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Wolf

Interview with Sen. Mazie Hirono (D) HI; Obama Accused of Wiretapping; New Revised Travel Ban; Explaining the FISA Court. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired March 06, 2017 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer. It's 1:00 p.m. here in Washington. Wherever you are watching from around the world, thanks very much for joining us.

We're following two major stories this hour. First, the uproar over explosive but unsubstantiated wiretapping claims leveled by President Trump against President Obama.

The president alleges, without presenting any evidence, that President Obama ordered the wiretapping of his phones last year. Several former senior U.S. officials have dismissed the claims calling them nonsense. We'll have the latest on where this goes from here.

Also, President Trump just signed a new travel ban executive order. The secretary of state, Rex Tillerson, says it will make America safer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REX TILLERSON, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: This revised order will bolster the security of the United States and her allies.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: The new order removes Iraq from the list of majority Muslim countries, included in the ban. Six other countries remain on the list. We'll explain why and tell you about other changes.

But we begin with the back and forth over President Trump's unsubstantiated wiretap claims against President Obama.

The FBI is calling on the Justice Department to refute the claims, but the White House is calling on Congress to investigate.

Let's get the latest from our White House Correspondent Sara Murray. Sara, the White House press secretary, Sean Spicer, called on Congress to investigate reports of wiretapping. But has the administration provided any evidence at all to substantiate the claims made by the president?

SARA MURRAY, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, they haven't. And a number of administration officials have been asked about this. We've continued to press them on this over the weekend and this morning to say what evidence does the president have that he was wiretapped when he was the president-elect or when he was a candidate for president and working out of Trump Tower?

It's worth noting, Wolf, that a spokesman from former President Barack Obama has denied that he ever ordered a wiretap on a U.S. citizen. People have also pointed that it's not within the president's authority to just order a wiretap, in and of itself. That it has to be approved by a court.

And we even heard from the former director of national intelligence over the weekend who said, no wiretapping like this was ordered, to his knowledge, under his watch.

So, so far, we're really lacking any evidence to support what President Trump claims happened.

BLITZER: This all started, Sara, with a series of Saturday morning tweets by the president. Do we know what prompted that Twitter tirade?

MURRAY: Well, these were tweets that caught many of his staffers by surprise. A number of his senior staffers were not traveling with him this weekend.

And he seems to have gotten this idea, from the best we can tell, from a Breitbart story that was going around among some White House officials.

What we do know is the president does sincerely believe that there may have been some wiretapping. He vented about it to guests at Mar-a- Lago which is where he spent this meeting and told some that he felt he would be vindicated when there was an investigation into this.

Now, Sean Spicer, the White House Press Secretary, is expected to speak more to reporters later this afternoon. Obviously, one of the questions high on our list will be why the president believes this happened, what evidence they may have to provide -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Sara Murray. We'll talk to you after that briefing. Sara, thanks very much.

Let's discuss all of this with my panel. Joining us now, our Senior Law Enforcement Analyst, the former FBI assistant director, Tom Fuentes; chief White House correspondent for "The New York Times," Peter Baker, he's also former Moscow bureau chief for "The Washington Post;" and CNN Chief Political Analyst Gloria Borger.

Gloria, the political ramifications of the president's allegations, very serious allegations, against President Obama. They are enormous. The Congressional investigation, the White House says it now wants to see how distracting is this, though, for Republicans?

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, it's distracting only in the sense that they now have to make a decision about whether they're going to support the president in his charge or whether they're not.

Look, the White House was sent spinning. They're like gerbils in a wheelhouse here going round and round, trying to figure out a way to deal with the president's charges without having to address whether or not this actually occurred.

I would argue, by the way, that if the president of the United States believes that this is what occurred and there was a FISA warrant for this, that he can have it immediately declassified if he wants to do that and just put it out there for the American public to see.

BLITZER: Yes, the president, as you know, Tom, he can declassify anything he wants. If he says it's declassified, it's declassified. He doesn't need a Congressional investigation.

BORGER: Right.

BLITZER: He can just tell the FBI, release the information, if that's what he wants to do.

I want you to listen to Sarah Huckabee Sanders, the Principal Deputy White House Press Secretary, what she said earlier this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SARAH HUCKABEE SANDERS, U.S. PRINCIPAL DEPUTY WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I don't know that he has talked directly with the FBI director.

[13:05:00] GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, CHIEF ANCHOR, ABC NEWS: He can ask his Justice Department if this is true. He can ask the director of National Intelligence if this is true. Has he done is that?

SANDERS: Look, I don't know that actually that is the case, George. From my understanding is that there is a process that this has to follow. And in order to go through that process, this first step is a congressional review and that's what we're asking to take place right now.

I don't know that he has gotten a firm denial from the FBI.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: He doesn't need a Congressional review to declassify whatever he wants, right?

TOM FUENTES, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: No, that's true. He can declassify it.

But, you know, Director Comey of the FBI is the one and only person that could absolutely say it didn't happen. That there was no FISA wiretap.

Now, whether somebody wiretapped President Trump illegally or people, you know, without the authority, that's a different story. And I don't know that there's any proof of that either But for a FISA wire, that's going to come from the FBI. No other agency in the government is authorized to do one. Not the NSA, not the CIA. Only the FBI.

And it would take a handful of attorneys from the FBI -- agents from the FBI, attorneys from the Department of Justice National Security Division. They would go before the FISA court which is a secret panel here in Washington. And that's how the authority would be granted from that court to go ahead and conduct a FISA.

The director of the FBI knows absolutely whether it did or did not happen.

BLITZER: And when the FBI asked the Justice Department, issue a statement saying this simply did not happen. We haven't heard, officially yet, from the FBI. No public statement. We haven't heard, officially yet, from the Justice Department.

But that request is ongoing because it's such a serious charge leveled by President Trump.

FUENTES: Well, what's interesting there is that you have an attorney general that's recused himself from anything related to this part of the investigation, involving Russian involvement with President Trump or his people.

And then, you don't have a deputy attorney general sitting yet, so I don't know who's going ask at the Department of Justice, at this point.

BLITZER: They have an acting deputy attorney general.

FUENTES: Well, they have an acting. But, again you know, that's not at the highest level to make that kind of a thing of a statement against the president of the United States.

BLITZER: Peter, I'm anxious for your thoughts, as a former Moscow bureau chief, how this is all being viewed in Russia right now.

PETER BAKER, CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": Well, I think they're a little confused by all this, honestly. They don't have a system in which this kind of hub bub would come together.

First of all, wiretapping would not be an unusual thing in Russia even for a former president.

But, you know, they are seeing at this, I think, and see things kind of spinning out of control. To the extent that they thought they could, in fact, have a reset, to use a phrase, with President Trump under this new administration, given how friendly he has sounded in this last year.

I think they recognize in Russia that that's now kind of up in the air, too, because anything that President Trump would try to do, as he, himself, has pointed out, would now be seem as politically toxic and problematic. So, they're beginning to turn away from the enthusiasm they had about President Trump's election. The stock market, which had gone way up right after these elections, had begun really going down again.

BORGER: And, you know, now, there's a -- because of what President Trump has done and, you know, these alleged communications between the Russians and people who work for Donald Trump, that the -- it's now under a magnifying glass, the relationship between Russia and the United States, which is not -- I don't think it's what they wanted.

BAKER: No, and I have to say, by the way, there's nothing inherently wrong --

BORGER: Right.

BAKER: -- with Russian officials talking with American officials or even people who might become American officials. That's pretty normal. Senator Sessions, then Senator Sessions, met with a Russian ambassador.

BORGER: So what?

BAKER: Yes, exactly. The problem was he told the Congress he didn't have contacts with the Russians. He said, well, I only met that, in terms of my capacity as a campaign surrogate not in my capacity as a senator. But he didn't say that at the time.

So, it's -- the question is why are they denying things that might not seem so bad if they actually had been forth right about it?

BLITZER: Because the president and other top aides for weeks and weeks and weeks were denying there were any communications at all.

BAKER: Exactly.

BORGER: Exactly.

BLITZER: Now, we know at least five or six Trump officials, supporters, activists were, indeed, speaking to the Russians.

FUENTES: Wolf, the opinion of the world isn't entirely negative on this. Because, in many countries, to have a president and heads of intelligence agencies and the chief law enforcement officer in the country publicly disputing something, that would result in somebody's execution.

So, in a lot of countries, this actually is praise-worthy in the United States that these kind of discussions happen.

I ran the FBI's international operation the last five years in the bureau. I was on the Executive Committee of Interpol. And I know from discussing this in -- with many countries that don't have this kind of freedom, that they -- they kind of envy that.

And, in a way, it looks good for the United States, that we can have this public brawl, if you will, disputing this whole event. BLITZER: That's putting a positive spin on what's going on right now. Tom, thanks very much, Peter, Gloria. Everybody, stay with us.

I want to get to the other big story we're following. President Trump has just signed a new travel ban executive order. It applies to six majority Muslim countries, not seven. It includes other major changes as well.

[13:10:03] Let's go to our Justice Reporter Laura Jarrett. She's got details for us. Laura, walk us through the new order and how it differs from the previous one some six weeks ago.

LAURA JARRETT, CNN JUSTICE REPORTER: Wolf, the major take-aways here are that those with valid visas will be excluded from the travel ban. Iraq has been removed from the list of banned countries, and all refugees are still barred from entering the U.S. for 120 days.

We also learned new information from the Justice Department as it seeks to bolster the administration's national security claims.

Let's take a listen to the attorney general earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEFF SESSIONS, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: Many people seeking to support or commit terrorist acts will try to enter through our refugee program. In fact, today, more than 300 people, according to the FBI, who came here as refugees, are under an FBI investigation today for potential terrorism related activities.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JARRETT: Now, I should note, on a call with reporters, Wolf, earlier today, officials did not provide any supporting information about these 300 individuals. So, we don't know if they came from any of the six banned countries or when they were radicalized -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Explain what went into the decision to drop Iraq from that list of originally seven Muslim majority banned countries.

JARRETT: Well, we learned earlier this morning that the decision was made after extensive lobbying from the Iraqi government at the highest levels, according to a senior U.S. official.

And as the secretary of state, Rex Tillerson, explained earlier today, Iraq has been an important ally in the fight to defeat ISIS. Those were some of the factors -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Laura. Laura Jarrett reporting for us.

By the way, we're just getting a statement from the House speaker, Paul Ryan, on this new executive order. In the statement, he says, this revised executive order advances our shared goal for protecting the homeland. I commend the administration and secretary Kelly, in particular, for their hard work on this measure to improve our vetting standards. We will continue to work with President Trump to keep our country safe. That from the speaker of the House, Paul Ryan.

Coming up, Democrats are also weighing in. The Senate majority leader, Chuck Schumer, just tweeting, "Americans need to know that this latest exec order has absolutely nothing to do with Muslim security. It is still a ban.

Senator Mazie Hirono just standing by to join us. We'll get her reaction to the new travel ban and the president's wiretapping claims right after this.

[13:12:40]

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[13:16:43] WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: The FBI is asking the Justice Department to refute President Trump's explosive wiretap allegations. The president, without any proof, accuses President Obama of wiretapping his phones ahead of the 2016 election. Several former senior U.S. officials have dismissed the claims calling them nonsense.

Democratic Senator Mazie Hirono of Hawaii is a member of the Judiciary and Armed Services Committee. She's joining us live from Capitol Hill.

Senator, thanks for joining us.

SEN. MAZIE HIRONO (D), HAWAII: Good afternoon.

BLITZER: Should the Justice Department refute the president's claims publicly?

HIRONO: Certainly. In fact, this is yet another distracting early morning tweet from President Trump. We shouldn't - which has no basis in fact. So we should not be distracted from the issue at hand, which is, let's have an independent investigation into Russian attempts to interfere with our elections and the Trump team's ties to Russia.

BLITZER: The chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Devin Nunes, issued a statement and let me read it to you in part. "The committee will make inquiries into whether the government was conducting surveillance activities on any political party's campaign officials or surrogates, and we will continue to investigate this issue if the evidence warrants it." Does that statement, from your perspective, senator, go far enough?

HIRONO: Well, again, we're going down that path of where President Trump wants us to go, which is very distracting from what the Russians were attempting to do with regard to our elections and the Trump team's ties. So we have procedures for wiretapping that they involve having to show probable cause. Now, the president's allegation about President Obama asking for such a - such wiretapping has no foundation in fact and the FBI director has already said this didn't happen. And so, again, it is a distraction from the issue at hand. Let's get to the bottom of the Russian interference with our elections.

BLITZER: The FBI director, just to be precise, James Comey, hasn't issued a public statement yet. Just want to be precise, although CNN has confirmed that the FBI, as an organization, has asked the Justice Department to go ahead and refute what the president said in those tweets. As a matter of fact, he said, the president, President Obama, was - had ordered wiretapping of - of his campaign.

You're a member of the Judiciary Committee, one of several committees investigating Russia and the Trump campaign, what do you think these investigations and these allegations go from here?

HIRONO: I think the important thing is to have an independent investigation, and so a number of us have called for a special prosecutor in order to have that happen. And I would certainly support that effort. And the committees can do their own investigations, but it has to be independent. It should be bipartisan.

BLITZER: On another important issue, while I have you, senator, is, you know the president just signed a new travel ban, executive order. Among other things, it excludes Iraq from the list of Muslim majority countries affected by the ban. Was that the right decision?

HIRONO: Well, he made some small changes, apparently, to the very sweeping travel ban that he issued earlier. I haven't studied all of the provisions of it, but it's still basically a Muslim ban. It's still a ban based on one's religion. And every time our country has targeted a minority group for discriminatory treatment, we have been proven to be very, very wrong. And the president is wrong in this instance.

[13:20:26] BLITZER: What do you say to the Trump officials who argue most Muslims around the world are not affected by the ban. The largest Muslim country, for example, Indonesia. So many other large Muslim countries are not impacted. There are six Muslim majority countries that are impacted now. Not the original seven.

HIRONO: Well, isn't that still a Muslim ban? Isn't it still a ban based on one's religion? So whether you're doing it with one country or several, it's still a Muslim ban. And I believe it is wrong.

BLITZER: And so you think the courts will reject this one as well, I assume, right?

HIRONO: I think so.

BLITZER: Let's talk about another sensitive issue, especially for your home state of Hawaii. NATO is now calling North Korea's latest missile test especially provocative. The Trump administration issued a statement strongly condemning the missile launches. What more can realistically be done to deal with these latest provocations by North Korea?

HIRONO: Once again, North Korea has been a very unpredictable country for quite a while now, and their latest actions is a continuation of what they've been doing earlier over the years, and it just points out how important stability in the Indo-Asia Pacific area is. And I very much support a bipartisan efforts to shore up or strengthen our presence in this part of the world, the Indonesia Pacific area of the world, and I'm really glad that Secretary Mattis, in his first trip overseas after becoming secretary, went to Japan and South Korea to point out how important it is for our allies and us to be working together for stability and our national security in this part of the world.

BLITZER: Senator Mazie Hirono of Hawaii, thanks very much for joining us.

HIRONO: Thank you.

BLITZER: Coming up, operating out of an undisclosed bunker-like complex in Washington. The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court can approve the wiretapping of American citizens. We're going to take a closer look at the secretive FISA court and how it operates. That's next.

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[13:26:44] BLITZER: President Trump's unsupported claim that President Obama wiretapped his phones at Trump Tower in New York City back in October raises the question, can a president of the United States do that? Former officials from the Obama administration push back very hard. Among them, Ben Rhodes, who was deputy national security advisor for President Obama. He tweeted this @presidenttrump. Quote, "no president can order a wiretap. Those restrictions were put in place to protect citizens from people like you," end quote.

Let's bring in our senior legal analyst, former federal prosecutor Jeffrey Toobin, who's with us.

Jeff, those warrants would come from what's called the FISA court, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court. How does the FISA court work, and can a president order a warrant like this one?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, the FISA Court is unusual because we think of courts as, you know, with a plaintiff and a defendant or the government and a defendant. There's no adversary system in the FISA Court. Only the Department of Justice appears before the FISA Court.

And the way it works is, whenever the executive branch, which is headed by the president, but certainly it's based in the Department of Justice, determines that national security requires a wiretap, a bug, within the United States. they have to prepare a warrant with an affidavit, usually by an FBI agent, that says there is probable cause to believe that information - that there is a matter relating to the national security of the United States that requires this wiretap or this bug.

The court then evaluates whether they have shown adequately that there is probable cause to believe that this behavior has taken place, and only then can a warrant be issued and only then can a tap or a bug can be installed.

BLITZER: And as Ben Rhodes, the president's former deputy national security advisor - President Obama's deputy national security advisor, right when he says, "no president can order a wiretap"? TOOBIN: Yes, he is right. I mean a president, if he wants a wiretap,

has to ask his Department of Justice to go to the FISA Court and get a warrant. I've never heard of any president initiating this process. This is almost entirely - this is always, in my knowledge and experience, initiated by the law enforcement part of the government, whether it's the FBI, the DEA, the Justice Department itself. They're the ones who go to the court. But certainly the president can't, on his own initiative, just say, bug this person. It has to go through this court.

BLITZER: Can we see the filings, the warrants that are issued, the request for the FISA Court? Are any - is any of that ever made public?

[13:29:44] TOOBIN: There have been very rare circumstances where it has been made public, but they are almost always secret and remain secret. But it is one of the basic rules of classified information in this country that the president of the United States, on his own initiative, can declassify anything. So President Trump, if he is aware of a FISA warrant, a FISA application that involves him that he thinks is inappropriate, tomorrow he --