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Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield

Woman Raped, Murdered by Condo Security Guard; Decapitation Murder; Bible Club Battle; Drunk Babysitter Charged with DWI; Fire in the Sky; Ouch!; Dramatic Rescue of Four Year Old. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired May 03, 2017 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

[20:00:00] ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HLN HOST (voice-over): You`d think you`d be safe living in an upscale apartment.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was a young, beautiful, vibrant woman.

BANFIELD: Electronic locks, security cameras, even guards.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)

BANFIELD: But did one of those guards actually kill a Florida woman he was supposed to protect?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As a security guard, he used his access to prey on someone who was very vulnerable.

BANFIELD: Exorcisms, demons, and a victim beheaded!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I almost passed out when I was told that she was decapitated.

BANFIELD: A Kansas mom is butchered, and police say her son`s ex- girlfriend did it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was a shock to me and my teammate.

BANFIELD: The girlfriend allegedly confessed, and a pastor thinks he knows why.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We were in the process of evaluating her mental situation versus is being demonic.

BANFIELD: Why this crime sounds more like a horror movie script.

Parents mad as hell.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have to consider the constitutional rights of the students here.

BANFIELD: Their kids` bible study shut down after atheists complain.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s merely a club where the kids gather and they talk about good character.

BANFIELD: But whose constitutional rights were actually at stake?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s not something that the school (INAUDIBLE)

BANFIELD: And what if the Bible had been a Quran?

Imagine seeing this during your afternoon commute.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It collided with the post, came down to the road and exploded.

BANFIELD: One moment, it`s a small plane, the next a huge fireball.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you know you`re going to go down and you got to land, you`ve got to pick out a place to land.

BANFIELD: Would you believe the pilot escaped without a scratch? We`ll show you the aftermath.

Hero on the move, a cop leaps into a pond where a little boy is drowning.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Got a kid that fell into the pond!

BANFIELD: The rescue, the recovery, and the day his parents won`t soon forget.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey (INAUDIBLE) need some help! Call 911 for me!

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: Hello, everyone. I`m Ashleigh Banfield. This is PRIMETIME JUSTICE.

No matter where you live, if there`s a locked door and high-tech security in place, you feel pretty safe when you lay your head down at night. But

security is sometimes only as good as the hackers standing outside, and that`s why police say a beautiful young Orlando woman is no longer alive

tonight.

Sasha Samsudean came home after a late night out with friends. And why not? She lived in a safe place, surveillance cameras, security codes, even

real, live security guards. Still, Sasha was murdered inside her apartment. She was found wrapped up in a comforter on her own bed.

Strangely, the toilet seat in her bathroom was up. A condom was on the floor, as was a very strange footprint.

It did not take the police long to nab a prime suspect. Take a look at your video. It was the security cameras that told quite a tale about a

security guard named Stephen Michael Duxbury. Police say he somehow hacked her digital door lock, crept silently into her apartment, and then raped

and strangled her in the safety of her own home.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN MINA, ORLANDO POLICE CHIEF: As a security guard, he used his access to prey on someone who was very vulnerable. Our hearts go out to Sasha`s

family. Our thoughts and prayers are with them. And we hope that this will bring a little bit of closure.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Understandably, Sasha Samsudean`s family is destroyed. But they are also angry, and they are suing a few different parties -- the apartment

company where she lived, the security company that hired Stephen Duxbury, and the company that made the lock on her door, saying Sasha was left

dangerously susceptible to unsophisticated forced-entry attacks.

Ray Caputo is a reporter with News 96.5 WDBO and he joins me live from Orlando. Three parts to this lawsuit -- is there one part, though, Ray,

more culpable than the other?

RAY CAPUTO, WDBO: Well, right now, Ashleigh, like you mentioned, there`s three different entities being listed in this lawsuit. One of those -- I

don`t personally know if one is more culpable, but the one that I think is drawing the most interest Kwikset. That`s the lock company.

Now, from about 2015, there`s information readily available on the Internet that you can hack into one of these locks. Now, in spite of that, the

company never really did anything, and in this lawsuit, it says that they`re to blame partially for Sasha Samsudean`s murder.

BANFIELD: And let`s not forget that there is one Stephen Duxbury himself who is facing first-degree murder, among other charges, as well -- sexual

battery, burglary, et cetera.

[20:05:02]But back to why and how this could have happened in the first place. There are allegations that other residents had complained about

this security guard in the past. What happened to those allegations? Why was he still guarding?

CAPUTO: Your guess is as good as mine. I mean, he had a violent past. And when this case first came out, I was on your show talking about it, and

we thought that Duxbury had no criminal history. When you dig a little deeper, he left a pretty long trail dating back to his youth of violent

things that eerily are similar to this case right here.

BANFIELD: So the company that`s being sued, Vital Security, that hired him -- they gave us a statement about what they did to check his background,

and they feel pretty good about their work. They said, "What we do know is that Mr. Duxbury passed a background check performed by the state of

Florida in order to receive his class D license to work as a security guard, that he had no criminal history, that he served in the U.S. Air

Force. The company will continue to cooperate with the Orlando Police Department and the state attorney`s office as requested."

So is it an issue that whatever was in his background was in his background when he was a juvenile and therefore was expunged and not visible to those

who are looking?

CAPUTO: That is correct. But you know, the thing that -- when he was 14 or 15 years old in Massachusetts was just horrible. And it was a pretty

big deal. He was accused of hitting a baby sitter over the head with a shovel. When she came to, he was choking and kissing her. He ended up

getting scared away, and then the story came out and he was charged with aggravated assault.

So those charges were dropped or pled down, but that was a pretty -- but it was a red flag, if you will, and it could have prevented Stephen Duxbury,

if they would have dug that up, of getting hired because of that violent criminal history.

BANFIELD: OK, Ray, don`t go anywhere right now. Lieutenant Dan Brady is with the Orlando Police Department. He investigated Sasha Samsudean`s

murder, and he`s with me now live.

Lieutenant, thank you so much for joining us live tonight. I appreciate this. The video that we see shows Stephen Duxbury following Sasha into the

apartment complex, and it is clear as a bell.

LT. DAN BRADY, ORLANDO PD (via telephone): Yes. Thank you.

BANFIELD: You can see him walking through...

BRADY: Yes, thank you so much.

BANFIELD: You can see him walking through the camera shot. But what don`t we see? What camera shots have you seen that have not been released yet to

the public? What evidence is out there on video that we don`t know about?

BRADY: Good evening, Ashleigh. Glad to be here. Well, the video that we released is pretty much all the video that is available. The video was

limited to the parking garage entrance, and also on the first floor. So there wasn`t a whole lot of extra video surveillance available on this

case.

BANFIELD: And yet there is this timeline that has been pieced together by the various different cameras and key fobs. I mean, obviously, some doors,

you have to swipe them electronically to go through them, and he had a key fob that tracked his movements throughout the night.

And there`s kind of a big black hole between 5:14 AM and 6:36 AM, where Duxbury can`t be found anywhere. There`s just not one sign of him, not a

picture, not a key fob swipe, nothing. But how does that leap you towards murdering this young woman in the video?

BRADY: I wish I had the answer to that, but that is a giant concern, that leap at the very end where he`s not tracked. But the last thing we see him

carrying out is two trash bags at around 6:30 in the morning, which is not normally part of his job, and he couldn`t recall another incident while he

worked there that he had actually taken out trash bags.

BANFIELD: What was in the trash bags? Anybody know?

BRADY: The trash bags were not recovered. By the time we got the video, the trash had already been emptied. But those trash bags did match the

ones found inside Sasha`s apartment that she used. So we suspect those were the bags taken from inside her apartment.

BANFIELD: Ah, the forensics caught up!

BRADY: Possibly containing evidence.

BANFIELD: OK. I`ve seen that before, or sometimes just striations on the manufacturer of the trash bags can lead you to match a product in the home

to a trash bag in a landfill.

What -- tell me a little bit about what was found in Sasha`s apartment. Like, what kind of forensic evidence did you come across that basically

pointed you right to this guy?

BRADY: Well, I had the privilege of supervising this investigation. We had a team of excellent detectives and amazing crime scene investigators

that worked this case. They recovered Stephen`s latent prints inside the bathroom of Sasha`s apartment. We also located his DNA and we also matched

a shoe print to those seized in a search warrant for his house.

BANFIELD: But didn`t Stephen tell you when you asked him that he`d never been inside that beautiful apartment?

BRADY: He denied ever going inside that apartment. And you know, that`s hard to explain why we have such strong evidence if you`ve never been

inside that apartment.

[20:10:06]BANFIELD: Boy.

BRADY: And he didn`t want to say that initially. His first answer was, We`re not supposed to go in those apartments, not, No, I`ve never been

inside that, which was alarming to our detectives.

BANFIELD: So I think, as I understand it, he suggested there might be some other potential suspect out there, that he may have even have seen some

stranger. What happened when he was asked to do a composite sketch?

BRADY: He did describe a person who he thought was with Sasha later on in the morning, closer to the end of his shift. But it was a very vague

description that really couldn`t be identified to anybody located on video surveillance or anywhere in the area, and it didn`t seem to make a whole

lot of sense.

But we were looking for any suspect. We gave him the opportunity to, if there was a suspect out there, give us a description, what he was wearing,

what he looked like, and we`re going to try to find him on video, you know, and we couldn`t locate anybody that matched the description that he gave

us.

BANFIELD: And as a security guard, did he give you a full, rich description that you would think a security guard would be able to do

because that`s his job?

BRADY: You would think so. The description on Sasha was very descript (ph), he -- the paint (ph) color, the pants she was earing, the shirt she

was wearing. But the person that was seen with walking away was pretty vague. And the description of this person who he thought could potentially

be Sasha walking with this unknown person...

BANFIELD: That`s curious.

BRADY: ... was a different set of clothing than he initially described.

BANFIELD: So he seemed, as I understand, very nervous when you all were there, trying to offer help, but pacing the hallway, acting unusual. And

then there were these curious scratches on his arms. What did he say about those?

BRADY: When questioned about the scratches on the arm, he said that he had a nervous condition that caused skin irritations. I believe he said it was

eczema. But it was on his left arm, and it, you know, did not look like a nervous condition. It looked like it could potentially be scratch marks

for defensive wounds.

BANFIELD: Lieutenant Brady, do you think you have your man?

BRADY: All the evidence points to (INAUDIBLE) and I absolutely believe he is our man.

BANFIELD: Lieutenant Brady joining us from Orlando. Thank you, Ray Caputo, as well, in Orlando. Thank you to both of you. We`ll continue to

watch what happens in the trial of Stephen Duxbury.

Two Baton Rouge police officers will not be facing federal charges in the shooting death of Alton Sterling. You may remember last July, Mr.

Sterling, a black man, was shot by two white officers outside of a convenience store. A bystander`s video showed the officers pinning him to

the ground before shooting him. We`re going to show this to you, but I do want to warn you that this video is graphic.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED). (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Got a gun! Gun!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, bro! I swear to God!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get on the ground!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: That videotaped shooting of Alton Sterling led to widespread criticism and protests, too. His aunt became emotional when talking about

the Department of Justice`s decision.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANDRA STERLING, ALTON STERLING`S AUNT: He put that gun in his hand! (INAUDIBLE) and y`all making it seem like it`s Alton! (INAUDIBLE) put that

gun in his hand and saying, I`m going to kill you. So how do you think Alton know? How do you think Alton feel after hearing that, I`m going to

kill you?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: This case now could be headed to state court. Louisiana`s attorney general says the police will be investigating whether criminal

charges should be filed against those officers.

In Kansas, just days before a frightening and horrifying murder, the accused killer was looking for a pastor for a little counseling and an

exorcism.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She come up here for help. She was seeking on exorcism through town, and someone had referred her to us. And we had been to her

home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Straight ahead, Pastor Terry Fox is going to tell us what happened in those days before that terrifying murder took place.

And imagine you`re just sitting calmly, working at your desk. Something from the ceiling falls. What`s your next move? What do you think this

woman did? Do you think perhaps she may have faked that it hit her?

(LAUGHTER)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:18:52]BANFIELD: True crime stories that are ripped from the headlines can be pretty jarring. Just ask the creators of "Law and Order." Imagine

the stories they read through to write their scripts ever week. (INAUDIBLE) the neighbor came across the story of Rachael Hilyard, and you

almost need your Bible and a crucifix to keep you safe from this one.

Rachael was worried about her, soul so much so, she tracked down a pastor and asked for a real, live exorcism. And she found one.

But just days later, something happened that no pastor, no God, no strongman could have stopped. Police say she called up her ex-boyfriend`s

mom, lured her to her garage, and cut off her head in a possessed rage.

Micki Davis didn`t stand a chance, and her 9-year-old grandson who came with her had to run for his life after calling the police. Police say

after Rachael`s attack, she placed Micki`s head in the kitchen sink but decided to leave her body back in the garage. They say she also told

police God told her to do this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[20:20:00]GENE GARDNER, VICTIM`S RELATIVE: I almost passed out when I was told that she was decapitated. My knees went weak and I felt nauseous.

Micki has been a sister to me for 30 years.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: The pastor who had arrived for the exorcism before poor Micki`s gruesome murder said that he didn`t do it. He didn`t do an exorcism, said

he needed more time to assess the situation, but he did bless that woman`s home. He also said Rachael told him that evil spirits live there.

Tim Potter is a reporter and a staff writer for "The Wichita Eagle," and he interviewed Rachael, that suspect, in jail. Tim, what was she like?

TIM POTTER, "WICHITA EAGLE" (via telephone): She -- at first, she seemed pretty quiet. Then she began to talk. At times, she would look away. She

would go silent, then she would talk at length. A couple times, she put the phone down, and I thought she was going to, you know, exit the

interview, and then she would get back on. A couple times, she looked as if her eyes were tearing up, but I don`t know what emotions were going on,

if any.

BANFIELD: But all of this talk about, you know, needing an exorcism and being possessed -- did she seem like that in the jail?

POTTER: No, I can`t say that. Again, my observations were that she seemed kind of distant at times. What I observed was that she spoke quietly. I

could not get her to clarify some of her comments. And she really wouldn`t talk about the day that it happened.

In fact, she never used the word "kill." She never used the word "decapitate." But she -- the one thing she did blurt out about that day is

she said that it had been ordinary. And she used the word "ordinary."

BANFIELD: That the day had been ordinary. Maybe for her, but certainly not for anybody who knew Micki Davis. And one of those people would be her

9-year-old grandson. Tim, that grandson was there with his grandmother Micki when this happened. He had to run for his life. But did he see what

happened to his grandmother? Did he see her being decapitated?

POTTER: Police say he did not see her actual death. He did see her being attacked. His first description, I believe, to 911 dispatchers were

somebody had knocked his grandmother down and was beating her. But he did not see the actual death. He did end up on the next street over, and he

was going door to door knocking apparently to get help.

BANFIELD: Did this woman have a drug issue? Was this a true issue of, you know, a woman who believed she was possessed by demons, or was she just a

woman with a drug problem?

POTTER: She did have a drug problem. She -- according to police, they knew her as a heroin and meth user. She has some drug convictions. She

has a history of substance abuse. It`s in court documents.

BANFIELD: That`s not going to bode well for her when court convenes in her trial.

Stand by for a moment, Tim. Pastor Terry Fox is with me live. He`s the person who was asked by this suspect to perform an exorcism, and he joins

me live from Wichita.

Pastor Fox, thank you for being here. What was your assessment...

PASTOR TERRY FOX, ASKED TO PERFORM EXORCISM: Thank you.

BANFIELD: ... of Rachael Hilyard? Was she a woman possessed or was she a sick woman with a drug problem?

FOX: You know, Ashleigh, we`ve been doing this type of ministry for many, many years, and when she came to our church for help, of course, we wanted

to help her. One thing I want your audience to know as a Christian pastor, God, the God of the Bible, would never tell anyone to do something horrible

like this. You know, at one point in her testimony, she said it`s God`s fault that she`d committed this horrible crime. Well, we know that`s not

true.

And we had a couple of occasions to be with her, and we knew she was troubled. Part of the ministry that we do with our paranormal ministry is

that we try to analyze and come to the place where we understand where they are.

Obviously, I want the audience to know sometimes, demons are very much involved. Exorcisms are needed in some cases, and even oftentimes, when

crimes like this has been committed, it is because of supernatural activity from the dark side. And so...

[20:25:00]BANFIELD: It will be hard -- I will say, Pastor, it will be very hard to convince a jury of that. They tend to look very scientifically at

these things when the forensics come in and the witness accounts and the admissions come in.

One thing I was very intrigued by, though, sir, was the fact that she told that you evil spirits live there. Was that your assessment? Did you feel

something when you were there? Did you think there was something other than what many people watching this would think, and that is that that lady

is in a lot of trouble for no other reason than she did something criminal?

FOX: You know, Ashleigh that`s a great question. And we get called to home. What she had stated to us is that there was something evil in her

home and also something evil in her. And in my 30 years of experience, we have found that can be true. There can be situations in a home that was

evil or dark, and it can be with her.

I would tell you -- and it`s still an open investigation here, and I don`t want to divulge anything at this particular time about necessarily my

opinion of that, but I will tell you this. We were very concerned with that house and we were very concerned with her. And we were in the process

of trying to figure out different ways to try to help Rachael. Unfortunately, we just didn`t have enough time to really get to know her

and work with her in this situation. But I will tell you this...

BANFIELD: There are few things that jurors will get to know about her. Pastor, I`m sorry for interrupting you, but I do want our viewers to know

what was on her social media feeds because I think they`re somewhat telling about this woman.

In one of her Facebook posts on April 6th -- and this happened three days before the April 9th murder -- she says, "Dear God in the cloud, please

don`t let them cut my head off anymore, or ever, for that matter. I just don`t like it. Please don`t hurt me anymore."

On the same day, she also put this on Facebook. "Well, my psychopathic serial killers for beginners in training class is over for the day. Whew.

Now for homework time, or what kids?" A little complex, a little confusing.

But then there was an Instagram photograph that she posted, as well. And if you look at it, it shows a lot of smoke going up towards the ceiling

fan. Some of our staff looked closely in the bottom righthand corner, felt like we could see the picture of a face, like a skull. And she posted,

"Look here, it`s the grim reaper in a cloud of smoke."

I`ll let our audience just keep their eyes on this for a moment. But I want to bring in Joey Jackson and Danny Cevallos on this one. I don`t

doubt for a moment that prosecutors are going to want to put this stuff in the case at some point. Does it matter one hoot whether she thinks she was

possessed by demons, whether she was possessed by demons, for that matter, when it comes to a trial?

JOEY JACKSON, HLN/CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I have some very bad news for her. This is Kansas, is it not?

BANFIELD: Yes, it is.

JACKSON: Kansas does not have the insanity defense.

BANFIELD: Really?

JACKSON: It is one of four states in this 50-state union where you cannot plead insanity. They abolished it in 1995. And so good luck with your

exorcism defense therefore. People don`t know (ph) understand the law. She may have been setting up a defense for herself, but it`s going to

matter a nary (ph) to that jury.

BANFIELD: And not only that, but Kansas, Danny, is a death penalty state.

DANNY CEVALLOS, HLN/CNN LEGAL ANALYST: That`s correct. And just like Joey said, to echo what he said, she will not be able to avail herself of the

evil spirits defense, although according to Pastor Terry, there are evil spirits in some houses in his experience. But not this one. So this will

not be an available defense. And I`m pretty sure in Kansas, not only is insanity unavailable, but so, too, is the evil spirits defense.

BANFIELD: Well, and as a death penalty, I`m sure that there are all of those aggravators, like cruel, heinous, those sorts of things, which I

don`t think anyone would deny with a 9-year-old child being present. Dying that way is probably one of the very worst.

I want to thank my guests, Tim Potter, Pastor Terry Fox. And of course, Danny and Joey, I`m going to ask you to stick by, if you can. Thank you so

much.

An elementary school Bible study group shut down after an atheist group complains. Is this a question of separation of church and state? Is this

a question of freedom of speech? Couple of other questions we got about it, too, next.

[20:30:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: A lot of elementary schools have clubs, you know, like the drama club, the chess club, the book club. And in some schools, there is a bible

club. But just outside of Memphis, some first and second graders are no longer allowed to attend their bible club. Used to be before class, not

anymore.

That is because an atheist group didn`t like it and sent the school a letter saying the club is unconstitutional. School system took the charge

seriously and shut the club down. And now some parents understandably are angry. They say the class wasn`t mandatory. It was held before school

starts and that it should be allowed to stay.

(START VIDEO CLIP)

NATE KELLUM, ATTORNEY, CENTER FOR RELIGIOUS EXPRESSION: It is merely a club where the kids gather and they talk about good character that they can

learn from biblical perspectives. You have to consider the constitutional rights of the students here. Kids want to gather before school voluntarily.

It is not something that the school is requiring. It is not something that the school is endorsing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Linda K. Wertheimer is a journalist and the author of "Faith Ed: Teaching About Religion in an Age of Intolerance." She is joining me live

from Boston. And Amanda Knief is the National Legal and Public Policy director for American Atheist. And she joins me live from Washington.

Ladies, thank you so much for being here.

Linda, I`m going to start with you. When it comes to the constitutional rights of the kids, do they have the constitutional right to practice

religion as they want or are there constitutional rights being infringed upon because of separation of church and state and this is public school?

LINDA WERTHEIMER, JOURNALIST AND AUTHOR: I`d like to unpack this.

[20:35:00] Yes, they have a constitutional right to pray however they would like at school and they can bring a bible to school and that kind of thing.

But school-sponsored religion is not legal. So if the school is running the club, if the teacher is running the club, that`s a problem.

BANFIELD: And that`s the only problem here? And it is interesting because nobody is 100 percent certain at this point exactly what the dynamics were,

whether teachers were being paid. The school certainly did say, you know, we are supposed to have outsiders running that and to our knowledge we

didn`t do that so they are sort of (inaudible) to this.

But ultimately, Amanda, this wasn`t mandatory and it was happening before school. And if a Jewish group wanted to start a Thomas (ph) study, they

could have done that. If someone wanted to start Quran study, they presumably could have done that, too. What was the problem here?

AMANDA KNIEF, NATIONAL LEGAL AND PUBLIC POLICY DIRECTOR FOR AMERICAN ATHEIST: I think that there is a fundamental misunderstanding. The Freedom

From Religion Foundation would send a letter, said that they were concerned that they weren`t -- the school was not following the law, the equal access

act which govern house schools, secondary schools do clubs and so they were asking, are you in compliance?

And the school did not feel they were. And that is why they stopped it. Because they were in violation of the law. Once they fixed that, I might

surprise you, but I`m fine if they want to start it up again. We have no problem with that.

BANFIELD: And Linda, do you think, I`ll ask you to sort of look at the dynamics of how things play out these days when it comes to religious

study. And certainly in the time that we are in right now. Do you think that there would have been this outcry if the group that was holding the

study was doing Quranic study? Do you think that people would have been fighting against the Quranic study or for the Quranic study before school?

WERTHEIMER: There is no doubt in my mind that they would have been fighting against the Quranic study in school. In my book, I looked at several

controversies over lessons on Islam done as part of world religion classes. And those same schools were also teaching about Judaism. They are teaching

about Christianity.

They are teaching about Hinduism. Those religions were not what caused the controversy. What caused the controversy were lesson on Islam. And this was

even before this year. And it was related to to the growth of Islam phobia in our country since 9/11.

BANFIELD: What do you think -- do you think Linda makes a point this isn`t so much about religion, it`s about which religion?

KNIEF: I think that it is much more common to have Christian student clubs in schools than it is to have other religions or atheist groups and that

speaks to the fact that one, we are still majority Christian country and we are also as a country much more comfortable with Christianity in our

schools.

And that`s why we have laws like the Equal Access Act that protect all school clubs for being treated the same. So if somebody wanted to start a

Quranic club, they could. You can`t discriminate on viewpoint according to the Supreme Court.

BANFIELD: So, Linda, I`m super curious about how one navigates delicately through a lot of these issues when it comes to teaching kids about world

religion. Because there is the necessity to know what the hell is going on in the world, but at the same time, it can be looked at as though, hey,

hey, hey, quit preaching. Where does that line get drawn and how often is it drawn in properly?

WERTHEIMER: Yes, so there is an expression I like to say that I`m not the one who created it called teach don`t preach about religion in public

school. And let`s use Christmas as an example. So if you have a Christmas concert in a public school and that`s all you have and you`re only doing

Christmas songs, it has no connection to any academic reason, some people would say you`re promoting one religion.

And if you have a pastor coming into a school and saying a prayer at a Christmas assembly which has what happened to my public school, that is

preaching. If you are teaching about Christmas as part of a lesson on Christianity, that`s actually legal as long as you`re not saying you should

believe that Jesus is the son of God and that Christmas is his birthday. If you say, you know, some Christians believe or Christians generally believe

this, that.

BANFIELD: Amanda, do you think that gets promotion? I`m just curious. I mean, I would that is an easy thing to jiggle with in a classroom without

people knowing a difference.

KNIEF: The Supreme Court has said that students in secondary schools and then also primary schools are more susceptible to be influenced by

authority figures like teachers and staffs and principals. And so we try to be very careful and make sure the schools are not doing that kind of

preaching.

[20:40:00] You`d be surprised at how often that line is crossed and so groups like ours, American Atheist and FFRF, try to work hard to educate

teachers and principals about.

BANFIELD: I`m actually not surprised. I`m not surprised in the least. I`m surprised that we don`t have this story every single night. Real quickly. I

want to bring Danny and Joey, the legal minds. Were you surprised to the story?

JACKSON: Yes, I was. The program is perfectly legal. Perfectly legal. Here is why. You have the establishment, the government can`t sponsor religion.

As an alternative, the government cannot interfere with the religion. As long as the school is doing it, it`s an elective process. People are

deciding to participate, They are allowed to participate before school.

BANFIELD: Jump in here, because the school was actually part of the organization.

JACKSON: So what?

BANFIELD: Even outside.

JACKSON: So what?

(LAUGHTER)

CEVALLOS: What you have remember is that not all property is equal. There is a difference between a park, there is difference between your front lawn

as private property and schools, which are a limited public forum.

And the rules are a little different here according to the Supreme Court. When you are in a limited public forum, the school or the government has a

little more leeway in discriminating against what kind of speech goes on.

BANFIELD: I`m hearing that Amanda has something to add to that. What do you say, Amanda?

KNIEF: What I am saying is that the school can`t sponsor it. It has either be the students themselves.

JACKSON: The school is not sponsoring it, Amanda.

KNIEF: Well, that`s what we were asking.

JACKSON: Most respectfully.

KNIEF: That`s what we were asking.

JACKSON: Most respectfully, Amanda. The school is not sponsoring it. The fact is.

KNIEF: But you just said the school could and that is not true. And that`s what FFR was asking is, who is sponsoring it? If it`s coming from the

students, that`s fine. It just can`t be lead by the school. And that is why they stopped it to make sure they are components.

JACKSON: No. There is a fundamental misunderstanding.

KNIEF: And I think it is on your part.

JACKSON: The school is not.

KNIEF: This is what I do for a living. And I`m telling you.

JACKSON: Okay. Well, I`m a lawyer for a living, too. I went to law school and I`ve been practicing for a significant period of time.

KNIEF: But it doesn`t mean you know this part.

JACKSON: The fact is lawyers can disagree.

KNIEF: Yes, you can.

JACKSON: No, but what it does mean is that you can`t say this is your area and therefore you have created license to know everything. I believe you`re

wrong. And the reason I do, it doesn`t have to do with the school allowing participants, students to do it, they are doing it off school time. They

are not disrupting school services.

KNIEF: It still can`t be sponsored by the school. And that`s fine.

JACKSON: The school is not sponsoring it and as a result of that, I think it should play now.

BANFIELD: I got to jump in.

JACKSON: You do not have a monopoly on the constitution. I think constitution allows you to practice your religion. That`s what they`re

doing. Teachers are not mandating that they do it. They do it because they want to do. As a result of that, it`s lawful. Thank you, Amanda.

BANFIELD: I only have to jump in because I don`t have any more time. But, you know, this is why they call it opinions. When courts weigh in and make

decisions, they call them opinions. But I appreciate the both of you. You`re good at your jobs, may I just say?

(LAUGHTER)

CEVALLOS: You know what they say about opinion.

JACKSON: You`re great at yours.

(LAUGHTER)

BANFIELD: Thank you, Linda Wertheimer, Amanda Knief, and of course Danny and Joey. You know that old saying, guys, like right now it`s 5:00

somewhere?

(LAUGHTER)

BANFIELD: I need a drink.

JACKSON: (inaudible) exactly.

CEVALLOS: 8:42, yeah.

JACKSON: Yeah.

(LAUGHTER)

BANFIELD: Turns out there is this babysitter in Louisiana who figured that 11:15 a.m. was kind of like 5:00 somewhere and now she`s in a big world of

hurt and so is the bachelor, Chris Soules. Details on why he`s got some trouble ahead in a moment.

[20:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: So you`re sitting in traffic and you look out your windshield on your boring commute and then you see this. This is what the commuters in

Washington saw yesterday. A plane falling out of the sky. The investigators tell CNN affiliate KCPQ engine troubles, right from the start.

Forced the pilot to land on a road not far from the airport but it clipped the power line on the way. Hit streetlight, ruptured fuel cell, that`s why

the big boom. So the real miracle here, the pilot had a passenger and both of them were unhurt.

(START VIDEO CLIP)

AMANDA HAYES, WITNESS: The wing clipped the side of our van as it was going over us. We just got down behind the dashboard and waited. Thankful, yeah.

Just thankful to be still be here and nothing happened, that I`m not stretched, burned, bruised, anything like that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: It`s just unbelievable. Chris Soules, pretty famous guy. Because he was the bachelor, this was back in 2015 if you watched the show. Oh, so

romantic. Kind of not. Last week in Iowa, police say he was driving a pickup that collided with a tractor. The driver of that tractor was killed.

But now prosecutors have dropped somewhat of a bombshell.

In newly filed court documents, they say that Mr. Soules was seen purchasing alcohol beverages at a convenience store just before the

accident. And that those beverages were allegedly found empty and partially empty in and around his vehicle. Here is some of the 911 call Mr. Soules

made right after the crash.

(START VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is anybody injured?

CHRIS SOULES, REALITY TELEVISION PERSONALITY: Yes. I rear-ended a guy on a tractor.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Okay. So it`s a truck. A car versus tractor?

SOULES: Yes. Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Okay. And who was injured?

SOULES: The man on the tractor.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What`s your name?

SOULES: My name is Chris Soules.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Okay. Is he breathing, sir?

SOULES: I can`t tell. He doesn`t appear to be.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: He was dead. Ultimately, the former bachelor found out he would face felony charge of leaving the scene of the accident. I want you to hear

another part of that 911 call that he made.

(START VIDEO CLIP)

SOULES: You guys on your way? Can I call you back really quick?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yep, you can call me back.

SOULES: Okay. Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[20:50:00] BANFIELD: Hear that? Can I call you back? Sheriff`s office said he never did call back. His attorneys say the emergency responders arrived

on the scene shortly after the 911 call and that Chris Soules remained with them for several more minutes before ultimately returning to his home.

In Slidell, Louisiana, Brenda Brown is charged with DUI and child endangerment too after wrecking her SUV and injuring the two kids she was

supposed to be babysitting. That`s right. Police say that she was driving drunk. It was 11:15 a.m. Neither of the little kids buckled up at all. Both

children badly injured. The 4-year-old fractured skull. 1-year-old broken leg and shoulder. The alleged drunk driver also was driving with a

suspended license. Watch your babysitters, please.

Workers compensation is designed to protect two parties, workers and employers. You get hurt on the job, the company pays. And you agree to seek

legal action. This sounds really simple, right? Except for this case in Fort Lauderdale. That`s Sheyla White and falling from the ceiling, landing

on her desk is sprinkler head. But look closely, because she picks it up and she pauses and gives a little thought and then whack! Hits her own

head. Ouch.

Sheyla then filed a workers compensation claim after the run in with the sprinkler head and her employers and insurance company got suspicious,

maybe because it fell against the head and not at the top of the head, I don`t know. They asked to see the video. This is what they saw. Sheyla

ended up convicted of workers compensation fraud and she`s on probation for 18 months.

She is paying $750, $758, I believe, restitution. You can`t do this kind of thing. Even if they didn`t have the video. Do you think that if you got hit

this way instead of this way, the forensics might do something?

CEVALLOS: The most amazing thing about that to me is the time between the sprinkler falling and her hitting herself in the forehead. She had to be

sitting at work thinking, how can I fake a workers comp claim?

(LAUGHTER)

CEVALLOS: I mean, to think of that that quickly, I don`t think -- I don`t have neurons fast enough to think of that in my brain. As soon as it fell,

it must have been the third thing on her mind at least for her to be able to think, well, now I can get hurt right in the floor. But what she didn`t

think about is that most of us don`t sit at work staring up at the sprinklers all day because it appears to be at her forehead.

BANFIELD: Expect for you.

CEVALLOS: Yes, I`m day dreaming certainly often here.

BANFIELD: All those neurons floating around.

(LAUGHTER)

JACKSON: Floating around, doing his research.

CEVALLOS: That`s right, yes.

BANFIELD: Okay. Talk about being at the right place at the right time. We`re going to show you why a Topeka cop is nothing short of a hero, the

body cam video you do not want to miss.

[20:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: I love it when we get stories like this. Particularly because your dad was a cop, okay?

JACKSON: Amen.

BANFIELD: There is this police officer in Topeka who just happened to be out on patrol on Sunday afternoon. He was looking for some suspects but

instead, he spotted a little 4-year-old boy who was alone and looked to be getting into some serious danger. He`s on the shore of a pond and if you

see in the spotlight, he falls in, and the officer just races to the rescue.

(START VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I need some help. Call 911 for me. (inaudible) Central Park. Got a kid that fell into the pond. I just got him.

(CRYING)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I got a civilian, I got him out. Fell in the pond, almost drowned. Got him out. Get him on the ground right now. I got the EMR

coming. You got your jacket? Take your jacket off for him, please.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Look at the little guy. He`s okay. Here is what is so unbelievable. He was just there looking for suspects. He didn`t get a call

that there was a little guy in distress, he just happened to be there. The boy has autism. Got out of his house without his parents knowing, just

apparently recently learned how to unlock the door. Officer Aaron Bulmer when asked, are you the hero? Nope. This guy says no, just doing my job.

Just doing my job. I got goose bumps when I heard his voice. Did you?

CEVALLOS: Yeah, I did, I did.

JACKSON: It`s a divine intervention. You know, when police officers do things like that, it`s just so representative of what so many of them do

every single day and are not really rewarded in the way that they should be. And so I`m the first to call out the bad apples, but I also want to be

the first to give kudos and thanks to people like that who are the true heroes that protect us, keep us safe, and do great things for communities.

BANFIELD: Danny, can you imagine what those parents are thinking about now?

CEVALLOS: I hope they are thinking how incredibly lucky they are that there was an officer walking by at the time. You know, so often as criminal

defense attorneys, our clients are in the wrong place at the wrong time. This is one of those moments where an officer was in the right place.

BANFIELD: Amen.

CEVALLOS: . at the right time and did the right thing.

BANFIELD: Officer Bulmer, you are a hero, period. I don`t care whether you think you were just doing your job. Thank you, everyone, for watching.

Thank you, guys, for being spirited tonight. We`ll have you back.

[21:00:00] We`ll see you again at 8:00 tomorrow night for PRIMETIME JUSTICE. Stay tuned. "FORENSIC FILES" is next.

END