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Trump Visits Poland; Clashes Expected at G-20; Trump Faces Tests; Trumps' Meeting with Putin. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired July 05, 2017 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:00] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: A North Korean missile launch has raised the stakes for a possible nuclear crisis. In a CNN exclusive, U.S. Defense Officials say that the two-stage missile launched by North Korea is a brand new weapon that has not been seen before. Pentagon Correspondent Barbara Starr joins me now with the details. Barbarra, what have you learned?

BARBARA STARR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, John. What U.S. officials are telling me is they have not seen this missile before. When they initially looked at it after the launch, they thought it was a missile that they were familiar with, something called the KN-17 liquid fuel, but after looking at all of the data, all the intelligence, they began to calculate it, it was a actually a two-stage missile perhaps a bit of deception by the North Korean. They put out the missile that was expected and then suddenly put another stage on top of it. Why is that so significant?

It is because this is now the configuration that gives the North Koreans the eventual capability for that intercontinental ballistic missile that could someday strike the U.S. Are they there yet? No, this is just the first test demonstrating that capability. They will have to make a lot of improvements to be able to make it actually hit out, you know, an intercontinental target, specifically the West Coast of Alaska. But what the U.S. is seeing is North Korea is living up to the threat.

They were going to -- said they were going to test, they said they were going to develop and that's exactly what they are doing. Now putting President Trump in the position as he heads towards the G20 summit meeting with the Russian President with other world leaders having to come up with a plan about what to do. We have seen the U.S. now, yesterday fire back a drill, a test of its own missiles that could strike targets in North Korea. Nobody's looking for a military confrontation, but people are looking for a U.S. solution to this, President Trump may have to come up with some ideas for it. John?

BERMAN: It will be interesting to hear what he says when he lands. Barbara Starr at the Pentagon. Thank you so much. The tensions over North Korea will loom large in the G20 summit. That is where the President is headed right now. It is only of the few major foreign policy tests for the President. Right now he is on his way to Poland, one of the most important aspects of this trip, in Poland then Germany, the President's face-to-face meeting with the Russian Leader Vladimir Putin. International Diplomatic Editor Nick Robertson in Hamburg, Germany where the G20 will take place. Nick, at this point, what are expecting from this one-on-one between the President and the Russian Leader?

NICK ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: You know, the kremlin today gave us an indication, John. They said that there wouldn't be time for President Putin in this meeting with President Trump to fully explain the Russian's views and understanding about Ukraine. And I think you can read between the lines here and see very clearly, Russia does not expect to change President Trump's mind over Ukraine. So, they'll talk about it. Don't expect anything to happen.

On Syria, the Russians are saying that they want to talk about a pathway to peace, how to get peace there, they're promoting their talks that (INAUDIBLE) peaceful which I have to say having talk to some Syrian opposition in the past few days. They say those talks are dead but clearly Russia and Putin is going to try and push his peace agenda at the same time is saying, we will work with you, President Trump for fighting terrorism in Syria but we know what the Pentagon says about Russia's claims to fight terrorism in Syria. They find those claims hallow. That's not what Russia does. So I think we can expect those topics to come up but don't expect any big ground to be covered. Undoubtedly the paradigm will mention North Korea as well.

BERMAN: And of course President Trump will also meet with the Chinese Leader Xi Jinping. This is about a couple months after they met for the first time. It seems a lot has changed over those few months, Nick.

ROBTERSON: Yes. Look, you know, are sales, $1.4 billion worth of arm sales to Taiwan, sanctioning the Chinese bank because it wasn't important sanctions fully on North Korea. You know, the state department downgrading China's human rights rating in the world to sort of one of the lowest in the world. You know, the trade differences between them, President Trump has tweeted today, U.S. made some of the worst trade deals in history, why should we continue with those deals with those countries that do nothing to help us as the real expectation on the Chinese part, there may be tariffs or maybe quotas put on, you know, on what President Trump has calls of dumping of Chinese steel.

So, there are all those hurdles between the paradigm before that they - before they begin to repair that relationship, before they can even begin to see eye-to-eye if this falls apart on that -- on North Korea. Russia, Putin and Xi Jinping yesterday agreed that the United States was part of the problem in North Korea. That they should deescalate and not have their military activity in -- with the South Korean forces there. And that they should remove the THAAD missile defense system from South Korea. So this pair, Putin -- rather President Trump and Xi Jinping are so far apart when you look back at Mar-a-Lago earlier this year.

[13:05:08] That seems like almost, you know, years ago, not just months ago, John.

BERMAN: A very different time. Nick Robertson in Hamburg. Thank you very, very much. Let's talk more about the foreign policy minefield that President Trump will soon have to navigate. Joining me, Ambassador Richard Haas, the president of the council and foreign relations. He's also the author of World in Disarray, a new documentary based on his book airs on HBO, July 21st. Ambassador, if I can, I want to start with North Korea, our Barbara Starr, this is a new kind of missile, a two-stage intercontinental ballistic missile. How should that change the calculus for the United States?

RICHARD HAAS, PRESIDENT, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: It is new, North Korea had shortage range missiles, they've had nuclear weapons for some time but the idea of marring the nuclear warheads on missiles that can reach the continent of United States is a major development. Look, one way or another, we've got to respond, the options are to live with it and have some combination of deterrence and defense, to attack it with all the uncertainties of what that would lead to or to try to negotiate some limits on it. Those are essentially our three choices, at the moment we haven't chosen but we're going to have to sooner than later.

BERMAN: You say acceptance not really a palpable option, intervention, military intervention, not really a realistic options either. You say the United States needs to explore the possibility of negotiation. What would that look like with North Korea?

HAAS: Well, I should say the other two options are realistic options. They're risky either way and we may come down to them if negotiates don't work. If we were to try negotiations though and I think we should by the way because they might were but even if they don't, then that's a useful step to take before you take something that's costlier and riskier. Some kind of a limit on the North Korean capability, some kind of a freeze on production, testing, inspections, we in turn would probably have to give them a degree of diplomatic recognition perhaps some sanctions reduction. It wouldn't solve the problem, it would not get them out of the nuclear business but it would significantly bound or limit the problem.

BERMAN: So you do say we should not rule out the possibility of military action but at the same time, you also say that the U.S. should never use the terminology surgical strike when dealing with North Korea. What do you mean by that?

HAAS: A surgical strike is one of the phrases that really ought to be banned. It implies that somehow you can do something small and antiseptic and it will solve the problem. But here if we were to use military force against North Korea, it would require an awful lot of force because we have to take out every known missile and nuclear site, plus limit a lot of their capabilities to retaliate essentially would mean going to war and then on size plus take out a lot of their ability to retaliate, essentially going to war and then on response we can't rule out that the North Koreans would not retaliate with thousands of missiles and artillery shells and so forth. Essentially, we would have to go into it assuming we are going to be in a second Korean War. So this idea that there's something small and antiseptic or surgical just ought to be should be jettisoned from the debate.

BERMAN: What do you make of how the president has dealt with China over the last 24 hours? Because he went on Twitter, he made an official statement on Twitter. He said, trade between China and North Korea grew almost 40 in the first quarter. So much for China working with us but we had to give it a try. The president made a show of having the Chinese leader to Mar-a-Lago, they met, he seem to be pressuring him then kindly to go after North Korea. Now seems to be taking a different approach.

HAAS: Well, China has the most influence over North Korea, not control but it has - it has considerable influence. They use some of it but not most - much less of all it. So I think it's legitimate for the United States to put more pressure on China to use the leverage it has even though it attempts to deny it. I'm not sure speaking about it publicly is the best way to bring it about.

BERMAN: Well -

HAAS: It may actually create something of a political problem for Xi Jinping.

BERMAN: But what about -

HAAS: But the pressuring China legitimate.

BERMAN: What about that? Because the President has been very public all of a sudden about, you know, pressuring President Xi. He's been going on Twitter, these are statements that the whole world can see. Do you think that's a mistake?

HAAS: Well, again, China has politics too and you have to ask yourself is this more likely they get the response we want? I say not because the Chinese don't want to be seen to be pressuring North Korea because they in turn are being pressured by the United States. There's strong nationalist sentiment there, you've got to take it into account in how we go about our diplomacy.

BERMAN: Now, this is not the only thing on the President Trump's plate as he heads to the G20 right now. He also has to deal with Russian Leader Vladimir Putin, they will have a face-to-face meeting on Friday. As of now, the White House says there are no specific plans to bring up the Russian election meddling. Is that a mistake?

HAAS: Oh, most definitely. First of all, you shouldn't go into a meeting like this without a - all sorts of specific plans. Putin will have an agenda, we should have one as well. And this needs to be on the agenda, what they did is totally illegitimate. It's unacceptable. I think we ought to retaliate to it. And I think we also ought to put down a marker that if they continue it against us or anybody else, there will be further repercussions.

[15:10:08] BERMAN: So it's interesting that you say this because you are someone that the President says he likes and listens to. I think he's a big fan of your commentary on T.V. So, let's assume that the President is watching an Air Force run right now. What's your message to him as he heads to the G20?

HAAS: First of all, he shouldn't be watching this. He should be preparing for his meeting with Putin and his meeting with Xi Jinping and all the European leaders because he's also going to have issues of trade, climate change, what to do about the Middle East, would gutter Saudi Arabia, Iran. And this is a - this is a loaded inbox he's walking into in Europe right now.

BERMAN: Well, maybe he'll read the transcript afterwards and if he did read the transcript, what would your advice be specifically on President Putin?

HAAS: I think we need to have a balance agenda with them, a comprehensive one. We ought to push on Ukraine, to get them to cease through the destabilization in the east, make clear there won't be any sanctions relief until they do. We got to push hard on the interference in our elections, but we ought to be open to areas of cooperation say in Syria or anywhere elsewhere where we can, conceivably, North Korea, though I'm more worried about Russian mischief making there where they seem to be in some ways complementing what China has done in being a source of support. But we ought to have a broad comprehensive relationship with them. I don't think talking to Putin is a favor we do - to do for him. I mean, talking is a tool of American foreign policy. So meetings like this to me in principle are welcome as long as they are conducted in a smart, tough way.

BERMAN: We'll have to wait and see for the results. It will be a fascinating few days. Ambassador Richard Haas, always a pleasure to speak to you. Thank you so much, sir.

HAAS: Thank you.

BERMAN: All right. Poland pulled out all the stops for President Trump. Why he had expect a warmer welcome there before a chilly reception from other European leaders. And a New York City police officer and apparent of three ambush assassinated on the beat. What we are learning about the fallen officer and the moments leading to her death.

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[13:16:00] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: In just a few hours, President Trump will land in Poland. This is part of his crucial overseas trip. The president is making a 15-hour stop in the country before heading off to Germany for the G-20 Summit. And while his agenda is expected to include tense meetings with German Chancellor Angela Merkel and Russian President Vladimir Putin, he can expect a much warmer reception in Poland.

Here to explain why, CNN's senior international correspondent Ben Wedeman.

Ben.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, John, this is a country that traditionally has warmly welcomed U.S. presidents going back to Richard Nixon, who came here in May of 1972. And even though the communist regime at the time told people not to go and greet him, to stay at home, apparently large crowds came out to greet Nixon and it's expected that many people will attend the ceremony - rather the address he's going to give at the Warsaw Uprising Memorial tomorrow afternoon.

And, of course, Poland is a country that spends at least 2 percent of its GDP on defense, which is something that President Trump harangued European leaders in May at the G-7 Summit. So this is a country that by and large is well disposed to President Trump.

Having said that, it's worth pointing out that the Pew Research Institute, on its recent global poll on opinions of President Trump and other leaders, found that only 23 percent of Polish respondents have confidence in President Trump's ability to deal with global affairs, compared to Angela Merkel, who has an approval rating of 46 percent. So this is a government, a rightist, populist government that shares President Trump's skepticism about things like climate change and the need to welcome refugees and migrants to Europe. But - so they will put on a warm reception. Not all Poles clearly share the opinion of the government here.

John.

BERMAN: You talk about a warm reception. How are they planning on filling the audience, Ben?

WEDEMAN: Well, we understand from the social media presence of some of the members of parliament here, of the ruling law and justice party, that they are providing free transportation from various cities outside of Warsaw, to the capital, so people can attend his address tomorrow. And afterwards, they're going to be holding a picnic. So there's something of a draw. And facilities for anybody who does want to attend. But the government, however, has not said one way or the other whether they're actually encouraging or facilitating people to attend his address.

John.

BERMAN: All right, Ben Wedeman in Warsaw. Ben, thanks so much. Everyone loves a picnic.

Now to the somewhat chilly reception. It will be no picnic for the president at the G-20 Summit. We are told both sides are expecting a new round of clashes between the president and leaders, including German Chancellor Angela Merkel. The European leaders President Trump meets with this week are the same ones that he sat down with just six weeks ago at the G-7. The president said to have left those meetings feeling picked on, outnumbered. And you will recall that the German chancellor vented afterward that Europe could no longer rely on the United States as a steady partner.

And now, just one day out from the meeting with the president, Angela Merkel's tone has not changed. The chancellor told her parliament last week, quote, "anyone who thinks that the world's problems can be solved with isolationism and protectionism is simply delusional."

Joining us now to discuss, the head of the Wilson Center, former member of Congress, Jane Harman, CNN political analyst and senior congressional correspondent for "The Washington Examiner," David Drucker, and CNN political commentator and contributing editor with "The Atlantic," Peter Beinart.

[13:20:00] Congresswoman, I want to start with you.

You know, the G-7 was awkward. The meetings with NATO, awkward. How awkward will the G-20 be? And - I mean, are they really meeting as allies or adversaries here?

JANE HARMAN, DIRECTOR, PRESIDENT, CEO, THE WILSON CENTER: Well, it occurs to me that the stop in Poland is also a do over. That will be President Trump's opportunity to say he does support Article 5 after he personally left it out of his speech a few weeks ago in Europe, which stunned his own advisors and everyone else. So, check, that will help, I think.

But it's going to be awkward. A lot of the countries, and there's a new leader in France, feel that our country, sadly, is out of step with where they want to go. And I think one of the things that I - if Trump could do it over, he might consider doing over was dropping out of the climate accord, because that's creating dissention around the world and giving opportunity to others to lead, including, let's imagine, China and Russia. And they're going to play a big role if something positive occurs on North Korea and we may play a small role.

BERMAN: You haven't seen any signs that he has any regrets of pulling out of the Paris Accords. Maybe on Article 5. Maybe the trip to Poland is something that's seen as a little bit of a clean-up after his trip to Belgium before.

But, David, in terms of repairing these relationships, who do you think needs to go further at this point? Do you think the president needs to perhaps be a little bit warmer, or is this something that the European leaders, in particular, they need to go the extra mile?

DAVID DRUCKER, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: You know, I don't think it's so much, John, about relationships as opposed to reasserting that the United States is a western leader that is going to uphold NATO and send a message to adversaries Russia and China that they're not messing around. And I think part of the president's problem has been the indecision that his preference for unpredictability or just sort of a lack of attention to detail has sent. Our allies haven't known whether or not they can depend on us. Our adversaries have felt open to testing us because they don't know how the president's going to respond.

And I - at the end of the day, even though personal relationships are very important, I don't think it's so much that big of a deal that Angela Merkel and President Trump have a warm personal regard. But Germany needs to know that the U.S. upholds Article 5 and is not going to take any guff from the Russians. And I think Vladimir Putin needs to understand that we see them as an adversary and don't have any delusions, as past Democratic and Republican presidents did, that somehow we can find a detente with them and work with them. And I think if the president can use this trip to do that, I think it would be a big success, no matter what leaders in Europe think of him personally.

BERMAN: So, Peter Beinart, possible sticking points, possible areas of agreement?

PETER BEINART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, there are a lot of areas of agreement that include almost everybody except the United States. I mean, right? Almost every leader at that G-20 believes in the Paris Accords on climate change, believes that climate change is a real threat and actually wants to do something about it. The United States -

BERMAN: The president - the president's out. I mean the U.S. is out.

BEINART: Right. And so the United States is totally isolated on that. Most of the major leaders also basically agree with the basic ideal of a liberal trading order, which has not only been good economically for the world, but has helped to keep the peace since World War II. Trump is also isolated on that. He's even isolated on North Korea that he needs the Chinese and the Russians who actually have a much more workable plan, actually, on North Korea than does Trump. So on almost every major issue, he's isolated. And I think on every major issue, he's actually wrong.

BERMAN: Well, Peter Beinart, speaking from that side. Congresswoman, but where then are there possible areas of agreement? He laid out where there would be areas of conflict. Is there anywhere where the president of the United States can come together?

HARMAN: Ys. Yes. On NATO. I mean he's back in. And NATO is a crucial defense organization in Europe and a wedge against Russian aggression. Both of - Peter and the other commentator were right about being strong against Putin. When Trump meets with him, and that's something you haven't asked us about yet, he has to be strong. Putin will perceive any sort of comfort level and friendliness as weakness. It also will offend everybody else in Europe. And there is no good reason to be friendly with Russia right now. Keep the relationship going, collaborate on the Arctic, which is something - the Polar Initiative - that the Wilson Center has. That's a place we can work together. But with respect to aggression in Ukraine, absolutely not.

BERMAN: You know, David Drucker, just meeting with -

DRUCKER: And, John, that's where the visit -

BERMAN: Go ahead. Go ahead, David.

DRUCKER: I was going to say, that's where the visit to Poland can actually be very worthwhile. Russia has always looked at Poland as a sort of buffer border state that they like to think that they have influence over and control. The fact that the president's stopping there to give a speech, regardless of the sort of character of the speech, it, in a sense, it can send a message to Vladimir Putin that - that we see Europe as our sphere of influence and aren't seeding any ground.

And on Russia and China, I think that the - their deal, their proposed deal to deal with North Korea should be a wake-up call for the administration, for this president in particular, that he cannot rely on them to be his friends when it comes to dealing with major U.S. sticking points. Whatever these countries says about wanting to help the U.S. address issues of terrorism and other global hot spots, their interest is our disinterest. They want - they are - their interest is satisfied when we're caught up in problems and controversies and they will do what they can to sort of facilitate that. And I think that's an important thing for him to learn as this North Korea crisis unfolds.

BEINART: Wow.

[13:25:33] BERMAN: Go ahead, Peter.

BEINART: I have to say, I really disagree with a lot of that. First of all, I think the character of what he says in Poland matters enormously because he's going to a Polish government that has become increasingly authoritarian, done some of the - in a more extreme version, some of the things that we threaten - that Donald Trump threatens to do here. Whether he says something about that in Poland will make a huge difference to people who care about liberal democracy.

And as odious and the Chinese and Russian regimes are in many ways, the United States needs them, especially China, if there's going to be a deal on North Korea. And what China is saying on North Korea, which is that there has to be - that there has to be pressure, but also an accommodation on some of these issues with the North Koreans, is actually the only potential way to have meaningful negotiations. A path of pure pressure alone led by the United States will only leave the United States isolated and it will make the North Korean nuclear problem worse.

BERMAN: Hey, congresswoman, this just shows how complicated this trip is to the G-20.

HARMAN: It dos. It -

BERMAN: You know, President Trump has got to juggle Xi Jinping over here, Vladimir Putin over here, Angela Merkel over here. When he's meeting with President Putin, though, because you brought this up, what are the deliverables that you think that President Trump can get out of this meeting and what does Vladimir Putin want out of it?

HARMAN: Well, that's - it's good that you raised that. And to Peter, by the way, I don't - I wasn't suggesting cutting these people off. I was suggesting being tough in terms of presentation.

But there have to be deliverables. I hope that President Trump is not tweeting on the airplane and is preparing carefully for this meeting. What do we want out of it? We want obviously to show the world that we can stand up to aggression. And in Europe, after all, the Russians were the aggressors in Ukraine. It is not OK to give them Crimea. And it's certainly not OK to have them continue to destabilize the Danbas (ph), the east part of Ukraine. So, no, on that. What's our deliverable? That Putin will move back, certainly on the Ukraine destabilization. Crimea may be a harder ask. But we should not wave sanctions. We should not show weakness. What do we want him to do that? What would he want us to do? I think he wants respect. So building a relationship with President Trump would be useful. It's important to note that Prime Minister Xi met with him before Trump did. So China may be higher on his priority list than the U.S. is. Check that box, global politics, tri-polar world or maybe bipolar with us not in the two. But it's a - it's a tense time for Trump and he has to get this right. In the Middle East, I'm not sure whether there's a workout in Syria.

BERMAN: Right. Watch the body language between the two leaders. Watch if President Trump manages to bring up the Russian election meddling. I think that's actually an easy thing for him to bring up and score some political points.

HARMAN: Yes, that's a good point.

BERMAN: We will wait and see.

Jane Harman, David Drucker, Peter Beinart, great discussion. Thank you one and all.

HARMAN: Thank you.

DRUCKER: Thank you.

BERMAN: Coming up, the New York Police Department mourning the loss of one of their own. This is an awful story. An officer and the parent of three ambushed and killed in what is being called an unprovoked attack. You are going to hear a dispatch call, which I have to say broke my heart from her partner. That's coming up next.

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