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Haley Bashes Iran, Russia as Pentagon Investigating Russian Involvement in Chemical Attack; Sean Spicer Gives Time Line Details of Missile Attack on Syria; Trump Informs Chinese President of Syria Strike After Dinner. Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired April 07, 2017 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:30:00] WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: This comes after Barbara Starr's reporting that the Pentagon is now investigating possible Russian involvement in that initial chemical attack that killed so many civilians, including kids.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Ambassador Haley also held out the prospect of further military action. She said if we're not satisfied, they're keeping that option on the table. It was a few days ago that Nikki Haley somewhat telegraphed this action, said when the international community fails, the U.S. may have to act alone, and the U.S. acted alone last night. I think that's important putting Russia and Syria and others on notice.

The other point I would make is the Syrian position you heard there, the Russian position before, that it's not clear who carried out this attack or what kind of attack it was, is just frankly laughable. Because they know that the U.S. has the capabilities and has said that they did. They tracked the planes from that airstrip over that target. They have infrared sensors, satellites that could track the explosions when the bombs dropped out. And we know, based on Barbara's reporting, that it was a Russian-made plane came back five hours later and dropped another bomb, which is raising the question whether the Russians were complicit in trying to destroy the evidence. The idea that this is an open question as to what happened, not to mention Turkish doctors are doing autopsies on the victims and finding traces of sarin gas, et cetera, it's pretty incontrovertible this was a chemical weapons attack. The U.S. has the assets to determine who carried it out. So that's just a --

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: John Kirby, the U.S. Ambassador Nikki Haley also said, six years into the war, 400,000, maybe half a million people have been killed, Syrians, mostly civilians, millions more made homeless. The days are over for the U.S. to wait for some sort of diplomatic solution, especially when chemical weapons are used.

JOHN KIRBY, CNN MILITARY DIPLOMATIC ANALYST: That conveys to me this wasn't a one off. When we heard Secretary Tillerson last night talk, he left that impression. There's no change to our policy in Syria. This will be a retaliatory strike for a chemical attack by the Syrian regime. What I heard today is they are willing to consider future military action against the regime. When you do that, you really are tipping the scales in this civil war, which is something the United States hasn't done before. That's going to beg, I would suggest, much more conversation on the Hill about authorities.

BLITZER: Jane Harman, I want to bring you in.

What does this say to you? Where is the Trump administration going as far as military action in Syria is concerned?

JANE HARMAN, PRESIDENT & CEO, WOODROW WILSON INTERNATIONAL CENTER: Well, let me point out the irony of the Iranians possibly being part of the bad group, when they were the victims of vicious chemical attacks by Iraq in the late '80s, and 100,000 were either killed or wounded from those attacks, and that set the stage for a lot of what came after.

But on this, I applaud the Trump administration and Ambassador Haley for what they have just done.

However, your question, I think, Wolf, is where's the strategy? This is a good tactic. If there's a follow-on that finely targeted, I would probably be for that. Congress needs to get into this. Nancy Pelosi was right when she called for Congress to come back into special session to debate and, hopefully, pass an authorization to use military force. I assume the legal basis for this action by the Trump administration is the tired old AUMF that everybody, but one, including me, passed in 2001 authorizing action in Afghanistan against those who attacked us on 9/11. This is a far stretch from that. The public needs to be brought into a debate about where we should be going, and it's years late. And we still don't have a real strategy for our actions in the Middle East. This could be a huge credit to the Trump administration if they call for an AUMF, if Congress rises to the indication and we do have a strategy that's well understood.

[13:35:10] BLITZER: Everybody stand by.

David, we're going to get to you in a moment.

We've got to take a quick break. There are other developments emerging. Syria, as you just heard, declaring that the strikes make the United States a partner of ISIS. Will this embolden the Syrian President Bashar al Assad? That, and much more when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Following the breaking news. Our Pentagon Correspondent Barbara Starr reporting the Pentagon is investigating possible Russian involvement in the chemical attack in Syria that killed so many civilians, including lots of children. And clearly it had a huge impact on President Trump and his going forward and ordering that Tomahawk cruise missile strike against that Syrian air base last night.

David Gregory, you've been watching all of this unfold. Give us your thoughts on where the situation stands right now.

DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I'm really focused on where the situation is going to stand. How does President Trump want this to end? I thought his U.N. Ambassador Nikki Haley was incredibly strong. A lot stronger than him, frankly, and more thorough and more plain spoken in laying out the case for this strike and a strong takedown of Russia, something that he, the president, as John was just saying, has not done himself. But his ambassador to the U.N. has been blaming Russia appropriately for this and facilitating his chemical weapons program. They have to answer for the fact, that those chemical weapons in that program still exist when, apparently, with the Obama administration everybody was so excited, instead of a strike, we were able to get those weapons put away.

This is a forceful response from President Trump, but what now? Either they want Assad never to use chemical weapons again in which case what's the negotiation like with Russia to make that happen and can you rush them or do they want regime change? Frankly this administration is saying one thing one day, one thing another. That is really sloppy at the very least and strategically dangerous. If they are going to push regime change, that's a big deal. The United States setting ourselves up for a real showdown with Russia. That's the story we're going to be looking at hard in the next few days.

[13:40:10] BLITZER: And maybe Iran as well.

GREGORY: Right.

BLITZER: You heard what U.S. Ambassador to the U.N. Nikki Haley just said, not just going after the Russians but the Iranians, who are supporting the Assad regime.

William Cohen is joining us. He was the secretary of defense during the Bill Clinton administration.

You have confidence, Secretary Cohen, in the direction of this Trump administration strategy in dealing with the Syrian regime?

WILLIAM COHEN, FORMER SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Well, we don't know the strategy. We know that there was a strike. And the question will become is there a comprehensive strategy looking at both Syria, Russia to be sure, but also Iran. There has to be a comprehensive strategy dealing with the entire region. Otherwise, we're going down an alley where we're not sure the end will be.

I applaud what President Trump has done. And I believe Secretary Tillerson and Secretary Mattis have really made a case to President Trump to take this action, and I'm glad he has done so. But I think taking it a step further, we have to see what the plan is.

And I agree that Congress has to be brought in. They have to be briefed. They have to be brought on board because this is going to be much bigger than one strike. If others are to follow, there has to be a much greater participation by Congress.

BLITZER: As you know, Secretary Cohen, this changes the overall U.S. strategy. For six years of this civil war, of this brutal war in Syria, the Obama administration hit various ISIS targets in Syria but never once went directly after a Syrian government military position, a position of the Syrian regime. All of a sudden, President Trump orders a strike against the Syrian military base. This changes the overall U.S. direction, right?

COHEN: It does change the policy towards Syria to be sure.

I want to make another point. When the Russians say that this is a violation of international law, really, the Russians shot down or their pawns shot down the Malaysian jet 17, as I recall, three years ago. They refused to allow the international community to come in and make any kind of a finding as to who was responsible. So we can't take their denial. It's denial, deflection and deceit on their part.

So this does mark a change on our relationship of what President Trump hoped to have and Russia is being exposed for what it really is, and that is a supporter of a really corrupt regime and a tyrannical one.

So I think it's going to change our relationship. It's going to I think cause President Trump to become more engaged. He wants to come back to America. He wants to have nation building here at home. But the reality is that the world's a dangerous place. Yes, he inherited it. He also campaigned for it. So now it's time for him to campaign a strategy in dealing with all the disparate elements there are in the world, pulling his team together, beefing up the State Department. Rex Tillerson needs a deputy. He needs a big staff to help him work all of these issues, because every single issue is related to the rest of the world. And you can't just do one piece at a time. It has to be comprehensive.

BLITZER: Stand by for a moment, Secretary.

Jane Harman is still with us.

Were you pleased or not pleased when the U.S. changed the strategy towards the Syrian regime last night by launching this first U.S. strike against the Syrian military target?

HARMAN: I was pleased and I wish that President Obama had done this in 2013 when at least half his advisors urged him to and when Syria was a simpler problem. I agree with bill, I wouldn't call that a strategy. I call it a tactic. The question is what is the strategy. I'm urging that Congress engage because it's Congress's role to authorize the use of military force and that would help bring the expertise that Congress clearly has on both sides of the aisle. People calling for this today I think are John McCain, Lindsey Graham, Tim Kaine and others. Congress should say in session. The Senate I guess is just adjourning now after the vote on Gorsuch. They should stay in session. They should do this now and then the Trump administration working with them ought to show some bipartisanship and clear American resolve to solve this.

GREGORY: One of the issues with Congress, though, is that Congress -- and I think Jane would agree with this -- has totally shirked its responsibility, for years now and failed.

HARMAN: Yes. GREGORY: It hasn't had the guts to have a real debate about how much power the president should have. President Obama was happy to keep all the executive authority, just like President Bush was. There should be a broader strategy. There's a big question here. Do you just want to go after ISIS or do you want to take out the Assad leadership, his regime? That's what Putin wants as well. He wants to keep his guy there and focus on ISIS. I think that will be part of the backdrop --

(CROSSTALK)

[13:45:23] BLITZER: John, you're suggesting this is not necessarily a one off. This is the beginning of a new -- a series of actions against the Syrian military?

KIRBY: Absolutely. She said it herself, we're prepared to do more. You have to expect she means more strikes like this on the Assad regime and their infrastructure. When you do that, now you are in new territory. You're in new waters. Up to now, the fight has been against ISIS and ISIS only. And we've been working on a AUMF that was designed for al Qaeda and Afghanistan, and Congress wasn't willing to give President Obama a new AUMF. But when you start going after the regime now, that's a how different -- that's a whole different scenario all together.

HARMAN: Right.

KIRBY: The other things they need to worry about in addition to authorities-- and I agree with Jane that they need to have a robust discussion on the Hill -- is expectation management. Now you're starting to see Turkey -- Turkey applauded these strikes and now they're calling for no-fly zones. Opposition groups are applauding the strikes and now they want and will probably expect more aggressive military action on the ground.

HARMAN: Right.

GREGORY: The other point I would make on that is this was very tailored to chemical weapons, this strike. You can say is just Syria, although the Pentagon is now investigating whether Russia was involved. But if you do broader attacks on the Syrian military that is a more direct competition with Russia because Syria is Russia's client state there. They've specifically reengaged in Syria to protect that client state. That would really put you at odds with Russia.

KIRBY: They have no love of Assad, but they don't want to see that regime collapse in an unstructured way.

SCIUTTO: The Iranians either.

COHEN: No, they don't. Russia has a long defense relationship with Syria. They don't want to give up their foot hold in the Middle East.

BLITZER: Secretary Cohen --

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: A quick question to Secretary Cohen. Should the Trump administration now wait for congressional action, passing of legislation authorizing the use of military force before taking additional direct military action against various Syrian military targets?

COHEN: I think the president always has the power to act unilaterally when time does not allow for a full discussion. I think this action was authorized. I don't think he had to go to Congress for this power. But to the extent this is the beginning of something much larger, and it's going to affect multiple parties, multiple countries, then I think it's time for Congress at least to have an opportunity to be heard. I don't expect them to be in favor of any action, as has been pointed out by David Gregory. Congress has not exactly been a Braveheart when it comes to making decisions on critical issues.

BLITZER: Jane Harman, very quickly --

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: -- do you agree?

HARMAN: Congress has not been a Braveheart and Congress doesn't want to own this problem. On both sides, they've let the president do what he does, and then if it goes wrong, it's his fault. But I think that time has to be over. This is way too serious. And our engagement in the world is at issue. And getting the Middle East right would be an enormous victory for the Trump administration.

BLITZER: Everybody stand by.

There's more news coming in, including Donald Trump's about face when it comes to Syria after directing these military strikes. How will all this impact his America First policy? The White House press secretary, Sean Spicer, just had an off-camera briefing. We're going to get an update on that when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:53:08] BLITZER: The White House press secretary, Sean Spicer, just wrapped up an off-camera briefing down in Palm Beach, Florida, giving more details on the time line of the U.S. Tomahawk cruise missile strikes on that Syrian air base.

Let's go to our senior White House correspondent, Jeff Zeleny.

Jeff, what did you hear from Sean Spicer?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, Sean Spicer articulated the timeline that the president went through, starting on Tuesday morning at 10:30 a.m., that led to his final decision around 4:00 on Thursday afternoon when he made that decision to strike and go ahead with this.

But, Wolf, we also learned another piece of interesting information, how the president informed his Chinese counterpart that, in fact, he had ordered these military strikes in Syria. Now, Sean Spicer said in revealing this for the first time, it was after their dinner last evening that was supposed to be the focal point of this big week of foreign policy for this administration, that the U.S. president reached out to his Chinese counterpart, President Xi Jinping, and said, look, I have made this strike against Syria. He said -- Spicer said this -- "After the dinner had concluded, the impact had already been made." It happened around 8:30 or so, that the strikes started. But the president informed President Xi that that was happening, Wolf. This, of course, security and threats, have been a central part of this meeting here in Mar-a-Lago, the threats of North Korea. But the fact that on the eve of their big discussion this morning, that President Trump had to inform his counterpart of the use of action certainly changed the tone of this meeting here.

But otherwise, Wolf, we have not heard from the president yet today on the Syria strike. His advisers are briefing folks on Capitol Hill and others trying to answer the central question here, what is next for this policy going forward. The administration has yet to articulate if this will change its policy towards Syria. Sean Spicer pushed back on the notion that this will interrupt the fight against ISIS. But of course, that's what Russia and some other critics of this action are saying -- Wolf?

[13:5519:] BLITZER: Jeff Zeleny down in Palm Beach for us covering the president's stay down there, covering important talks with the leader of China as well.

Jeff, we'll get back to you. Thanks very much.

That's it for me. Thanks very much for watching. I'll be back 5:00 p.m. eastern in "The Situation Room."

The news here on CNN, and there's lots of it, will continue right after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:59:58] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, there. I'm Brooke Baldwin. You're watching CNN.

Breaking news today, Russia outrage. China calling for diplomacy. Britain showing support.