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North Korea Shows Off Never-Before-Seen Missiles; Trump Shifting from America First Stance?; Thousands Demand That Trump Release His Tax Returns; North Korea Threatens All-Out War with U.S.; Police Violence Caught on Tape; Aired 3-4p ET

Aired April 15, 2017 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:18] ANA CABRERA, CNN ANCHOR: Top of the hour, you are live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I am Ana Cabrera in New York. Thanks so much for being with us.

We begin with the alarming possibility that North Korea may have new missiles capable of reaching the United States and Europe. This is an incredibly disturbing realization. It's only coming to light today after North Korea's annual military parade. And CNN was there inside Pyongyang for the grand display.

And what you're seeing right now are two canisters that North Korea says is capable of holding intercontinental ballistic missiles. This is the first time North Korea has ever shown off missile canisters of this size. And while it's still unknown whether the country is actually capable of launching them, one thing is clear, it wants the world to know it is actively trying.

The new threat could come at a more critical time. Tensions on the North Korean peninsula are alarmingly high. And while Kim Jong-un did not mark the country's most important holiday with a nuclear test analysts speculate he could carry out one very soon. If he does, there is a chance Vice President Mike Pence could be just across the border. He is scheduled to land in o Seoul, Korea on Sunday around 4:00 p.m. local time.

Now President Trump meanwhile is spending another weekend at Mar-a- Lago in Florida, and CNN's Suzanne Malveaux is there with him in West Palm Beach near the president's private resort.

Suzanne, a lot of new development. How is the president keeping up with it all?

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ana, good afternoon. Of course it was a really kind of a tense last 24 hours. The White House staff very much on high alert about whether or not there was provocation from North Korea. The president at his Mar-a- Lago resort, of course has room that are outfitted for secure communications and classified information. His deputy national security adviser, KT McFarland is here at Mar-a-Lago with him giving him those kinds of updates. And a little kind of a sigh relief if you will. But still all eyes on what could happen next.

And the president spent the last couple of days we have seen him on his golf course, International Trump Golf Resort there where he has been relaxing. White House officials say very intentional that there has been a light footprint when it comes to White House staff to allow him to spend the time enjoying this holiday weekend with his family and with his children, to allow top White House officials to do the same.

At the same time we have seen his route of the motorcade somewhat diverted earlier today. We have seen the root of the motorcade diverted today. That is because of protests that are occurring here at Mar-a-Lago as well as across the nation calling tax's day demanding that he release his tax returns. Several hundred people who have gathered. We are now told that that has ended. But that also creating a little bit of a stir here in the city.

And then finally what we're looking at is the -- of course the vice president, Mike Pence, and his journey to the -- to the Asia Pacific region. That is where he's going to be meeting with leaders of several key U.S. allies including Japan as well as Austria and Indonesia. But his first stop is going to be critical. North Korea. That's where he's going to be meeting with the acting president on Sunday when he first arrived. And then spending some time with American troops as well as Korean troops, making it a point very clear here that the United States is remaining vigilant, that it has economic and national security interest that are is shared with the South Koreans and of course they are keeping a very close eye on North Korea -- Ana.

CABRERA: All right. Suzanne Malveaux, reporting in West Palm Beach, thank you.

North Korea's show of force today has the whole world on edge. Let's head to South Korea now. CNN's Paula Hancocks has more on today's parade marking the birthday of North Korea's founder, the grandfather of current leader, Kim Jong-un. And of course they're all anticipating the Vice President Mike Pence's trip to this region -- Paula.

PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ana, the U.S. Vice President Pence is on his way to Seoul at a particularly interesting time on the peninsula. Certainly recently the North Koreans have said that they are ready to respond to all-out war with all-out war. And you saw a massive military parade in Pyongyang this Saturday. Experts around the world and intelligence agencies will be poring over those images to get any kind of information they can about what the capability of the North Koreans is or what their goals and their aims are.

Now in particular, the one thing that people are looking at is two new types of ICBM canisters. This is the intercontinental ballistic missiles which would have the potential of hitting mainland United States.

Now experts are saying that they are larger than anything they have ever seen before. Potentially it's a design concept. It's an indication of what North Korea is working towards. [15:05:02] And certainly, North Korean leader Kim Jong-un has been

very clear about what he wants to do. He wants to have an IBCM that can hit the United States, the mainland, with a nuclear tipped warhead. He said at the beginning of this year he was close to testing launching an ICBM. So this is what the experts are looking at from Pyongyang at this point. And we know that the Vice President Pence is coming at this tense time. He will on Sunday be going to an Easter service. He will be laying a wreath at the National Cemetery and then on Monday he will be meeting the acting president Hwang Gyo- an.

Interestingly, though, he is meeting politicians that won't be in power in a few weeks time. It is a very tricky time here in South Korea. There was an acting president, the previous president was impeached, imprisoned, and there's going to be on the election on May 9th. So certainly it is a very difficult time to be trying to deal with the likes of North Korea.

But when you look at South Korea certainly on the streets of Seoul, you don't see these tensions. You don't feel the concern that you feel further afield from Korea. This country has dealt with the northern neighbor that they are technically at war with for decades. Certainly from an unofficial point of view on the streets of Seoul, it appear as though it's business as usual -- Ana.

CABRERA: Business as usual. Paula Hancocks, thank you.

Now as we wait to see what North Korea might do next, let's bring in our panel to discuss. Joining me CNN global affairs correspondent Kimberly Dozier, CNN military analyst and former member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Colonel Cedric Leighton, and White House correspondent for the "Washington Examiner" Sarah Westwood.

Kimberly, I'll start with you, what is the significance of these new missiles?

KIMBERLY DOZIER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, the interesting thing is that we didn't see what many expected today. A nuclear weapons test, even though they had observed preparations at one of the locations where nuclear weapons underground testing had happened before. Instead it seems that Kim Jong-un has decided to settle with a military show of force including the threat of these intercontinental ballistic missile designs.

We don't know if they can work. Experts believe that sometime within President Trump's next four years, they could have something capable of reaching the United States. But that hasn't been proven through test firing. So instead of -- doing a nuclear test, it blinked. Maybe they've done it because China told them look, you've got to take this President Trump guy seriously. We don't know what he might launch, or they may just holding fire because everyone was expecting it. And the North Korean leader likes to surprise the world so they may just be waiting, just watch.

CABRERA: Colonel, when you take a look at the video and you see what they displayed, those canisters, what they are saying are to hold intercontinental ballistic missiles, we don't know if they were actually inside those canisters, what were your takeaway? Is there anything that surprised you?

COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, certainly the fact that they had two of these canisters out there. That they were mobile. Those things are definitely game -- or potential game changers if in fact there is a nuclear capable ICBM. There are two missiles that they displayed that are nuclear capable that we do know about, they are called KN 11 and KN 15.

Those missiles are intermediate range missiles. But the ICBM, the intercontinental ballistic missiles, of course have a larger range if in fact they really do exist and were inside those canisters. So I think this is -- you know, Kimberly was absolutely right. This is something where they may have blinked by putting it on parade instead of putting it into a test type situation.

CABRERA: Sarah, President Trump has talked very tough on North Korea. In fact let's show you a tweet from Thursday, he writes, "Great confidence that China will properly deal with North Korea. If they are unable to do so the U.S. with its allies will. USA."

So similar to President Obama's red line in Syria. Does President Trump risk backing himself into a corner domestically when he calls out the North Korea regime that at this time shows no signs of backing down for its own threatening rhetoric?

SARAH WESTWOOD, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, WASHINGTON EXAMINER: President Trump in every foreign policy situation that he's confronted considered unpredictability as an asset. He thought the previous administration was lacking and something that he think he can use to his advantage. That's why we didn't know that there was going to be any kind of military reprisal in Syria until after it has happened and it surprised a lot of people in Washington.

The MOAB that was used in Afghanistan came as another big surprise to people who are watching what the Pentagon was doing in the Middle East. And so that is the same approach that they're taking to North Korea. They don't want to telegraph what is on the table when it comes to North Korea. They just say all options are on the table but it doesn't seem like the administration is moving towards a military solution because the risk are so high when they are dealing with a nuclear capable company.

[15:10:07] They are telegraphing that they will not consider a preemptive strike. They shooting down news stories that suggest military plans are in the works. So they are trying to keep the escalating tensions from getting too hot before there is, you know, a real plan in place.

CABRERA: Well, if they blinked, if this show of military might but not actually taking any action was any sign, perhaps President Trump could say well, that's them now backing down.

But, Kimberly, Vice President Pence, he is now headed to this region to South Korea where he will spend Easter. Will his presence make North Korea more less inclined to launch a test, do you think?

DOZIER: Well, I think what his presence is going to do is reassure allies who are hearing one thing from their counterparts, say, their U.S. ambassador in the region, but then hearing different policies coming out of the White House either behind the podium or through the president's tweets. So what Vice President Pence will be doing is explaining here is what our policies are. We're not explaining a lot of them publicly because that is not Donald Trump's style.

He doesn't want to message the American public or the world about what he's going to do next. But trust us, we have a plan in place, we have a National Security team in place that we trust and you can trust what we're going to do next.

CABRERA: Colonel, you've said it would be completely unrealistic -- there would be no reason for the U.S. to launch an attack on North Korea. Do you see any circumstances in which that could happen?

LEIGHTON: I think the only circumstance, Ana, where that could happen is if the North Koreans launch an attack first. if they threatened to hit Seoul, for example, a city of well over 10 million people. That, you know, may potentially call for some degree of military action. Both sides have practiced going after each other's leadership, both the North Koreans and the South Koreans. So tensions are high but it's very clear that the United States does not want to engage in a hot war with North Korea and I think the Chinese are also on that side where they want to keep the North Koreans from doing that as well.

CABRERA: All right, got to leave it there, guys. Kim Dozier, Colonel Leighton and Sarah Westwood, our thanks to all of you.

And coming up this hour, on the campaign trail President Trump said the United States should not be the world's policeman. But with two major strikes in the past week and all the tough talk on North Korea, has he changed his mind?

And the mother of all bombs, a 20,000-pound explosive dropped on an ISIS outpost in Afghanistan, we have new information coming in about who was killed and we'll take a look at the aftermath.

Plus I'll speak to the former prime minister of Australia who has unique perspective on President Trump's challenges with China and North Korea and that part of the world.

You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:17:00] CABRERA: Some breaking news here on CNN, this coming from overseas, a horrific bomb attack in northern Syria. The target was a convoy of buses filled with civilians who are evacuating towns around Aleppo. Volunteer relief agencies telling us that at least 100 people are dead after the explosion and there is something else. The reporter in this area says the car that blew up was filled with food and children supplies. Perhaps to make it blend it with the rest of the evacuating cars and buses. Now again this happened near Aleppo, Syria. At least 100 people were

killed in this bomb attack which hit a convoy of pro-regime evacuees we are told. More details as they arrive here at CNN. Still no word on exactly who is to blame for this.

All eyes meantime are locked on the growing tensions between the U.S. and North Korea. President Trump seems to be backing off from his America first stance that drove most of his campaign. Let's take a look at this map. In the last couple of weeks, the president has made some major military moves around the globe. The U.S. launching those Tomahawk missiles at a Syrian airbase after the horrific gas attack there. Then just a couple of days ago, the U.S. dropped the largest nonnuclear bomb, the mother of all bombs, on ISIS tunnels and caves in Afghanistan. The death toll, by the way, is now at 94 ISIS fighters killed there.

Let's go ahead and bring in CNN global affairs correspondent Elise Labott.

Elise, the president has said in his own words that the U.S. cannot be the world's policeman. So has he changed his mind?

ELISE LABOTT, CNN FOREIGN AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ana, you know, these are crowd-pleasing comments on the campaign trail but I think as President Trump assumed the office, assumed the job as commander-in- chief, what America first really has to mean is, you know, keeping to, you know, what is America's national security interest and sometimes that does mean the use of force.

In the case of Syria, you know, obviously it was about chemical weapons and deterring the regime from using it again but I think President Trump was pretty clear that -- you know that had a deep, you know, those horrible images and we're seeing more today about this horrible bus bombings. These images had a deep impact on him.

You know, in Afghanistan when he used his mother of all bombs against ISIS the other day, that was part of his campaign pledge to go against ISIS. So these are real kind of, you know, very broad strokes, of what he was talking about in foreign policy but when he gets in and learns more about the issues, he has said himself that it's not as simple as he thought.

CABRERA: Now if we can put back up that map it's pretty striking when you really think about what's happened in the last couple of weeks.

LABOTT: It is.

CABRERA: We have what happened again in Syria, Afghanistan, this week we learned the U.S. is deploying more military personnel to Somalia. I'm curious, what's the response then from world leaders reacting to the U.S. making all these different military moves.

LABOTT: Well, I mean, I don't think there's been a kind of like large assessment, a part and parcel of a whole. Clearly that Syria strike was very popular but -- from a lot of allies because, you know, many allies particularly in the Arab world with Turkey and even some in Europe were looking for the Obama administration to take some action the regime of Bashar al-Assad.

[15:20:15] And you know that whole idea that President Obama let President Assad crossed his red line, a lot of people feel that that had damaged the U.S. credibility. So I think it has in some ways taken with some of these other actions sent a message that America is back and America is not afraid to act.

I think the question everybody wants to see now is where is this going? You know, we've heard a lot these last few days about, is this part of a strategy? Is it a strategy to strike Assad whenever he uses, you know, chemical weapons or something else? Is it a strategy as ISIS grows and he'll go after them? I think people would like to -- you know, they see the military hardware and all the, you know, big weapons in the arsenal, I think they want to see more meat on the bones of a policy.

CABRERA: What's the vision? What's the larger foreign policy?

Elise Labott, thank you so much.

Up next, major protests happening in city all around the United States demanding that President Trump release his taxes. We'll take you there live, next, stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:25:34] CABRERA: Thousands of people are hitting the streets from New York to Chicago to Los Angeles today. They are participating in tax day marches.

Here's the scene. Organizers say more than 180 marches have been planned in 48 states. Their goal is to convince President Trump to release the last 10 years of his tax returns.

We have several reporters covering today's marches. In Washington, D.C. CNN's Tom Foreman is walking the route with marchers there. Also in Washington, CNN's Cristina Alesci is with marchers outside the Trump Hotel, and in New York, CNN's Sara Ganim is in Brian Park.

Let's start with Tom Foreman in the nation's capital. Set the scene for us, Tom. What are protesters saying there?

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, they've said a lot of things today beyond taxes. Obviously, they want Donald Trump's taxes released. But they've also been hugely critical of the relationship with Russia, the way he's handled immigration, the way he has handled the minimum wage request, people wanting it more.

By and large there's just a general sense among the crowd here that they are not happy with the way this administration is moving forward. And importantly, this is also very clearly a precursor to a fight later this year when the Trump administration wants to launch into a big reform of the tax code in this country. Tax reform is something that the Trump administration wants to do maybe by August. A lot of people here, they are bracing for that fight -- Ana.

CABRERA: Thanks, Tom.

Now let's head over to Cristina. Is this just about Trump's releasing his tax returns as you've been talking to people there or is this more of a message to Congress? Congress as I understand it could demand Trump's tax returns.

CRISTINA ALESCI, CNN MONEY CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Ana. There are a lot of messages here today as Tom just said. But bottom line is the main message is show us your taxes. What are you hiding? That is a -- that is a message directly to the president but also given the fact that we're in Washington, D.C., a lot of people here want Congress to act. As you mentioned, there have been some congressional efforts to mandate Trump, to force and compel Trump to release his taxes. So far that hasn't gone anywhere really because those efforts need Republican support and right now that is not forthcoming.

But, Ana, just to give you a sense of where we are, we are at the end of the march and as you can see behind me, lots of different signs, all basically asking Donald Trump, what are you hiding, what is behind these tax returns? And what we'll see in those tax returns is essentially a lot more details that we have today. We'll see who his foreign business partners are. We'll see if he has bank accounts overseas. That's the kind of specific information that would be in a tax return and not in the financial disclosure documents that are out there now.

And Ana, I just want to point out the giant chicken behind me. There have been chickens all along the march route. And it is a symbol here that protesters are using perhaps to compel Donald Trump to do something. But again, the White House has made it clear that it has no plans to release these documents -- Ana.

CABRERA: Chicken? That's pretty funny actually. Thanks, Cristina Alesci.

Let's turn to Sara Ganim now here in New York. I see you are marching along with the folks there. What's the turnout? What's the atmosphere? And what is their end game?

All right. Unfortunately, we must have lost our connection with Sara Ganim but you can see that the marches continuing here in New York. We'll check back with them as the day goes on.

Coming up, we'll take you inside North Korea, CNN's Will Ripley got exclusive access, the only American reporter to go inside North Korea right now as tensions rise.

Are they preparing for another nuclear test?

And next, I'll speak to the former prime minister of Australia. His unique perspective on President Trump's challenges with China and North Korea.

You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [15:33:50] CABRERA: You are in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Ana Cabrera.

North Korea is threatening all-out war. That's a quote. If it's provoked by the U.S. The nation appeared to show off some new missiles that might have the ability to strike targets in the U.S. and Europe. President Trump tweeted this week, "If China won't reign in North Korea's nuclear program, the U.S. will." And he sent the U.S. aircraft carrier USS Carl Vinson to the region as well.

CNN's Will Ripley goes inside North Korea for a look at life under the reclusive leader Kim Jong-un who controlled just about everything and everyone in that nation. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WILL RIPLEY, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I've been to North Korea 11 times over the last few years. And every time you come here you hear that tensions between the U.S. and North Korea are high. But I have to say that this is the most tense that I have seen it during any time that I've visited the country.

Whenever I come here, I always get a sense that there are two very different worlds, the world inside North Korea and the world outside. Inside, everything in this society revolves around the North Korean leader Kim Jong-un and before him his father and grandfather.

This is a society that is built up around its leadership. They hold their leaders up to the highest possible esteem. And it's very much in contrast with the view from the outside world that North Korea is erratic, unpredictable and moving on a dangerous path as they continue to nuclearize.

[15:35:11] In some ways, Pyongyang resembles many other cities, as an increasingly modern skyline, North Korean leader Kim Jong-un has made it one of his initiatives to build more skyscrapers and public amenities in the city. In other ways, though, it's radically different.

You hear music playing on loud speakers throughout the city all day. In the morning to wake people up. In the evening to put them to bed at night. There is patriotic music, people are marching, they're practicing for the huge mass celebrations that they often do for national holidays or to celebrate the achievements of their leader.

And of course North Korea is one of the only places in the world where no matter who you ask, at least publicly you will never hear political dissent. Everybody will say that they are 100 percent behind their supreme leader. But given that Kim Jong-un has absolute power in this country, what else would they say?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CABRERA: And that was CNN's Will Ripley on what North Korea is like on a typical day but today of course not typical. It's a national holiday and the military paraded troops, tanks, rockets and missiles through Pyongyang, and past the country's leader Kim Jong-un. Let's bring in somebody who's a bit of an expert on the region. My

friend here on the desk, former Australian prime minister and president of the Asia Society Policy Institute here in New York, Kevin Rudd.

Mister Prime Minister, great to have you with us. Thanks so much. First, I just want to get your reaction to the video we've seen now, this parade with these missiles that they showed in the missile cases of sorts for this intercontinental ballistic missile.

KEVIN RUDD, PRESIDENT, ASIA SOCIETY: Well, I think we need to understand the fact that the North Koreans have been holding parades for a long time. And there have been missiles in those parades for a long time as well. So let's put it into a bit of context. Yes, these casings or mockups of missiles as you see them on parade.

CABRERA: You think they're mockups?

RUDD: Well, there's always a debate between the experts and others as to what's real and what's a mockup. But usually they are mockups. But to the extent to which they reflect substantial capabilities, yes, there are two sets of casings about two new developments in intercontinental ballistic missiles.

The first there appears to be the presentation of a submarine launched ballistic missile. And also an interesting demonstrating what's called their ability to use solid fuel as opposed to liquid fuel. That meaning if you got solid fuel, fire the missiles, it means that they can be fired straight away. With liquid fuels, it takes awhile to load propellants which give satellite an opportunity to identify what you are doing.

CABRERA: So what we're seeing, if they do indeed have missiles that would go into these capsules, those would be the solid fuels which would make them more quick to be able to use.

RUDD: That's the key in point. I mean, let's wait for all the technical experts to pore over.

CABRERA: Yes.

RUDD: And give us the definitive. That ain't my box of tricks.

CABRERA: Gotcha.

RUDD: But I think that's what they're signaling to do.

CABRERA: OK.

RUDD: But let's put it all into context. North Koreans are masters at -- let's put it, international political stage.

CABRERA: They know how to put on the show.

RUDD: Yes. Yes. This is their version of Hollywood. CABRERA: Now I'm curious if you are looking at this whole situation

right now and seeing something different than we've seen at other times of heightened tensions between the U.S. and North Korea. Is it different to you?

RUDD: I think so. It's to do with things other than what we have seen at the parade. It's to do with, A, the fact that they have done five nuclear tests. They got a lot of nuclear materials to put into bombs. Last year or so they've done 37 missile tests. Then moving more to what I've described as deployment stage. And then the open question is, when can you miniaturize the nuclear material, put it on the end of a warhead?

CABRERA: Yes.

RUDD: And land it with reasonable accuracy. Other than South Korea or Japan, Guam, or elsewhere? That's the key question. But the pace of that has been increasing which is why the United States and President Trump have been right to react firmly to this.

CABRERA: So you think that tough talk is a good thing.

RUDD: Well, look, who can influence the outcome here? Probably three countries really, North Korea themselves, the United States and People's Republic of China. And so the United States is seized with the gravitas of this, which is it is a real and emerging existential threat. The ability of the North Koreans to target and land a missile with a nuclear warhead. Under a leadership which is at best unpredictable. So the question there is what do you do about it?

The administration's policies as I see it is got -- its subjective being nuclearization, it's applying maximum pressure in order to bring that about and that's both military pressure like you see with the Carl Vinson deployment but also diplomatic pressure on the Chinese.

CABRERA: Right.

RUDD: In order to induce a strongest set of measures out of Beijing in order to cause substantive behavior change in Pyongyang.

CABRERA: And that is the key. How do you best influence the Chinese or leverage the Chinese? Right? Because I have been talking to different experts on this issue. Everyone points to China as maybe the key players of this three-way relationship, the U.S., North Korea and China.

[15:40:06] We know that China is the lifeline as far as the economy in North Korea goes. North Korea needs China but does China really need North Korea?

RUDD: Well, what the Chinese want is not for North Korea to collapse. What they want is not for there to be an immediate unification with the South. The way you roll that back into your description of the three players is really like going back to school and putting Venn diagrams on the -- on the board and seeing which of these they can fit. U.S. interest, Chinese interest, and then you've got those of North Korea itself. And can you find interlocking points of interest?

From the U.S. point of interview, I think what President Trump has done successfully through the Mar-a-Lago summit is demonstrate to President Xi Jinping that for the U.S. this is a bottom line concern for him and to the U.S. national security policy establishment. It's not just business as usual.

For the Chinese, you see some increase in the tempo of their language and behavior towards the DPRK. But the big question will be, if the North now proceeds with another nuclear test, or another set of missile test, what will the Chinese then do? And that's when the debate opens up about can they begin to take measures to reduce their level of oil exports to North Korea?

CABRERA: They have said this week that that's what they would plan to do, that they had warned North Korea that that could happen.

RUDD: Well, already they have turned back coal imports from North Korea, and that's consistent with previously agreed U.N. Security Council sanctions. But as for new measures, the oil thing will be a big play. It's happened once before temporarily way back in 2006 for a few days. For the Chinese to do this more comprehensively would actually go to crude oil, refined petroleum, jet fuel, aviation fuel, the sort of things which actually go to turn the wheels in North Korea.

CABRERA: That's interesting. Real fast, before we let you go, too, I'm curious of what you make of some of the -- the sort of friendly rhetoric we're hearing out from President Trump which seemed to be a major flip-flop from what he was saying about China specifically on the campaign trail. You know, he had this -- the summit at Mar-a-Lago with the president of China. And since then he's talked about how they had good chemistry, that they this week had a good phone call. He seems to kind of be chummy in some ways.

Do you think he's trying to deploy this positive reinforcement strategy, saying nice things about China, maybe they will want to do what the U.S. wants them to do?

RUDD: I think a lot of people was critical of the President Trump in the lead-up to the Mar-a-Lago summit. Frankly the outcome from U.S.' interest point of view and ally interest around the world has been pretty positive. That's kind of my assessment.

We are looking at China's relationship for 35 years in various capacities over years. And what I'd say is this. President Trump with North Korea and denuclearization as the core objective, is now I think seeking to maximize what he can do with Xi Jinping to bring about material change. If that means a better line of political communication and post Mar-a-Lago, well, that's to the good.

Does that mean bringing about substantive changes in Chinese behavior towards the North Koreans? That's what he's seeking to do. We're at the beginning of what I describe as a longer process. There will be spikes in this, for example, if the North Koreans do proceed in the not-too-farthest future to launch -- to conduct another nuclear test or a series of missile tests. But the key objective as I see it right now of American diplomacy across the various means available to them, military and diplomatic and political, is to bring about substantive change now in Chinese behavior.

CABRERA: Right.

RUDD: And surprising, President Trump is trying to keep the phone lines open.

CABRERA: All right. We'll see what happens. Thanks so much, Kevin Rudd. Great to have you on.

RUDD: Good to meet you.

CABRERA: Really nice to meet you.

All right. I want -- as we heard to break right now -- take you to Berkeley, California. These are some live pictures. You can see clashes are happening between pro and anti-Trump supporters. And those who don't like what the administration is doing. They are clashing. You can see law enforcement trying to get in the middle there, break some of those heightened tensions on the ground up here in the U.S. At least four people have been arrested we are told. We're working to get more information here and we'll bring it to you as we get it.

Up next, two police incidents on opposite sides of the country both on tape and both causing a firestorm over police behaviors. We'll show you much of this in a moment. But first, Ebola, Zika, bird flu, recent outbreaks of these deadly diseases have claimed thousands of lives. And the worst might be yet to come.

CNN's new original film "UNSEEN ENEMY" looks at where the next outbreak might come from and what we can do to stop it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. LARRY BRILLIANT, EPIDEMIOLOGIST: Over the last three decades there have been about 30 newly emerging diseases that have the potential to be pandemics. If we do nothing, it's not a matter of if there will be a global pandemic, it's just a matter of when and which virus and how bad.

[15:45:11] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The world changes around us at increasing speed. We cause a lot of that change. Migrating to cities, stripping the earth of its resources and altering primeval jungle.

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CABRERA: I'm going to take you back now to Berkeley, California. These are live images right now of protests on the ground. Of course today is the big tax day protest. [15:50:02] A lot of people gathering around the country to try to

convince the president to release his tax returns. So that was happening. But as you can see, there are some clashes now happening as well among the different people who have come to this scene.

We are told by folks there on the ground that these are both pro-Trump and anti-Trump protesters who are now clashing in the streets here. There have been four arrests at least so far. And a couple of people have been injured, according to the Berkeley Police spokesman, Byron White. He says those injuries were relatively minor, which is the good news. The officer who was injured was treated and released after someone either threw pepper spray or teargas into the crowd according to police there.

But you can see tensions are very, very high. We are working to get some more information on this, and we're continuing to watch the video that is coming in, these aerial pictures from the scene there. We'll keep you posted as we learn more information.

Now let me talk about another officer involved incident. Lots of video that has caught people's attention this week. Two law enforcement agencies on two different sides of the country, taking swift action after a couple of shocking incidents were caught on tape.

First, let's show you what happened just outside Atlanta. Two Gwinnett County police officers were fired after what happens in this video. After this cell phone video surfaced of them kicking and punching a handcuffed motorist who was initially pulled over for missing a license plate.

And now let's head to Sacramento. Watch what happens here. A police officer there is under criminal investigation after dash cam video shows him throwing a man on the ground and punching him repeatedly apparently for jaywalking. The man said he feared for his life.

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NANDI CAIN JR., ACCUSED JAYWALKER: Putting my arms in different positions. I felt like they were going to draw a gun out and shoot me in my back.

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CABRERA: Let's bring in CNN's legal analyst, Joey Jackson.

Joey, let's listen to what police officials in Georgia have said after they fired the two officers for punching and kicking the handcuffed motorist there. Let's listen.

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CHIEF BUTCH AYERS, GWINNETT COUNTY POLICE: We recognize that the trust between the community and law enforcement is fragile. In situations like what occurred yesterday only make this worse. Therefore, it was extremely important that the Gwinnett County Police Department do a thorough, quick and honest evaluation as to what occurred yesterday and to take appropriate action.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: So, Joey, this investigation is just getting underway. But they've already fired those police officers. What do you think?

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I think that's a very big step. And let me tell you why. Because the culture starts from the top. And what they have said, in essence, and I give the chief so much, you know, respect for this, is that we're not going to tolerate this. He's distancing himself from the bad apple officers, he's letting the community know that he's not going to tolerate it. And any other officer of his who would go rogue, he's not going to tolerate either. And he's sending the message that this isn't representative of what we are, or who we are.

And related to that, and I'm really -- I'm keeping my eye also on the Justice Department because when you see that swing and that punch, that's a depravation of a civil right. And I really want to know under this administration, will the Justice Department be aggressive at going after officers who do this. Support police, they do great things, but when they go wrong, what do you do?

CABRERA: So, Joey, I want to go back live right now, apologies to interrupt to what we're discussing because we have some more developments happening in Berkeley. And we do want to take you there right now where you're seeing again heightened tensions on the ground, people who are fighting each other. Different factions here, some who are supportive of President Trump, others who don't like what the president's doing and they are clashing in the streets.

It's our understanding that these are the two groups who are now confronting each other. And you can see that there have been -- there's been some pushing, some shoving, some kicking. Our understanding is police have also gotten in the mix. They've been trying to break up some of these heightened moments in the crowd. And there have been some injuries, minor injuries so far.

But when you see these groups gathering as they are, people are in the crowd with helmets on. Certainly concerning to see that. And it's hard to tell. I'm looking closely.

Joey, do you see police officers in this video? I can't -- I can't see police among these folks right here. But it's hard to know who's who. There's this whole group on the left of your screen that appeared to be wearing black and holding some kind of -- I don't know if they're weapons or sticks. And then you've got the folks on the right who appear to be a group of their own. And they're in a posture which looks like a fight's about to break out.

JACKSON: Let's hope it doesn't escalate.

CABRERA: And that's the thing. We don't know exactly what's happening. We are working to get more information. We can tell that up until this point, that there was a firecracker at one point thrown into the crowd, according to Berkeley Police. [15:55:10] No one was injured from that, is what we are told.

Multiple agencies we're told are assisting the Berkeley Police Department with crowd control. But again as you look at these pictures, it's hard to see where the police officers are. Again, we have no control over the video. This is coming from our affiliate KGO in Berkeley, California, providing these live aerial images. And so they are zoomed in right now on the scene in which there is a heightened situation.

So, Joey, apologies -- I apologize that we had to interrupt our other segment talking about the police violence videos and some of the excessive force that is now under investigation, to see. But we'll continue to monitor this. We're going to continue to monitor those situations, in Georgia and California, too, to see what comes of those investigations. But we've got to take a quick break. We'll be right back.

JACKSON: The nature of breaking news.

CABRERA: I know. So be it, right?

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