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Lawmakers Demand Evidence of Trump Wiretapping Claim; GOP Bracing for CBO Score on Health Care Overhaul. Aired 9-9:30

Aired March 13, 2017 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:00] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: And while we're on the subject of fantasies, counselor of the President Kellyanne Conway dropped a giant implication bomb, at a minimum, a rhetorical link between the President's claims and new CIA surveillance methods just revealed by WikiLeaks, again, evidence-free. Just a few minutes ago on CNN, Kellyanne Conway suggested that is not what she said or meant, even though it is what she said.

It is that kind of morning. Let's bring in CNN's Senior Washington Correspondent Joe Johns at the White House this morning.

Joe?

JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, John. The House Intel Committee wants to know if there is any there there, but there is certainly a lot of doubt and skepticism this morning across Washington as to whether the Justice Department is going to come up with anything responsive on their request for more information about the President's claim of President Obama's wiretapping, essentially.

The reason why, of course, is because there are a lot of people in Washington, even some past and current government officials, who said President Trump was incorrect at the very least, including a former Director of National Intelligence.

On the Senate side, Senator John McCain is skeptical as well. Let's listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: The President has one of two choices, either retract or to provide the information that the American people deserve because, if his predecessor violated the law, President Obama violated the law, we've got a serious issue here, to say the least.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JOHNS: A serious issue indeed. And if nothing else, today's deadline, certainly, will go to the credibility of the President and his tweet on the weekend a couple weeks ago. Back to you, John.

BERMAN: All right. Joe Johns at the White House. But wait, there is more. While we await evidence from the White House, the President's

counselor Kellyanne Conway is suggesting other ways that the campaign could have been kept under close watch. Who knew the President even had a microwave?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KELLYANNE CONWAY, SENIOR COUNSELOR TO PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: There are many ways to surveil each other now, unfortunately. There was --

MIKE KELLY, COLUMNIST, THE RECORD: Do you believe that was --

CONWAY: There was an article this week that talked about how you can surveil someone through their phones, certainly through their television sets, any number of different ways, microwaves that turn into cameras, et cetera. So we know that that is just a fact of modern life.

KELLY: Sure, sure.

CONWAY: What the President has asked is for the investigation into surveillance to be included in the ongoing investigation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: I want to bring in Mike Rogers. He's a CNN national security commentator, former chairman of the House Intelligence Committee.

Mr. Chairman, last week, you said you believe these wiretap claims from the President, again, evidence-free, are feeding the conspiracy parking meter. Well, Kellyanne Conway, did she just make like a Fort Knox-like deposit in that conspiracy theory parking meter?

MIKE ROGERS, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY COMMENTATOR: This all makes me scratch my head. They just bought themselves another week of this story that just seems an odd place for them to put their energy and interest.

You know, listen, when they have the Director of National Intelligence under Barack Obama for eight years, Director Clapper came out and said two important things. He said, one, there was no FISA warrant against the campaign or anyone at Trump Tower or anything like that, which is plausible to me only because there's a pretty high threshold. The government would have to go to a judge and convince them in the middle of a presidential campaign that they had probable cause to believe someone there was committing a crime. I just find that would be hard to swallow.

The second piece was that there was no collusion with the Russians. So the longer they talk about this, the more they're stretching out this story that just doesn't seem to be plausible.

What is plausible to me, the former FBI guy, is there may have been incidental collection of a wiretap somewhere. Meaning, they had a FISA warrant on someone else and a person at Trump Tower may have contacted them, maybe innocent, maybe no criminal intent whatsoever, but that contact would be registered in the way that they collect information and noting.

And that's the only thing I can think of right now where they could get confused about there might be a wiretap on Trump Tower or their phone. But again, I don't get this. I don't know why they don't just stop talking about this, let the investigation do its thing.

BERMAN: Let me play you how Kellyanne Conway explained or justified those comments. She was on "NEW DAY" just a few minutes ago. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CONWAY: I was answering a question about surveillance techniques generally. I was reflecting what people saw on the news last week.

I'm not Inspector Gadget. I don't believe people are using the microwave to spy on the Trump campaign. However, I'm not in the job of having evidence. That's what investigations are for.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[09:05:06] BERMAN: Now, she wasn't answering a question about surveillance. She was asked a question about the President's evidence-free claims about wiretapping on Trump Tower.

And, Chairman Rogers, you're answering the question, talking to me about it being politically inexpedient for Kellyanne Conway to be talking about this. It may be more than politically inexpedient if President Trump is making this stuff up, in charging the former president with a felony.

You worked in the intelligence committee for a long time. Does it shake the very foundations of the credibility, not just of the intelligence community, but also the office of the President?

ROGERS: Well, I mean, he certainly needs to get this corrected if, in fact, there is no criminal act there. And, you know, there's two possibilities in this -- well, three really.

But if he was right and the President had ordered some kind of surveillance, which I'm not sure how that would work -- you'd have a conspiracy line that would be a mile long of FBI agents and technical agents and all of the things that it would take -- I find that just not to be plausible.

Oh, the other thing is, there is a criminal warrant and/or a FISA warrant that was used to intercept something which means it went through a process, a due process, and some judge believed it was credible. I just don't know how either one of those are a good conversation for this President to be having right now.

BERMAN: No.

ROGERS: He needs to correct the record. I think it's wrong for a sitting president to accuse a former president -- I don't care what political stripe -- of a criminal activity. I just don't think that's right. He ought to correct it and move on, call it the new guy thing and get about the business of the day of America. And there's plenty of those issues to deal with.

BERMAN: Well, we'll see, yes, if, in fact, that happens. Your old committee, the House Intelligence Committee, has asked for evidence by today from the Department of Justice. Again, you know, you ran this committee. What happens if, by the end of today, that evidence isn't handed over?

ROGERS: Well, there's lots of ways that the Committee can actually get that information. You know, this contempt charge, you can do that. You can take it to the House floor. It's a longer process. Actually, Eric Holder was voted to be in contempt by Congress by withholding information.

The real way that the Intelligence Committee has power is by withholding funds. They can start drying up certain funds as a way to get compliance, and I imagine all of those things are being considered right now. Certainly, as chairman, that's where my head would be because I think it's a quicker way to get what they need.

The Department of Justice should absolutely cooperate with this investigation. There shouldn't be a delay, unless there's a legitimate reason they can't give it to you quite today. But they need to be up talking to the investigators on the committee to make sure that they're in compliance with what the committee needs to do.

It's important and it's a separate but equal branch. And the Department of Justice does not have the right not to comply with these kinds of investigations.

BERMAN: Barring a legitimate reason, whatever that might be, would the Department of Justice be in contempt if it does not turn over that evidence today?

ROGERS: Well, they can ask for a contempt, you know, to go through the House process. In order for them to be in contempt, there's two ways to do it. They would refer to the Justice Department -- you can kind of know where that one is going --

BERMAN: Right.

ROGERS: -- or you can take it to the House floor and have an official vote to hold the Attorney General in contempt, which, you know, just certainly would be kind of a big and ugly process. I hope it never gets that far. Again, they should just comply, both by courtesy and by law.

BERMAN: Chairman Mike Rogers, always great to have you with us. Thanks so much for your help on this.

ROGERS: Thanks, John.

BERMAN: All right. It's a jam-packed morning here. Any moment now, we could get the price tag of the Republican health care overhaul from the Congressional Budget Office. We're already seeing some prophylactic medicine here from Republican leaders saying that this anticipated important estimate should not be so anticipated or important. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. PAUL RYAN, SPEAKER OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES: The one thing I'm certain will happen is CBO will say, well, gosh, not as many people will get coverage. You know why? Because this isn't a government mandate.

MICK MULVANEY, DIRECTOR, WHITE HOUSE OFFICE OF MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET: Sometimes we ask them to do stuff they're not capable of doing, and estimating the impact of a bill of this size probably isn't the best use of their time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: It is exactly what the Congressional Budget Office does, though, however. CNN's Suzanne Malveaux joins us now live from Capitol Hill.

Suzanne.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, as you know, there's a big fight ahead and everybody is waiting for that CBO score. House Republicans are really trying, they're racing, to push this through Congress. I believe the CBO score is really going to slow down this process.

It is going to reveal the impact on the premiums. It's also going to reveal the cost and the estimate number of Americans who are impacted by this legislation. It is estimated, John, that it could be at least 15 million people over the course of 10 years who'll lose their health care insurance under this new plan.

Now, this is something that many Republicans are anticipating. They are trying to play it down, as you saw the House Speaker Paul Ryan. And there are also Senators who are weighing in, Republicans, who are panning that argument. One of them, Rand Paul, essentially saying President Trump as well as many of the House Republicans are not living up to their bargain.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[09:10:15] SEN. RAND PAUL (R), KENTUCKY: If we get what we've got from Ryan, ObamaCare Lite, he will not have the votes, and we have to get to that point before true negotiations begin. Right now, I think there's a charm offensive going on. Everybody's being nice to everybody because they want us to vote for this, but we're not going to vote for it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MALVEAUX: And, John, people are going to start taking off the gloves, everybody not so nice to each other. What Rand Paul and some others are expecting is that they possibly have an ally in President Trump in terms of negotiating at least on one point, and that is the speed of rolling back the Medicaid expansion.

Conservatives want that to happen faster than some of the moderates, and that is something that President Trump is very much aware of. Tomorrow is when he's going to be hosting a group, about 40-plus, of those House Republicans to the White House for a pizza and bowling party to try to woo them to figure out how they can work that out.

This is also something that the presidency is quite flexible tomorrow -- not tomorrow, but actually Wednesday. What's going to happen is the House Budget Committee is going to take a look at this bill and see what can be worked out and whether or not there is any point of negotiation as the President believes, John.

BERMAN: All right, Suzanne Malveaux for us. Ten minutes after 9:00 and we are waiting for those new CBO numbers. We'll come back to you if we get this them this hour. Thanks, Suzanne.

All right. There was a backlash this morning after a Republican congressman tweeted, "We cannot restore our civilization with somebody else's babies." What does that mean? Well, this morning, he responded.

Plus this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DMITRY PESKOV, PRESS SECRETARY FOR THE PRESIDENT OF RUSSIA: The fact that Russia is being demonized in that sense comes very strange to us, and we are really sorry about that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Russia says nothing to see here when it comes to charges of campaign spying, but Senator John McCain says there is a centipede on the loose with centipede shoes that will still drop. What does he mean by that exactly?

And who needs flowers and leaves and grass this spring? And by the way, what spring? Tens of millions of people on the path of a severe storm getting ready to hit the northeast.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KELLYANNE CONWAY, COUNSELOR TO THE PRESIDENT: I was answering a question about surveillance techniques generally. I was reflecting what people saw on the news last week. I'm not Inspector Gadget. I don't believe people are using the microwave to spy on the Trump campaign. However, I'm not in the job of having evidence. That's what investigations are for.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: She's not Inspector Gadget. Kellyanne Conway, counselor for the president explaining to Chris Cuomo just a few minutes ago why she suggested to an interview that what Wikileaks released last week about spying methods from the CIA including cameras and cell phones and microwaves and spying that way, why she linked that in the interview to the president's evidence-free claims that he was spied on by President Obama.

Joining me now, Julian Zelizer, Princeton University historian and professor, Rebecca Berg, CNN political analyst, national political reporter for Real Clear Politics, and Patrick Healy, CNN political analyst and deputy culture editor for "The New York Times."

Rebecca, I want to start with you. Kellyanne Conway said she was answering questions about surveillance techniques in general. Let me read you the question she was responding to, one of the things that seem to be dogging him this week are the allegations about wiretaps. Do you know whether Trump Tower was wiretapped?

That doesn't seem to be a question about microwaves. She brought up microwaves. Why do you think she was trying to drop that implication bomb?

REBECCA BERG, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: You know, it doesn't really make a lot of sense, John, from a strategic standpoint, there isn't a lot of incentive for Kellyanne Conway or anyone else in the Trump administration, at this point, to be bringing up this issue.

Because what it leads to really are further questions about Russia, about any ties about the Trump campaign or some of its allies might have had with Russia. It really doesn't do them a lot of good.

Mike Rogers earlier in your show this morning said a similar thing. Why are they raising this issue, this is going to be another week where we're talking about Russia and a potential investigation into the Trump campaign?

So it doesn't really make a lot of sense insomuch as this is potentially a strategy. The only reason that I can think that they would be bringing this up is to assign some sort of political motivation to anything that the intelligence community uncovers about the Trump administration or the Trump campaign.

But so far we don't know what the intelligence community will find, what the Senate Intel Committee will find in their investigation, and so it's really unclear why at this stage they continue to raise this issue while they are producing no evidence to back up their claims.

BERMAN: She didn't just introduce the wiretap issue to be fair. She was asked about wiretaps. What she introduced was the idea that perhaps there's at least at a minimum some rhetorical linkage between the president's evidence wiretap claims and then the Wikileaks dump last week about CIA surveillance methods.

Professor Zelizer, let me ask you, John McCain, a senator from Arizona, no fan of the Trump administration right now essentially said it's time to put up or shut up. Either provide the evidence or retract your claim.

Now again, we know John McCain is no big fan of the president. But how much of a problem is it if senior members of your own party, and McCain is chair of the Armed Services Committee, are starting to doubt you in public like this?

JULIAN ZELIZER, HISTORIAN AND PROFESSOR, PRINCETON UNIVERSITY: It's a big problem. The Trump administration has relied on one thing so far as a firewall, and that's the Republican Congress.

And when you have Republicans starting to come after the president and to raise these kinds of questions, either with the Russian investigation, but more immediately with this wiretap accusation that the president has made, it could be a problem.

Because McCain and other Republicans actually have clout on Capitol Hill, unlike the Democrats. They can launch investigations. They can create pressure on the administration. That's why this raises a lot of red flags for the White House.

[09:20:04]BERMAN: So Pat Healy, I want to come to you. Roger Stone, a long-time Republican political operative who over the weekend admitted to a Twitter exchange with Guccifer 2.0, the hacker who claims he broke into the DNC last year. Roger Stone also had been bragging about a back channel with Wikileaks overtime.

That happened. Roger Stone doesn't dispute either of these things. I want you to explain to our audience exactly what Roger Stone's connection is to Donald Trump.

PATRICK HEALY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Sure. It's a major connection. Roger Stone goes back in politics to President Nixon's 1972 re- election campaign. He's the kind of Republican consultant who learned not only the details, but also the value of kind of the dark arts of politics, how you're not just effective when you're sitting at a table negotiating policy, but you're maneuvering behind the scenes to try to advance your president or principal's agenda.

By that I mean during the 2016 campaign, Roger Stone was someone who was involved and quoted in the "National Enquirer's" reports about Ted Cruz's father and whether Ted Cruz's father had played some kind of a role during the JFK assassination.

Roger Stone was someone who organized very aggressively against Republicans who might be stealing the nomination from then Donald Trump, Candidate Trump. In this case, John, he basically has now admitted he's become sort of the first person to be linked between Guccifer and Wikileaks and Donald Trump.

This is a guy who has been an off-and-on adviser to Donald Trump for decades. He's someone who, even when he's been formally let go or expelled from Donald Trump's inner circle, is still someone who talks to Donald Trump, certainly did during the campaign. It's someone who very much has a lot of history with the president.

BERMAN: To be clear, Stone claims there was no collusion, no proof of collusion between Roger Stone right now and any Russians or hackers over the hacking and the dumps during the campaign. But there is the contact which you can bet Democrats will want to look into.

I want to shift topics right now because Congressman Steve King of Iowa raised a lot of eyebrows over the weekend when he tweeted, "Wilders understands that culture and demographics are our destiny. We can't restore our civilization with somebody else's babies."

Now Wilders is a politician in the Netherlands running for office. What caught our eye, demographics are our destiny. We can't restore our civilization with somebody else's babies. Do we have the sound of him responding on NEW DAY? All right, let's play what he told Chris Cuomo about this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPRESENTATIVE STEVE KING (R), IOWA: I've said the same thing as far as ten years ago to the German people and any population of people that is a declining population that doesn't -- isn't willing to have enough babies to row produce themselves. I've said to them, you cannot rebuild your civilization with somebody else's babies.

You have to keep your birth rate up and you need to teach your children your values. In doing so, you can grow your population and strengthen your culture, strengthen your way of life. That's a clear message that we need to get our birth rates up or Europe will be entirely transformed within a half century or a little more.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: You know, it was interesting, Rebecca, when Chris Cuomo pressed him whether a Muslim-American is as American as a German- American, Steve King sort of paused and didn't seem to answer that question at least directly. This appears to be Steve King talking. I don't think he speaks for one party or another, but it is alarming to a lot of people to hear an elected leader talk like this.

BERG: It is. That's exactly why, John, you've seen some Republicans since Steve King initially tweeted this, seen Republicans coming out, some of his colleagues in Congress and saying we completely reject this argument and condemn this argument.

Congressman Carlos Curbelo was one of the first. You really don't see support in the party for this sort of idea. So for now it really is just Steve King talking, but you have heard similar ideas in the past from Steve Bannon, the president's chief strategist, from Stephen Miller, his senior policy adviser.

And so there is this idea that there might be some support in the administration for these ideas, maybe not quite as intense or extreme as what Steve King expressed. Certainly we are seeing a rise of this sort of sentiment in Europe with Marine Le Pen, Wilders, and I think that is significant. It may not be the last we hear of this sort of sentiment.

BERMAN: All right, Professor Zelizer, Rebecca Berg, Patrick Healy, great to have you with us this morning. Thanks so much.

The news site once run by the president's chief strategist, suggested the president's chief architect of health care reform just committed the lie of the year. So what did he say and what are the implications of this? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:29:21]

BERMAN: All right, this morning dissension in the conservative ranks, Breitbart is calling this a contender for the lie of the year.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOM PRICE, HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES SECRETARY: I firmly believe that nobody will be worse off financially in the process that we're going through, understanding that they'll have choices that they can select the kind of coverage that they want for themselves and for their family, not the government forces them to buy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: No one will be worst off financially and again when Breitbart calls it a contender for a lie of the year, remember Breitbart is a site that was run by Steve Bannon. Now the president's chief strategist wrap your head around that.

This as we wait for the report from the Congressional Budget Office on the price tag of the new Republican bill. Joining us, Austan Goolsbee, professor of economics at University of Chicago. He's also a former chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers under President Obama, and Stephen Moore, CNN senior economic analyst and distinguished visiting fellow at the Heritage Foundation.