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Airline Electronics Cabin Ban; EU Calls First Brexit Strategy Meeting; Inside Europol's Fight Against Cyber-Crime; Trump Supreme Court Pick Defends Record

Aired March 21, 2017 - 17:00:00   ET


[17:00:00] PAULA NEWTON, CNN ANCHOR: Fear has returned to the market. This was the scene of the Dow as it closed out its worst day of the year.

It's Tuesday, March 21st.

Europe calls its first Brexit strategy meeting. We'll hear from the chief Brexit negotiator and with elections around the world under cyber threat,

we'll take you to the front lines of the EU's war against hackers. This is QUEST MEANS BUSINESS.

Tonight, we're learning new details about the reasons behind the ban on electronic devices in aircraft cabins. The U.S. and U.K. imposed the

restrictions for much of the Middle East and North Africa. They had been perfecting techniques to hide explosives in batteries and compartments of

batteries. They will comply but have not commented publicly. They have 96 hours to comply. That's any time between now and Saturday at 3:00 a.m.

eastern time. Tonight, an aviation official insisted to CNN the cabin ban was not a political move. I want to show you how these restrictions differ

between the U.K. and the U.S. and we're scratching our heads to figure out why they differ but here they go. The countries affected include Morocco,

Egypt, Jordan, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and the UAE. Flights from Lebanon and Tunisia will be affected. Samuel Burke is at Heathrow airport.

In terms of the nuts and bolts of this or maybe we should say the iPads and laptops, how chaotic will this be and what kind of an impact will it have?

SAMUEL BURKE, CNN MONEY BUSINESS AND TECHNOLOGY CORRESPONDENT: This is going to be a sea change for travelers just the way it was when officers

said you couldn't bring liquids top to the airport. There was a pig change there. I think what's interesting here, I want to pick up on something to

use that about the politics. The fact the U.K. has confirmed that they will do the same thing. I think it gives the U.S. a little more cover for

those people who have questions about whether this was political or not. What was interesting is even though we know from a government source that

Theresa May has been seeing the same information, she's been in touch with U.S. over the past few weeks about security that they came to such

different conclusions. You have some countries that aren't on the U.K. list that are on the U.S. list. You have other countries that are added

like Tunisia and Lebanon. I think that's going to add to the confusion. They are worried that people won't know that you can take your devices as

long as they are bigger than a smartphone to those countries coming back to the U.K. or U.S. given there are differences it does add to what some feel

will be chaos in the airports.

NEWTON: And doesn't get to the reason of what is the threat. What is the risk and why are they so much better off in the hold than in the cabin?

[17:05:00] BURKE: This has left a lot of technology experts scratching their heads. They are the companies behind these devices that will have to

go in the pull he of the airplanes now. What they are fearing is this is a public band aid for a much bigger problem. When we talk about these

devices, many experts that I was speaking with today, a lot of Israeli companies that specialize in these say they think this could be more of a

problem if god forbid there's an explosion and could happen with a timer or detonated remotely. They think it could be more difficult to extinguish in

the belly rather than in the cabin. Over and over I heard Israelis telling me they have such a focus on security, you want to do things the way the

airlines do to make people turn on the devices to make sure they are going in the cabin or the belly. They want more sniffing devices. They think

that would make things much manufacture sure fire. You put those little sticks there. They say that's the surefire way of doing this.

NEWTON: OK. Mohammed Lila is at the center of this, he is in Dubai, in terms of the reaction from the region, of course, may airlines are saying

they will comply or they won't be able to fly into the United States. In terms of being able to implement this what are they saying?

MOHAMMED LILA; CNN CORRESPONDENT: This is a big question mark. We know they have this 96-hour grace period. You mentioned that they don't have

any choice. That's right. If they want to continue flying to the United States and operating those direct flights they have no choice but to

implement the regulations. The big question is we're talking about some of the busiest and biggest airports in the world. Istanbul's airport or

Dubai. You'll have a lot of people who don't know this regulation has come into effect over the next few days. They will show up to the airport

thinking everything is fine as a lot of travelers do with their laptops in the bag expecting to go on to the plane with the laptop. How long will it

take for this education process to kick in where people are understanding when they get to the airport that the laptop has to be checked in. When

we're talking about airlines, every delay of 15 minutes, half an hour generally means lost revenue for that airline. We're dealing with

situation now where we might start seeing lengthy delays because airline check in staff have to convince travelers to check their laptop. Something

many are unwilling to do because of the security and privacy risks that poses.

NEWTON: Absolutely. It's going to take a while to implement this. That's not beginning to look into things like medical devices that will still be

allowed on.

The chief executive of Qantas says all airlines rely on governments to update them on these threats. I spoke to Alan Joyce earlier at the New

York Stock Exchange. Now we have to say Qantas is not affected by any of these new rules. But of course, things are updated every week, every

month. He said it was important for airlines to take that government advice.


ALAN JOYCE, CEO, QANTAS: We're always depending on the government to tell what you say the risk assessment is. What they think is safe. What isn't

safe. We work very closely. It's very important for airlines to take that input, use that input to make sure at tend of the day that the number one

thing we have to do is ensure that our customers are safe and secure. That's the most important thing.

NEWTON: When you look at the directive, does it seem peculiar to you? They talk about not wanting electronics like that in the hold.

JOYCE: You have to look at the risk. The government says you don't want it in the cabins. There's a form of risk there. At the same time we know

they've had issues in the past and risk having them in the hold. I think every airline will have to make sure it understands what the consequences

may be of something like this is and ensure they are minimized.


NEWTON: Interesting. You'll hear more from Alan later this hour. He'll be talking about criticism he received with the issue of same-sex marriage.

With so many electronic devices affected, let's look at what devices are included. It's unfortunately, anything electronic bigger than a


[17:10:00] That includes laptops, cameras, gaming devices. Anything that will keep your kids diverted. Medical devices will still be allowed in the

cabin but that's after the proper security screening. We want to bring in Juliette Kayyem, she served as assistant secretary of the Department of

Homeland Security. She is a CNN national security analyst, Juliette, so happy to talk to you about this, and I am so curious as to what your

reaction was -- the divergence between the U.S. and the U.K. but also what are they seeing in the intelligence that is telling them, yes, this was the

proper move?


been a recurring intelligence stream regarding fears of detonating a laptop or iPad. That's nothing new. That's in the public literature. What no

one can tell me and your reporters have no data on this is why today. Why in this 72-hour period. That gets to the next challenge of implementing

this. This is major change. In the last seven minutes you talked about the economic impact that these airports serve as hubs from the east to the

west. A lot of these countries are dependent on this commerce.

It was done in the not most transparent way. Not just for the airlines but all the travelers. Some of the questions that the airlines can't seem to

answer is a result of United States seeming to not have any narrative of how this is going to get done. What is generating this change at this

moment. When we did the liquid ban, that was because someone tried to detonate at that moment. It was a response. We did the shoes after the

shoe bomber. That's not true in this case. It is -- both on the process side but on the sort of the why side, I think that there's still a lot of

fair questions out there.

NEWTON: It's interesting. General Kelly, the Homeland Security Secretary here has been on the phone on the last few hours. There's other allies

considering having the same kind of ban. He's clearly seeing something. He was in Canada earlier this month. In an interview, he said "There's

dozens of plots going on all the time." He's referring specifically to aviation. He called it would be like the super bowl, the playoffs, that is

what the terrorists want. What specifically is it about batteries? Of course, not in phones but we are talking about in the laptops and in the


KAYYEM: I think that's the challenge right now. Your experts, the Israelis and others who have been interviewed by your reporters, it's not

entirely clear why a detonation, part of this is detonating the lit yum battery. Having a trigger between the phone and the laptop that detonated

it. It's not entirely clear why it's safer. That triggering can occur even if the laptop is eight feet away underneath the airport. There is a

persistent threat of airline travel. The idea there are hundreds of threats is nothing new since 9/11 that aviation is the number one target

because it would humiliate the west. Everything we have done to protect yourself can be undermined. There's a lot of security because of that.

The challenge for the narrative is why this right now? If you can't tell the specifics, then why couldn't the implementation been done in way so

many travelers won't be impacted so soon.

NEWTON: Through no fault of their own. We will continue to follow this. Appreciate your analysis.

U.S. markets have suffered their worst day of the year so far. I said it. You knew this was coming. The Dow loss just got worse as the day went on.

It finished 238 points lower. The swing was almost 300 points. That's the worst drop since the election in November. The NASDAQ started the day at a

record and finished almost 2 percent lower. Tim Anderson is manager director at TJM Investments. You have a bit of time. OK. Why?

[17:15:00] TIM ANDERSON, MANAGER DIRECTOR, TJM INVESTMENTS: There was a number of things hit the market today. There was some data out very early

this morning from allies bank which is the benchmark for auto loans and leases. Talking about residual lease values that would put a fair amount

of pressure on used car values. People have talked for the better part of the last year, year and a half about potentially subprime issues in the car

loan market. - really hasn't got a lot of attention. Then you had a lot of pressure on used car, rental car companies and the autos. You were

mentioning some issues in the transportation sector with the airlines earlier. The truckers were also hit fairly hard. Oil, which traded below

$50 through the first time since November in the last ten days. Tried to rally back above 50. Couldn't hold it. Hovering around the $48 value now.

NEWTON: You know the question is going to be, the Trump rally. Is this just a hold, a breather and we'll see what he can get done in Washington

and in other places or is this more about the fundamentals as you just mentioned people saying in the United States retail, cars, housing peaked.

We need to move on from this and we don't know where to go.

ANDERSON: I think you have concern it's going to take a lot longer for him to get a good portion of his legislative agenda passed. We'll see exactly

where we go with that. I think you'll probably get a version of the health care bill passed either on Thursday or maybe early next week. Then they'll

go onto tax reform and possibly a stimulus program beyond that.

NEWTON: Quickly, the markets are really watching for that. Do you think that propel them until a certain direction if he can get health care done

then tax reform is next up?

ANDERSON: That's their timetable, there's no doubt about it. Clearly the market had very aggressive expectations about pow beneficial this could be

for equity investors. We had a strong move after the election. Very strong move the beginning of the year and a little bit of a pause. This is

the first real sell off we've had. The banks were also hit hard. It's interesting because the yield curve has actually flattened since the

beginning of the year where a lot of people expected it would steepen. There's a number of factors involved in that dynamic. We'll have to see

how that plays out.

NEWTON: Definitely, as you can see there an inflection point today. Thank you for being here with us.

The European Union is preparing for Brexit. I will hear from Guy Verhofstadt, the European Parliament's chief Brexit negotiator and Alex

Salmon, the former first minister of Scotland. He didn't want Brexit and he doesn't want the United Kingdom to stay united.


NEWTON: European Union set its first day to plot out the Brexit strategy. The president of the European Council, Donald Tusk, said it will meet on

April 29. Every member country will attend except the United Kingdom. He wants as smooth a Brexit divorce as possible.


DONALD TUSK, PRESIDENT OF THE EUROPEAN COUNCIL: We must do everything we can to make the process of divorce the least

painful. Our main priority for the negotiations must be to create a smart certainty and clarity as possible for all citizens, companies and member

states that will be negatively affected by Brexit.


NEWTON: Earlier I spoke to the European Parliament chief Brexit negotiator. He spoke about offering "associate European citizenship" to

Britain after Brexit. I asked how this is possible if the EU is planning to negotiate a tough departure for Britain?


GUY VERHOFSTADT, EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT CHIEF BREXIT NEGOTIATOR: I'm not on the line. I'm on the line we have to make a clear separation between the

U.K. and U.K. government and it's obvious we cannot offer a better deal outside European than inside European Union. I think it's separate from

another issue that is the problem of the individual U.K. citizens. The interest of this individual use citizens is for me very important. I make

a separation between this problem and the official position of the U.K. and U.K. government. I'm effectively working for the interest of individual EU

citizens living in Britain and at the same time for the interest of U.K. citizens who want to keep a relationship with the European Union. What I

receive are emotional letters and emails saying, I have a European identity. I want not to lose my European identity. I think we have to

respond positively to this several hundreds of thousands of U.K. citizens who are requesting that

NEWTON: It will be very interesting how you will work out that when it comes down to the details. You know one thing that's glaring for many

people who say the European Union is failed experiment. You have people like Donald Trump piling on. You're dealing with tense electoral

situations in both France and Germany. What do you say to people that Europe is really on the brink of basically collapsing?

VERHOFSTADT: We see pro-European forces are gaining again. It was the pro-European parties won a lot of seats. Tens and tens of seats in these

Dutch elections. We see like France and Germany. The pro-European forces are gaining ground. There is an enormous gain of support in the public

opinion in Germany, in France, in Belgium for the European Union. It's not because we have the festivities of 60 years of the anniversary. What we

feel is people say we are very critical towards the European Union but we will not do as Britain. It's to leave the European Union. We see in a

number of Scandinavian countries that the level to exit the union has fallen dramatically. 2017 can be a turning point in support for the

European Union.


NEWTON: Scottish foreign minister Nicola Sturgeon is formerly asking her parliament for a new referendum on membership in the United Kingdom. The

crux of the argument is that Britain will get a bad deal with everything is done. Sturgeon says Scotland has given the British government every chance

to try and avoid this day.


NICOLA STURGEON, SCOTTISH FIRST MINISTER: In the past two years or so, the Scottish government has made a number of proposals designed to protect

Scotland from the impact of Brexit. It's important to note had any one of these proposals had been accepted by the U.K. government we would not be

having this debate today.


[17:25:00] NEWTON: You heard her so if there is to be another vote, what might an independent Scotland look like. Oil from the North Sea was

crucial to supporting Scotland's economy outside of the U.K. At least initially, it is not something you can take off the table. First Minister

Nicola Sturgeon says even after independence, Scotland would keep the pound, yes, I will say that again, Scotland will keep the pound.

Scotland's first referendum for independence was the life's work of Alex Salmon, when it failed he resigned as the S&P leader and Scottish first

minister, Alex Salmon joins me now from London. You will allow me to call you, you have may have resigned you are still crucial to this debate. You

want to be, I will say to you with all due respect that you provoke on this issue, so provoke yet again, I will provoke you. I fail to see why and how

an independence, some kind of referendum on independence is in Scotland's best interest now.

ALEX SALMON, FORMER SCOTTISH FIRST MINISTER: If Scotland were independent with oil at $50 a barrel, it will be the 15th, 1-5, most prosperous country

in the world, GDP per head. Obviously, if you're 15th most prosperous, you can be independent. Secondly, we will get to look at the deal. Nicola

Sturgeon is not proposing a referendum now, she's proposing one in about two years' time when the Brexit deal comes back from Europe according to

their timetable and that can then be compared with the perspective of an independent Scotland within a European context. How's that?

NEWTON: You know that even if you have a look at the particulars that doesn't mean you'll know what Brexit will look like. Why not wait because

at the end of the day you want people in Scotland to be better off, not worse off.

SALMON: We want them to be better off. You will know because the house of commons has been promised a vote. If all of these people and all of these

parliaments can make a decision, so can the people of Scotland.

NEWTON: Getting to the economics of it. We know where your heart is on this issue but when you look at the economics can you really say to people

in Scotland, we might as well stay in Europe. That's where economic future lies?

SALMON: Yes, I can. I talk with my heart but I talk with my head. Population, we have the need to grow the population of Scotland. We need

more people of Scotland but for trade. You've got to trade. The idea of taking a Scotland out of a 600 million domestic market across the European

Union and beyond makes no sense. We want to stay within the huge trading market. Trade is one of the things that makes the country prosperous.

NEWTON: On Theresa May and her stand to all of this, you have suggested it doesn't really matter. Scotland will hold the referendum on its own on its

own timetable. You say she's a good negotiator. She's negotiating in Scotland's best interest.

SALMON: Tough lady. I've had prime ministers tell me there's not going to be a referendum in Scotland. At some point, not next week, maybe not the

week after, but over the few months may will see the pressure from Scotland building and will have to concede Scotland's right to decide. You cannot

stand against a nation's right of self-determination. The days where a British prime minister could stand against it, these were the days of

empire and these days are over.

[17:00:00] NEWTON: Understood and heard, one final thing, the case for Europe has been made on this show. People say the European project is

crumbling. Why even join them? Perhaps independent Scotland standing on their own is the best way to go.

SALMON: I think rumors of the demise led by people in the White House have been much exaggerated. To have the achievements of the European Union

which has given us help to peace, to fling that away is nonsense. Scotland wants to get on.

NEWTON: OK. The former first minister of Scotland.

Turning to U.S. politics. It's the biggest job interview of Neil Gorsuch's life. He is insisting he can and will stand up to big corporations.


NEWTON: Hello, I'm Paula Newton. There's more of "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" in just a moment. The CEO of Qantas says he will continue to campaign on

social issues. We'll take you to the front lines of the EU's war against hackers.

First, the headlines this hour. The U.S. president is trying to whip up support for his health care bill that will repeal and replace Obamacare.

Many of them will lose big in the next election if they don't get on board. This is the new administration's first big piece of legislation and will be

a real blow to the White House if it fails. The vote is Thursday.

French interior minister has suddenly resigned. It came hours after prosecutors announced he would be investigated for hiring his teenage

daughters as parliamentary aides. He insists the jobs were real.

Martin McGinnis has died. He became the chief negotiator in talks that lead to peace deal in Northern Ireland. He was 66 years old.

Peruvians are beginning the cleanup process after mudslide vs destroyed parts of the country. The heavy rains are expected to continue through

April. 75 people are dead and 20 missing due to the devastating weather conditions. Peru is dealing with some of the worst rains the country has

seen in decades.

Paul Manafort stepped down as Trump's campaign chair back in August but he has never been far from the headlines ever since. Manafort is facing

questioning over his links to the Ukraine's former president, the pro- Russian Victor Yanukovych. Officials in the Ukraine are looking into whether he received illegal payments. Now, one Ukraine lawmaker says he

has the paper work that might prove Manafort tried to hide the payments. We have been digging into this story. What more can you tell us?

ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: This was a document that was found last year but it only recently found its way to the Ukraine

lawmaker who unveiled this document. We wanted to get a closer look. We sat down with him. He kind of walked us through the investigation but it

also allowed us to get a closer look at the document and try to scrutinize and verify what we could for ourselves. Take a look.


SHUBERT: Sergi Leshchenko, is a Ukrainian journalist turned lawmaker who staked his career on fighting corruption. He takes us for a quick drive

through Kiev to show us where this man used work, Paul Manafort, now under scrutiny. This is where potentially crucial bid of evidence was found. A

suspicious invoice that appears to be personally signed by Paul Manafort. He worked in Ukraine for years advising former president, a leader backed

by Russian president Vladmir Putin. Deeply unpopular for his ramp in corruption that he was chased out of his palace and into exile in Russia.

Angry protesters set fire to his party headquarters in 2014 but not before a group of citizens saved a document inside including a handwritten list of

names. Manafort's name is written 27 times for $12.7 million. Manafort said allegations of corruption were unfounded, silly and nonsensical.

He said I have never received a single off the books cash payment. We now have this. An invoice that appears to be personally signed by Paul

Manafort stamped with the Ukraine company registration number. It's an exact match to a Manafort entry on the black ledger. CNN has not been able

to verify the authenticity of the document. We asked Paul Manafort to verify the document. His spokesman said the allegations were baseless and

said Paul Manafort does not recognize the documents and that is not his signature. We compared the scan signature pages to department of justice

documents filed and signed by Manafort now available online.

SERGI LESHCHENKO, UKRAINIAN LAWMAKER: This is the first time we have the signature in the Ukrainian side of his story.

SHUBERT: The invoice show 501 units of computer equipment sold by Manafort to a Neocom systems. A Belize registered shell company with a bank account

listed in Kyrgyzstan. Leschenko says the document was found last year in a locked safe by a cleaning crew inside the former offices of Davis Manafort.

LESCHENKO: Looked like Manafort wasn't a political consultant, a trader of computer processors -- I'm sure it's fake invoice, fake contract just to

establish legal basis for transaction.

SHUBERT: Do you think this is money laundering?

LESCHENKO: I believe it has to be investigated. It looks like money laundering and wire fraud.

SHUBERT: Has the FBI contacted you about this?

LESCHENKO: I cannot tell you. No comment.


[17:40:00] SHUBERT: We asked if the FBI now has the copy of this document. He would not comment but the paper trail provides evidence that must be


As we outside the former Davis Manafort offices Leschenko described the document as an artifact of corruption. He would not be drawn on commenting

on any FBI investigation. He believes this is a crucial piece of evidence for investigators to follow.

NEWTON: After yesterday's hearing where we have confirmed from the FBI this is an investigation.

Donald Trump's pick for the vacant seat on the U.S. Supreme Court has been defending his track record. It sometimes got hostile. Neil Gorsuch

insisted there was no such thing as a Republican judge and Democratic judge and how he would have no problem ruling against the president's wishes. He

said he would have walked out the door if president Trump asked him to overturn abortion ruling. He insisted he had stood up for the little guy.


NEIL GORSUCH, SUPREME COURT NOMINEE: When I sit on the bench and someone comes to argue before me, I treat each one of them equally. They don't

come as rich or poor, big guy or little guy. They come as a person.


NEWTON: CNN's legal analyst is joining me from Washington. You have been watching these hearings. It was striking while when he had been composed

but has been a bit combative. He was asked can you hold the president accountable. The answer was no man is above the law. Do you get a sense

that on both sides, Democratic and Republican, that they are basically hearing what they want to from this man?

LAURA COATES, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I think yes and no. On the one hand I think everyone finds him to be a likable person. He has a lot of great

sound bites to talk about him being this even handed, fair judge. On the other hand when it comes to defending his record or giving nuance or

specific responses to justify his rulings on issues that are controversial here in the United States including abortion rights, including campaign

financing, including immigration and travel bans based on religion bases. He was close to the vest. Democrats, in particular, had an issue with his

answers. They found it to be a little bit, not that he was trying to hide the ball but his answer that worked in the morning what he played a very

man who was very likable was less gratuitous as the afternoon went on.

NEWTON: When you look at the Supreme Court composition, the Supreme Court reflects a very divided American electorate. When you see the character of

this man under this questioning, do you think the Democrats will say we're going to hold our fire because this man, at the end of the day, perhaps

will be the best we're going to get as a compromise on the bench.

COATES: The egos of the congressmen were strong. They had in their mind Obama was entitled to nominate Merrick Garland. He never got a hearing let

alone a confirmation process. There's an ego with respect to that power play taken by the Republican party. The supreme court is left with a

conservative vacancy. You're not entitled to have a vacancy but because Scalia has passed away. It will make it run u return to the status quo.

In that respect on issues of abortion rights, issues of same-sex marriage where Scalia was in place those measured passed and survived. Democrats

are cognizant of that. They show know giving the aging judiciary, there may be another vacancy. This may be the time to hold their fire. They

want to know who they are getting.

NEWTON: He's been a bit brittle during the questioning. Appreciate it.

COATES: Thank you.

NEWTON: Now when the CEO of Qantas asked the Australian government to take issue on same-sex marriage, one minister hold him to stick to his knitting.

He tells me why he's not backing down.


NEWTON: The CEO of Qantas says he will continue to talk about issues. 30 of Australia's biggest companies have called on the government to take

action on same-sex marriage. Now Australia's immigration minister said it was unacceptable for companies to try and, his word, bully the government

calling out the Qantas boss by name.


PETER DUTTON, AUSTRALIAN IMMIGRATION MINISTER: I prefer for the companies to stick to their knitting. That is delivery

the services for their customers and providing return to share shareholders. Mr. Joyce is an exceptional CEO. He's a good person. I

know him personally. I have no gripe against him. If he has a particular view on any issue, it should be expressed as an individual.


NEWTON: All right. Now for the counterpunch. Alan Joyce says he believes Qantas has to represent all Australians. He says companies have a moral

case and business case for engaging on the issues.


ALAN JOYCE, CEO, QANTAS: We believe that corporations and the CEOs of the corporation should be involved in the economic and social issues. After

all, we're a company that is not only an economic entity. We have a big social impact on what we're involved in the community. Our brand is called

the Spirit of Australia. Everybody having equal opportunities. That means we have to stand for the social rights and whether it's indigenous

community or marriage equality. I think there's a business case. Shareholders, a lot of shareholders are looking for companies that have

good social responsibility. Consumers are becoming more impacted looking at companies they feel represent them. 80 percent of them will select the

company. As a consumer and we know a survey in Australia sent out the LBGT community, the indigenous community and disabled people are likely to avoid

a company or product that discriminates against them. There's a strong case, even if there wasn't a moral case for companies to be involved.

[17:50:00] NEWTON: How do you feel about the political pushback if someone says stick to your knitting. It's none of your business to get involved in

these social issues and we have to say some social issues that some people feel strongly about.

JOYCE: What we clearly live in is a democracy. You should be respectable to listen to those voices. It's good to have a debate. That's the society

we're looking at. We should be encouraging that. That's one voice criticizing of speaking out. I've had a number of ministers in Australia

and massive support from the general public saying this is the right thing to do.

NEWTON: Did you hear more voices disagreed with him?

JOYCE: Absolutely. There's been a number of ministers say they disagreed with that and of course CEO should have voice. We've been asked by the

government to come out on issues and tax issues, which I have. It's right for us to be involved in social issues as well. Good companies should be

involved in the peck strum of activity. We have one of the strongest brands in Australia and one of the strongest brands in the world. We

always do the right thing.


NEWTON: Not backing down. NATO and the EU are rebuffing thousands of cyber-attacks that aim to undermine western democracy. We'll hear from the

head of cyber-crime at Europol when we return.


NEWTON: The kremlin says it's tired of accusations that it committed cyber espionage during the U.S. election. That was its reaction after on Monday

the FBI announced that it is investigating the possible links between the Trump campaign and the Russian government. Now European elections are also

a prime target for cyber threats. Experts say European constitution institutions are facing an unprecedented level of online attacks. We spoke

to the head of cyber-crime.

NINA DOS SANTOS, CNN MONEY EUROPE EDITOR: Deep inside one of Europe's most secure buildings, agents at Europol are tracking the digital footprint of

the world's most dangerous hackers. CNN has been given a rare insight into the fight against elicit online activity. But there are limits to what and

who we can film. As the head of the agency's cyber-crime center explains.


[17:55:00] UNIDENTIFIED CYBER-CRIME TECH: This is where we have staff from 15 different countries all working together. Because of the need of the

investigation they going in there I can't take you in.

DOS SANTOS: Secrecy is paramount. Cutting edge technology just as crucial from forensic labs to mining data from hardware to signal blocking rooms

used to extract the most infectious computer viruses. UNIDENTIFIED CYBER-CRIME TECH: Many of the member states don't have the

ability to actually do something like this.

DOS SANTOS: With key elections in some of those states this year, online espionage and extortion has increased thanks to the availability of hackers

for hire.

UNIDENTIFIED CYBER-CRIME TECH: It is top end, things that have never been seen before. And are unknown to the security companies. The use of these

types of tactics is difficult to detect.

DOS SANTOS: The trend has sent Europol cyber-investigations soaring 200 percent since 2013.

ROB WAINWRIGHT, DIRECTOR, EUROPOL: I think cyber-crime is probably or longest term enduring security challenge that we face in Europe. I think

it's a concern for our Western democracies, that is evident. What we are seeing however is cyber-criminal infrastructure on line that is supporting

state sponsored attacks and large scale cyber-criminal activity in very similar ways.

DOS SANTOS: The prime suspect Russia which Germany says probably infiltrated its parliament's computers in 2015. Among the targets is NATO,

which is facing 500 attempted breaches a month. Russia has denied it's behind the attacks but the EU is on high alert.

JULIAN KING, EU SECURITY COMMISSIONER: We have seen an increase of about 20 percent in the attacks against the commission. Sometimes I think they

are seeking to extract information. There are also attacks designed to put a question mark over the correction functioning of the commission in this

case or other institutions that have been attacked elsewhere across the European Union.

DOS SANTOS: For those delving into the web's darkest side, they are finding a world where the front line is no longer physical and the armies

are online. Nina Dos Santos, CNN.

NEWTON: Now before we go, a final check of those markets. It happened. The Dow suffered its biggest drop. It closed down 237 points. Banking

stocks were among the hardest hit as people weigh whether or not this Trump rally can last. It did not last today. That's QUEST MEANS BUSINESS. The

news continues right here on CNN.