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WORLD RIGHT NOW WITH HALA GORANI
Protesters, Police Clash At G20 Summit In Germany; Anti- Globalization Protests Against G20 Summit; Trump and Merkel Meet Ahead of G-20 Summit. Aired 3-4p ET
Aired July 6, 2017 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: -- at the other end of that sort of police perimeter that's been built up as the buffer
zone. There have been bottles flying. This is a water canon truck you see right here --
HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Welcome, everybody. This is continuing coverage of the G20 and protest in Hamburg this evening. It is
9 p.m. Central European Time.
And there is anger on the streets of the German city just hours after the U.S. president touched down in Hamburg for the G20 Summit. Take a look at
these live images coming to us from the streets of the German city where this G20 meeting is taking place.
President Trump and Angela Merkel, the chancellor of Germany met for about an hour this evening. Let's get straight to the ground before we analyze
the geopolitics of all of this as well as President Trump's visit to Poland as well this morning.
Our senior international correspondent, Atika Shubert, is live there. She is on the phone. Now we have live images there on our screens for our
viewers showing the demonstration and the protesters. It seems to have quieted down some. I haven't seen teargas, for instance, in the last few
ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): No. I mean, this protest, this sort of been allowed to continue and it's got a
much more festive atmosphere now. You can hear the music in the background.
What police did was they basically cleared what they thought were the violent elements in the crowd. So they went in. They extracted them.
Dispersed the crowd and rarely then demonstration being formed and they march back on.
So that's where that now, but I have to say there is still a very, very heavy police presence. We can still see those substance of riots with
(inaudible) as well as the water canon.
So I think basically when it's going to be like this for a while and folks have to try and move along their march, but police being very wary and
trying to make sure that -- what they call black spot element get involved in the crowd here, Hala.
And how far is this all to the actual meeting?
SHUBERT: Well, we are about three kilometers to the (inaudible) at a hall where this summit takes place. So it is relatively far, but what police
are concerned about is that they are going to be able to somehow breakthrough their line or triangle around them.
And in fact, right now I'm seeing police more into the crowd again trying to extract anybody that they think is the troublemaker in the crowd. I've
already seen one man being arrested in front me and it was a really interesting reaction.
He was arrested by police. The crowded chanted back, "what's your name, what's your name." And a volunteer lawyer swoop in, took the guy's details
really quickly before the police got him out. So it's an incredible operation not just by police, but by protesters as well.
GORANI: And why are they asking for their name?
SHUBERT: The reason they are asking for their name, they are asking for the man who was arrested his name. They know who he was and make sure he
doesn't sort of get arrested and they never hear from him again.
And that's why when they chanted, "what's your name, what's your name," the lawyer came rushing in to get his details, you know, who he was, his
identity and everything else that might be here to help the (inaudible).
GORANI: And who are the protesters by and large?
SHUBERT: You know, it's a big mix match of different groups on the far left. I mean, we have groups down here are protesting against
globalization, what they see as the corporate hydration of globalization.
We also see people here specifically out campaigning against Vladimir Putin or against Donald Trump. We see others out here campaigning for -- you
know, more action on climate change.
So there is a real mix match of different groups, but overall what you get is just far-left anger against the system as it exists now and specifically
targeting leaders like President Trump, Vladimir Putin, and of course, and also Turkish President Racip Erdogan.
So you know, there is no one coherent message coming out of this other than to reject the G20.
GORANI: Yes, just anger on the streets. The other thing is they are calling for more protests over the coming days as well, right?
SHUBERT: Absolutely. I mean, 12,000 people are out at the moment, but the police expect over hundred thousand over the course of the next two or
And in fact, the protests are expected to peak on Saturday. That's when you'll get the biggest demonstrations. But their biggest security concern
is actually this protest right now and tomorrow.
We know that demonstrators are going to go out of their way to try and block delegations from actually reaching the summit.
GORANI: All right, Atika Shubert, we'll get back to you shortly.
Atika, reporting on the ground there in Hamburg on these protests. Atika, they are saying about 12,000 people have gathered to protest all sorts of
things, globalization, capitalism, the G20, Donald Trump, you name it.
It is a diverse crowd there. We saw some water cannon being used as well as teargas, but it appears as though it's become more festive and Fareed
Zakaria, the host of "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS" joins us now live from New York.
So Fareed, obviously Angela Merkel does not want this to get out of hand.
[00:00:00]FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN HOST, "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS": No, she doesn't. On the other hand, it is democracy in action. It's not so unusual for
there to be protests. European countries have had much bigger protests in the past over various issues.
Think of the Iraq war so I don't -- I would hope that nobody is getting too rattle on about these things. This is, you know, was one of the glories of
democracy. People get to protest.
GORANI: Yes, and certainly it looks like the type of G20 protests we've seen in the past, but it was a very different reception for the president,
Fareed, in Poland today.
ZAKARIA: Well, Poland has historically as you know well, Hala, been one of the most pro-American countries in the world even during the Iraq war.
Polish support for America remained very strong and it's more -- it transcends Donald Trump or George Bush or Barack Obama.
Poland believes it is existentially threatened by Russia. It has believed this for a long time. It even harbors some suspicions about other European
countries. It's, you know -- it's had a rough history and in that context America has always been its knight in shining armor.
It's savior, you know, the cavalry that comes to the rescue. It hopes would come to the rescue and so it invests a lot of hope and faith in the
And I think what Donald Trump got was a reception as president of the United States, not so much as Donald. I know there is currently a kind of
right-wing populist government in power in Poland.
And I see them as soon as soulmates or confederates of a kind, and that might've been some part of it, but overwhelmingly, I think this was a
Polish reception for the president of the United States.
GORANI: And back to Hamburg where Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, met with Donald Trump for about an hour, we understand, from one of Angela
They certainly talked about the important foreign-policy issues of the day, Ukraine among them. Now after that served awkward oval office moment a few
weeks ago between Angela Merkel and Donald Trump.
And then there was the summit in Brussels as well. This is a very important meeting probably the most important for Donald Trump so far. Of
course, we have Putin tomorrow, but so far. What should we look out for?
ZAKARIA: Well, I can't imagine it will go very well. These are two very different people both in personality. I mean, think about this, you know,
physicist turned politician, the daughter of a minister born in the history of Europe, East Germany, understanding that so well.
And a celebrity real estate developer turned president who really is always had a certain want of disdain for European countries and NATO has always
criticize them for being freeloaders.
In addition very sharp disagreements over Germany's contributions to NATO, trade policy, climate change. Angela Merkel has been explicit about these
differences, which is very rare.
So you know, I think it's going to be working pragmatic meeting where they will try to find some areas of commonality, but is very different I think
from the meetings the German Chancellor has had with the American president really for as long as I can remember.
This is the sharpest disagreement that the United States has had with a major European country in decades.
GORANI: And of course, you'll remember, Fareed, in May when Angela Merkel at a campaign event said Europe can no longer rely on traditional allies
basically after the election of Donald Trump and Brezit, and interestingly on this day, a big trade deal was announced with Japan, between the E.U.
and Japan. These two big economic blocks there while no one is looking just basically find a big important trade pact.
ZAKARIA: Yes. I wrote a book a few years ago called the post-American world in which I said, you know, a lot of countries are taking matters into
their own hands as the United States understandably becomes, you know, a small part of a larger growing world.
But this is an acceleration for this kind. I frankly never would have predicted because you're exactly right, what the Japanese did was to decide
that since the United States had abandoned free trade and abandoned the Transpacific Partnership.
It was going to forge ahead with Europe and this is a deal with 30 percent of the world economy. It is the kind of deal that since 1945, the United
States was always spearheading, always setting the agenda for.
And again this is one of those historical turning points, which is the first major expansion of global trade that I can think off in which the
United States is not only not present but appears to be actively hostile.
And this is again something that Chancellor Merkel alluded to just a couple of days ago when she made a speech and said the United States seems to have
decided that in globalization there are winners and losers.
[15:10:03]We believe globalization is a win-win proposition rising trade and living standards for everyone. Again, one more of these very stark
contrast between Angela Merkel and Donald Trump.
GORANI: And lastly, as we continue to watch these live images from Hamburg, the protest in Hamburg. We have that important meeting with the
first face-to-face between Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin.
It's not expected that Donald Trump will bring up any significant way, if at all, Russian interference in the U.S. electoral process last year, but
what should we look out for there?
ZAKARIA: Again, this is the very different people, even though there is this, you know, mythical bromance between the two. Putin is a small man in
many senses, medium height, medium built. Trump is large. Putin is cold. Trump is hot.
Putin is very calculating. Trump is very, very much somebody who freelances and improvises. Putin will have an agenda. His agenda will be
to try to weaken the sanctions, weaken western resolve, tradeoff some of that in return for greater cooperation with Syria.
Everything I know about Putin is that he is very calculating. He has a set agenda. He will have thought this through and gamed it out. Trump has no
agenda as far as we know. He intends to improvise, which strikes me as dangerous in this kind of meeting.
He has also boxed himself -- he's put himself in a box because he can't be too nice to Putin. It will raise suspicions that he is in some sense
Putin's puppet. He can't be too tough on him because, you know, he has never wanted to be tough on the Russians, and that also would be
So he has done that for now at least since his inauguration to have no Russia policy. We'll see if this meeting changes that.
GORANI: Fareed Zakaria, host of "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS", appreciate it. Thanks very much.
Our Fred Pleitgen was at the scene of the protest earlier. This is, as we continue to watch these live images, what he reported on when it got quite
heated a little bit earlier in the evening. Take a look.
PLEITGEN: Things are kicking off here. You can see the water canon trucks are in use back there. We think that some smoke bombs and some fireworks
were setup. We are going to try and get a little bit closer, but we have to try to stay safe as well because there a police line right around here.
This is really the first time that the violence has sort of kicked off here and what's happened was that the protest march was lining up. The cops
since stopped them actually where we are right now and told people to take face masks off because you are not allowed to wear masks here.
And then at some point, it seems as though, you know, one thing led to another and then the first smoke bombs were thrown out. We have this with
the water canon trucks have been in used.
The cops are obviously moving around and creating a larger perimeter as well. So we are going to try and get a little closer for you guys.
JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Fred, give us a sense of who is out there protesting, if you can still hear me, you said, thousands and thousands of
people. Please take care of yourself, Fred, but who is out there?
PLEITGEN: Yes. Look, a lot of them are sort of people who are left wing. It's a very international crowd. There are some centrist people as well
and I would say most of them. The vast majority of folks here are peaceful and the demonstration up until now was peaceful as well.
It's a pretty good atmosphere over the past couple of hours. You know, there's obviously a small part of the people who were looking for a fight.
You did see there were some sort of black (inaudible) left wing people among the crowd as well.
But by and large, it was peaceful. People at the same time they are obviously have this, you know, sort of anti-capitalist agenda. Many of
them highly critical of President Trump, especially, there was quite a scene when President Trump's helicopter went over the demonstration.
And as I say, you know, so far the demonstration has been fairly peaceful, but now it seems as though things are getting a little bit out of hand.
GORANI: Fred Pleitgen, just a little bit earlier. There was mention there, teargas used, a water cannon as well. A crowd of about 12,000
protesting everything from globalization to capitalism to Donald Trump's presence in Hamburg.
Well, let's get back to the ground in Hamburg. Our senior international correspondent, Atika Shubert is live there. What are you seeing around you
SHUBERT (via telephone): We've actually just moved away from the protesters (inaudible) stuck at an intersection, unable to move forward.
And we've had reports of some cars burning so we have moved from the location to find out a little bit more.
I can't confirmed that at this point, but of course, this is one of the worries for the police here that protest wouldn't be contained to one area.
That you could see them leaking into other parts of the city.
So -- especially as evening comes along, I think this is what police are very much on the alert for. So that is what happening at the moment, but
as far as I know that march is still continuing and is expected to continue for at least a little while longer.
[15:15:09]GORANI: And the big question is obviously among the protesters, you have some troublemakers. People who just want to create a situation,
but just a few minutes ago, you are reporting that it's calmed down and become a march again and slightly more festive. Is still the case?
SHUBERT: Yes, you know, they had the music out. It's actually quite impressive operation by protesters. They a van that is, of course, pumping
out music on big speakers.
But at the same time, they also have a legal help line, a help van, which has its number on it for anybody who gets arrested, anybody who gets in
trouble and they've got a swath of volunteer lawyers that come in and help anybody.
As I saw one of them come just as somebody was arrested by police, taking details down, and he'll probably end up meeting him back down at where they
have sort of a makeshift detention centers for those that are arrested here.
So it's still in progress and even now on a main street far away from the protests, (inaudible) with police vans and people peeking over the street.
So I think to be frank, this is probably the most touching go part of the evening when if the protest threatens to go out onto other parts of the
And that's when police really start to be worried that they might see spread out (inaudible).
GORANI: All right, we'll see especially, of course, as it becomes dark, it will be more difficult for authorities to control the crowd. Atika
Shubert, thanks very much. She is in Hamburg. We have a team of reporters there covering these demonstrations.
Of course, this is the end of the day for the U.S. president, Angela Merkel, and the other leaders. For Donald Trump, it started in Poland.
I'm joined by Radoslaw Sikorski is the former Polish foreign minister in France, happens to be in France right now.
So as we continue to air these images of the protest in Hamburg, Mr. Sikorski, you saw this very positive reception that Donald Trump got in
Poland, and it is not surprising in the sense that American presidents are very popular usually in Poland.
What did you make of what he said about the fact that this is now a question of civilizational survival for the west?
RADOSLAW SIKORSKI, FORMER POLISH FOREIGN MINISTER: It was an intriguing speech. I wouldn't know that your president was so religious and so
admiring of the policies of John Paul II, and of that of the Polish identity.
And yes, he sketched out a hunting (inaudible) of vision with traces of (inaudible) from the will of our civilization against its enemies, and you
could understand it as an invitation to Poland to become a junior (inaudible) in that momentous struggle.
GORANI: But it -- so the current Polish president, President Duda, promised that he would organize a great welcome for President Trump, he did
it. We understand that some of the demonstrators are the people who attended this speech also had buses sent for them. That they really,
really put on a big production. What did you make of that?
SIKORSKI: Well, that raises associations with the communist period when also people were brought in by the ruling party to a chair foreign leaders
that was less fortunate perhaps. So it was a speech which tickled the national pride.
And finally, the president of the United States reaffirmed the Article V, that's important because it's a message to President Putin that, look, this
is NATO territory, keep out.
There were also traces of the kind of transactional politics that President Trump is famous for, you know, buy our gas, buy our weapons. We are going
to do that anyway.
Difficult, though, (inaudible) because American gas should be competitive, American weapons are being bought all over the world. So he pressed many
of the right button in Poland.
And if he understood in Poland why NATO is important, why the Article V of the Washington treaty is important, and it was a part of his European
education also be good.
And may I also say that Melania Trump made a spectacular presence to (inaudible) wrong once and to some people's mind perhaps she could do the
job just as well.
GORANI: OK. It's an interesting perspective. What do you think -- what message do you think he sent to Russia because on the one hand he said
Russia should stop being a destabilizing force.
[15:20:08]On the other, though, when he was asked yes or no, do you believe Russia interfered in the election last year? He said yes then no and then
Barack Obama knew, that we do not know for sure. So there was kind of a mixed message there in that response.
GORANI: What message do you think he wanted to send to Russia?
SIKORSKI: He was -- he said enough about Russia to reassure the polls, but not so much as to annoy Vladimir Putin. (Inaudible) was clearly in the
other struggle, the struggle with radical Islam.
And what he sees I think in that bright parts of his messaging as the inevitable clash of civilization, which -- and he was trying to take off
Poland on that route and on that journey.
And I'm sure he found some receptive ears because we have a government in Poland, which is also quite ideological and fundamentally opposed to Muslim
immigration just like President Trump.
GORANI: All right, Radoslaw Sikorski, the former Polish foreign minister, thanks so much for joining us on this big day for the U.S. president. His
second trip abroad, and in less than 24 hours, his first face-to-face meeting with Vladimir Putin.
Ivan Watson joins me now live from Moscow. What would President Putin like to get out of this meeting tomorrow, Ivan?
IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Ideally the Russians would love to see sanctions lifted from Russia that have been in place
since 2014, since the occupation and seizure of Crimea.
And sanctions that were strengthened in part by the U.S. government just a couple of weeks ago to the Russians dismay, they would love to get free
reign in Ukraine and in Syria as well.
Those are some of the areas that they would like to have, but it is clear that the Kremlin is kind of lowering expectations. In fact, Vladimir Putin
spokesman, Dimitri Peskov. He said that regrettably the kremlin does not know what Washington wants from this meeting.
And that is notable because this will be the fourth U.S. president that Vladimir Putin will have met face-to-face on Friday with President Trump in
his long career as the head of state here in Russia.
Rex Tillerson, the U.S. secretary of state, has indicated that Syria might be an area where Russia and the U.S. could cooperate since the kremlin has
described the bilateral relations between the two governments at an effectively zero right now.
Both governments have troops on the ground in Syria fighting. They have warplanes in the skies. They've had sharp disagreements there, but they
also at least ostensibly have the same goal, which is to fight Islamist extremists on the ground.
So that maybe one area where they could make some progress in this first meeting between these two leaders -- Hala.
GORANI: Are they expecting the Russian interference according to intelligence agencies at least into the U.S. electoral process last year to
be brought up by President Trump?
WATSON: Well, that might be one area actually where the kremlin and the U.S. president might see eye to eye because the kremlin has consistently
denied the accusations coming from the U.S. intelligence chiefs and from congressional leaders that there was Russian meddling in the 2016 election.
And as we heard from President Trump in Warsaw, he is still not entirely sold that the Russians were the chief players and that as his own
intelligence agencies have alleged.
So that was perhaps of the messages that President Trump sent from Warsaw today, that is perhaps the one message that the Russians would have liked
to hear. They probably would have been dismayed to hear him say accused Russia of, quote, "destabilizing activities" in Ukraine and elsewhere, and
of also supporting hostile regimes like Syria and Iran.
Those are not the types of things that the kremlin wants to hear from the U.S. commander-in-chief.
GORANI: All right, well, the analyzing everything from what's discuss to the body language and everything in between. Thanks very much, Ivan
Watson, live for us in Moscow.
You are seeing live images coming to us from Hamburg, a protest that turned a bit violent a while ago, 12,000 people or so it seems to have all calmed
down. According to our report on the ground, it has gone even a little festive in the period between the use of water cannon and what you see on
your screens now.
We'll be right back after a quick break on CNN with more from Hamburg, Germany.
GORANI: Live images of protest in Hamburg, Germany. They turned violent just over an hour ago, but now things have calmed down. You have all sorts
of demonstrators here and protesters.
Everything from my people protesting against capitalism and globalization or even a visit of the U.S. President Donald Trump. Atika Shubert, our
senior international correspondent is live on the ground. What's going on around you now, Atika?
SHUBERT: Well, they dispersed the protesters and what's happened is about a thousand of them basically broke off and have taken over this
intersection here, which is about a kilometer away from where the main protest is and they have now installed a truck with a sound system and they
are trying to make this a rave essentially.
What we earlier saw was riot police initially confronted people here with two water cannons, but I think they've realized that this is a peaceful
crowd so they've sort of backed off slowly.
They are still parked here but a distance away trying not to be confrontational. So now what we have is multiple scenes of different
protests happening and Hamburg police are basically trying to figure out how to best the police the situation here.
But this is a situation that is likely to go on for a few hours into the night. So still very much very fluid as what's happening here, Hala.
GORANI: Well, it's 9:30 almost and it's still daylight, but obviously when it becomes dark, it will be more challenging for the police?
SHUBERT: Absolutely. And one of the biggest problems is how to deal with those protesters who are trying to disrupt the G20 specifically whether or
not they try and interfere with the arrival of delegations, for example.
That is the main concern for police. Things like this, which are basically a big party are less of the problem they'll do, but a crown control here.
But what they are really looking for are those black bloc protesters that are using violent tactics to try and disrupt the G20.
GORANI: All right, Atika, thanks very much. Atika Shubert is in Hamburg.
Quick break. When we come back, we'll discuss Donald Trump's meeting with Angela Merkel. Stay with us. You're watching CNN.
[15:31:25] GORANI: Well, let's get you back to Hamburg, Germany. Anti- globalization protestors are demonstrating ahead of the G-20 Summit. We saw some violent scenes.
Senior International Correspondent Atika Shubert is live there with the very latest. It appears things have quieted down somewhat, Atika. What
are you seeing where you are?
SHUBERT: You know, what's happened is demonstrators have been dispersed from the area where they were at earlier. There's still a clot of
demonstrators there trying to march forward, but a lot of them have moved here.
We've got about a thousand people, and they've sort of taken over this intersection. They brought in a truck. I don't know if you can see it
there, but it's got a speaker system on it, and they've sort of made this into kind of a rave or a party.
And so far, police are OK with that. They do have two water cannons, however, parked behind us, as well as a number of riot of police ready to
come in if needed. But at the moment, this doesn't seem to be tense or violent in any way. And so far as that -- as long as that's the case, I
don't think police will move in.
However, what we are seeing is that more people are joining this protest from the previous one. And as the crowd swells, that will become a concern
for police, Hala.
GORANI: Atika Shubert, thanks very much. We'll get back to you soon.
Let's bring in Matt Qvortrup. He's the author of the book, "Angela Merkel: Europe's Most Influential Leader." Thanks for being with us.
MATTHEW QVORTRUP, AUTHOR, "ANGELA MERKEL: EUROPE'S MOST INFLUENTIAL LEADER": My pleasure.
GORANI: So anyone entering into a negotiation or getting ready for a bilateral with Angela Merkel, what should they know about her?
QVORTRUP: Well, they should know a number of things. There's a lot of just more factual things. She's a woman with a doctorate in quantum
physics, who was a squatter at some time Berlin, likes to tell jokes.
But if they want to know sort of things about her negotiating style, then she's a woman who would barrage them with facts. She would also try to
sort of sweet talk them, to charm them a bit, and get them to think that what she's actually proposing is what they had wanted all along. She's --
GORANI: And so she's a good negotiator?
QVORTRUP: Well, she's been very successful in negotiating with the likes of Vladimir Putin, for example, in the past. She's been --
GORANI: Although they have a tense relationship.
QVORTRUP: They have a tense relationship. She speaks very good Russian. She occasionally -- she won the gold medal in East Germany in 1970 as best
Russian speaker. And she'll sometimes correct his grammar, which he doesn't find too pleasing, but --
GORANI: And he speaks German, presumably?
QVORTRUP: He speaks very good --
GORANI: He was a KGB spy.
QVORTRUP: KGB, in Dresden, yes, so there is a bit of competition going on.
GORANI: So what about her and Donald Trump? Because he, after all, wrote a book called "The Art of the Deal." He says he's a great negotiator.
He's a great businessman. He can get things done.
You're saying she's a good negotiator. That she has a style that would allow the other person, her interlocutor, to believe this is what they've
wanted all along. I wonder how those two would mesh because you remember that Oval Office scene when she said, should we shake hands, and he kind of
QVORTRUP: Yes. I think the important thing about him in such negotiations is also what is on the agenda. She sets the agenda. She's got the home
advantage. And the home advantage consist in having issues on the agenda such as climate change and international trade and women's rights, which
are not exactly sort of like the best issues for Donald Trump.
He will, also, at the same time, be preoccupied with North Korea. She has established a number of alliances, especially with the Chinese, so she will
have a -- she will be in pole position, to use Formula One terms.
GORANI: Does she see herself as basically now, I mean, the most influential politician in the world?
QVORTRUP: I think --
GORANI: Because she's --
QVORTRUP: In some way --
GORANI: I mean, the E.U. just signed a big trade deal with Japan. There seems to be an effort to look at a post-U.S. world order where, Angela
Merkel, does she see herself as heading that effort to realign countries strategically and geopolitically in favor of the E.U.? That she is the
most important leader of it?
[15:35:08] QVORTRUP: There is one single picture in her office in Berlin. That is a picture of Catherine the Great, who is a woman who was born in
Germany who became the czarina of Russia. So Angela Merkel, once she jokes about, is somebody who sees herself perhaps not as a czarina of Germany but
as a leader of the free world.
GORANI: It's interesting. That's the only picture in her office?
QVORTRUP: It is.
GORANI: She doesn't have a picture of her husband or extended family?
QVORTRUP: No, no. She tries to hide him away. He's called Joachim Sauer. He's a quantum chemist and a very successful man, but she is very much
somebody who has private life on one side and then she has the public life, as arguably the most influential female leader perhaps ever.
GORANI: So you're not surprised that she'd been running again, that she wants to remain Chancellor of Germany?
QVORTRUP: No, not really. And her approval ratings at the moment, I think, is 68, which is very close to Donald Trump's disapproval rating. I
think, also, 66 percent of Americans approve of her, whereas only 38 percent of the Americans approve of Donald Trump. So even if she were to
run in America, conceivably she'd be winning.
GORANI: Yes, there were those numbers. I found very interesting something that Angela Merkel did with the vote to approve gay marriage, that this was
a topic that could have been a big hot potato topic for the opposition. She managed to get it out of the way politically while still voting against
it, knowing it would pass. I mean, this is just masterful political calculation here on her part, isn't it?
QVORTRUP: I think it is, but then again, she's also a Machiavellian person. I don't want to sugar coat her and say this is the solution to all
man and woman --
GORANI: And being a masterful politician doesn't necessarily mean you're all sweet and --
QVORTRUP: No. No, no, no.
GORANI: -- and innocent.
QVORTRUP: And --
GORANI: And she's calculating well so far.
GORANI: It's been working out for her.
QVORTRUP: And she's sometimes known as Merkelavelli in Germany because she's alike.
QVORTRUP: And she's often been underestimated. She's had to deal with, when she was growing up as a politician, a number of what used to be called
the Catholic choirboys, men from the south of Germany.
Here comes an eastern Protestant woman who has outsmarted them, but often in that way where she's very sort of untypical for a politician. She's
sort of -- she chats a bit. She sounds sort of very sort of -- you know, sort of motherly sort of style although she doesn't have children herself.
GORANI: Interesting. Matthew Qvortrup, the author of "Angela Merkel: Europe's Most Influential Leader." Thanks very much for joining us. We
GORANI: We are continuing to keep an eye there on those protests in Hamburg. Our reporter, Atika Shubert, on the ground, was saying that night
is falling soon, and obviously, that will be more of a challenge for authorities on the ground and police.
These protests had, earlier, erupted into kind of a violent and angry scene. We saw water cannon used. Tear gas as well. The anti-capitalist
protest was called "Welcome to Hell."
All these comes a few hours after Donald Trump and Angela Merkel held a closed-door meeting. It is not the first time. The two have met one-to-
one, as we were discussing with Matthew, but the optics in Hamburg were different. It was Angela Merkel's home turf after all.
We saw a handshake. We saw smiles. We saw some gestures. It wasn't the same as the Oval Office in March. There was no handshake there, famously,
and a lot -- and fewer smiled.
Now, there are many contentious issues between the two. Earlier, Chancellor Merkel's deputy warned that the U.S. may start a trade war with
Europe. Let's go live to Berlin and speak to Julian Reichelt, the editor- in-chief of "Bild Digital."
What are you hearing? What are your reporters hearing from those covering Angela Merkel in Hamburg today about what happened behind closed-doors at
that Trump/Merkel bilateral?
JULIAN REICHELT, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, BILD DIGITAL: Well, first of all, they have to make up for a lot of broken glass from their last meeting at the
White House. So what our reporters tell us, it's going quite well so far.
They kind of made a joke out of the now famous handshake situation when, last time at the White House, President Trump kind of ignored Chancellor
Merkel asking if he wants to shake her hand. So if you look at the picture from today, you know, shaking hands, they kind of made a funny situation
out of it to ease over problems that may have been there in the past.
And the truth is, President Trump kind of made it easy for Angela Merkel by admitting and addressing all the problems that now Germany, in our election
here, has with the Russian interference. He made very clear in his Warsaw speech that he sees that as a problem, that Russia meddled in the U.S.
elections, and kind of gave support for a topic that is very important for Angela Merkel in these days. So right now, our reporters tell us what has
happened so far was friendlier than expected.
GORANI: All right. Friendlier than expected. By the way, we are showing our viewers right now live images of big police formations advancing down
the protest group, of the anti-globalization and the anti-G-20 demonstrators in Hamburg right now.
[15:40:10] I mean, obviously, the Chancellor expected this. She wouldn't want this to get way out of hand, clearly.
REICHELT: Obviously. And you can tell that from the massive police force that we are seeing in Hamburg, not only today but over the past days. The
way they have prepared for this pretty much -- it's an all-out approach. The police approaches to disperse even smallest groups.
Obviously, that didn't work that well in the past hour or so, but there's one important thing here. This kind of protest have a huge position in
cities like Hamburg and Berlin. They used to happen annually on May 1st, so the rioters there have a lot of experience maneuvering around the
So on a scale of what we are used to seeing here in Germany when it comes to this kind of anti-capitalism, anti-globalization, anti-summit riots,
this looks bad because there are archives burning. But, actually, so far, it seems to be not as bad as expected.
GORANI: Right. And you know, I tend to agree with you there. We've covered some of these protests. They'd been a lot rowdier in the past.
There was a brief moment there where the water cannon were used by authorities where we thought, OK, this may be sort of going off the rails.
But it seems to be returning now to just a march. Our reporter is saying it was quite jovial and festive, in fact, on the streets. We'll see what
happens when it gets dark.
But let's look forward to Friday -- or to -- yes, Friday! I'm losing tract of dates. And Donald Trump and President Putin will meet. This is really
going to be the big, big focus of this summit.
REICHELT: Yes. And it's of special importance because, as your previous guest has mentioned, they have Angela Merkel around, who has kind of a
special relationship --although that should not be overestimated -- with Vladimir Putin, in terms that she literally understands him because she
speaks the language and she has lived under the regime.
She has lived in the country where he was a KGB agent, so she understands the mentality and can work not only as a translator when it comes to
language but also when it comes to mentality.
And if we look at, you know, what they will be talking about tomorrow, for example, Syria, a possible no fly zone, a ceasefire in Syria, obviously,
Merkel has some experience with these Russian promises in the past. And the truth is that they have never really worked out, that they have never
So I think she can be a kind of a warning sign for Donald Trump how to interpret Russian initiatives like a no-fly zone or a ceasefire that, in
many cases in the past -- and that's not only true for Syria but also for Ukraine where Merkel has negotiated a ceasefire -- only meant preparation
for the next sometimes bloody offensive.
So I think the big chance that we see here tomorrow is that Donald Trump has someone, who obviously is still one of the most important U.S. allies,
who can work through some things and interpret the mentality, the way Putin negotiates, the way he behaves, and the way he delivers or usually not
delivers on his promises.
GORANI: All right. Thanks very much, Julian Reichelt. As always, a pleasure having you on.
REICHELT: Thank you.
GORANI: We'll be right with more from Hamburg after this.
[15:45:34] GORANI: Let's get back to Hamburg, Germany, where anti- globalization protestors are on the streets ahead of the G-20 Summit. Fred Pleitgen is there in Hamburg with the very latest. What are you seeing,
PLEITGEN: Hi, Hala. Well, just a couple of minutes ago, it seems as though the protest march would seem to have been all but broken up, seems
to moving again. As you can see, the sort of first wave of police officers just coming through here right.
The situation has really calmed down a little bit. They've actually moved some of those water cannon trucks out of the way. We're actually going in
kind of the other direction.
You can see those blue lights flashing back there. Those are the two water cannon trucks that were, before, at the head of the sort of protest march.
But behind me, if you come back here, you can see sort of in the distance that there are some of these folks who had -- as you said, this anti-
globalization, anti-G-20 march that is actually set to go around the entire perimeter of the venue of where the G-20 is going to take place, which is,
of course, the Hamburg Convention Center, and which really has only gotten a couple of hundred yards.
I would say, at this point, they've gone maybe 300 or 400 yards from where they originally started marching. So it really hasn't gotten very far
because, of course, you had those melees going on. You had some of that sort to bickering and fighting that erupted there. Right now, things are
And it's slowly starting to get dark as well. It's shortly before 10:00 p.m. which is around the time that the sun actually sets. It's a light out
very, very long which is also one of the reasons it really feels more like it's the afternoon rather than the evening.
We're now seeing some more bottles being thrown actually. Things might be kicking off again. We'll continue to monitor that situation, but
certainly, it's a lot calmer than it was around 45 minutes ago, Hala.
GORANI: Yes. And also -- but the big challenge is going to be when it gets dark, I imagine, for the police there in Hamburg.
PLEITGEN: Yes. Yes, you're absolutely right, once it gets dark and once sort more of the regular folks go home and you have more of the sort of
hardcore folks who might remain.
In the past couple of days, we have had, especially in the hours after it became dark, there were, you know, little skirmishes that took place. So
certainly, right now, this being one of the main days the demonstration proceeds, if you're looking for a safe, you can maybe go in the direction
of where the police have really set up that perimeter cordon right now.
So they're sort of locking some of those folks coming down from there who want to join the protest march. The main one is sort of more here towards
the left. But you're absolutely right, once it gets dark, I think they'll be new challenges post to the police officers here who are sort of trying
to get this march to go through.
But it looks to me, if they really want to go through with this and the entire march, that this is going to take a very long time. And now, it
starts moving again.
Folks here start yelling at the police. We're going to get out of the way a little bit, Hala.
Hey, Paul (ph), move out of the way in case something gets thrown.
And now you can see it's moving again. But looking here, some of the police officers certainly --
GORANI: What are they saying? What are they saying?
PLEITGEN: -- they've been hit by -- yes, I mean, the folks here are chanting, "Go away, go away," to the police. And you can see some of them
GORANI: Keep it clean.
PLEITGEN: -- took quite a beating. This one cop out here is -- seems to be hit by something like a paint bomb or something, or like a bottle with
paint or something.
So, you know, there were some security skirmishes going on. Certainly, it calmed down considerably now. The police seemingly moving out.
And now you can see -- if you go back here, you can see that the demonstrators are actually starting to move in again, move forward again,
as it seems as though this march is now underway. And now, there's actually almost no police presence here.
It really seems as though the police has tried and take themselves out of the equation a little bit, and now the actual march is going on. Back
there is the sort of first vehicle of that march, which I think Atika was describing as almost being a rave at this point in time, Hala.
GORANI: And we're expecting more marches in the coming days as well.
PLEITGEN: Yes. Yes, we certainly are. And, you know, one of the things that we've heard is that they expect around 100,000 protestors in total
over the entire time that this summit is going to take place.
And I think the organizers here, they were expecting between sort of 8,000 to 10,000 for this one. I think it was probably a little more than that
that actually came because, you know, there's people really here from all over Europe.
We've seen some folks also from further abroad, you know, from places like Mexico, from Latin America. We've seen some people from the U.S. as well
who are taking part in this. And so much like the G-20, the anti-G-20 has really become a very global event as well.
[15:50:02] And there's a lot of folks who moved forward in here. As now, you can see the road, see the protest march coming towards us, moving once
again. We're going to wait and see, you know, if they're going to be able to march the entire way or if they get held up again, Hala.
GORANI: All right. We'll get back in touch with you. Fred Pleitgen in Hamburg.
CNN Digital Reporter Dan Merica joins me now live. He's also in Hamburg.
And once again, the U.S. President, but this time on foreign soil, ripped into CNN and other American news organizations. We heard that in Poland
today. Tell us more.
DAN MERICA, CNN POLITICAL PRODUCER: You know, I'd like to say this is something we are not very used to and it's a break from Donald Trump's
normal behavior, but it really isn't. I mean, I think it's fair to say that journalists in the United States, and with CNN in particular, have
grown used to this kind of treatment from the President of the United States and these kinds of comments.
What was remarkable about today is the way and the form he did it. He was asked directly during a press conference by a pretty friendly reporter
about CNN, and he took the bait certainly and went after our network, as well as NBC. But it's also important to remember who he was standing next
He was standing next to the Polish President who has been accused by opponents of restricting free press in Poland and limiting who can cover
certain news in parliament. So that was important to remember.
This is the President of the United States who typically goes abroad and assumes, you know, the priorities and feelings of the United States,
including the First Amendment. He certainly didn't do that in his answer to that question, standing next to the Polish President.
But now he's here in Hamburg, where I am, and if you look over my shoulders, you might see some smoke. Earlier, there was smoke building
from the streets. It seems like, as Fred said earlier, some of those protests have calmed down.
A lot of today's meeting is looking forward to tomorrow and the meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin. The White House is well aware that
this is a critically important meeting for President Donald Trump.
Everything will be scrutinized, how he shakes his hand. Are they chummy? Are they laughing? Does Trump kind of use his size to stand over Putin as
we saw Obama do a couple of years ago?
That's all going to be overanalyzed, and the White House is well aware of that and knows that that Putin meeting is going to define this weekend in
Hamburg, Germany, for President Trump.
GORANI: What's the strategy, the White House strategy, regarding this very important meeting with President Putin?
MERICA: Well, my colleague, Kevin Liptak, actually just sent in some reporting, some really interesting reporting. This is going to be a very
small meeting with just the two presidents and basically their foreign ministers or secretaries of state.
It's going to be translated by -- presumably, President Putin doesn't speak English very regularly in these sort of meetings, so it's going to be
translated. So that is going to certainly hamper kind of the free flowing discussion they can have.
The strategy going in, so far, has been to kind of keep details at a minimum. What we're going to see is very brief snippets that the pool will
be allowed -- the pool of reporters will be allowed to shoot video of. And that's where all that, you know, body language and chemistry will be
Afterwards, we'll start hearing leaks about what was discussed, I'm sure, as well as official readouts from the government. But right now, there are
plenty of White House officials who are talking on background about this, and they're saying that the President doesn't necessarily plan to address
election meddling. And that's surely -- if he doesn't address it, that's surely going to anger Democrats especially in the United States.
GORANI: All right. There was a bit of something for everyone in his statements regarding Russia and Poland.
GORANI: So we'll see what emerges from that meeting with Vladimir Putin. All eyes on, first, as you mentioned, the body language, and then what
emerges -- what lines emerge from the sit-down.
GORANI: Thanks very much. Dan Merica is live in Hamburg, Germany.
MERICA: Thank you.
GORANI: We'll be right back.
[15:55:28] GORANI: Well, in Hamburg, Germany, these are live images coming to us from the German city hosting the G-20 Summit of protestors, anti-
globalization protestors. There are those, as well, unhappy with the U.S. President, Donald Trump, who met this afternoon, German time, with Angela
Merkel, the German Chancellor, and who, of course, is gearing up and getting ready for his important meeting tomorrow with Vladimir Putin.
Fred Pleitgen was at the scene of the protest earlier. This is what he reported when it got a bit violent.
PLEITGEN: Things are kicking off here. You can see the water cannon trucks are in use back there. We think that some smoke bombs and some
fireworks were set up.
We're going to try and get a little bit closer, but we obviously have to try and stay safe as well because there is a police line right around here.
I'm going to take you to the front here. Excuse me guys.
This is really the first time that the violence had sort of kicked off here. And what happened was that the protest march was lining up. The
cops then stopped them, actually around where we are right now, and told people to take face masks off because you're not allowed to wear masks
And then at some point, it seems as though, you know, one thing led to another, and then the first smoke bombs were thrown. And now we have this
where the water cannon trucks have been in use.
The cops are obviously moving around and creating a larger perimeter as well, so we're going to try and get a little bit closer for you guys.
JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Fred, give us a sense of who is out there protesting. If you can still hear me, you said thousands and thousands of
people -- and please take care of yourself, Fred -- but who is out there?
PLEITGEN: Yes. Yes, yes. Look, a lot of them are sort of people who are left wing. It's a very international crowd. There's some centrist people
And I would say most of them, the vast majority of folks here, are peaceful. And the demonstration up until now was peaceful as well. It's
quite a good atmosphere over the past couple of hours.
You know, there's obviously a small, you know, part of people who are looking for a fight. You did see there were some sort of black lock, left
wing people among the crowd as well.
But, by and large, it was peaceful. People, at the same time, they all obviously have this, you know, sort of anti-capitalist agenda. Many of
them highly critical of President Trump --
GORANI: Fred Pleitgen. I'm Hala Gorani. Stay with CNN for more breaking news.