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WORLD RIGHT NOW WITH HALA GORANI
London Ringleader Was Intensely Investigated; Attacker's Acquaintance Gives Insight To CNN; Police Shoot Attacker At Notre Dame Cathedral; French Minister: Attacker Said "This Is For Syria"; U.S. President Trump: We Need A Travel Ban; Comey Could Give Explosive Testimony Thursday; Qatar's Foreign Minister On Diplomatic Crisis; Trump Meets With House, Senate Leadership; UAE Diplomat Speaks on Rift with Qatar; U.S. Contractor Charged with Leaking Intelligence; London Attack Victims' Stories Come to Light; Terror Attacks a Top Election Issue; Female Activist Arrested in Saudi Arabia; Trump Urges Voters: "Believe Me." Aired 3-4p ET
Aired June 6, 2017 - 15:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everybody. Welcome Region to a special edition of the program. I'm Hala Gorani. We are live CNN
And we begin this hour with breaking exclusive information about the London terror investigation. Our terrorism analyst, Paul Cruickshank has the new
details. And we are learning more about the prime suspect. The suspected ringleader, Khuram Shazad Butt. What can you tell us?
PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: That's right. What we are learning from counterterrorism sources here in the UK is back in 2015 when
police really started investigating him. He was considered one of the potentially most dangerous people in the U.K., Hala.
He was considered a high priority for investigations. They put a lot of resources into this using the whole package of surveillance methods that
they have to try and look into his activities.
Very, very concerned about him in 2015, but as a result of all those efforts, they weren't able to find any evidence that he was plotting a
terror attack of any sorts and therefore things became deprioritized in terms of their investigations after that.
But they treated this very, very seriously indeed. The whole package of all the measures they have at their disposal were used. So when you hear
that kind of phrase, you think of wiretapping, covert surveillance.
You think of all of the resources that British counterterrorism can put into play to try to look into whether somebody poses a threat. As a result
of all that, they weren't able to find any evidence to go after him for terrorism crimes.
GORANI: But was it because he they thought he wasn't a threat anymore or could not find anything on him, which are two different things?
CRUICKSHANK: Well, they could not find anything when it came to sort of terrorism side of things, in terms of making challenges and of course, they
have also saw other people, 3,000 people that they have to look on as well as 20,000 people, residual number of people that they have investigated
over the years.
And so in these sorts of investigations after -- if they don't find something for some period of time, of course, they've got to then move on
to a certain degree. But he was considered back in 2015 a really serious players within this pro-ISIS grouping in the U.K. called (inaudible). And
really back in --
GORANI: And he was featured -- we were discussing this yesterday in that "Jihadis Next Door" documentary that aired on Channel 4, so he was very
CRUICKSHANK: He was very publicly visible, but there was also other things coming into British intelligence, British security services at that time to
make them very wise that he could pose a threat, that he had very, very hard lines using these.
And all of this came as a result of a major drive by British counterterrorism services in the autumn of 2014 when ISIS was gaining
ground in Syria and then Iraq to go after this group, (inaudible), to shape the trades, to disrupt it, to dismantle it.
And the decision was taken that they were going to go after this group in any way that they could. So they looked at all these individuals who are a
potential concern and if they -- they've looked for ways to prosecute them for even minor crimes, for traffic offenses, for petty theft, anything that
they could go --
GORANI: Like getting Al Capone for tax evasion.
CRUICKSHANK: That's exactly. That was phrase actually that was used by one official and as a result of that, Hala, they actually made dozens and
dozens of arrests. They took these people out of circulation and they felt that was the way to sort of mitigate some of the threat from this group.
And so they really did go off hard after them, but when it came to this one very intense investigation into the future London attacker, they weren't at
the time able to find evidence that he was plotting.
GORANI: So was it -- this is a big failure then, right, because he was on the radar. They went after him. He was very public and two years later,
he is responsible for an atrocity in Central London and killing innocent civilians.
CRUICKSHANK: There are certainly many questions for authorities in in the wake of this, given the fact that he was so centrally on the radar screen.
He was not a virtual figure in the world of extremism in the U.K. He was a major player.
As a result of intense investigations, they were not able to find evidence that he was behaving in a criminal way when it came to terrorism and so you
know, that was a big factor in the fact that he was downgraded to somewhat as a priority after that by the security services.
[15:05:09]With the threat as it is, they can't monitor everybody all the time. They can't carry on these investigations at maximum all the time.
That is not possible.
GORANI: It takes dozens of people just for one suspect to be monitored around the clock, seven days a week, and there just isn't that kind of
staffing. Thanks very much, Paul Cruickshank.
Our international diplomatic editor, Nic Robertson, is also learning more about this man from someone who knew him. What did this acquaintance of
Khuram Shazad Butt tell you?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Well, this is someone -- his name is Jordan Horner. He was a former extremist, a former radical
who moved in very similar circles to Khuram Butt. He knew Khuram Butt and I was asking him, you know, about Khuram Butt, what sort of person was he?
And he told me that just three weeks ago, just three weeks ago he bumped into Khuram Butt at the gym, but unlike what we have seen the video that we
have seen him in that Channel 4 documentary, the stills pictures that have been released of him, he had his beard very neatly trimmed.
He was not wearing the sort of Arabic style clothing that he would normally been wearing that he had very much changed his appearance. This is what he
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JORDAN HORNER, REFORMED RADICAL: It was nothing and that's why it's a shock to me and a shock to the people that knew him he will do something
like that, and as well, you know, on a personal level I knew that he had (inaudible) baby daughter a few weeks or a few months ago so
psychologically I can't understand how man who is just, you know, had a baby is going to go -- you know someone who just experienced and witnessed
new life coming to the world is then want to go and take life from other people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTSON: So I think perhaps the significant thing there was that he changed his appearance to it appears on one hand you could say that it
changed his appearance to blend in, because he been very overtly generally most the time having a longer beard and dressing in, you know, if you want
to call it, Arabic garb as people sometimes describe it here in a way that would stand out. He looked three weeks ago as if he was trying to blend
GORANI: And -- but this acquaintance of Khuram Butt also had something to say about other members of the community that he in his mind, you were
telling me this, would have been probably -- he would have thought of out before thinking of Khuram Butt in terms of who might be most likely to
commit this type of terrorist act.
ROBERTSON: Yes, sure. Jordan Horner was in those extreme circles and he went to jail for some of the things he did on the streets of London. He
came out of jail and he was deradicalized after he came out of jail. I know the man who deradicalized him. He was one of the most effective
Jordan Horner still stays in that circle of deradicalized people. He no longer sort of associates with those really radical people like Khuram
Butt, but I asked him that question as you were just saying there.
You know if somebody had told you that somebody you knew had committed this attack, he said I would have named tens or hundreds of other people before
I would have named Khuram Butt. He said --
GORANI: Hundreds, hundreds of other people?
ROBERTSON: Hundreds, tens --
GORANI: That's very interesting.
ROBERTSON: Tens or hundreds of other people. You know, he said, you just -- so I said to him, well, how do you MI-5 managed to miss him and he said,
look, you know, essentially for somebody like me who is in the community who understands these -- knows these radical views of these people, and he
said even I could not pick him out as being the one that was going to go --
GORANI: Why not? It's very difficult for me to understand. You see him in the documentary unfurling this Jihadi flag in Regent Park. He's hardly
under the radar. He's a follower of Anjam Choudry (ph) who is in jail for terrorism recruitment. How is this guy last on the list of potential
suspects? I do not get it.
ROBERTSON: Well -- he said this, Jordan Horner said to me, he said, look, the police say that there were 3,000. I know many, many, many, many, and
you know, it's estimated that half those people would have come back after the 800 that went off to Iraq and Syria, half of those have come back and
half of them were in London.
And he said look, you know, I recognized that for the police and the intelligence services, Horner said he believes they are doing a good job,
but even he says this is essentially an almost impossible scenario and situation for them. They are just too many people to follow.
So I think when you have somebody on the inside, so to speak, saying that one needs to take it the scale of the problem seriously and the issue that
there is a further potential for this is being very, very real.
GORANI: Well, you certainly then need more people dealing with it. Certainly more people monitoring all of these suspects that takes tens of
thousands of them at the government level and counterterrorism agencies and those numbers just are not there now. Thanks very much, Nic Robertson, for
[15:10:05]Now security is on high alert too across the channel in France after an incident at the Notre Dame Cathedral. Police shot and injured a
man who attacked a police officer with a hammer. They say he was also armed with knives. The attacker said this is for Syria reportedly,
according to the French interior minister.
This was the scene in Notre Dame Cathedral as police asked everyone to put their hands up, presumably to prove they are not holding a weapon, but
these are just ordinary people there to admire the inside of that beautiful monument.
Let go live to the French capital, CNN's Jim Bittermann is there. Now if we describe a knife attack as low tech, I mean, a hammer attack -- what
more do we know about this person and he was shot, but he was not killed by the police, right?
JIM BITTERMANN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right, exactly. And police believed they are going to be able to get some more
information out of him when he is sufficiently recovered. He is in the hospital right now.
Now it's been reported here that he is 40 years old, even though he's listed as an Algerian students on his ID card that they found on him. In
any case, what prompted him to attack this three-man patrol is really not clear, except that he cried, this is for Syria, as the interior minister
Indicating that he was trying to execute some vengeance on authorities here with the attack. He struck a 22-year-old police officer in the neck. The
police officer is not badly injured and one of the colleagues of the police officer immediately pull out his sidearm and shot twice, apparently
according to witnesses, and injured the attacker in the thorax, in the chest area.
And that is where he is tonight recovering from the injuries that he suffered. Now Gerard Collomb, the new interior minister here was quick to
appear on the scene and among other things, he noted that this is the third attack against security forces in France over the last three months.
Here's what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GERARD COLLOMB, FRENCH INTERIOR MINISTER (through translator): We see once again the police, the forces, the security forces in uniform, are being
attacked in our country like in many other European countries. They are victims of this threat, this terrorist threat, which in the name of a
criminal ideology deciding to target the forces of order.
But thank God because of this quick, good response by the police, they were able to protect themselves and the tourists around the church.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BITTERMANN: Collomb also said that there is going to be a defense counsel meeting tomorrow morning. It was previously scheduled in fact after the
London attacks as the new president here is trying to come grips with the idea of terrorism, what he can do to better prevent it.
He has a few things on his mind that he could do among other things, extend the emergency powers that he has already after July, it was supposed to run
out then, but they extend them further and some new legislation perhaps.
We are not clear on what that is, but it might be having something to do with better surveillance and then also to establish this crisis terrorism
cell that a task force that would fight terrorism and also bring together the intelligence agencies to better coordinate -- Hala.
GORANI: All right, Jim Bittermann live in Paris, thanks very much.
Donald Trump is pushing harder than ever for his travel ban after the London terrorist attack and he is undercutting his own aides to do it.
They have been hedging on what to call the proposal as it is challenged in the courts.
But in his most recent tweet on the subject, the American president wrote, "That's right. We need a travel ban for certain dangerous countries, not
some politically correct term that won't help us protect our people!"
In case anybody missed the message there is even a video on Mr. Trump's Facebook page, pairing a series of his travel ban tweets with patriotic
Let's more now from White House reporter, Stephen Collinson. He is live in Washington. We were discussing yesterday how as far as the White House has
appealed to the Supreme Court of the United States, the fact that the president keeps tweeting again and again and again about this and calling
it a travel ban means that he is hurting himself and his effort to get this thing through.
STEPHEN COLLINSON, CNN POLITICS SENIOR REPORTER: That's right. I think, Hala, this is another occasion of the president undermining not just his
own staff, but his own political goals with his Twitter account and his unwillingness to sort of reign him in.
You'll remember the White House briefing yesterday, Sarah Huckabee Sanders, his deputy press spokesman was basically telling reporters, it does not
matter what you call this. It is no big deal.
Then a few hours later time, Trump comes out with that tweet and says yes it is a travel ban.
[15:15:03]Why this is a problem is this makes it much harder to convince the courts that the president is not discriminating against Muslims with
these restrictions on entries of six predominantly Muslim countries.
George Conway, who is a prominent Washington lawyer and is the husband of Kellyanne Conway, a top White House adviser, was tweeting yesterday that
the president was undermining his chances of getting the stay on the travel ban lifted by the Supreme Court with this kind of language.
So it is yet another example of the chaos in the White House, the impossibility that his aides face in trying to drive a political message
when Donald Trump can just come out and in 140 characters completely undermine everything they do.
GORANI: Also is the court going to look at the fact that these six countries in particular are not necessarily the countries from which most
terrorism directed that the United States has come, will that be a factor? I mean, not included on this list is Egypt, for instance, or Saudi Arabia
or other countries.
And then included on the -- or Pakistan, where the wife of the San Bernardino attack came from, and yet other countries are on the list, will
that be a factor?
COLLINSON: Yes, well, that was one of the issues that was raised by lawyers challenging this travel ban in the lower courts and those cases are
now moving further and further up and will get to the Supreme Court. So it is quite possible that the arguments of the lawyers in the Supreme Court
will narrow those arguments.
And of course, as you say, there is also a political question, if Donald Trump is saying that this is going to make Americans safer, why these
countries, some of whom are U.S. allies not on the list and some other countries are.
And of course, the most recent attacks we've seen in Europe and the United States have been from homegrown or radicalized people and they are not
outside terrorist. So -- still stretches the bounds of logic about what how it would even work.
GORANI: Right exactly and that's one of the issues perhaps that the court will consider. Now let us talk about the testimony of the former head of
the FBI Comey that is going to happen on Thursday. What is the expectation there?
COLLINSON: The expectations in Washington reaching fever pitch. This is going to be one of the biggest Washington occasions in decades.
Effectively what we are going to see playing out in front of us is James Comey, the fired head of the FBI talking about conversations he had with
the president, which Democrats say are evidence and a tantamount to, you know, a sign that President Trump is trying to obstruct justice in the
Comey will be asked if he felt under pressure from Trump about reports that Trump demanded a loyalty pledge from him. He'll also be asked about
whether Donald Trump's assertions that Comey assured him three times that he was not under investigation are true.
And finally, he'd be asked about whether Trump asked him to go easy on the former and the fired national security advisor, Michael Flynn, over the
Russia question. So this is going to be a huge occasion.
Comey had made play he is willing to talk about those conversations. I think he will be asked whether he believes that Donald Trump was engaging
in a pattern obstruction of justice. I do not think he will go there because it's no longer his job to decide those facts -- Hala.
GORANI: All right, Stephen Collinson, thanks very much.
Every news network and in fact, every network has announced plans, coverage plans, of this James Comey testimony in Washington, D.C., and something
tells me a lot of people will be watching. Thank you, Stephen. We'll speak soon.
President Trump didn't just tweet about the travel ban today, he also sent shockwaves throughout the gulf weighing in on the crisis attacking Qatar
and upending potentially decades of American foreign policy in the region. We'll look at that.
And a little bit later, a young contractor with a top secret clearance is charged with revealing classified material about Russian hackers sending it
to a news organization. We'll tell you more about her after the break.
GORANI: Did the U.S. President Donald Trump just change a decades-long relationship with Qatar in two tweets? The U.S. has a military base,
10,000 stationed soldiers and just a few weeks ago, he describe the relationship between the two countries as, quote, "Extremely good."
But on Twitter, he seems to be taking credit for the diplomatic freeze-out of Qatar by several countries including Saudi Arabia. He said, "It's good
to see his visit with Saudi Arabia and other countries is already paying off."
He added, "They said they would take a hardline on funding extremism and all references were pointing to Qatar." Earlier, CNN spoke exclusively to
the Qatari foreign minister for his reaction to that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MOHAMMED BIN ABDULRAHMAN AL THANI, QATAR FOREIGN MINISTER: President Trump say that he is talking about combatting funding of Islamist ideology and
all of us, we are combatting the funding of any terrorist groups and actually during the conversation with the president of the United States
between him and His Highness, he has raised this issue that this is -- the funding of terrorism needs to be stopped by different countries.
And he told us that a lot of reports that mentioning Qatar and Saudi and other countries, and we told him that those reports based on media
information, which is not really based on evidence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: That's the foreign Minister there. Obviously, there is potentially another reason why these Gulf countries are unhappy with Qatar.
Perhaps it is overtures to Iran, perhaps also it's Al Jazeera, the Qatari- funded news channel that is torn in the side of many regional leaders and has been.
Let's go live to Dubai and speak to John Defterios. He has been speaking to the other side of the diplomatic crisis in the UAE. John, the UAE has
joined that group of GCC countries cutting ties abruptly it has to be said with Qatar. You spoke to the country's foreign minister, what did he say?
JOHN DEFTERIOS, CNN MONEY EMERGING MARKETS EDITOR: Yes. In fact, Hala, I think the two interviews conducted today here in the Gulf really marked the
lines in the sand, if you will, on Qatar's foreign policy. The coalition, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Bahrain, and Egypt, say this goes actually back to 2014
when Sheikh Tamim (ph) of Qatar took the throne from his father.
And they say he broke their trust, particularly when they say it pertains to terrorism funding. I spoke to the top UAE diplomat, who is leading the
charge on this coalition, this is what he had to say about why this boiled over in the last week.
GORANI: All right, John, we'll get back to that sound in a moment, but we have new video just in from the White House where the American president is
meeting with House and Senate Republican leadership. He is trying to get a few legislative items through. Let's listen to what he has to say.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: -- already added 1 million new jobs and it's going up very fast. You see the new reports
coming out, going up very, very fast, and approved historic increase in military spending. We have increased the stock market values and values of
corporations on the public markets by $3.4 trillion since November 8th.
I've signed 36 bills into law and repealed one job crushing regulation after another. In fact, the House incentives and a record number of
resolutions that eliminate regulations to my desk for signature saving our economy many billions of dollars annually.
[15:25:03]And in fact, based on the numbers we just, the actual numbers approximately $18 billion we saved annually in all of the bills that I've
signed. So that's a great job, great job to each and everybody.
Together we'll fight to promise measures on the border and we have fought very successfully. We have tough policies to keep deadly drugs and the
vicious gangs out of the country. MS-13 is being taken care of at very, very rapid clip by general now Secretary Kelly, who's done an incredible
job, really incredible job.
And we are down the reduction on people pouring through our border down 78 percent as of now, 78 percent. It used to be if you got down 1 percent
that was a good job, but down 78 percent that's before we have the wall.
The wall will be a great help and that will happen believe me. My administrations is also working with Congress to rebuild our
infrastructure. We will be discussing that at great -- in great depth next week with Gary Cohn and Steve Mnuchin and with Mike Pence and everybody
else working on it.
And to pass a massive tax cut, which will be the biggest tax cut in our country's history if it's passed the way we would like to have it passed.
It will be the biggest tax cut in our country's history and it will stir business like never before.
At the core of this agenda is repealing and replacing the disaster known as Obamacare. Average Obamacare premiums have more than doubled from 2013 to
2017, including an increase of 203 percent in Alaska. Wow, that's a new one.
I always use Arizona at 116. I got stuck at 116 now we're at 203. That's pretty big, 123 in Louisiana isn't the new numbers, folks. I think after a
year of talking about 116 percent in Arizona, you'll be happy to hear we have some new numbers.
And 176 percent in North Carolina, great state, insurance carriers are fleeing and leaving many Americans with only one insurer or even no
insurers to choose from and that's been happening now in numerous states.
And just this afternoon, we learned the last statewide insurer in the great state of Ohio is leaving. So they don't have any insurers. That means
another 20 counties in the state of Ohio will have no healthcare plan.
If Congress does not act to save Americans from this Democrat inflicted catastrophe, next year is only going to get worse, it's going to get a lot
worse. I don't know how it can get worse than 203 percent, but I'm sure the Democrats will find a way.
Almost every major insurers already pulled out for 2018. The House took an important first step to rescue Americans from this calamity. When Paul,
you and your group, Steve and everybody passed the American Healthcare Act, and that was a very, very long and difficult negotiation.
But it really gives a great print and a great concept to Mitch, and now the Senate, I am sure, will follow suit and get a bill across the finish line
this summer. That will be great healthcare for Americans and I'm looking forward to seeing it.
(Inaudible) seeing it. So we are working very hard on massive tax cuts and we are working very, very hard on the healthcare and I think we are going
to have some very pleasant surprises for a lot of people.
So I would like to thank the leadership for being with us and Mike Pence, you've been great and I appreciate you being here, Steve, great. I
appreciated Jared. Jared has actually become much more famous than me.
I'm a little bit upset about that. So I want to thank everybody very much for being here and let's get to work. We're going to get to work and get
it done. Thank you all very much.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President, what message do you have to Jim Comey ahead of his testimony?
PRESIDENT TRUMP: I wish him luck. Thank you, everybody.
GORANI: The U.S. president there touting his administration's accomplishments and making a series of promises to the American people that
the bill that would, in fact this massive tax cut bill, who he said, the president would do one of the biggest tax cuts in history would go through.
Promising an increase in infrastructure spending also promising to build the wall between the United States and Mexico not giving any details on how
cutting taxes and increasing spending would work in this particular case.
[15:30:04] Promising to go ahead and continue the effort to repeal and replace Obamacare. He was flanked there by top Republicans, including the
Speaker Paul Ryan. He mentioned Jared Kushner, his son-in-law, saying he's become more famous than me. You'll remember that's something he said about
James Comey back in January.
Speaking of James Comey, he'll be testifying, of course, on Capitol Hill about his meetings with the President. The big question surrounding those
meetings, did the President ask him to put the kibosh on that investigation into potential ties between the Trump campaign and Russia? Well, he said
he wished him luck in his testimony. That from the President just moments ago at the White House.
We'll have a lot more from D.C. in a moment. You're watching THE WORLD RIGHT NOW.
Coming up, more details on the people who has their lives taken so tragically during the terror attack Saturday in London. We will be right
GORANI: All right. Before we went to the U.S. President there meeting with top Republicans in Washington, we were speaking with John Defterios
about that unprecedented diplomatic rift in the Gulf region with many GCC countries abruptly cutting ties with Qatar.
We heard from the Qatari Foreign Minister, but you spoke to the UAE Foreign Minister about the move. Tell us what he had to say.
JOHN DEFTERIOS, CNNMONEY EMERGING MARKETS EDITOR: Well, in fact, Hala, this links back to the White House. We heard from President Trump on
domestic policy, but after his visit recently to Saudi Arabia and gathering the GCC Summit while he was there, this coalition against Qatar is feeling
rather emboldened, particularly Saudi Arabia with the $110 billion of defense contract.
So I spoke to the Minister of State of Foreign Affairs for the UAE, which has led this coalition, shaped the policy going forward, and he said it
links back to 2014. And for the first time, spoke up publicly about terrorism financing. Let's take a listen to Minister Gargash.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANWAR GARGASH, MINISTER OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS, UNITED ARAB EMIRATES: I think it's an accumulation of Qatar's behavior in the region and
especially, I would say, over the last period. Very, very huge logistical financial support for extremist groups to support also to some terrorist
organizations, such as Nostra and some organizations in Libya and in other areas such as the Sinai and other areas. And this is really at the crux of
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[15:34:58] DEFTERIOS: And many were asking why now by this coalition going forward, Hala. They suggested -- this came from the Minister today -- the
tipping point was the $1 billion in ransom, another money that was actually gone into Iraq and also to Syria for the hostages taken by Iraqis, which
Minister Gargash was suggesting have an al Qaeda DNA.
And after speaking to him, Hala, I think this may be a long road back. They have an air blockade. They have blockage on ports and even road
transportation. And they look like they want a road map coming out of these, something much more defined in the agreement that they shook over
back in 2014 with the 37-year-old emir of Qatar. Back to you.
GORANI: All right. John Defterios, thanks very much. Appreciate it. A U.S. contractor with top-secret security clearance is accused of leaking
classified material and sending it to an online media outlet. Twenty-five- year-old Reality Leigh Winner is charges with removing classified material from a government facility and mailing it to a reporter at "The Intercept."
Sources tell CNN the leaked material is an NSA report that details an attempted cyber attack by Russian military intelligence into voting systems
in the U.S. just days before last year's election. If convicted, Winner faces up to 10 years in prison.
Well, from Watergate to Edward Snowden, leaks to reporters can be complicated and a complicated part of covering politics and corruption.
This latest arrest and President Trump's condemnation of unnamed source is again putting leaks in the limelight, obviously. Brian Stelter, our senior
media correspondent and host of CNN's "RELIABLE SOURCES" joins me now.
So, Brian, let me start with -- I mean, usually, either the leaker covers his or her tracks better or it takes a lot longer to get to the leaker.
How is it that this woman was caught relatively quickly? How did they connect the dots back to her?
BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Both this woman and the news outlet made some mistakes along the way.
This woman had previously reached out to the Web site, "The Intercept," so when federal went under a computer and her e-mail, they saw that history.
That was an important dot to connect. Most importantly, though, when "The Intercept" received this top-secret document, it showed a copy to the NSA,
trying to verify the authenticity of the document.
According to government prosecutors, they were able to look at the creases in the paper, the use of the paper, the way it was printed, and trace it
back to the facility in Georgia where this woman worked.
They found that only six people had printed out the document, then they found she had been in touch via e-mail with the news outlet, and that was
enough for prosecutors to arrest her.
Now, according to the U.S. government, she did essentially admit to this wrongdoing when she was arrested. We have not heard from her directly,
though. We may in court later this week.
So it is the first leak prosecution of the Trump administration. But this is kind of prosecution, Hala, we would have seen the Obama administration
or another previous administration also undertake.
GORANI: I mean, obviously, the Obama administration, as well, went after leakers in a major way.
STELTER: Oh, yes.
STELTER: Absolutely. And the Obama administration, in almost a dozen different cases, prosecuted leakers.
The difference now is that President Trump is very vocal about it. He is frustrated with the leaks. He wants these leaks investigated. He has
directed his government agencies to do so. Obama was quite about it, whereas Trump is loud about it.
I spoke with a number of intel reporters who say it is definitely a more intense situation now. There's more of a chill in the air. Their sources
are feeling the pressure.
But at the same time, Hala, we are seeing an extraordinary number of leaks from all over the federal government, both of classified information and
also just about incompetence and infighting within the White House. So the leaks continue despite these attempts to prosecute leakers.
GORANI: And are we seeing more leaks or we're just hearing more about the leaks?
STELTER: That's interesting. I mean, I think we are definitely seeing more stories that are attributed to anonymous sources. We are also, I
think, at this moment in time, pay more attention to the issue and Trump is trying to pay more attention to the problem of leaks.
We're in the situation where something like what this woman, Reality Winner, did, it is illegal, but you could also make the case that it's a
public service. To inform the American people about what has been going on with regards to interference in the election. That debate now renewed
because of this arrest and this prosecution.
GORANI: Appreciate it. Brian Stelter in New York.
Manchester police say significant evidence has been found in that terror investigation. This gym bag was found inside a white Nissan car. That car
was seized Friday during the investigation into the May 22nd concert attack. Police are asking the public for any information about these
pieces of evidence, saying, we need to know who was in the car and where it went.
The London terror attack victims were among many enjoying themselves on a pleasant Saturday evening in this great city, but three men suddenly
changed all of that, plowing into innocent pedestrians on the bridge before spreading terror in the streets.
[15:40:03] Now, details of the victims, their heroism and selflessness in some cases, have come to light. Take a look.
GORANI (voice-over): There were from different corners of the world, but their lives converged on London Bridge, Saturday night, in what began as an
evening out and ended in tragedy. The identities of those killed are still emerging.
Twenty-eight-year-old Kirsty Boden, a nurse from Australia, was killed after rushing to help those injured on the bridge. Her family said in a
statement, "We are so proud of Kirsty's brave actions which demonstrate how selfless, caring, and heroic she was, not only on that night, but
throughout all of her life. Kirsty, we love you, and we will miss you dearly."
Londoner James McMullan was at a pub with friends on Saturday and is feared dead. His sister told reporters his bankcard has been found on one of the
MELISSA MCMULLAN, SISTER OF JAMES MCMULLEN: While our pain will never diminish, it is important for us to all carry on with our lives.
GORANI (voice-over): Canadian Chrissy Archibald was killed after being hit by the van on London Bridge. She was with her fiance, Tyler Ferguson. In
a statement, her family said, "She would have no understanding of the callous cruelty that caused her death." They urged people to honor
Chrissy's memory by volunteering at a homeless shelter, saying, "Tell them Chrissy sent you."
Spanish national, Ignacio Echeverria, is still missing. A skateboarding enthusiast, he was last seen near London Bridge defending someone with his
skateboard, according to his brother.
Australian Sara Zelenak is also unaccounted. According Australia's Channel 7 News, she has not been seen since Saturday after she got separated from
Sebastien Belanger from France has also not been seen since Saturday. His girlfriend posted on Facebook that, quote, her "heart is broken and I wish
no one in this world could feel what I feel now."
As the stories are revealed of lives ripped apart, the victims are from multiple countries, and so a devastating loss is being felt far beyond this
GORANI: Well, this topic, this concern, about terrorist attacks might, in fact, motivate some voters to go one way or the other. The British
election taking place on Thursday has focused heavily on them in Manchester and London, not surprisingly. A recent survey found that terrorism is now
the second biggest issue voters are worried about, behind health care.
CNN's Political Contributor Robin Oakley is here.
Hello, Robin. I want to present three potential scenarios to you. One, Theresa May adds seats to her current majority; two, she loses seats but
retains her majority; three, she loses her majority. And let's start with potential scenario number one, she adds seats.
ROBIN OAKLEY, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Perhaps throughout election was supposed to be all about. It's supposed to be the Brexit election, giving
her a stronger power in negotiating with Europe, carrying through the results of the referendum.
As she had said, she was going to go through to 2020 with no election but she was persuaded. And of course, at the point she decided to launch this
election, there was a 24-point gap --
OAKLEY: -- between Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party and the conservatives. So the fact that we can even be talking now about the possibility of her
losing seats is a remarkable comment on the conservative campaign.
GORANI: Could this gamble spectacularly backfire for Theresa May? She might keep her majority but have a smaller majority, in fact, lose seats.
She has (inaudible) now, I believe?
OAKLEY: Something, yes.
OAKLEY: But (inaudible) keeps a majority, she returns as a diminished Prime Minister. She didn't have to have this election. And she called the
election at the moment she thought advantaged her party because Jeremy Corbyn was seen as a weak leader.
Three quarters of his own MPs had tried to get rid of him. They didn't think he was fit to lead their party, let alone lead the country. So if
she loses a part, even, of her majority in this election, that is a remarkable failure.
It's also quite a remarkable success for Jeremy Corbyn --
OAKLEY: -- who is seen as a figure of some ridicule when the campaign started but hasn't made any gaps and his fought a good campaign.
GORANI: So the question is, if indeed scenario two materializes, even though she wins, would she need to resign because she dragged the country
and her party to this unnecessary election?
OAKLEY: I think some of the senior figures in the Conservative Party would be exerting all kinds of pressure, yes, if that were to be the case. But
just remember that 11 days after this election finishes, the negotiations with Europe on Brexit begins.
OAKLEY: So what a mess the country's going to be in. Think about this, a result like that might do to the stock markets, to the level of the pound,
and so many other issues. And really --
GORANI: Well, we've seen the pound slide after some polls emerged showing the great gap was narrowing.
[15:45:01] OAKLEY: No, if we have hung parliament --
GORANI: Yes. I didn't put that in my list of scenarios.
GORANI: But if we have a hung parliament.
GORANI: Finish your thought.
OAKLEY: Yes. But, of course, even the poll, which has taken us nearest to the possibility of a hung parliament, still said that, on the security
issue, 41 percent, pro-Conservatives, 18 percent thinking Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party best to handle that issue. So if the security issue is going
to play a really big in this last couple of days --
GORANI: And we don't know --
OAKLEY: -- it's important to keep that in mind.
GORANI: And we don't know how much it will. OK. Scenario number three, least probable, I imagine you'll tell me, and that is that the
conservatives will lose their majority. Now that is the nightmare scenario for Theresa May of all nightmare scenarios. And that is that the
OAKLEY: Yes. I mean it is the ultimate nightmare. But, of course, only last month, we had local government elections in Britain, and there was a
significant margin. The conservatives were some 10, 11 points ahead of the Labour Party in those actual results in the polling day.
I think it's all going to come down to the youth vote because what Jeremy Corbyn has done in this election for the Labour Party is to make a strong
pitch for the youth vote and in tuition fees at universities, going for a lot of the issues young people like.
If young people come out and vote, we could see a big surprise. I'm not saying a Conservative defeat because I think the arithmetic just --
OAKLEY: -- it's too far a gap for Labour to --
GORANI: Well, they didn't vote in big numbers for Brexit.
GORANI: Or for -- you know, in the Brexit referendum and we saw what happened.
OAKLEY: Young people, they've been talking a big game, but will they actually come out of bed and vote and help to produce such surprise?
GORANI: We thought some pretty dismal turnout numbers for the young people. We'll see if that changes. Thanks as always, Robin Oakley.
We'll take a quick break. We'll be right back. Stay with us.
GORANI: Well, Saudi Arabia had the world's attention as it welcomed the American President. When Donald Trump spoke there, he called on countries
to support the aspirations and dreams of all citizens who seek a better life, including women, children, and followers of all faith. Those are the
words of Donald Trump. But is that even possible when scene like this are still banned?
This is video from 2014 of women's rights activist Loujain al-Hathloul. She was jailed as she campaigned for the right to drive. She was released
after 73 days in jail.
Now, why is Loujain al-Hathloul back in the headlines? The reason is that, Amnesty International says, she has been re-arrested in Saudi Arabia. Hala
Al-Dosari is a Saudi writer and activist and she joins me now from Washington.
Why is Saudi Arabia re-arresting this activist after having already detained her for more than two months a few years ago?
HALA AL-DOSARI, SAUDI WRITER AND ACTIVIST: Well, we're not really sure on the reason of her arrest, but we knew that she had been summoned for
investigation for a reason a few months back, when she was out of the country.
[15:50:02] And this is the first time that she had come back to the country after 11 months of absence, so we do believe that it is related to
something over public advocacy.
GORANI: OK. But by arresting her, they presumably know we are going to talk about it. Presumably they also know that human rights groups are
going to publicize this case. Why do it? Why are they so concerned or afraid of a woman who's campaigning for the right to drive a car? Why does
that worry authorities there so much?
AL-DOSARI: Well, it's a puzzle for us, as well. We're not really sure why are they -- keep on going after people who are calling to drive. And these
are all peaceful activists.
You know, just a while ago, Mohammed al-Otaibi, who was another activist involved in an association for promotion of civil and political rights, who
was a father, was actually deported after seeking asylum and granted asylum in Norway. He was handed by Qatar to Saudi Arabia just a few weeks ago.
So we know that there is a zero tolerance for activists or for anyone who is critical of the public policies in general. And there is more now,
increased, if I would say, to what the government is going, you know, to do about the situation.
GORANI: So this idea somehow that there's the young guard in Saudi Arabia and that, in terms of the religious establishment, perhaps this desire for
reform might be progressing, this idea doesn't seem really to be gaining traction in Saudi right now.
AL-DOSARI: Well, I would say that that's what they promote, that the official narrative of the state that they are trying to reform, they are
trying to modernize. But there is also the one view to things that any criticism of what's happening is not going to be tolerated and people will
be arrested for their public opinion, especially those people with high followers like Loujain and others.
GORANI: And Loujain al-Hathloul is, we understand, detained, according to Amnesty. We have not heard from authorities. We reached out, by the way,
to the Saudi Embassy for comment. We have not received anything back.
So we haven't heard from her. How does it usually work in Saudi Arabia when an activist is detained? Is that person given a lawyer? Are they
able to gather evidence for their own defense? How does it work?
AL-DOSARI: Well, usually, activists are being, you know, charged with very broad terms like inciting public opinions or, you know, trying to invoke
sedition, things which are very difficult to prove in a court of law. And this is all because of the anti-terror law that really treats activists as,
you know, militant or aggressive people. So I'm not really sure how to, basically, approach defense in those cases.
And most of the people who got arrested and they've been, you know, tried under the specialized criminal court, have received the harsh sentences
between five to 15 years term, followed by travel bans.
But what happens for activists is that there is a small of group of support networks, individuals within Saudi Arabia, who tries to reach out to the
Unfortunately, most of the family members are being told by the authorities not to disclose any information about the case to the media or to anyone or
to international organizations -- Amnesty or Human Rights Watch -- if they want the case to end soon.
AL-DOSARI: And it is usually just a cover up because none of those cases end up soon. And even when activists are being released, they're placed
under travel ban, which is usually very prolonged, to monitor their compliance.
GORANI: Hala, yes, I hope we get to speak about this again soon, especially as we continue to monitor the case of Loujain al-Hathloul.
Thanks very much for joining us from Washington with your take.
Quick break. We'll be right back.
[15:55:39] GORANI: Donald Trump is known for some trademark catchphrases but now, a new presidential motto has surfaced. Here's Jeanne Moos.
JEANNE MOOS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Who says President Trump isn't a man of deep beliefs?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Believe me.
MOOS (voice-over): He was deep in "believe me's" --
TRUMP: Believe me, we've just began.
MOOS (voice-over): -- dropping five of them --
TRUMP: Believe me.
MOOS (voice-over): -- as he announced the U.S. would drop out --
TRUMP: Believe me.
MOOS (voice-over): -- of the Paris Climate Accord.
TRUMP: Believe me, this is not what we need.
MOOS (voice-over): But what's five in one speech?
TRUMP: Because, believe me, there's no collusion.
MOOS (voice-over): When he's been a believer at the rate of two in under 10 seconds.
TRUMP: My total priority, believe me, is the United States of Americas.
MOOS (on camera): What is Trump's usage like compared to other people?
TYLER SCHNOEBELEN, LINGUIST: Yes. Trump's usage is off the charts.
MOOS (voice-over): Linguist Tyler Schnoebelen actually has made charts of Trump's usage.
TRUMP: Believe me. Believe me. Believe me. Believe me. Believe me. Believe me, I know.
MOOS (voice-over): The linguist tallied Trump at 580 occurrences per million words versus a measly six for Hillary Clinton.
MOOS (on camera): You know, it seems to me, it's a time killer or a time filler to collect your thoughts.
SCHNOEBELEN: You're emphasizing something but it also lets you play for time.
MOOS (voice-over): Jon Stewart has another theory.
JON STEWART, AMERICAN COMEDIAN AND FORMER TELEVISION HOST: Nobody says "believe me" unless they are lying.
MOOS (voice-over): The addiction to saying --
TRUMP: Believe me.
MOOS (voice-over): -- is ironic for someone who is often described --
TRUMP: Thousands and thousands of people were cheering.
MOOS (voice-over): -- as having his pants on fire.
AARON SHAROCKMAN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, POLITIFACT: The 2015 Politifact Lie of the Year goes to the collective misstatements of Donald Trump.
SCHNOEBELEN: I have lots of friends tell me that their parents explicitly told them, don't believe anyone who says, "Believe me." But that doesn't
seem to be the case that this is just an easy marker of lying.
TRUMP: Nobody builds walls better than me, believe me.
MOOS (on camera): And you, personally, you don't say, oh, here comes a lie, when he says, "Believe me"?
SCHNOEBELEN: No, I don't.
TRUMP: We're going to knock the hell out of ISIS, believe me.
SCHNOEBELEN: He's really at his most Trumpian when he uses it.
MOOS (voice-over): You better believe it. Jeanne Moos, CNN.
TRUMP: Believe -- believe -- believe -- believe -- believe-- believe -- believe -- believe. Can you believe it?
MOOS (voice-over): New York.
GORANI: I'm Hala Gorani. "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is next.