Return to Transcripts main page
Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield
Nation in Danger as Heroin Overdoses Surge
Aired June 29, 2017 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In Ohio, this picture going viral and highlighting the dangers of addiction.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s an epidemic. It`s everywhere. We`ve got people that are dying.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A couple sprawled out along the sidewalk.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They said that they are breathing, possible overdose.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wife and husband were high on heroin.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mommy died last night, OK?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do you mean, my mom?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From drugs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Maybe my son will think about this, see what it did to his family, see what it did to his mother.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Screaming, the 2-year-old girl is seen tugging at her mother`s limp body.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HOST: Hello, everyone. I`m Ashleigh Banfield. This is a PRIMETIME JUSTICE special report, "Heroin, America`s Nightmare."
If an earthquake killed thoughts of Americans, you would drop everything and help. If an enemy was responsible, you would go to war. And yet in
2015, heroin took 13,000 Americans from us, and nobody`s rolling out the tanks. In fact, the U.S. government says drug overdoses killed over 52,000
in 2015, and we are on pace to blow those numbers away.
Heroin is in every corner of our union, and over the next hour, we`re going to tell it like it is, raw and unvarnished from the families ripped apart
by their addict kids to the tiniest babies born shaking and sick, to the people on the front lines mopping up the mess, shooting up the Narcan,
saving the lives of addicts who will likely OD again.
We begin tonight with news that`s breaking in Pennsylvania, where a mother who was seven months pregnant is facing charges after a suspected heroin
overdose that forced the doctors to deliver her baby prematurely. Police say that Casey Dishman (ph) was found out cold on the floor of her
bathroom. They say her boyfriend lied, said Casey just had a seizure disorder, so they didn`t use Narcan to revive her. She was rushed to the
hospital where after an emergency C-section, reports say her baby was born brain dead and is now on life support.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LT. ERIC HERMICK, PENNSYLVANIA STATE POLICE: You took a syringe and put it in your arm knowing that you were seven months pregnant. I`m struggling
with that. To me, that`s incomprehensible.
Baby`s not doing good at all. She`s -- she was resuscitated, I believe once, and she`s on a life support system now, which I assume is a
ventilator.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Casey tested positive for opioids. Needless to say, her boyfriend is facing charges because if responders had known about the
drugs, they may have been able to save that baby. To make matters worse, that couple had a 6-year-old daughter in the apartment when mommy OD`d.
The DA is now considering murder charges.
To experience the sobering reality, we took a trip to Huntington, West Virginia. It`s a blue-collar town in coal country, Appalachia, a railway
community on the banks of the Ohio River. But last August, 27 people OD`d in just four hours, and instantly, Huntington was thrust into the national
spotlight.
And officials say pay close attention because what`s happening there is headed for every town across America. So far this year, Huntington,
population 50,000, has had nearly a thousand ODs, most of them heroin or opioids.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(TEXT: August 15, 2016, Huntington WV saw 27 heroin overdoses in 4 hours)
CAPT. DERRICK RAY, PARAMEDIC SUPERVISOR, CABELL COUNTY EMS: It started on West 17th Street. There was two there, nothing out of the ordinary. Then
we get the call right over here, which is right two blocks down from where we are right now on Sycamore. They`re coming into the house and they`re
dying.
Derrick Ray, Cabell County EMS shift supervisor.
Four, five people -- we had 26 in four hours, is what they say. Most of them were within 45 minutes. I had to treat it like a mass casualty
incident.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The true reality is, is it doesn`t care. This epidemic claims not one single aspect of a certain nationality, of a certain
religion.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: John Music (ph). I`m a paramedic on A shift of Cabell County EMS.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You advised that you are clear.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I believe (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: EFM (ph). We`re clearing Cabell.
(INAUDIBLE) I need you to start towards 17 Washington Avenue, 1-7 Washington Avenue. (INAUDIBLE) cross street the first street, and on west
second street. (INAUDIBLE) overdose (INAUDIBLE) but he is breathing.
[20:05:04]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How often do you hear those?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Daily, every shift, on average, anywhere from 15 to 22 calls a shift. Most of those are a heroin overdose.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re on pace for 1,900 this year. How many deaths, I don`t know. But 1,900 out of a county that`s got 96,000 -- staggering
number.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For somebody to ask, you know, what the true reality of this problem is, is it`s bad.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If anything, it just makes you realize that -- how big the problem is. This is ground zero for the heroin epidemic, you know,
another overdose, another -- but that`s somebody`s kid, right, somebody`s mother or father. The lasting effect here is, is that it`s a generational
thing now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Joining me now, Gordon Merry. He`s the director of the Cabell County EMS. Captain Derrick Ray, you just saw him, he`s the paramedic
supervisor for the Cabell County EMS. And Sheriff Richard Jones -- he`s with the Butler County, Ohio, sheriff`s office.
Captain Ray, if I can begin with you, we`re hearing now that this panacea, Narcan, which saves addicts from dying from their ODs -- you`re now having
to use sometimes six, seven, eight of these doses just to revive one patient?
RAY: Yes, ma`am. Just the way they`re mixing it. They`re mixing with it the Fentanyl that you`ve heard about, the Carfentanyl, which is the
elephant tranquilizer. We just don`t know what it`s mixed with. And that`s what we try to tell people in our area, to be careful. I mean,
don`t do it. But if you`re going to do it, be careful. Know your supplier. Know what`s going on.
BANFIELD: But Captain Ray, we`re now reading about new drugs, Acryfentanyl, Tetrahydrofuran. I don`t even know if I`m pronouncing them
right. They`re so new. One of them`s not even on the banned list, but it`s lethal to the touch. And both of those are apparently resistant to
Narcan. Are you expecting to come in contact with those any time soon?
RAY: We are prepared for that. As you know, in Pennsylvania, they had a case that wasn`t too long ago. And so we`re expecting those things in our
area. So we try to stay up on the newest drug lingo. That way, we know what we`re dealing with. But you just don`t know. I mean, you don`t know
what every different case is going to be. That`s the sad situation.
BANFIELD: Gordon Merry, you know, as the director of the Cabell County EMS, you got to deal with budgets. You got to order those Narcan supplies.
Used to be, maybe one patient took one dose of Narcan at about $55 or so per dose. Now upwards of eight per patient. Can you afford the cost of
Narcan to deal with the thousand overdoses you`ve had?
GORDON MERRY, DIRECTOR, CABELL COUNTY EMS: Obviously, we`re going to deal with the cost. I mean, it`s the right thing to do. We want to give these
people a second chance, to try to resuscitate them, and hopefully, they`ll go into rehab. It`s a challenge, budgetary, but we are meeting all the
needs at this point in time.
BANFIELD: It`s a challenge budgetarily -- you know, I can understand that lingo, but I can`t understand what you do when that budget starts to
skyrocket and something else has to give. Are you almost at that point?
MERRY: No, ma`am, we`re not. The frustrating thing that we deal with is we`re an agency, first responder. We`re probably the only agency that the
Narcan is not given to. They give it to police, fire and to the user, but they do not give us to us. We have to purchase our own.
BANFIELD: Sheriff Richard Jones, you`re one of those policing agencies, and you say no to Narcan. You don`t want your officers, for a variety of
reasons, to be using it. Why is that?
RICHARD JONES, BUTLER COUNTY SHERIFF: Basically, we`re not going to use Narcan. When the courts order me to do it, we`ll use it. Basically, what
happens with Narcan is like the two gentlemen you had on there before, there`ll be four, five, six, seven, eight times. The life squads -- we
just had a life squad responding to an overdose. They wrecked the fire truck. Somebody run into them. They risked their lives to go out. The
fire people, the life squad people have to be around these needles.
When the police get there, sometimes they`re there first. It`s unsafe. These people don`t want the police there. They have to get down on their
knees, issue this Narcan. It`s very unsafe. The people are shouting, screaming. Some agencies won`t even issue Narcan or let them use it until
there`s two officers on scene.
Then when they come out of the -- after Narcan is introduced to their body, they become violent. They have to have a police officer escort in the
squad, or the squad won`t take them. The hospitals don`t want them.
I agree with the two gentlemen before you that it`s -- you know, they`re going to continue to do this, but it`s draining the public dry. And it`s -
- and people are talking. I`ve even heard legislators talking about, Do we have to go? I believe they don`t have any choice, but it`s very dangerous.
We`re not winning this battle. And Narcan is not the answer.
[20:10:19]BANFIELD: So Captain Ray, you`re one of those people who`s got to crouch down over that patient in an unseemly manner with an unseemly
surrounding at great danger to yourself. And yet you do it over and over, multiple times a day. Aren`t you afraid for your own safety, sir?
RAY: I see where the sheriff`s coming from, but we just kind of look at it as it`s -- you`re giving -- what Gordon said, you`re giving those people a
second chance. And you try to secure the scene the best you can, you know, check for weapons while they`re still unconscious before you give the
Narcan, before they wake up. You just -- these are things that we`re taught to do.
Like I said, I understand where the sheriff`s coming from. That`s just how we operate in our area.
BANFIELD: And I guess the question still comes back to the budget because if it`s not getting any better and the cost, like the sheriff says, is
skyrocketing, that means you`re going to have to face this and your small community is going to have to face this, and the good folks who aren`t
doing heroin are going to have to pay for it.
You -- you take an oath. You are in the health care profession. What about all those folks out there who are just bone dry and they`re fed up
and they don`t want to take it anymore, they don`t want to pay?
RAY (?): I would just say this. Like I said in that piece that you ran, it`s somebody`s kid, husband, wife, grandkid. You`re going to have
somebody on the air here in a bit that is raising their grandkids because of this. But there`s somebody there that can support them. And if we`re a
small role in that to give them a chance, then everything we`re doing is all worth it.
BANFIELD: Gordon Merry, you agree with that? I mean, I understand the notion that when it happens to you...
MERRY: Absolutely.
BANFIELD: ... everything changes. But what about all those people, so many who are jobless, and one in four people now has an addiction problem
in that community. Are the other three out of four supposed to pay for this?
MERRY: It`s very easy to judge people. The big problem is when it`s your loved one, it changes everything. And it`s easily to have happen in your
home to a loved one, to a family member. And I still believe that the right thing to do is to do everything humanly possible to give these people
another chance.
Does it get aggravating? Absolutely. It`s aggravating. But you`ve got to do the right thing. It`s not up to us to determine whether they live or
die.
BANFIELD: And I understand the aggravation. Sheriff Jones, I have heard it in your voice several times. I also wonder just about the policing
resources in these communities. Not only are you strapped trying to deal with the increase in the responses, but heroin calls and opioid overdose
calls are hijacking your cops from going to other crimes.
Where is this giving? Like, who`s suffering? Which crimes aren`t getting responses because of all the addicts?
JONES: Oh, it`s all of them. And the gentleman before you, their job is to save these people`s live. But there comes a point where they talk about
giving them a second chance -- they never mention the third chance, the fourth chance, the fifth chance, the sixth chance.
They have multiple children. We have more females throughout the country in jail. I`ve had three babies born in my jail, born to addicted mothers.
And the last one was born in the toilet. They force labor, so they can induce it, so they can get out and do heroin. They start at 13.
We`re not winning the war, we`re losing it. And people in the community, school teachers, retired people, they`re asking these questions, how much
do we have to do with this? And one woman told me yesterday, it was on your show, that it`s like cancer. But it`s not. Cancer, you don`t choose.
Drugs is an addiction. You choose to do it.
Most of the people don`t work. They`re not -- they don`t -- they don`t produce taxes. They don`t go to work. They go to the hospitals. I have
12 people that were in my jail, all pregnant ladies, who had 35 babies among them and the children`s services is about to explode. Like one of
the gentlemen said that you had there on the air tonight, they don`t keep the kids. And these babies are born. And where does it stop?
BANFIELD: Yes.
JONES: Seventy-six percent of all the illegal drugs in the world comes here to the United States.
BANFIELD: I think you...
JONES: Supply and demand.
BANFIELD: I think you put your finger on a critical, critical issue, Sheriff, the challenge of the addicts` families because they`re often the
ones who are left to raise heroin`s lost generation. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:15:00]UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Look at these children that have to be raised from their grandparents. They don`t have no parents. You just
can`t imagine all these young kids just dying.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: We`ve all seen the images, parents slumped over their steering wheels or passed out on the public floor while their babies cry for them to
wake up. But where do these children end up when Mom or Dad is just too strung out to care for them or even keep them safe?
[20:20:04]Well, often, it is the generation before them that`s left holding the bag. Meet Debbie, a Kentucky grandmother raising four, four
grandchildren, a newborn that just landed on her doorstep this month. Her daughter is a junkie and was using during all four pregnancies. Needless
to say, she can`t look after those babies, any of them. Debbie`s newborn grandson is at the Cabell Huntington Hospital, a hospital that has had to
dedicate an entire wing just to deal with all of the addicted babies.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(TEXT: Local officials, 1 in 4 residents is hooked on heroin or opioids.)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sean Loudon (ph), medical director of the neonatal therapeutic unit at Cabell Huntington Hospital.
We see that this is hard on everybody. You can`t walk through our community and not bump into somebody who in some form of fashion has had
their lives touched by substance abuse disorder.
DEBBIE, CARING FOR FOUR OF HER ADDICT DAUGHTER`S CHILDREN: My name is Debbie, and I live in Grayson (ph), Kentucky. I have now four grandbabies
that I`m going to be taking care of because I have custody of three. And now I`m getting this little feller, so that`ll be four.
She`s my daughter and I love her, and I try to get her help. It`s been a long time. I mean, she`s been on and off, and on and off. I mean, I do
the best I can, but it`s just a never-ending battle.
He was addicted to Suboxone. And I never known that her ever doing Suboxone. You know, I mean, I knew she went to the Methadone clinic and I
got her off that, now it`s Suboxone. I don`t know where she got it.
(TEXT: Suboxone, drug used to treat opiate addiction)
But I don`t see her that much. As a matter of fact, we never know she`s pregnant until she`s almost ready to drop.
Look at these children that have to be raised by their grandparents. They don`t have no parents. You just can`t imagine all these young kids just
dying. And they know. I mean, they know about the heroin and the meth, about how it`s going to -- I mean, it`s like -- I always say like they`re
playing Russian roulette. It`s not going to get any better. It`s going to get worse. I mean, it just gets worse every day.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Frankly, heroin is cheap and now, unfortunately, readily available in every community. And so it`s a form of an opiate
that, frankly, people are using so they just don`t get sick. And sometimes folks are using heroin not to get high but to, frankly, just function.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What does the future look like for you and your family in the next five years?
DEBBIE: I`ll be still raising the children. I will probably raise them until -- probably until the day I die. I want her to have them back and --
but I don`t see it. And I always feel, and me and my girls all feel the same, if you don`t get clean for your children, then you won`t get clean.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Grandmother of those four kids, Debbie, joins me now from Charleston, West Virginia. Debbie, first and foremost, we last spoke with
you a little under a month ago. How is that grandbaby boy doing?
DEBBIE: Oh, he`s doing awesome. He`s growing. He`s really good. I really don`t see a lot of withdrawal from him. And he is now 10 pounds.
BANFIELD: Well, that is good to hear. I mean, if there`s any good news in all of this, it`s that he`s growing healthily. But you are saddled with
four children at age 56. You yourself have been through cancer, multiple surgeries. You`re a cancer survivor. You should be going on grandmother
outings with one or two grandchildren, but you`re not.
DEBBIE: No, not at all.
BANFIELD: How are you going to manage this? I mean, honestly, if you say you think you`re going to be raising these kids until you die, do you have
it in you? Can you manage this a second time around?
DEBBIE: You have to do what you have to do. I mean, your children -- and that is my grandchild. So I mean, you do what you got to do. And I`ve got
a great support system with my other girls.
BANFIELD: These would be your daughter`s sisters, as I understand it. But these sisters have washed their hands of your addicted daughter. They want
nothing to do with her, is that correct?
DEBBIE: That`s pretty well correct, until she gets some help. But we will never wash our hands of the grandchildren and their nieces and nephews.
[20:25:04]BANFIELD: Can I ask you about all four of these grandchildren of yours that are effectively now your children? If I have it right, they
range in age from 12 years old all the way down to the little baby we saw in those pictures. Do they each have an affliction because of the exposure
to drugs in utero?
DEBBIE: Well, I`m sure they all have. The oldest one, she`s -- she`s got some hand deformity, but I mean, she`s doing good. She -- I don`t know if
that`s caused from the drugs or not. But she`s great. She`s bitter about the family situation, about her parents, about the drug abuse.
The 6-year-old, she`s doing great in school and stuff. And she yearns for her mother, and I understand that. But the 20-month-old don`t even know
who she is. He is a mamo`s (ph) boy. So he`s not -- he don`t understand what`s going on. And the last one, the fourth one, is -- well, he also --
as of right now, you know, he just needs some nurturing and someone to make sure that they take good care of him.
BANFIELD: Debbie, the statistics, you know, in your community are so alarming. One in four in your community is hooked on some kind of drug, is
addicted to something, and heroin is a huge contributor. You got four grandkids. So the statistics, if they bear out, it`s possible one of those
kids could wind up being addicted. Then add to that that they were exposed to drugs before they were even born.
Who will be there if that happens to them? Who will be there for their kids if they, like your daughter, have a baby and you don`t even know
before they are about to drop?
DEBBIE: Well, as long as I`m alive, I`ll be there for them. And I know that I have three daughters that step up to the plate every day to help.
So we all bind together to make sure that these children are taken care of and what their needs are being met. So we`ll make sure that they are
tooken care of.
BANFIELD: Debbie, I want to bring in Dr. Drew Pinsky to this conversation. He`s an addiction specialist and an HLN contributor. He`s live with me now
from Los Angeles.
Drew, I would love it if you would weigh in on this propensity issue because babies who are exposed in utero and are born suffering from
withdrawal -- do they have a greater propensity later in life to become addicts themselves if they`re exposed?
DR. DREW PINSKY, ADDICTION SPECIALIST, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: No. No, they do not.
BANFIELD: Either one.
PINSKY: No, they do not. No, they do not.
BANFIELD: Really?
PINSKY: No, they do not. Making something of this is anathema. It`s not -- You`re not helping the problem.
Having an addicted mom puts them at risk for it, having an abandoning mom, having the potential of inheriting the genetics puts them at risk for it.
But the in utero exposure, as you heard from this grandmother -- she was searching for some explanation for what you were looking for.
Opioid exposure during pregnancy, if you survive the pregnancy, if you don`t have (INAUDIBLE) growth retardation or a spontaneous abortion -- the
exposure itself does not harm these babies or put them at added risk of future addiction other than having the genetic potential and having an
abandoned mother who is herself an addict. But if that mother gets into recovery, some of that risk is mitigated.
I don`t know where...
BANFIELD: So the environment is it.
PINSKY: ... we`re going with this, Ashleigh. I`m very concerned about this conversation. I`m really disturbed about it. I had to sit through a
law enforcement officer talking about somebody with a mental illness, allowing them to die because it`s expensive. Why don`t we just kill them?
Why don`t we just -- why allow them passively to die? Why don`t we just kill addicts because they`re a burden to the system? That`s what`s being
advocated by the law enforcement guy.
If you notice, the first responders there were nonplused, were mortified by that suggestion. Look -- and the Narcan expense is nothing compared to the
expense of putting somebody on a ventilator for five days because you found them down and you didn`t give them the Narcan.
So this entire discussion to me has been so disturbing, I almost can`t contain myself. I`ve got to tell you, Ashleigh, this has been a profoundly
disturbing conversation.
BANFIELD: Well, it`s...
PINSKY: These people have a -- the DSM-V medical diagnosed...
BANFIELD: I can understand.
PINSKY: ... illness...
BANFIELD: I can understand.
PINSKY: ... and doctors and psychologists...
BANFIELD: Drew?
PINSKY: ... are spending all of our time...
BANFIELD: I hear you.
PINSKY: ... treating this.
BANFIELD: I hear you.
PINSKY: This is not a social problem. This is a medical problem that has social consequences.
BANFIELD: Drew, I can understand. And it isn`t like you`re first person to say this. We`ve been doing this all week long.
PINSKY: And?
BANFIELD: But there are a lot of people watching right now who don`t live in a fancy, you know, LA office with a fancy...
PINSKY: What are you talking about?
PINSKY: ... Starbucks next door...
PINSKY: I work all over the country on this issue!
BANFIELD: They`re out of work.
PINSKY: What are you talking about?
BANFIELD: They`re exhausted. Hold on. Hold on, Drew.
PINSKY: And we`re talking about not just heroin...
BANFIELD: They`re exhausted. They`re broke.
PINSKY: ... we`re talking about people on pills!
BANFIELD: And they`re having to look after all of these...
PINSKY: ... on pills. No, they`re not.
BANFIELD: ... addiction problems.
PINSKY: No -- OK...
BANFIELD: And abandoned children.
PINSKY: So -- so...
BANFIELD: It all falls on the system, Drew.
PINSKY: So Ashleigh, therefore, any other medical mental illness that burdens the system, we have to let those people die. Is that what we`re
saying, we got to abandon their care?
(CROSSTALK)
[20:30:00]
DREW PINSKY, ADDICTION MEDICINE SPECIALIST: We are talking about people on pills. We are talking about people on pills.
ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HOST OF PRIMETIME JUSTICE: They`re exhausted. They`re broke. And they have to look after all of these addiction problems.
PINSKY: No, they`re not.
BANFIELD: . and abandoned children. They all fall on the system, Drew.
PINSKY: Okay, so, so, Asleigh, therefore, any other medical mental illness that burdens the system, we have to let those people die, is that what
you`re saying? We would abandon their care? There are many mental illnesses that fill this damn profile.
BANFIELD: So your (inaudible) tell you they made these choices. They made these choices.
PINSKY: Go look out on the choices. Choices. If they had a choice not to use, do you think they`d be continuing to use? Think how easy my job would
be if I can print some not to use, don`t make that choice, you know, you`re choosing to use heroin. There`s no choice when you`re strung out on heroin.
BANFIELD: I think if you talk to the sheriff, he`s pretty convinced that (inaudible) experiencing what he`s experiencing years and years.
PINSKY: Oh, good, then he can work in the treatment field with me.
BANFIELD: This is frustrating to them.
PINSKY: I`m sure he`s frustrated.
BANFIELD: And I think our viewers who live in this community are exhausted by it.
PINSKY: Look, one in four of them have family members who are addicted. They are struggling to help these people. You might as well have any other
mental illness or medical illness plugged in there. And that`s the condition that these families are dealing with.
The addiction sucks in the entire family and communities you are saying and it all started with prescription medication. Heroin only comes in after the
prescription medications have cut off. You saw 13,000 heroin overdoses, but 50,000 overdoses overall, that`s all pills. And that is something that even
in that community in West Virginia, is a major persistent issue.
BANFIELD: The harsh reality for addicts who are working towards sobriety but obviously struggling with it every day makes a big difference in this
conversation. Actually having to face down that temptation every single day. Take a look at this.
(START VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s hard as an addict to be in recovery in this area. You can step out my front door and throw a rock and hit three dope dealers.
It can take a spur of the moment decision of, you know, this might be fun for a moment and your life is over.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: Heroin withdrawal can bring the toughest man to his knees. The symptoms are excruciating, sweating, shaking, vomiting, cramps, diarrhea,
chill. So now just think about a brand-new 6-pound baby. How is a baby supposed to weather that storm all alone and so new to the world? Lily`s
place is a facility that treats newborn babies suffering from heroin withdrawal and other drugs and Cassandra`s baby is there.
(START VIDEO CLIP)
SARA MURRAY, NEONATAL NURSE, FOUNDER OF LILY`S PLACE: Waking up with Lily, it`s a combination of things. A baby we had one time that bad things
happened to, and another one of those situations where I said never again on my watch. And the Bible. There`s a verse that says consider the lilies
of the field. They neither toil nor slumber, but God still watches over them. And so we look at our babies as little lilies.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s my little angel. I feel like she saved my life this time. If it wasn`t for her, I probably wouldn`t be here. It started
probably when I was 15, when my grandpa passed away. He was the one that raised me, he was like my dad. It just kind of evolved from there. That`s
when I found heroin and OxyContin and that sort of thing.
I`ve completed a year-long rehab. I`ve been incarcerated. I`ve been at all, you know. It`s hard as an addict to be in recovery in this area. And you
can step out my front door and throw a rock and hit three dope dealers. It`s something that consumes every thought, every waking moment, you know.
Once you try it, there`s this switch or something that it just flips that switch and that`s it.
That`s all you can think about. It can take a spur of the moment decision of, you know, this might be fun for a moment and your life is over. She got
me back out of that relapse. So, she saved me for her and her brother.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Joining me now, Sara Murray, who is a neonatal nurse and the founder of Lily`s Place. Sara, thank you so much for being with us. One in
10 babies born at the hospital where you work is born with withdrawal symptoms, the seizures, the shakes, the vomiting, the diarrhea. How do you
work in those conditions? What it is like to be you?
MURRAY: Some days, it`s stressful to be me, but most days we focus on taking care of the babies, making them comfortable. That`s one of our main
goals. We want to make sure that they`re not suffering. We work with the mothers and we try to teach her how to care for her baby and some days are
long.
BANFIELD: So, we`re looking at pictures of Lily`s Place where these babies will go after their sometimes three or four week stay in the NICU. And I
want to talk a little bit about that NICU because in your community, there are 36 beds and the doctors say 20 of them, 20 of the 36 have had to be
dedicated to babies in withdrawal which leaves only 16 for any other babies born with any special need or special emergency. How do you handle those
numbers and can you sustain that?
MURRAY: That was the case. Actually, five years ago, we had 36 bed units.
[20:40:00] Five years ago, we opened a unit. A 15-bed unit dedicated solely to the care of these babies who are prenatally exposed and we have a
special low stimulus environment. We have learned how to care for them. 269 per thousand live births in our hospital are babies that are prenatally
exposed. So we`re a busy unit. And it is extremely busy some days because some days we may have 21 to 25 babies in that unit and that`s where Lily`s
Place is helpful to us.
BANFIELD: Can you tell me -- I mean, I`m just trying to do the math on 21 days in a NICU for a baby. Who is paying that bill?
MURRAY: Insurance and Medicaid, I`m sure. That`s not my job, but I know somebody pays for it.
BANFIELD: Yeah, how much of it is actually insurance?
MURRAY: Not very much.
BANFIELD: Yeah. Is there one story that stands out for you in the work that you`ve done, in the people that you`ve come across, in the babies that
you`ve seen?
MURRAY: There are a lot of stories. Everybody has a story, but several years ago, before we opened this unit, there was a young mother and she had
several babies in our unit. And she was a heroin addict and some days, I get really frustrated with her. She would steal things from the other
parents and she was always under the influence when she came in.
Sometimes, she would come in and talk to me. She did not get to take her baby home with her. After she was discharged, the housekeeper brought me a
red binder, a dirty red binder. And she said, I found this. Do you want me to throw it away? I said, no, let`s keep it. She might come back for it. So
time passed and I pulled it out one day and opened it. And it was her journal.
She was writing letters to God saying, these are my hopes and dreams. When I read it, she had hopes and dreams just like every other young woman in
any city in the United States or anywhere. She wanted to get her children back. She had three children that had been placed elsewhere. She wanted to
get off drugs. She wanted to be clean.
And then she said something and she said, God, just send one person to help me. After that, I thought why wasn`t I that one person? And so she came
back again but she was in a very bad place and didn`t visit. And her mother finally called me and said that they found her on the river bank and she
had overdosed and died. And I said never again on my watch will a mother not have a chance to get help.
And since that day -- and it`s probably been eight or 10 years ago, every mother that comes in our unit that wants help, I will find a way to get her
help. It`s not easy and some days I`m on the phone a lot trying to call and get places for them to go, but every mother that comes in our unit will
have the opportunity to get help if she so desires.
BANFIELD: Well, you are an angel. Sara Murray, thanks so much, not only for being with us tonight, but for the work that you`re doing.
MURRAY: Thank you.
BANFIELD: And for the battle you`re in every day on the front lines. We appreciate it.
A 21-year-old addict confronted by her family faces her demons and agrees to get help. We`re going to take you inside her intervention.
(START VIDEO CLIP)
DESTINIE BAILAS, HEROIN ADDICT: So we have to go today?
BRAD LAMM, INTERVENTIONIST: Yeah, we`re going today. No negotiation, no delay. I`m not a bullshitter. I`m not offering you something that`s not
real. But I`m not going to play there`s somebody else that wants this if you don`t.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: When newborns are addicted, when mothers overload grandmothers with children, when families have had enough, then what? They turn to
intervention. One by one, family members confront the addict about how their drug use has ruined their lives.
Brad Lamm, a board-certified interventionist has been through many of them. He allowed us to witness a recent intervention. It was planned in advance
with consent of all parties as Brad offered free treatment to a young woman named Destinie.
(START VIDEO CLIP)
BRAD LAMM, INTERVENTIONIST: When was the first time that you tried a drug like opioid or heroin or fentanyl or that kind of drug?
BAILAS: Now it was like a year, like a little bit over a year now. The first time I tried it, I fell in love.
LAMM: Wow. I want to ask you, why did you reach out last week and say, Oh my God, I think I`m going to lose her? Will you help? What was the impetus?
LYNN MONTADON, DESTINIE`S GRANMOTHER: Because I thought I was going to lose her. We did lose her. She flat lined. If there hadn`t been people there to
do CPR and even though they broke her ribs while doing it, she wouldn`t be here today. She also aspirated.
LAMM: Which means when you overdose on an opioid, you sometimes throw up.
MONTADON: Right.
[20:50:00] LAMM: Then it will get stuck in your throat. You were choking and then your brain was saying, I`m so full of this drug that I`m going to
stop breathing. So that`s what happened.
FRANCINE HOBBS, DESTINIE`S GRANDMOTHER: I was there. I saw her.
LAMM: Okay. Right there the whole time?
HOBBS: No, that was the hardest thing.
LAMM: Do you think I`m going to lose her? Has there been a point where you just think I`m ready for that phone call?
AMBER BALAIS, DESTINIE`S AUNT: Quite frankly I was frustrated. Look at her. She`s a baby girl. She`s beautiful.
LAMM: What is your hope for this family? What does that look like?
AMEY SAMUELS, DESTINIE`S MOTHER: I just want her to get better. I feel like I`m on borrowed (ph) time with her right now. I feel like -- when she`s out
there on the streets, at any given moment, any day that she could get something bad and not be with somebody that can help her come out of it
like this time.
LAMM: When was the last time you used drugs then?
BAILAS: Today.
LAMM: Today. Yeah. And so when you think about quitting, that`s really hard because your brain tells you, you have to keep going or you`ll get sick.
BAILAS: Yes.
LAMM: If you said on a scale of 1 to 10, how open are you to help?
BAILAS: Well, a 10.
LAMM: A 10.
BAILAS: Yes.
LAMM: That`s pretty good. A 10 is good. So I have a hospital-based detox bed reserved in your name. All you have to do is pack a bag. And then six
months of treatment. I`m going to offer that to you right now. Now, all I`ll ask is you have to give it your all. It`s called Breathe Life Healing
Center in West Hollywood.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Brad Lamm intervention.com joins me live now. What`s the prognosis for Destinie?
LAMM: Well, just today, she left detox. She had a good long detox, hospital-based detox (inaudible). We took her to Breathe today where she
will have 90 days to six months of treatment. The odds are are that if she completes treatment that she`ll have a new life.
BANFIELD: So the odds are if you get through those 90 days, is it 70 percent if you`re a heroin addict?
LAMM: Yeah, time is really a tool. In fact, until that time, even into the 60-day range, she`ll be still in pause. Your body tells you, I need that
tickle. In fact, I think I`m going to be sick if I don`t get it. And so that drives you to get high. It`s not that we like getting high so much,
it`s that it`s so much easier to get high than to get better.
BANFIELD: So the business about getting high, a lot of our viewers think to hell with these guys, they`re all just getting high. The truth of the
matter is doctors are telling us the majority of these addicts now aren`t getting high. They`re just using to function, just to stay normal, just not
to hurt.
LAMM: Yes. And majority of people that struggle, we don`t even know it. They`re hiding in plain sight. They`re going to work, they`re keeping it
together. The ones that we notice are the ones that are screw-ups, are less able to keep things afloat. It`s all around us. If you substitute a little
compassion or the judgment that it`s so easy to feel, I think it will never serve us wrong.
BANFIELD: Well, there`s judgment for moral reasons, then there`s judgment for financial reasons, and they`re different.
LAMM: We`re so quick to lock folks up, put them in prison, but we`re so slow to treat people in thoughtful evidence-based ways. I think that
doesn`t serve us at all. A lot of that stuff is old-school thinking, you know. People struggled with alcohol for a long time and it was thought of
as a moral failing, now we know it`s alcoholism. I think there`s still this judgment around heroin that`s such a dirty, dark secret and our kids are
dying from it.
BANFIELD: Well, we don`t coddle alcoholics though. 88,000 of them died last year and no one is rolling out programs like Narcan for alcoholics. That`s
the difference.
LAMM: Well, people are in line to get organs, people are in line to get transfusions because they`re sick. People are dying from pancreatitis.
BANFIELD: Let me ask you something real quickly, this new drug that`s come out, it`s so new it`s not even banned yet. Tetrahydrofuran. Is that how I
pronounce it?
LAMM: Fair enough.
BANFIELD: Okay. Tetrahydrofuran. Comes from China. Synthetic.
LAMM: Comes from China. A little bit will cut into a huge amount of the street drug. And so it`s almost impossible to stay ahead of.
BANFIELD: Resistant to Narcan.
LAMM: Yeah, but you say it`s not illegal yet because it hasn`t been classified.
BANFIELD: Right.
LAMM: So chemists in china are making this junk and then sending it to us.
BANFIELD: Brad, it`s deadly to the touch. That just makes me think, well, if users are using public bathrooms and my kid goes in to use the public
bathroom.
[20:55:00] LAMM: I would say don`t fall into that hysteria.
BANFIELD: Really?
LAMM: Because there is so little of that as part of the epidemic. Look, what`s killing our kids today by large is the heroin on the street that is
cut with synthetics and it`s the good old-fashioned heroin. You know, it`s not going to kill you to touch.
BANFIELD: So you don`t think that is a problem? That there is a new stuff out there.
LAMM: That`s a problem.
BANFIELD: Yeah.
LAMM: But remember when AIDS hysteria took a hold and it was like don`t touch a person that`s sick.
BANFIELD: Well, that was because it was true.
LAMM: Well, but the thinking then was you could get all these different kind of ways. If that drug, which is out there, if we`re thinking that all
these other drugs are that, then we`re going to talk ourselves into a frenzy and then we`re going to fall into a trap like that dumb sheriff who
is saying we should just let people die on the street.
BANFIELD: A lot of people agree with the sheriff.
LAMM: It`s wrong-headed and it keeps people from helping.
BANFIELD: I got it. I got to leave it there. Will you come back?
LAMM: Yeah.
BANFIELD: It`s great to have you. Thanks so much. And thank you for the work you do as well, Brad.
LAMM: You bet.
BANFIELD: All right. We`ll be back right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: If there`s one thing about America, it`s that our 50 states are indeed a union. And if we are going to fight this war against heroin, we
are going to have to fight it together. We all want the same thing, we`re just not exactly sure how are we going to get there. You can say what you
want about congress. But they made a good start last year dedicating a billion dollars to resolving this crisis.
From treatment options right to the new medications that help addict for long. But if our current trajectory stays the same, a billion dollars is
not going to cut it. We need citizens everywhere to take this crisis seriously, whether it has taken over your town or whether it`s about to.
There`s a lot we have to do and a lot we have to be -- focused, committed, compassionate, resolute.
But most of all, we got to be brutally aware, especially when it comes to teaching our kids and keeping them clean. Coming up next, CNN`s Lisa Ling
goes to Chicago to investigate whether a gentler approach to heroin use is being applied equally to the rich and to the poor, to the black and the
white.
[21:00:00] "Life With Lisa Ling" begins right now. Thanks for watching. I`m Ashleigh Banfield.
END
