s (ph) shooting was

self-defense. But Sheriff Grady Judd says getting to the bottom of what happened will not be easy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRADY JUDD, POLK COUNTY, FLORIDA, SHERIFF: It`s a red hot mess. We`re trying to figure it out, OK? I can tell you, clearly, this was not "Leave

It to Beaver," OK? It was not that environment at all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: And just ahead, a look at some of the facts of this case that could complicate the sheriff`s probe.

[20:30:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN AND HLN NEWS CORRESPONDENT: A 15-year-old boy in Florida witnesses his mother`s boyfriend threatening her with a steak knife, saying

he will torment her, enough to drive her to suicide. The boyfriend had been drinking and was yelling at the mother, telling her she was worthless.

When deputies arrived on the scene, they found the boy had shot Paul Gregg in the back with a shotgun. Gregg was dead in the master bedroom. Now, the

15-year-old boy is charged with murder, and even the sheriff is having a tough time making sense out of it.

(START VIDEO CLIP)

GRADY JUDD, SHERIFF, POLK COUNTY, FLORIDA: We`ve got a man that was drunk. We`ve got his girlfriend who he`s lived with for apparently about five

years, who is known to partake in the evil liquid as well. We`ve got a boyfriend of the girlfriend. We`ve got a 15-year-old kid in the middle of

this manure pile. And we`re trying to sort it all out.

Here is the, you know, the $64 question. Is it self-defense or is it murder? We know we have a death investigation, a homicide investigation.

And as soon as we make that determination, we`ll let you know. If it`s self-defense, we`ll go home. If it`s murder, he`ll go to jail.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: Guess what. He didn`t go home. He`s behind bars tonight. Arresting charges, preliminary charges, but murder is what they have determined that

it is.

Ray Caputo, reporter for News 96.5 WDBO Radio in Orlando, joins the panel. All right. I want to start from the beginning here. Because it really

starts on Valentine`s night. Because you have a couple, right, and the girlfriend, who is 36-year-old Jessica Whidden. She decides she`s going to

leave. And so, she`s not there for Valentine`s, but she`s with her son. Take me when they come home from dinner.

RAY CAPUTO, REPORTER, NEWS 96.5 WDBO RADIO: Things had been tense leading up to Valentine`s Day. The girlfriend -- she wasn`t even staying at the

house. She and her son come home Valentine`s Day night late at night, and Paul Gregg is apparently drunk on the couch, and they immediately start to

get into it.

So the mom goes to the bathroom, the boy kind of tries to step in between all this. He says that Paul Gregg is weaving around the knife emphatically.

He says he feels threatened, so he.

CASAREZ: Okay. So I want to stop you there. I want to stop you there, Ray. So, mother has gone into the bathroom. The boyfriend, Gregg, is in the

living room waving around a knife. And the 15-year-old boy is watching it. What happens next?

CAPUTO: So he goes. He says he feels threatened. And he goes into his room and loads a 12-gauge shotgun. And comes out and points it at Gregg. Now,

Gregg seeing this, he goes into the master bedroom where there is known to be guns. And the kid follows him and Gregg goes to the back of the bedroom

and kid basically fires off one round, hits Gregg right on the back, and Gregg crumbled to the floor.

CASAREZ: All right. That`s the second time that he pulled the trigger, the first time he pulled the trigger, the safety was on, so he had the safety

off.

CAPUTO: Right. He tried to shoot at him once as he was going into the bedroom and then he actually went into the bedroom and ended up shooting

him.

CASAREZ: Right. And was he.

CAPUTO: He tried to shoot him twice.

CASAREZ: . let me ask you this. Was Gregg in the closet where all the guns were because that is what the 15-year-old is saying, he thought he was

going to do, he was going to go get a gun, Gregg, or was he just walking in the bedroom, the victim?

CAPUTO: No. The story stacks up. Police say that he was found with guns nearby and that kind of lines up with the 15-year-old`s story that he knew

there were guns in the bedroom. So that lines up. He was found with guns nearby according to authorities.

CASAREZ: All right. Joey Jackson, you`ve got a 15-year-old in Florida that is facing murder charges.

JOEY JACKSON, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY, CNN AND HLN LEGAL ANALYST: That`s right.

CASAREZ: Juvenile. Watching his mother go through not only the verbal harassment but waving around a knife so he gets a gun.

JACKSON: What you`re setting up.

CASAREZ: Force meets force.

JACKSON: That`s right. Well, what you`re setting up, Jean, is a very sympathetic case. It relates to him and his activity, and I`m sure Kisha

defending it will say so in a moment. But I think from a prosecutor`s point, what you mentioned just before is very significant. He unlatched

that safety. Thereby, you have your intent.

[20:35:00] And when you shoot someone in the back, it`s not necessarily representative of an imminent threat to you. Now, could there be an

imminent threat in the events -- excuse me, that this person was able to get those guns and come back, yes, but at the moment in time when that

round was discharged and he killed him, does that equal murder, that`s the question, and apparently to the police at this point it does.

CASAREZ: So in other words, his state of mind, did he believe an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury, Kisha, or.

KISHA HEBBON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I would say yes. And it has this what a reasonable person in those circumstances believe there was an imminent

threat of death. This man have a history of domestic violence against this child`s mother. He had a knife in his hand. And he said, I`m going to

torment you. And they were arguing.

So I feel that this child did believe that this male is going to kill either his mother or him. And I don`t think he should be charged with

murder. I really don`t.

CASAREZ: He had been drinking. Now, Joey, let`s put this into the fact pattern. He may have admitted to police that when he initially got the

shotgun and aimed it at Gregg as he is sitting on the sofa, that he had an intent to kill, he wanted to shoot him.

JACKSON: Well, true, but the critical time will be measured not by what he wanted to do at that time, but what he did do eventually at a later time

when he shot him in the back. And so while I do think it`s a very sympathetic case, and remember in Florida, they have something called

direct file.

If the prosecution really wants to go with this and take this to adult court, we`re looking at a whole other level here. But what it will turn on

is the immediacy of the threat. No, you don`t have to wait to be shot before you could defend yourself, but do you, and did this teen act

prematurely and shooting in the back before there was such a present danger that he can arguably say self-defense. That`s the point.

CASAREZ: But, Kisha, he could have been shot if he waited for the man to turn around.

HEBBON: Right. The problem I have with Joey`s theory is that this man was going into a bedroom where there were guns. And why would this boy sit

there and say, okay, let me see if he`s gonna shoot me. He tried to stop that threat before this man kills him or his mother. And I wish I was his

defense attorney.

JACKSON: You just might be.

CASAREZ: Ray Caputo, I want to ask you. What is the latest that you`re hearing right now?

CAPUTO: Well, the son is in jail. He`s being charged for murder. And here`s something that I have to bring up. I read through the arrest report today

and this might offer us clues into what the police are thinking in addition to what you are saying.

That in the arrest report, the son said he was waving -- he saw Gregg waving around a steak knife. The mother couldn`t corroborate that. She said

in the arrest report that she didn`t see a steak knife.

CASAREZ: But she was in the bathroom.

CAPUTO: Right. She was, but the door had opened, okay, so had said the son was standing between her and Gregg, you know, the way I read this. That

might be a little clue in terms of what the police are digging.

CASAREZ: Joey, what you`re saying right there is that sort of a (inaudible) right? Because the state of mind doesn`t really form until they`re in the

bedroom together.

JACKSON: Right. All of this will be relevant, of course, and the prosecution will take you down that path, saying, listen, this was

retaliatory. This was a person who didn`t like this guy, who wanted to get him, he tormented his mother, and he was gonna pay.

And as result of that, that`s where the intent formed. He wasn`t in fear of anything. So watch for that argument as we move forward, though again, I

concur, it`s a very sympathetic case in light of what the guy was doing to his mom.

CASAREZ: All right. Well, a judge makes a controversial decision involving the children of a drug-addicted sex worker. Not only did the judge take

away her fourth child due to neglect. She told her not to have any more babies. Should she be able to do that, the judge?

Plus in Michigan, a father cops to an unthinkable crime, killing his children and stepchildren, but this isn`t the first time Gregory Green has

been charged with murder and even convicted. He apparently killed his first wife too.

[20:40:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CASAREZ: Can a judge tell a mother of four not to get pregnant again? How about when the mother of four is struggling with drug addiction and is a

prostitute? The woman has had all of her children taken away because of neglect and court documents say three of her children were born addicted to

drugs.

The judge says she wants the woman to stabilize her life and one day get her children back. But can she actually order the woman to avoid getting

pregnant again? Robyn Walensky, senior news anchor for the Blaze Radio Network joins my panel. Robin, just start from the beginning. Why was this

woman in court? How many children does she have? And does she have custody of any of them?

ROBYN WALENSKY, SENIOR NEWS ANCHOR, THE BLAZE RADIO NETWORK: Well, she is a total train wreck. She was in court because she was there on a prostitution

charge. She`s addicted to heroin so she has a drug rap sheet. This woman does not have a good track record, Jean. And no, she does not have custody

of any of the four children.

So the judge, I`m sure she had the best of intentions to help this woman, but I really believe the order is bogus, Jean, and I`ll tell you why. Is

the judge going to handcuff herself to this woman and take her to the OB/GYN to get counseling on birth control or get her tubes tied? She was a

prostitute at one time, she has four kids, and none of them are with her. Two of the four, by the way, are addicted to drugs.

[20:45:00] CASAREZ: Right. We understand that her children, one is with her mother, so grandma, with aunt, one is adopted, and one is in a foster

family. You know, I want to go to our experts here. Joey, first of all, this is very complex. It`s very sad and it`s very complex.

JACKSON: Absolutely.

CASAREZ: It`s sad for this woman who is addicted. Sadder for these children that are born into this.

JACKSON: Absolutely.

CASAREZ: Did the judge make the right decision? Will this order stand up on appeal?

JACKSON: No. The judge did not make the right decision, Jean, and no, the order will not stand up on appeal, and here is why. As much of a train

wreck as this mother is, the fact is that judges have limitations. This thing is called the declaration of independence. Remember that 1776, right,

when title to life, liberty, pursuit of happiness.

The fact is that the constitutional while it doesn`t have a provision in there that speaks to the issue of, you know, the fact that we have

protections regarding what we do -- there is and it has been read by the Supreme Court to otherwise suggest that we have a right to pro create, we

have a right to do what we want to do, we have a right to live our life and to make decisions that are not otherwise impeded by the government and so

based on that.

CASAREZ: But, Kisha, I got to go to you.

JACKSON: . it won`s stand.

CASAREZ: Kisha, what`s the answer here?

HEBBON: I wish more judges would issue orders like this. The long term effects of these children dealing with drug addiction, dealing with being

in and out of foster homes. It has to stop. I wish that judges would say you know what? You have to go on a form of birth control because it`s a

burden on society and it`s not fair to these children. So I agree 100 percent with the judge.

JACKSON: I agree with what Kisha says, but unfortunately, the law suggests otherwise. Of course, there are issues with women having children like

this, there`s multiple fathers, they`re drug addicted. But there are limits to what the courts can impose on our internal bodies.

CASAREZ: So what`s the answer?

JACKSON: The right to bodily integrity. The answer starts at birth. The answer starts with having a parental system where we`re working with people

such that they live their lives in the best way they possibly can. The answer starts with the educational process.

The answer starts with having schools and churches and parents and communities who support and love and provide attention to people so they

don`t engage in this life. The answer does not lie in a court telling me what I can do, when I can do it, how I should do it. We have those rights

in the constitution. And as a result of that, this order goes nowhere.

HEBBON: Joey disagree.

CASAREZ: Joey, listen to this. I want to share. This is part of the order. Everybody, listen to this. There has been ample evidence admitted in this

case to show the pattern and history of drug abuse by this mother. The pattern and history of giving birth to drug addicted infants and the

pattern and history displayed by this mother who essentially leaves the young drug addicted infants with others who can care for the babies while

never really engaging in services to help herself despite repeated and numerous offerings.

An intervention in this cycle is needed here. Intervention. And that is what this court is doing. Kisha, what she`s trying to do, the judge, is to

help this young woman.

HEBBON: Right. And as long as this woman is out having babies, using drugs, selling her body, she`s not going to stop what she`s doing. She needs to

focus on getting herself together instead of pro-creating. I understand there is the constitutional right. But the problem lies in her lack of

responsibility, and saying I`m creating a life here. It`s my responsibility not to create a life when I`m using drugs and I`m out in the streets being

a prostitute.

JACKSON: You have a right to bodily integrity. As horrific as what this woman is doing, unfortunately, the courts cannot impose upon my individual

views, my individual beliefs, and individual rights that I have.

CASAREZ: What about the best interest of the child?

JACKSON: Those rights are paramount and so those rights are important but.

HEBBON: And I think that abuse and neglect start when the child is in the womb, in my opinion. I know the law may say something differently, but if

you`re using drugs while you`re a child, you`re abusing that child. So this judge is trying to stop that.

CASAREZ: Should there be a crime?

HEBBON: I say so. I see the results of this and it`s terrible. Most of these kids end up having severe medical problems. They continue to have

long term issues.

CASAREZ: Long term history of medical issues, you are right. Continuing his admissions, they`re shocking. A Michigan man admits killing his two

children and two stepchildren right in front of their mother. But it`s not the first time he`s been charged and convicted with murder.

[20:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CASAREZ: Four beautiful children, a growing and loving family. They were just wiped out at the hands of the man they called daddy. Gregory Green of

Dearborn Heights, Michigan admits he killed his two young children by carbon monoxide poisoning and shot his two teenage stepchildren to death in

front of their mother.

Green also bound and tortured his wife. She survived. But this wasn`t the first time he killed. Green stabbed his first wife who was pregnant in

1991. In that case, his mother and about a dozen others begged the judge for leniency. He was released on parole after 16 years in prison. Well, now

he`s back in court and he`s suddenly looking remorseful.

(START VIDEO CLIP)

GREGORY GREEN, ADMITTED TO KILLING HIS CHILDREN AND STEPCHILDREN: It was gas. Carbon monoxide. Kara and Chadney, I shot them.

[20:55:00] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Okay. You indicated by carbon monoxide and by shot gun. Is that correct, sir?

GREEN: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: I want to start with Chris Renwick. He is a reporter for WJR Radio in Detroit. Because when I first read this, it was like, what, is this

real? There are so many facts. There are so many children. There were four beautiful, beautiful children. Two biological, two stepchildren. Tell us

exactly what happened.

CHRIS RENWICK, REPORTER AT WJR RADIO: Yeah, it`s, you know, really a grim story. It all happened on September 24th at around 1:00 a.m. Green actually

called police and waited in the driveway for them to arrive. When police got to this home in Dearborn Heights City in Metro Detroit, they found his

two youngest children, his biological children, coy and tamely, in a car, poisoned to death. Carbon monoxide was the cause of death in those two

cases.

In the basement, Chadney was there, the 19-year-old, 17-year-old Kara were there. They were shot to death in front of their mother, Faith Green, who

was bound and tied up, shot in the foot, slashed in the face, and made to watch the execution of her two oldest children.

CASAREZ: Chris, there are some devil in the details, what they always say. There is more to this because the two youngest, five years old, Koi and

Kaliegh, they were asleep in their beds that evening. Those little beauties right there had gone to sleep so they were somehow lured out of the house

into the car.

And then he took the carbon monoxide hose that he had attached to the back of the car, put it in the car window, attached it with duct tape and that`s

how they died. Now, it was all the same criminal episode, right? Because then he went in the house and he confronted his two older children, a 19-

year-old, 17-year-old, both stepchildren, but his children. What did he do to them?

RENWICK: Well, again it was -- it got worse because he took them to the basement and they were shot with a shotgun and as he admitted to in court,

all while their mother was made to watch.

CASAREZ: All right. I want to go to Charles Longstreet who is joining us. He is attorney for Gregory Green. Sir, thank you for joining us. This isn`t

the first time.

CHARLES LONGSTREET, ATTORNEY FOR GREGORY GREEN: Good evening.

CASAREZ: This isn`t the first time that your client got in trouble with the law. 1991, what happened in that year?

LONGSTREET: I`m not involved in that case. It`s my understanding there was a previous homicide involving a prior wife and unborn child.

CASAREZ: And he copped the plea. He pled guilty. He confessed.

LONGSTREET: That is correct.

CASAREZ: He was in there for 16 years.

LONGSTREET: That`s accurate.

CASAREZ: Why only 16 years? I mean, that was an intentional murder of his wife. How did he get that deal?

LONGSTREET: Well, that was back in 1991. I didn`t have any involvement in that case. I couldn`t get into the details of why he got that deal. I

really can`t expound on that.

CASAREZ: What -- tell me about him. I mean, there is something -- he commits crimes, he murders, he kills.

LONGSTREET: The only thing I could tell you is that he`s been cooperative with me. He`s been cooperative with the authorities throughout. And he was

a relatively easy client to deal with.

CASAREZ: Relatively easy client to deal with. I don`t know. Joey Jackson, I don`t get it.

JACKSON: I don`t either. I can just tell you this. People are probably wondering why he was not subjected to the death penalty, and I`ll say this.

In this jurisdiction history in Michigan, since it became part of the United States, that penalty has never been operative. So since the 1800s,

they have never killed anyone because I assure you if they did, he would be a classic candidate to death row.

CASAREZ: Kisha, why did they allow him to plead guilty?

HEBBON: I know. Well, he has that right. He can wave his right to trial and he did the prosecution a favor by pleading guilty to a crime.

CASAREZ: It was a plea deal. It became a second-degree murder case.

HEBBON: Right. Well, I`m sure with the sentencing of this new case, it`s going to get him a harsher sentence because it`s a very bad history that

the judge is going to take into consideration.

JACKSON: He won`t be coming out again.

CASAREZ: That`s the good part. All right. Thank you to all of my guests. Thank you so much for tonight. I`m Jean Casarez. We`ll see you back here

Monday night at 8:00 for "Primetime Justice." "Forensic Files" starts right now. Good night, everybody.

END