Return to Transcripts main page
Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield
Outrage Growing; Disturbing New Details; Verdict Watch
Aired June 15, 2017 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And it`s not over yet.
ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HOST (voice-over): Twelve people, four days, one room, no decision.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`re deadlocked on all three counts.
BANFIELD: Bill Cosby`s jurors can`t agree.
ANDREW WYATT, BILL COSBY`S PUBLICIST: This deadlock shows the not guilty that Mr. Cosby has been saying the entire time.
BANFIELD: But the question still lingers. Did "America`s dad" assault this woman?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is not a vindication of anybody.
BANFIELD: The judge tells the jury try harder.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This deadlock could change.
BANFIELD: They didn`t have to die.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of them even told her that they could hear the kids crying out in the car and told her bring them in. And she said, No,
they`re fine. They`ll will cry themselves to sleep.
BANFIELD: A woman parties with friends while her kids slowly die in the car. Now the groundswell against her is picking up steam.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s just not fair.
BANFIELD: Not since Casey Anthony has a mom drawn wrath like this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But we`re going to continue to look at all angles.
BANFIELD: A mother, two daughters, and a couple across town.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They have their own crime scene and we have ours.
BANFIELD: For the first time, see the man accused of killing them all.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you understand the nature of the charges against you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
BANFIELD: How their bodies were staged.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s on the bed, he`s on the floor, and neither one of them`s responding.
BANFIELD: What clues do the crime scenes tell us about a spree killer at work?
A bus driver busy sexting as a student slowly dies.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sir, were you texting Miss Louanna (ph) on the morning that Paul Lee (ph) was left on your bus and died?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I did.
BANFIELD: Their special needs son forgotten on a scorching hot bus.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They killed my son. Technically, they killed my son.
BANFIELD: That driver under oath and on tape.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you remember making sexual innuendoes in the texts to Ms. Guererra (ph)?
BANFIELD: How many millions could ever right this wrong?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My boy is a very, very precious boy.
BANFIELD: Night driving turns into night terror, hard to see it coming. And that wrong-way driver somehow took off and is still out there
somewhere.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Hello, everyone. I`m Ashleigh Banfield. This is PRIMETIME JUSTICE.
And we are following breaking news tonight. At any moment, we could get a verdict in the aggravated indecent assault trial of "America`s dad," Bill
Cosby. And today jurors delivered what can only be considered a bombshell. After more than 30 hours, they told the judge they were deadlocked on all
of the charges, couldn`t reach a unanimous decision on anything.
Cosby is accused of drugging and sexually assaulting Andrea Constand in his suburban Philadelphia home back in `04. But the judge did not think that
31 hours of deliberations was enough, so he sent them back to work harder. Outside the courthouse, That decision really stoked the fires of Cosby
supporters and detractors.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A blind man going to go to prison for 30 years!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is no...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Come on, now!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) answer your question.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We cannot...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God! If he did it, why y`all didn`t come earlier?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: News of the deadlock did not surprise Cosby`s team. His publicist said it was a no-brainer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDREW WYATT, BILL COSBY`S PUBLICIST: This deadlock shows the not guilty that Mr. Cosby has been saying the entire time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: But Andrea Constand is just one of dozens of women who have accused Cosby of drugging and sexually assaulting them going back to the
1960s. One of those women says the length of deliberations and the fact that they are deadlocked is confusing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VICTORIA VALENTINO, COSBY ACCUSER: There is obviously something that is keeping them from seeing it and having that feeling of conclusion and
resolution.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: One thing very peculiar in this case. Many of the accusers` stories are virtually identical, many saying they were drugged to impair
their abilities before being sexually assaulted while nearly unconscious.
It got us thinking about an interview that our Larry King here at CNN did with Bill Cosby back in 1991, where he talked openly about the old days
when guys used "Spanish fly," thought then to be an aphrodisiac on women.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:05:14]BILL COSBY, COMEDIAN: There`s a thing about Spanish fly. You know anything about Spanish fly? Spanish fly was the thing that all boys
from age 11 on up to death we will still be searching for Spanish fly. The old story was if you took a little drop -- it was on the head of a...
LARRY KING, "LARRY KING LIVE": Pin.
COSBY: Pin!
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: And you put it in a drink.
KING: ... Coca-Cola, doesn`t matter.
COSBY: It doesn`t make a -- and the girl would drink it, and hello America!
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Not funny. CNN correspondent Jean Casarez has been in the courtroom for the entire trial. She is live right now from the courthouse
in Norristown, Pennsylvania.
Jean, it`s 8:00 o`clock Eastern, and this has been a long day. It`s been a confusing day for many. Do we have any idea what the jurors are doing at
this moment and whether we think they`re going to reach any kind of decision today?
JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They`re deliberating. You know, once the judge -- once they came in and we all found out that they could not be
unanimous, they believed, on any count -- and there are three charges here -- the judge gave them the charge and told them they had a duty to try to
reach that unanimous verdict.
They stood up. I watched them. They didn`t look too happy. They went back, and they`ve been deliberating since then. So I just calculated, 38-
and-a-half hours in total they have been deliberating since closing arguments on Monday.
BANFIELD: Jean, all those people behind you -- it`s hard to get a read sometimes how many are media, how many are supporters, how many are
detractors. What`s the scene outside the courtroom right now?
CASAREZ: There are so many people from the media here. And this is media, along with a few -- there are people from the public here, too, I think.
But they are just all outside. I mean, Ashleigh, you know we`ve covered very, very high-profile trials in our time, and this ranks among the
biggest as far as international networks that are here, national networks that are here, local from all over Pennsylvania are here. This is a very,
very big trial.
BANFIELD: You and I go back a long way in covering things like this, and you and I have also seen this play out before, where a jury comes back and
says, We just don`t know what to do. And we have also seen the judges do what is expected. Sometimes, it`s called dynamite (ph). Sometimes, it`s
called Allen. Today, where you are in Pennsylvania, it`s called Spencer. It is a charge to go back and work harder.
I wanted to get your sense of the look on the face of those jurors after 31 hours hearing from the judge, Not good enough, go back.
CASAREZ: Well, first, let me tell you I`ve seen many expressions because I`ve watched them every time they come in. They`ve had six questions. And
during the trial, they were a happy group. You could tell they were serious, focused but, you know, smiles on their face because the judge
would have a light-hearted moment.
When they started deliberating, all it changed. I saw this focus, this seriousness. Tuesday night, they were upset. Even the judge said, You
probably won`t talk to each other as you all drive back to the hotel. I could tell they were angry.
Last night, they were just tired. They were just exhausted. You could see it. Today, when they walked in -- and we already knew they couldn`t reach
a verdict -- one guy was like this as he walked in. I saw another juror with a small little smile on her face. And others were just focused, but
they looked defeated.
That was -- and I`ve looked at a lot of jurors in my time, and they probably were because they wanted to reach a verdict. You can tell how
with how long they deliberated.
BANFIELD: Sure. Yes.
CASAREZ: But they`re not finished yet. That`s what we have to remember. They`re still trying.
BANFIELD: Tea leaves are next to impossible to read, but those facial expressions are all we have. And I know that most of you were laser-
focused on those faces of those 12 at that moment. Did you get a chance to look sideways over at Andrea? Did you see her expression when she heard
they were deadlocked?
CASAREZ: Yes. She`s been in the courtroom every time there has been a jury question. She is focused, no emotion, serious, just a presence in
that courtroom. She is there sitting with members of the commonwealth, the detectives that she has worked with for a while now. But you don`t see any
type of emotion one way or the other.
BANFIELD: What about Cosby? Any emotion from him at that moment?
CASAREZ: He`s been light-hearted during this trial. I mean, he`s been serious, of course. He has been listening and looking at the testimony.
But he has had his light-hearted moments with smiles and even a little bit of laughter.
[20:10:02]But today, before we all knew what was happening, I watched. He was in the courtroom. The attorneys come out from the judge`s chamber.
Brian McGonagle (ph), lead attorney, goes over and sits down really close to him. I`d never seen that. And he begins whispering in his ear because
they knew what had happened. And he ended. Mr. McGonagle patted him on the back.
BANFIELD: Yes. Keep your eyes peeled because, obviously, it`s Thursday, which means tomorrow is Friday, and this is a sequestered jury, which means
they don`t get to go home. They`re stuck in a hotel. They could have a very late night tonight, so to avoid spending the weekend doing exactly
what they`ve been doing for the last 40 hours. We could get at any moment -- like I said, we could get at any moment a verdict. And we`re going to
keep you in place, Jean, if you will.
I also want to bring in Victoria Valentino. She is a former "Playboy" playmate who accused Bill Cosby of sexual assault. She joins me live
outside that courthouse in Norristown, as well.
Victoria, thank you for being here tonight to talk to us about this. I just want to get your reaction earlier today when you heard that the jury
said they were deadlocked and now after a full day that they`ve gone back at it and there`s been not a peep.
VALENTINO: Well, I think we`re all very frustrated and very confused about what`s really going on in the jurors` minds. I see the body language of
the jury when they do come in, when there`s a question that needs to be resolved by the judge or the court reporter. And again, you see most of
the jurors coming in feeling -- with these expressions on their faces of they`re irritated and tired and grumpy and irritable.
And there`s one person I particularly have noticed who comes in very jocularly and jovially and adjusts the glasses and smiles. So my instinct
is that this is the person who`s holding things up.
BANFIELD: Although we can all be shocked by it, I have to admit, I have been completely wrong about jurors and their look and then actually what
they tell us, if they tell us later, after a verdict.
Victoria, can you just as briefly as possible explain to me what you allege happened to you, you know, with Bill Cosby?
VALENTINO: Yes. It was the end of 1969. I had just turned 27. And my 6- year-old biracial son had drowned in a swimming pool at the beginning of a party given to celebrate a recording contract that I had with Capital
Records.
And over time, I had been going out on an interview for an acting part with Cosby for "I Spy," and later on met him in a restaurant with my roommate.
And he apparently had the hots for her and used my grief over my child`s death to appear compassionate, empathic, and suggested that we go to a spa
and get a massage and he`d take us out to dinner.
And he did all of that, and then put pills down next to our glasses of wine because I was not being a team player, apparently. I wasn`t feeling very
jubilant, and I wasn`t responding to all of his corny jokes and what have you...
BANFIELD: And what happened when...
(CROSSTALK)
BANFIELD: Tell me what happened after...
VALENTINO: This will make us all feel better...
BANFIELD: ... the dinner, when he took you back to what you describe as an office-like room with a fake phone in. What happened in that room?
VALENTINO: Well, he had promised to take us home to my grandmother`s house, and instead he took us up, winding around in the Hollywood Hills and
said he wanted to show us his awards for "I Spy." And we were pretty drugged at that point, and so by the time we walked into this so-called
office, my roommate went straight over to the love seat, sat down and keeled over and became unconscious. And I sat down on the other love seat,
and suddenly, everything became silent and I wondered what had happened, whether they had abandoned me, maybe I`d passed out and didn`t realize
they`d left.
And I looked over, and he was sitting adjacent to her on the love seat and he was looking down at her in a very predatory way. And I could see him
conjuring up this fantasy, this image. And then there was growing bulge in his pants and I knew exactly what he was going to do. And I leaned over
and I tried to call his name, call out to him and distract him, but the words were coming out in a garbled way. What was in my brain was not
coming out in my mouth in words.
[20:15:00]BANFIELD: Victoria -- Victoria, I need to interrupt you for a moment. I`m sorry, I need to interrupt you for a only moment because
Andrew Wyatt, Bill Cosby`s publicist, has just taken the microphone.
ANDREW WYATT, COSBY`S PUBLICIST: If they don`t have a verdict by now, he would release them and just say, This thing is a deadlock. You know, it`s
a dull 48 hours pushing and pushing and pushing. We haven`t heard anything since this morning. I think we got called in about the deadlock at 11:00
AM. We all, including you guys, have been patiently waiting, trying to figure out what`s going on.
So hopefully, the judge will not let this go until tomorrow. You know, tomorrow is Friday, and the record has been broken from Montgomery County
with this jury deliberation, and you know, they will hold that record for a very long time, we hope. And -- but we definitely want this thing to end,
and hopefully, the judge will make a decision and give us an update sometime tonight and possibly tell the jurors that they have done their
civic duty and they did it with the utmost importance and they did it with ethics and integrity. So thank you.
QUESTION: (INAUDIBLE) are you concerned that (INAUDIBLE) go in on Friday and see if you can come up with (INAUDIBLE)
WYATT: Look, this is all impressive (INAUDIBLE) for all of us. And we`ve never seen anything like this. So you know, it would be hard for me to
speculate how it will affect, you know, Mr. Cosby or how it will affect the commonwealth. We just think that the emotional toll that`s going on with
the jurors and the physical toll that`s on them to be in the room deliberating, debating -- and you know, that they didn`t come up with
nothing and they were deadlocked over three days, I don`t know what an extra day (INAUDIBLE)
QUESTION: (INAUDIBLE)
WYATT: Look, we`re prepared to go the distance. You know, this is about, you know, him proclaiming his innocence. And we believe that he`s
innocent. We believe that he`s not guilty. And I think the jurors have shown that, too. The jurors -- they have -- they have gone through the
trial. They have done the trial over in the jury -- in the deliberation room, and they were deadlocked. You can`t get any fairer than that. So we
just hope that they (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
QUESTION: ... step in and stop this without the jury saying they`re deadlocked.
WYATT: I think the judge can at least go and approach them and have a conversation and say, Hey, look, you guys, are you still in the same
position from 11:00 AM this morning? (INAUDIBLE) the same position, you know, let`s end this. And he has the ability to do so.
QUESTION: Is Mr. Crosby relieved? What is his reaction to the deadlock?
WYATT: Well, Mr. Cosby is just happy that, you know, we have a fair and impartial jurors that our jurors are his peers and that they are taking
their time to deliberate. They looked at all the facts of the case. They saw the inconsistencies of Ms. Constand -- her cross-examination and with
her investigation to the Durham police officers, as well as to the officers in Montgomery County and the fact that the commonwealth in `05 said that
they would not bring charges. I think we should put an ending to this.
BANFIELD: Andrew Wyatt outside of the courthouse in Norristown, Pennsylvania. Obviously, a long day for everyone who`s been there.
Victorian, if I can come back to you -- I don`t have a whole lot of time. I want to get back to the story. I had to interrupt you, and I beg your
pardon.
VALENTINO: Right.
BANFIELD: But with the remaining 20 seconds we have left...
VALENTINO: No, that`s fine.
BANFIELD: ... if you could just finish explaining to what happened to you...
VALENTINO: Yes.
BANFIELD: ... as you allege at the hands of Bill Cosby.
VALENTINO: He got up and he came over to me, and ultimately orally and vaginally raped me and then abandoned me and my roommate in this place
where we didn`t know -- we didn`t know the address. He told us to call a cab.
BANFIELD: Victoria...
VALENTINO: And the phone on the desk had no dial tone.
BANFIELD: So I know that you have said back then -- and again, this was in the `60s. I know you said that as a Playmate...
VALENTINO: Right.
BANFIELD: ... you thought no one would believe you if you spoke out about this. Here we are 40-plus years later. You`re standing outside a
courthouse where Bill Cosby is on trial for this kind of behavior that`s alleged against him. Are we any different now believing Andrea Constand
than you believe anyone would have thought you were telling the truth back then?
VALENTINO: Well, obviously, not then. We would be revictimized as victims. And I think it`s continuing on to this day. We have an uphill
fight, but we`re going to continue the fight and we`re going to raise consciousness about a woman`s value in today`s society and rape culture.
And that`s our mission.
[20:20:04]BANFIELD: Victoria Valentino, thank you so much for taking the time. I apologize that we had to interrupt for that breaking news, that --
that quick speech that was given outside the courthouse by Bill Cosby`s publicist. We`re trying to cover all angles of this.
And to our viewers, as well, we`re going to continue watching this verdict throughout the night, as well. If the jurors come back, we`ll be
delivering it to you live during this program and after this program, as well. So I encourage you to stay with HLN as we watch the Cosby verdict
watch. It is the deliberation that has gone on four days. Will there be a fifth, or will they end deadlocked?
The national outrage is growing after a young mother leaves her two babies in a hot car and they die, all while she`s partying for 15 hours with her
friends inside. Now there are petitions demanding she be imprisoned for life.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:25:14]BANFIELD: Still watching the Cosby jury. They have been long at deliberations yet again today after the judge told them, It`s not good
enough to come out and say you`re deadlocked, go back in, keep trying. And one day later, here we are 8:25 Eastern time, they are still at it tonight.
A verdict could come any time, so we`re watching this breaking story and we will bring it to you once they tell us if they`ve made any headway,
We`ve also got this breaking news to bring you tonight. Two escaped inmates who`ve been on the run for days in Georgia are not on the run
anymore. They`ve been captured. Georgia Bureau of Investigations says the inmates are now officially in custody. These are the two who were accused
of killing those two guards who were driving their prison bus after they busted out the back.
Donnie Russell Rowe and Ricky Dubose led the authorities on a multi-state manhunt. The two got out of what should have been a locked and gated rear
section of that bus. But they`ve been captured about 300 miles away in Tennessee, just south of Nashville.
Not since Casey Anthony came crashing into the headlines nine years ago has a story cocked our heads and made us look twice at a mom and her behavior
around her kids. Meet Amanda Hawkins, a 19-year-old mother of 1-year-old Brynn and 2-year-old Madison (ph), that is until last week, when those two
babies died. Amanda had a hankering to visit her friends for an all- nighter, and for some unknown reason, she dragged those kids along. But instead of bringing them inside, police say she just left them in the car
in Texas, where the temperatures soared into the 90s.
And it was not a quick visit, either. Police say those babies were left in that car for 15 hours, even overnight, and the temperatures dipped down
into the low 60s. Police say even her friends told here the kids were out there crying, to which they say she responded, They`ll just cry themselves
to sleep. No food, no water, no potty, 15 hours in that car.
Police also say once she finally emerged to collect those children and realized they were unconscious, she did not call 911. They say, instead,
she tried to reverse the damage.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHERIFF WILLIAM HIERHOLZER, KERR COUNTY, TEXAS: They took the kids in the house, tried to bathe them. Kids were, from what I understand, pretty well
unconscious then.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: And police say Amanda wasn`t done trying to cover up what happened to those girls yet. They say once she finally brought them to the
hospital, she lied about what happened to them, saying they passed out smelling flowers at a park.
All of this is an eerie reminder about Florida mother Casey Anthony, who also chose not to call 911 when her child was in crisis. Casey was found
not guilty of murdering her little girl, Caylee, but the jury agreed she was a colossal liar -- all that garbage about a phantom baby-sitter
stealing the little girl, when all along, Caylee had been dead for months.
Remember her exquisite lies to her own parents when everyone believed Caylee was just missing with that nanny? Again, Casey knew the little girl
was dead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: What message do you want me to give to nanny (INAUDIBLE) and to Caylee?
(CROSSTALK)
CASEY ANTHONY, CHARGED WITH MURDER: That she needs to return Caylee.
(CROSSTALK)
CINDY ANTHONY: What do you think her reasons are?
CASEY ANTHONY: Mom, I don`t know!
CINDY ANTHONY: OK.
CASEY ANTHONY: I forgive her. My only concern is that Caylee comes back to us and she`s smiling and she`s happy and that she`s -- that she`s OK.
CINDY ANTHONY: OK. What do you want me to tell Caylee?
CASEY ANTHONY: That Mommy loves her very much and she`s the most important thing in this entire world to me! And to be brave!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Casey was a mom who faced the wrath of millions at trial. And now Amanda Hawkins is a mom who is already facing the wrath of thousands
for her alleged actions. Even her childhood friend has started a petition to get her locked up for life, and that petition already has more than
2,000 signatures on it.
Christine Pelisek is a senior writer at "People" magazine. She joins me live from Los Angeles. So Christine, the charges as they stand right now,
two counts of abandoning or endangering a child, but those children are dead. Do we expect that those charges could end up as murder charges?
CHRISTINE PELISEK, "PEOPLE" (via telephone): Yes, absolutely. I mean, they charged her when the kids were still alive. There is a good chance that it
will be upgraded because the girls died a couple days later.
And the sheriff basically said that he believed that the temperature in the car played a role in the death and although the medical examiner`s office
has not released the exact cause yet, but I wouldn`t be surprised if homicide charges follow very soon.
BANFIELD: So, where is she? Where is this Amanda Hawkins now?
PELISEK: Well, she is in jail, you know. I mean, there is no hearing. They haven`t set up a hearing yet. She is still in jail, you know, waiting for
hearing. They haven`t decided yet when that`s gonna happen. She hasn`t pled or anything along those lines. So, I imagine probably in the next week or
so we should know what is going to happen.
BANFIELD: Christine, what are we hearing about this petition other than it was her friend starting it, asking that those, that she be in prison for
life for what happened. What do we know about the petition? Who is actually spear hitting it? Who is signing? And what might actually come of it?
PELISEK: Well, I mean, right now, the goal -- it was actually a friend of Amanda`s that started this petition and the goal actually at first was for
3,000 petition, you know, to make sure basically that online petition with title, make sure Amanda Hawkins go to prison. And the goal was to, you
know, basically get 3,000 signatures online and so far it has more than 2,000.
BANFIELD: I want to really quickly bring in if I can, Danny Cevallos and also Shawn Holley who is in Los Angeles. Shawn was part of O.J.`s Dream
Team as well as Lindsay Lohan`s defense attorney. She knows a thing or two about the law.
All right, to the two of you, there is this petition. Thousands of people are angry. Does that mean anything, Danny, let me begin with you, does it
mean anything to those who are looking at potentially raising those charges?
DANNY CEVALLOS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Our legal system was never designed to adjudicate by petition online or change.org
movement. That`s not how the judicial system works. It`s actually much less democratic than that. What happens is a prosecutor, an individual reviews
the evidence, and they decide.
So, in a way, you could be right, perhaps they are aware of these online presence and in our modern era, maybe prosecutors are influenced and they
do make charging decisions based on public outcry. We`ve seen it in some modern cases. So, it`s not beyond the scope of possibility.
BANFIELD: So, Shawn, about the charging decisions, Casey Anthony was charged with first-degree murder and was facing the death penalty. And that
jury said no, too much. I spoke to them. They thought something happened. They thought she did something.
They did not think it was first-degree murder and that the death penalty was appropriate. Do you think this is something that prosecutors are going
to have to really chew on before they decide if they are going to charge any further or how far they are prepared to go?
SHAWN HOLLEY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, other than the fact that we have victims who are babies in both cases, there really is not much similarity
between those two situations and cases.
BANFIELD: The lying? The lying and the cover-up?
HOLLEY: In Casey Anthony`s case, they never were able to prove how she died and that was, I think, a big part of the verdict in that case. Here, we
obviously have a much greater sense of how these kids died and that separates it in significant ways from the Casey Anthony case. What I think
we`re going to need to look at is precisely what this young woman was doing in that house.
We heard that she was partying, I understand that, and this is a horrible situation of course. But was she passed out? This is more of a negligent
situation than an intentional homicide. I don`t think that the prosecutor is going to try to demonstrate that she intended for her children to die
and it`s going to be important to find out what she was doing in that apartment.
BANFIELD: Or I will add the word reckless. I`m just going to throw that in there, but I`ll leave it there. We have to move on to another story. We are
going to watch this to see what the prosecutors decide to do if and when they do something. It is an outrageous image. George Brinkman who is facing
five counts of murder appearing to sob as he makes this court appearance in an Ohio courtroom. But are those crocodile tears and what happened to his
hand?
(START VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 17 CRA 2575, 17 CRA 2574.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: We have some breaking news to bring you from the courthouse in Pennsylvania where the jury that`s been deliberating over Bill Cosby`s
charges, apparently there is movement. We just learned that everyone has been called back to the courtroom in the next ten minutes.
That could very well be that they they could have a verdict. It could very well be that they are indeed deadlocked fill after that charge to go back
and continue to deliberate. Let`s listen in, one of the accusers is at the mike.
(START VIDEO CLIP)
LILI BERNARD, VISUAL ARTIST: I`ve been telling bill for years to stop drugging women. I had to look to the text two or three times and read over
again. Quincy (inaudible) top. I have been telling Bill for years to stop drugging women.
Where I understand the cognitive dissonance that impedes bystanders like Quincy Jones of Bill Cosby`s criminality from speaking out, from using
their -- from speaking out to the criminality that they witness. I understand the cognitive dissonance. I understand the intimidation they
might feel at his power.
[20:40:00] However their silence does nothing but enable serial rapists such as Bill Cosby. Their silence is malignant. It does nothing to elevate
our standing as black people. I beg, I beg other people who are privy to Bill Cosby`s criminality, who have witnessed his criminality to please
speak forth in defense of us. Is it heartbreaking to have so many black men whom I do not know attack me online to tell that I`m a money hungry slut,
whore, to call me a liar.
It is heartbreaking that this is the reality. I have no hard feelings for them. It was difficult (inaudible) arm in arm with the man who raped me for
19 months that I was on the Cosby Studios. Learning and watching in preparation for my guest star role. I spent time with Keshia. She is a
good, strong, and righteous woman. I don`t fault her.
I understand the cognitive dissonance that she feels, how difficult it must be for her to accept that the man who loved her reeked havoc upon the
landscapes of the bodies of so many women. However, I`m sure that Hitler had children who loved him, too. And that racism cannot be a shield for
rape. Racism does not negate sexism.
I implore all of you to consider the fact that Bill Cosby`s moral high ground that he carefully crafted, his phony and fake philanthropy, his
getting of millions of dollars to black historical colleges, his comedy, his Dr. Huxtable are nothing but a smoke screen. They are diversion to
distract the public and the world from knowing his true nature which is that of a deprave, liar, coward, serial, drugging rapist.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: You are just listening to Lili Bernard. She has taken the mike. And followed by her, the guest that we just spoke to as well, Victoria
Valentino, who spoke with us. Both of them accusers in the Bill Cosby saga that has gone now over four plus decades.
The anger and the angst that many of the accusers have voiced over the last several years since the Cosby allegations began to gather steam and
publicity is (inaudible) tonight when we are now perhaps only about 4-6 minutes away from reconvening in this courtroom where the jurors after 40
some odd hours have now potentially either reached a verdict, are going to ask to retire for the evening or might just announce to the judge for a
second time today that they just cannot agree on the three charges that Bill Cosby is facing.
I want to bring in Danny Cevallos real quickly if I can and Shawn Holley as well if I can. Danny, the intriguing thing about this, I think for so many
people, is that for two plus years we have been hearing the stories of some 50 odd women, all of them with remarkably similar tales. Many of them with
nothing to gain.
No lawsuit, no dog in the fight, no potential career in Hollywood, some of them in their late 70s, now just recounting it happened to me too, I am
here for support. Those jurors could not have lived under a rock. How do they separate those realities they have been hearing from just the evidence
they have been given in this case?
CEVALLOS: Ideally you hope and you pray that the judge can sit through this during jury selection and that jurors are honest and you don`t have any
stealth jurors that want to get onto the jury to achieve some objective or some mission that they have. That`s -- you know, you can always be a juror
that makes up a story or denies having a bias but ideally people are honest and the judge can sit through the people who are trying to get on the jury
for a reason.
BANFIELD: Shawn Holley, I don`t want to jump ahead too many steps but if this jury expected to potentially come back in the next few minutes and let
us know where they are in their deliberative process, and I said it before, it could be a verdict, it could be a request to break for the night, it
could be a second announcement of being deadlocked. If it is another announcement or being deadlocked and if in fact this is a mistrial, you
have a group of prosecutors with a big decision to make. Might they weigh the possibility that
[20:45:00] perhaps the next judge that they present this case to might agree to have more of these accusers come into court and tell their
pattern-like stories? Is that a possibility?
HOLLEY: It`s absolutely a possibility. When there are retrials, usually the prosecution learns from the mistakes that they made in the first trial and
they beef it up and do it one better. There are many instances where there is a conviction the second go round but, you know, listening to the people
outside the courthouse, this is exactly why this jury has been sequestered, so that they are not influenced by this sort of emotional outcry.
BANFIELD: Yeah, I mean, listen, they weren`t sequestered for the last two to three years though when the stories were all over the media. They were
all over television. They were all over magazines and newspapers. And like I said, you had to be living under a rock if you didn`t hear some ugly
Cosby accusation or many ugly Cosby acquisitions.
I`m going to ask the both of you to stay put, if you will. I`m just counting down the minutes. I`m going to squeeze in a quick break. But I
think we are just about two and a half minutes or so away from that as reconvening in the courtroom. What will it be? What are the jurors going to
tell us? Is it over? Back after this.
[20:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: Continuing with our breaking news, I want to take you live to the situation in Pennsylvania outside the courthouse where Bill Cosby`s fate
could literally be seconds away. We`ve sort of hit the 10-minute mark and it was 10 minutes ago that we were told all parties were summoned back to
the courtroom. We`ve been waiting all day to find out whether that Spencer Charge or better known as a Dynamite Charge from a judge actually would
yield anything.
That`s when a judge says to a jury that tells him that they are deadlocked. Go back, work harder, get back at it. That was a full day ago and that jury
has been back at it. And the first peep from them has been come back to the courtroom. Well, at least the first peep from the court has been come back
to the courtroom. So as the parties filed back into the courtroom, we have yet to know whether there is a development that will end this process, end
this trial, and potentially end in a mistrial if that deadlock situation remains and is announced.
We have yet to know if perhaps the jurors are done and exhausted and need to sleep on it. We have yet to know if they have actually reached a
verdict. That`s what the judge was hoping when he said get back to work. I want to bring back to Shaw Holley and also Danny Cevallos who are with me.
Danny, you`re a Pennsylvania lawyer. I`m not going to suggest that you know how many of these Spencer Charge juries in Pennsylvania actually come back
and yield something worthwhile or just generally in practice. It does actually yield results on occasion, doesn`t it?
CEVALLOS: It does. For the most part, defense attorneys are not big fans of Allen Charges or Spencer Charges because the idea is that it can be unduly
coercive. Now, realize that the judge has to walk a fine line here on one end and unduly coercive instruction can result in an appealable error so we
could -- Cosby could beat this case on appeal if he is convicted.
On the other hand, if a judge declares a mistrial too early, then double jeopardy can attach because the idea is Cosby was denied his right of a
trial to go to the jury. So the judge has to be careful not to declare a mistrial too early without making the jurors work hard or he also has to be
careful not to work too then hard, in the fatigue and exhaustion.
BANFIELD: Yeah, it makes sense. Shawn, real quickly, you know, you think back to the questions that the jurors asked the judge while they were
deliberating that 31 somewhat hours, one of the questions has stood out, it was question number three. And the jury wanted the judge to define what it
meant in count three when it was quoted without her knowledge.
I put that in air quotes but that`s the quote, without her knowledge. The jury wanted a definition for that, and that reminded me of all the times we
have heard jurors ask questions of the judge like, can you define reasonable doubt? And Shawn, it`s just common sense. Does a charging of the
jury with a dynamite effort, does it check their common sense back into the room?
Do they get a reset whereby they pick it back up because they left it outside and they bring that common sense back and think, what was I
thinking when I asked to define without her knowledge? It means without her knowledge. Does that help? Is that what happens?
HOLLEY: Well, you know, sometimes jurors can get lost in the weeds and it can be a reset. And though I have nothing against common sense, I`m all for
common sense. Jury instructions are very specific. They are the law. And the words that are used in jury instructions are very, very important.
So, I think it really signals that we have a very professional jury here who really is trying to understand what is being required of them by these
very particular words in the law. It`s the law.
BANFIELD: Yeah. It`s hard. You just can`t know who your jury really is until after the case if they decide to speak publicly and it is their right
most often to stay anonymous, go back home and resume their lives after their civic service. Let`s remember these people are doing a civic service,
every time you want to get out of jury duty, these people didn`t. They are doing this for us. They are doing this for society.
To that end, Danny, the professionalism of a jury sometimes, I`m feeling nowadays that people want the forensics, they want the molecular smoking
gun or they just can`t make that leap. It used to be the cases where it is just filled with witnesses. You didn`t have all the science. Now, we have a
case today where you don`t have a lot of forensics, almost next to none actually introduced in this case
[20:55:00] but you do have a lot of witnesses. You have actual witnesses who said the same kind of MO but sometimes that`s just still not enough,
Danny.
CEVALLOS: Yeah, there is definitely a thing where modern jurors have an expectation that it is going to be like T.V. There is going to be DNA
strands and fingerprints and gunshot residue. That`s not always the case.
And sometimes at least I`ve found that it`s just as effective for a believable witness to walk in, point his or her finger at that defense
table and say that`s the man, that`s the man that did this to me, which is why prosecutors wisely in their openings and closings do a lot of that
finger pointing at the defense table, too. They understand that the theatrics of the courtroom can work in their favor just as well as
fingerprints and gunshot residue.
BANFIELD: I have to bring it to a close here only because we want to make sure that we don`t miss what is happening in this courtroom. Bill Cosby
earlier in the week has come in daily with different people on his arm, only one day with his wife, but that man on the right, his publicist, has
been with him every day, many times having to lead him in as his eyesight is poor. Where he is at this very moment though, we`ll be curious to hear
about it once we start getting the details.
Once again, we should be learning at any moment what this jury has decided to do for the night. Whether it`s announced we`re done, whether it`s to
announce we`re tired, or whether it`s to announce we have a verdict. We are going to keep watching this everyone. Thanks for being with us. I`m
Ashleigh Banfield. We`ll see you right back here Monday night 8:00 for "Primetime Justice."
[21:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
