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WORLD RIGHT NOW WITH HALA GORANI
President Trump Defends Son Against "Witch Hunt"; U.S. Democratic Congressman Reacts To E-mail Release; Qatar Imports Thousands Of Cows To Deal With Embargo; U.S. President Joins Bastille Day Celeb in Paris; Brazil's Lula Sentenced to Prison; Iceberg Snaps Off Antarctica Shelf; Rufus the Hawk Becomes Fan Favorite at Wimbledon. Aired 3-4p ET
Aired July 12, 2017 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ISA SOARES, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello. I'm Isa Soares live from CNN London and this is the WORLD RIGHT NOW.
Now outside it is a picture of serenity, but inside we are hearing the White House is paralyzed by chaos over the latest Russia bombshell
involving the president's son himself.
Now Donald Trump today is defending Donald Trump Jr. as I'm quoting him here, "open, transparent, and innocent. His son released e-mails showing
he agreed to meet with someone described as a Russian government attorney last year about high-level information that could help his father's
Well, Trump Jr. is also speaking denying wrongdoing in an interview with Fox News. He says he just wanted to, quote, "Hear them out, play it out
and see what happens." But says he learned nothing. He didn't directly answered this key question, though.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you tell your father anything about this?
DONALD TRUMP JR., SON OF U.S. PRESIDENT: It was such a nothing. There was nothing to tell. Now I wouldn't even remember it until we start scouring
through the stuff. It was literally just a waste of 20 minutes, which was a shame.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: Well, President Trump's attorney was more direct when he spoke to CNN saying Mr. Trump was not aware of that meeting. A lot to cover this
hour. CNN's Dan Merica is live at the White House for us and our CNN international correspondent, Ivan Watson, is in Moscow. We'll get to
Moscow in just a moment.
But I want to start with you, Dan, because how much are these e-mails actually paralyzing the White House? We are hearing that it's in
paralysis, but is any work being done, any policy making?
DAN MERICA, CNN POLITICAL PRODUCER: You know, I think -- there is work being done. There a lot of people who work here and many of those people
really do not touch the West Wing or interact with the West Wing at all times.
So there is work being done, but I think it is the culture that this creates that is really important, and really grips the West Wing in
particular. Imagine you are a West Wing staffer and you see conversations you are having playing out in newspapers, on TV.
That is very destabilizing, really, you do not know whether your conversations you are going to have will end up or being leaked to
different people. So I think that is really the key to all of this.
That's the key to figuring out the situation. How it's impacting the White House? We have been told by outside Republicans, White House officials
that there is a destabilizing force that comes with these stories.
White House officials have said publically everything is fine. Nothing wrong is going on, but this is really impacting Donald Trump's ability to
get things done on Capitol Hill as well.
Put yourself in the position of a GOP senator, you are asked constantly about this Russia story not healthcare, not tax reform, and you may hold a
grudge about that, and that makes you less likely to want to work with the president on certain issues when they are causing you all these headaches.
SOARES: And whether, you know, the president likes it or not the reality is like you are mentioning there that Russia continues to be a large cloud
basically hanging over his administration. So how the White House (inaudible) this crisis? Are they handling it well or are we starting to
see fractures within President Trump inner circle?
MERICA: Well, we are about to hear an off-camera briefing from Sarah Huckabee Sanders, the president's spokesperson. She'll be at the podium
actually probably right about now as I'm talking to you.
It's an off-camera bringing and the audio is embargoed until after the briefing. So we'll get to hear another, you know, iteration of their
explanation of all of this.
There have been some fractures and certainly inside the West Wing, people are trying to figure out what different factions are warring with who and
that's been something that's been going on (inaudible) the Trump White House, but even more so now that these stories are coming out.
[15:05:01]It's worth noting that Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump, the president's daughter, Jared Kushner, his son-in-law are actually leaving
the White House currently to go to an event, a conference in Idaho.
And so they'll actually be gone for most of this week because of that conference. So you are seeing that, you know, it's a curious time for them
to be leaving the White House and so much is going on.
Really inside the White House did deals with them. Jared Kushner is at the center of the story. He actually won't be at the White House for much of
GORANI: Dan Merica, thank you very much, for us there.
Want to go over to Moscow for some reaction from the Russian government. And Ivan, what are you hearing from your side? Because 48 hours since
those e-mails come out, have the Russians answered clearly what their role was in this meeting?
IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I mean, they have denied any links whatsoever with the Russian lawyer at the heart of
this controversial meeting and they really reacted to questions about this controversy with scorn and disdain. Take a listen to what the Russian
foreign minister, Sergey Lavrov has to say earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SERGEY LAVROV, RUSSIAN FOREIGN MINISTER (through translator): I was astonished when I found out that a Russian attorney is accused or Donald
Trump Jr. is accused of talking to a Russian lawyer. This sounds crazy to me when you talk to a lawyer how can this be a problem?
How can this pose a threat to someone? I just found out from news on TV. I watch my TV last night and this morning I turned on my TV again and this
is all what was western networks are talking about. It is amazing how serious people can turn a fly into an elephant. Maybe there is even no-fly
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WATSON: There is -- kremlin spokesman, Dmitri Peskov, he pointed out the e-mails in question are between Donald Trump Jr. who is an American citizen
and this music promoter, Rob Goldstone, who is a British citizen. So he said where is there a Russian involved with that?
And he has a good point -- where these denials do not hold as much water is when they go to the family of the Emin Agalarov and that is who the music
promoter said that he was representing.
In his e-mails and indirectly in communication with CNN, he says that he was asked by his clients. This pop star, Emin Agalarov, to reach out to
Donald Trump Jr. to setup this meeting and specifically to help deliver information from the Russian government to help elect Donald Trump in the
The Agalarov family, their lawyer and the father himself, this billionaire developer, they've denied all of this. They've suggested that Rob
Goldstone was not representing them correctly.
That he was out of his depth that he is in the entertainment industry and he doesn't really know anything about politics. So there is some --
something is not adding up there between this music promoter and the people that he claimed to be representing.
SOARES: Yes, whether it is a fly or not, you know, like you said lots of questions being raised and that lot of this is that he said-she said as we
do not know. But we've also heard from the lawyer prior to hearing from Lavrov. Just take a listen. I want to play sound for our viewers. This
is what she has to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NATALIA VESELNITSKAYA, RUSSIAN ATTORNEY (through translator): When it was suggested that I meet with Donald Trump Jr., I met him in a private
situation. It was a private meeting not related at all to the fact that he was the son of the candidate.
And the whole story, which I had was misspelled out. It was the same for everyone including Donald Trump Jr., who having listened to my story did
not understand based on our conversation how he could help me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: So Ivan, let me get this right. Do we know why she wants to meet with him in the first place and more importantly why she wants to meet with
the son of the candidate or the person who is running for president of the United States? Was she aware of that?
WATSON: Well, she claims she wanted to talk to him about the Magnitsky Act, this piece of American legislation that punishes Russian entities that
are linked or implicated in human rights abuses or corruption with sanctions.
So that's something that she was very well known for, for lobbying against and she actually represented a company with the Russian owner that was
prosecuted under this act.
Where this denial of hers also does not add up is in the introductions that Rob Goldstone himself was making where he says I am acting on behalf of
Emin Agalarov. I want to introduce you to a Russian government lawyer and we want to bring information from the Russian government that will help
elect Donald Trump to the White House.
[15:10:00]And that is where again it does not add up all of these denials. She was also asked by my colleague, Matthew Chance, do you have any
compromising material to bring to that meeting with Trump Jr. whereas Russians call it (inaudible), and she said, no. Again, lots of denials,
but the paper trail suggest something otherwise.
SOARES: Very briefly, Ivan, what is this -- is this having any sort of impact in the relationship between President Putin and President Trump
because last week we saw them looking rather charming, didn't we, at G20?
WATSON: Yes, I think it is killing hopes after that historic face-to-face meeting that Washington and Moscow were going to to try to move forward and
work better on something.
But it's not the e-mail controversy that's killed it, just two days after that meeting, Trump himself backtracked on one of his three agreements with
Putin to develop some kind of cyber security working group and he backtracked on that about 48 hours later.
So I think it is setting in here in Moscow that they cannot count on working with Trump either because of his domestic political problems or
because he just cannot be trusted with anything he agrees with even 48 hours later to move forward to try to fix some of the problems in this
That said, there is a meeting scheduled next week in Washington between a Russian diplomat and the U.S. undersecretary of state to try to sort out
some of these problems, but the domestic political headwinds in Washington are just as reported in "Washington Post" hurricane five right now.
SOARES: Yes, absolutely. Ivan Watson for us there. Thanks very much, Ivan.
Now Democrats have been quick to criticize the meeting between Donald Trump Jr. and the Russian attorney with a flurry of fiery rhetoric coming out of
Capitol Hill. But earlier I spoke to Democratic Congressman Jim McGovern, and began by asking him what he thought when he saw those e-mails. Take a
REPRESENTATIVE JIM MCGOVERN (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Well, I thought it was disturbing and troubling, and a little bit creepy, quite frankly. I mean,
it was pretty explicit in those emails that the meeting that was being suggested was being endorsed by the Russian government.
And Donald Trump Jr. decided that he would take the meeting. What he should have done is call the FBI, but instead, I guess, in his eagerness to
get a dirt on Hillary Clinton decided to have the meeting and not just him but Jared Kushner and Paul Manafort.
I mean, the three top people in the Trump campaign, the only person higher than those three is Donald Trump. So it is all very troubling to me and I
know it's instrumental to a lot of my constituents as well.
SOARES: What are you constituents telling you?
MCGOVERN: Well, they cannot believe this. I mean, you know, I have one person call me and say you cannot make this stuff up. I mean, every time
you think that, you know, you know what happened then another shoe drops.
And it seems that this administration is incapable of telling the truth. They are constantly trying to deny things until they get caught. I mean,
Donald Trump said he was proud of his son for being transparent while the only reason why Donald Trump Jr. was transparent was because he got caught
in a lie.
The "New York Times" was great to publish those e-mails so again, it makes you wonder what else is out there.
SOARES: Let me ask you this, I was speaking to a Trump supporter yesterday, who basically said, look, when it comes to campaigning these
meetings happen even with foreign officials of foreign contact. Do you buy that?
MCGOVERN: I do not. I've never heard of such a thing. Look when Al Gore's campaign received unauthorized material about George Bush's debate
prep, what that -- what his campaign did was they called the FBI and this is worse.
This is a foreign government and now we have foreign government, a government who have been pretty hostile to the United States, basically
offering you dirt on your political opponent, and the idea that you would think that that was inappropriate?
I mean, a 15-year-old would know that that is inappropriate so I don't buy this idea that they did not know any better. This is politics as usual.
It's not politics as usual.
And if Donald Trump Jr. didn't know better, certainly Paul Manafort, who has been a veteran of many campaign should have known better.
SOARES: But there's nothing came out of this, Mr. McGovern, does that even make a difference. They said -- he says nothing came out of it at all.
Kellyanne Conway said the same thing. Does that matter at all?
MCGOVERN: Well, first of all, I don't trust this administration. I mean, they have lied so many times. I don't trust them to tell me the correct
time. Never mind whether or not anything came out of that meeting.
I do not know. I think none of us know and we don't know this is the only meeting that was arranged between somebody with connections to the Russian
government. So there is lots of questions out there.
That is why these investigations of both the House and Senate are important. That is why the work that Robert Mueller is doing is important.
I mean, we need these investigations to continue. We need to get to the bottom of this.
If there is criminal activity then whoever is involved needs to be held to account. But beyond that, we need to get to the truth so that we can
prevent Russia from meddling in our elections ever again.
[15:15:05]SOARES: You clearly quite support at what you've read from these e-mail exchanges, would you go as far as calling it treason as some are
MCGOVERN: Well, I don't know what to call it. You know, I think I'm bothered by the fact that I cannot get anybody in the Trump administration
to say flat out that this was inappropriate and this was wrong. This is the kind of behavior that shouldn't be tolerated.
And look, this attorney that they were dealing with, you know, is not only representing the Russian government, but she is an attorney who's been
dedicated to try and undercut human rights law in the United States for years.
She has been the point person to try to overturn the Magnitsky Act. So I think what makes this meeting even more inappropriate in addition to trying
to give them dirt on Hillary Clinton is the fact that she was trying to get their ear to get the president-elect, if he became president, to repeal the
I'm the author of the Magnitsky Act. Sergey Magnitsky was a lawyer and an auditor in Russia, exposed some of the biggest corruption in Russian
history and his reward was he was put in jail, tortured and murdered.
So this is the character of the lawyer who they said was so -- you know, no matter how you look at it, this was very damn meeting to have.
SOARES: And on those investigations, what would you like to see to come out of these e-mail exchange? Do you think that Donald Trump Jr. should
come on the rope?
MCGOVERN: I do. I mean, I absolutely do. He basically said and so did his father that nobody -- that he knows he'd had any contact with the
Russians during the campaign that is now obviously a lie.
He then said that the meeting he had with this Russian attorney was about adoptions. Based on the e-mails we know that is a lie. So look, I think
you know I do not trust these people to tell me the truth or to tell the American people the truth or the world the truth unless they are under
SOARES: Do you think this is a smoking gun? Do you think there is much more to come from this?
MCGOVERN: I don't think this is the end of it. I think there's more. I mean, you know -- I think there is probably more with regard to Donald
Trump Jr. We certainly know that there is more with regard to General Flynn and Paul Manafort.
I mean -- and Jared Kushner, and you know, the question used to be, you know, who in this administration met with Russian officials. Now the
question is, who in this administration didn't meet with Russian officials. It seems that everybody is some form or another has been in contact with
people connected to the Russian government.
SOARES: How is the state of the White House at this moment do you think, in paralysis?
MCGOVERN: I think the state of the White House is chaos, quite frankly. I mean, they are dealing -- you know, they are trying to put out fires with
regard to this latest Russia revelation and as a result, you know, they are not governing.
And you know, look, I'm a Democrat. I opposes the president on most of his policies. I think they are wrong for America. I think they are wrong for
the world, but even amongst my Republican colleagues, I mean, they are privately expressing great concern over what's happening.
I mean, this is -- you know, they are being told what I'm being told him and that is that there was nothing here. So even amongst Republican
members here in the House and Senate, I mean, there is a lot of frustration.
And so -- you know, I mean, it is what it is, but I think the only way forward is to get to the truth. These investigations need to be thorough.
They need to be credible and they need to lead wherever they lead.
And if there is criminality involve, anybody who committed a criminal act needs to be held to account and then we need to figure out how to make sure
this never happens again.
SOARES: That was Democratic Congressman Jim McGovern speaking to me earlier.
Well, the e-mail revelations raised many questions, some of them that you are hearing there including whether Trump Jr. may have done anything
illegal. Now President Trump's lawyers insist there's been no violation of any law.
Let's bring in CNN legal analyst, Joey Jackson. Joey, you know, in that discussion with Jim McGovern, he's basically saying, look, this smells bad,
but let's get into the legality of it.
From a legal point of view and now having read that e-mail chain, could Donald Trump Jr. be prosecuted here or is it too much of a stretch?
JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It's a bit of a stretch, but let's just back up 1 minute, Issa, and let's talk about this from whatever perspective
you're on. If you are motivated prosecutor you are going to find that there is something potentially a missed.
You are taking a meeting with a government -- with an official, you know she's an attorney, the representative of the Russian government. There is
already instances in all of this innuendo about collusion. We have Russia hacking into our system.
You have the nature of changing the whole equation politically to get your father elected. You know or are you saying you do not know that, of
course, this person has opposition research on Hillary Clinton, does it end there?
What else or what other follow-through did you do with this official, and not with her through any other intermediaries and so it smells bad. That
does not mean, however, that there is any criminality.
[15:20:09]Now from the defense perspective you can meet with whoever you want. Opposition research in any campaign is generally (inaudible). It is
the norm, whether you are talking about Russia, who is an enemy of the United States, not an ally, who has interest that are detrimental to our
And so you can meet with whoever you want. It's a free country. In light of that, you can meet whatever you want. There is no evidence or other
information of collusion with regard to the meeting itself and so from that regard, you could say that there is no criminality out here at all.
I think the optics of this, Isa, are more politically damaging att this point than they are anything towards a variety of saying that there has
been any law broken. But remember this, whenever there is an investigation, and we should know, and the viewers should know, there are
We have an independent counsel investigating this issue. We have congressional committees that are investigating the issue. This is a piece
of the puzzle and so while it may not be a smoking gun, OK, you can argue that this is just another piece of things that just do not seem to be
And so another thing for Robert Mueller who is the head of the investigation to look at to say, was there collusion or was there not? But
if I had to just judge the meeting itself, you know, strictly on objective terms, strictly on law terms, I do not see anything at this point.
Knowing what I know, having read what I read to be outright illegal, you know, perhaps highly inappropriate, perhaps should not have happened, but
to say it's illegal and lock him up and throw away the key, I am not certainly prepared to say that at this time.
SOARES: So Joey, let me just clarify something. So from your legal perspective, any law has been broken when it comes to campaign norms,
finance law, is that all -- you said it's obviously optics. It's not great, but when it comes to those campaign laws and finance laws, that's
JACKSON: Well, it's a great question, right? Because remember this, is that whenever an investigation begins, it may start out with let's look at
the issue of collusion, but any investigation as a former prosecutor, I could tell you, and as a defense attorney, I could tell you, often times
uncovers information that, you know what, we did not know going in, but now this is what we have.
And so you have to examine to be fair, you have to examine issues about campaign finance, you have to examine issues about was there any, you know,
misleading or false information provided. And so you look at all laws as a whole.
But just in examining it, I could say that again, the political optics look bad, they look terrific regarding this, but I cannot see at this point,
again, just as objective as I possibly can be to say, man, this is a smoking gun and Jr., you're to end up in a federal penitentiary. I do not
But again it's part of a puzzle and a piece to the overall issue of whether or not Mr. Trump or any of his surrogates were involved in any collusion,
involved in any hacking, involved, you know, in any intermingling with a foreign power, you know, that is an open question.
And that is something that these congressional committees as well as the independent counsel will get to in due course in considering everything,
not just one thing.
SOARES: A lot to consider. Joey Jackson, always great to get your perspective. Thanks very much.
JACKSON: Thank you.
SOARES: Now coming up next, Qatar isn't wasting time crying over spilled milk, it is bypassing Saudi Arabia and shipping in dairy cows from Europe.
We'll have the latest on the crisis in the Gulf. Our Jomani Karadsheh is live next.
SOARES: Well, there is a new twist in the diplomatic crisis we have been following here in CNN. Qatar is shipping in cows from Europe, Australia,
and the U.S. to deal with a crippling embargo imposed by its Gulf neighbors.
Now Doha usually imports nearly all of its dairy products from Saudi Arabia, but with that ban door closed, Qatar is really getting creative.
The (inaudible) is expected to bring in 4,000 cows into Qatar in the next month.
Well, meanwhile, U.S. Secretary of State Rex Tillerson is in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia lobbying for an end to this crisis. CNN's Jomana Karadsheh recently
returned from Qatar and joins me now live from Amman in Jordan.
Jomana, it looks as though, you know, Qatar really is preparing for this standoff to last. So is there any evidence from what you've seen and those
you spoken that Rex Tillerson is having any success in these meetings?
JOMANA KARADSHEH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, Isa, you have to just look at the recent developments despite the mediation efforts, despite
this, U.S. shuttle diplomacy with Rex Tillerson yesterday in Doha today and Jeddah back to Doha tomorrow.
It does not seem like either side is backing down, right now, at least publicly. You know, we are looking at these messages that are coming from
both sides. You've got the Qataris today announcing the arrival of the fifth batch of Turkish troops.
And this is part of their cooperation, (inaudible) cooperation deal with Ankara, and if you recall, this was one of the main points on that list of
demands by the Saudi-led alliance.
They wanted to scrapped the plans of having a Turkish-base in Qatar and then you have on the other side, you've got the Egyptians. Egypt calling
for the expulsion of Qatar from the global coalition against ISIS saying you cannot have a country that supports and funds terrorism as part of a
coalition that's fighting exactly that.
And of course, we know Qatar has repeatedly denied these accusations. So Secretary Tillerson has a very tough job to try and perhaps secure any sort
of compromise from both sides, but some in the region, Isa, are feeling a bit more optimistic, perhaps a bit more of an active mediation role by the
If you look back early on in the crisis, the U.S. really was sending mixed messages. There was this inconsistent U.S. division with Secretary
Tillerson and the State Department trying to bring this dispute to an end.
Calling for de-escalation while President Trump seemed to be taking Saudi Arabia's side, which many felt was making this word. So we have to wait
and see what comes out of Secretary Tillerson's trips around the region.
SOARES: And Jomana, you know, I am not trying to be flipping at all, but you know, seeing these cows being shipped in really brings the story to
life, which is how much turmoil this crisis is actually causing on the ground? So paint us a picture of the reality of this embargo?
KARADSHEH: Well, look, Isa, you know, right now there isn't much of an impact that you can see when it comes to the embargo, when it comes to
these measures that were put in place on June 5th. Yes, some things are more costly to bring into Qatar, but people are not really feeling the
impact just yet.
But if you talk to experts, you talked to economist, they tell you that if these measures are in place for a long time, they will start to hurt. When
you talk about this issue of flying in the cows, Qatar was really reliant on that border crossing with Saudi Arabia.
It's only land crossing. They were getting the milk from Saudi Arabia and on the first day of the crisis when you have this panic buying, people
really bought all the milk that was on the shelves.
So you had a shortage in fresh milk and that really worried a lot of people there until you had really Turkey stepping in shipping in fresh milk, and
that's what really caused this local business to try and be creative, flying in cows to perhaps someday Qatar becoming self-reliant when it comes
to fresh milk.
They are finding ways around it. As one expert explained it to me saying Qatar had a survivalist foreign policy. It's tried to keep more friends
than enemies and it's come to rely on these friends a time like this, like Turkey and Iran, for example.
SOARES: Jomana Karadsheh, thanks very much, Jomana. Really good to see you.
Still to come right here on the WORLD RIGHT NOW, U.S. President Donald Trump is heading back Europe just hours from now.
[15:30:00] We'll be live in Paris with a preview of his meetings with President Emmanuel Macron.
SOARES: Welcome back to THE WORLD RIGHT NOW. Now, he barely had time to unpack his bags from Europe before he had to pack them again. Just hours
from now, U.S. President Donald Trump will board Air Force One for a brief trip to Paris. He'll meet with French President Emmanuel Macron and take
part in Bastille Day celebrations.
Now, Mr. Trump may be leaving Washington behind, but the Russia controversy dogging his White House will be sure to follow. He's going to update from
Paris now. CNN's Melissa Bell has the story now, what we can expect from his trip.
MELISSA BELL, CNN PARIS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The family photograph of the G20 more divided than ever, not only along old fault lines but new
ones as well, like the ideological divide that now separates the United States from its historical Western European allies.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: A strong Europe is a blessing to the West and to the world.
BELL (voice-over): President Trump may have said the U.S.-Transatlantic bond with Europe is stronger than ever, but underneath the words the
tension is real. Europe knew change was coming when Donald Trump won the election. His promise to put America first brought to an end a consensus
that had lasted since the end of World War II.
But it was Emmanuel Macron's election in France just a few months later that brought the divide into sharper focus. The new French President
vowing to defend more aggressively the enlightenment ideals and the international organizations now under populist threat, but not without
paying credit where it was due.
EMMANUEL MACRON, PRESIDENT OF FRANCE: So I think Mr. Trump was extremely smart to play with emotion, guts of your people. And that's the first
point. Second, he was disruptive in a certain way vis-a-vis the rest of the system and people loved that because now, they are fed up with the
political system. And third, he understood the frustration of American middle classes and workers about this globalization and the increasing
inequalities of globalization.
BELL (voice-over): It was the point of the handshake at the NATO Summit in Brussels in May, more arm wrestle than greeting. And far from innocent,
Macron explained later. It was about standing his ideological ground. The French President apparently going out of his way to make his feelings with
regard to Donald Trump plain.
An early clash of ideas seemed inevitable, and it came on climate change.
TRUMP: I was elected to represent the citizens of Pittsburgh, not Paris.
[15:35:06] MACRON: I do think it is an actual mistake.
BELL (voice-over): The battle then carried over into tweets. The next round in the battle of ideas will come on July 14th, when Donald Trump
joins Emmanuel Macron for Bastille Day, a celebration of the French Revolution and the idea of universal values of liberty that fueled it.
SOARES: And Melissa Bell joins me now live from Paris. And, Melissa, as your piece quite rightly pointed out, you know, the first time that both of
these leaders met, there was a strong kind of alpha male handshake. But these two men are very, very different in style, as you said as well, in
terms of policy. So what do they have in common? And crucially, too, how do Parisians feel about President Trump's visit?
BELL: Well, strangely, actually, Isa, there is more there in common that you might -- than you might, at first glance, suspect. These are, after
all, two political outsiders who challenged the political elites and the political system in their respective countries.
They both came from money in a sense. One came from real estate in the United States; the other came from the world of banking. And they both
really shook things up, not only with the fact of their elections, but with everything that they've done since.
So these are two men who do share a lot of things, but, of course, you know, they do share -- they do -- there is so much that divides them.
There is policy. There is the style. Emmanuel Macron really, Isa, represents the consensus that preceded the election of Donald Trump, the
one that bound Western Europe to the United States and this for so many years.
The point about the Friday celebrations, the 14th of July celebrations, is that this will be the same scenery of the American entry into World War I.
And I think it is no surprise that Emmanuel Macron has chosen to invite the American President to this particular occasion. It is, after all, a
military display, reminder of France's strength, but also a military display that reminds the American President that, actually, these ties are
pretty historic and that they are military. They are ideological and that they matter.
On the questions of what Parisians think, you know, there's been very resistance to the idea of this visit. It's been remarkable and I think a
measure really, Isa, not so much of France's, you know, sudden fondness for Donald Trump but actually of Emmanuel Macron's popularity so far.
SOARES: Melissa Bell for us in Paris this hour. Thanks very much, Melissa.
I want to turn now to our trop story and really go below the surface on this new e-mail firestorm inside the White House. CNN Political
Commentator Ana Navarro tweeted the following: keeping track of this Russian scandal is hard. Let's make it easy. If you're a Russian
operative and did not with Trump, well, raise your hand.
Ana joins me right now from Washington. Ana, really great to have you on the show. I can roughly guess where you stand on this, but let me thoughts
on this e-mail chain. Do you think this is the smoking gun?
ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I certainly think it's a - it's damning evidence. First of all, it's damning evidence that the Trump world
have been lying publicly, emphatically, and you know, with a show of complete lack of remorse for months and months and months now. So it calls
into question their credibility about just about everything. So that's a very big problem.
It also calls into question their ethics and their moral compass. I worked on the John McCain campaign. I know the Romney kids very well. I cannot
imagine any of Mitt Romney's five sons or any of John McCain's children responding to a solicitation to give intel on an -- on an opponent from an
operative of a geopolitical foe like Russia is. It shows gross lack of moral compass by Donald Trump, Jr., his brother-in-law who, currently,
works in the White House and the then campaign manager.
You know, some people make the argument, oh, well, Donald Trump, Jr., Jared Kushner, novices, had really never been in this political world. Yes,
that's fine and dandy, but Paul Manafort has been doing high-level politics in this country and foreign countries longer than you and I have been
SOARES: Well, we heard from Donald Trump, Jr., who I know you call Trumpito, in which he basically said someone sends me an e-mail and I can't
help what someone sends me. And then he went on to say, you know, it was a waste of 20 minutes and he got nothing. Does that justify the meeting to
you? Does it make it OK, Ana?
NAVARRO: No. Look, first of all, I don't believe him that he got nothing because, at this point, I really don't believe a thing that comes out of
that boy's mouth. Second of all, it's the intent that matters here. And we saw, in black and white, we saw in the e-mails that he released that
when he heard he was being offered opposition research, when he heard he was being offered negative information on his father's opponent, he was
[15:40:04] He said if it is what you say it is, I love it. Those were his verbatim words. So whether he got it or not, we don't know. If you want
to believe him, it's up to you. I choose not to believe a word he says.
But what I do know is when he got the offer, he was very enthusiastic and moved quickly to execute that meeting and make it happen. And I think that
shows all the intent you need to know to know that, yes, they were willing to collude with Russia. And they were willing to allow Russia to meddle in
the election, if it meant helping his father, if it meant hurting Hillary Clinton.
And that is very serious because you're talking about calling into question the integrity of our democracy, the integrity of U.S. elections, which is
the foundation on which our democracy is based.
SOARES: Well, let me ask you this, Ana. You know, I was speaking to Democratic Congressman Jim McGovern earlier on the show. And he basically
said, in the halls of Congress, he is basically hearing Republicans quietly express concern over these e-mails and what they reveal. What are you
hearing from the Republican side and why are they doing it so quietly?
NAVARRO: Because they don't want to oppose the President of their own party, because they're hopeful of being able to pass agenda items. But as
a Republican -- and I was a Republican when Donald Trump was a Democrat, I was a Republican when Donald Trump was an independent, and I'm still a
As a Republican, I am -- I'm very sad, I'm very disappointed by my party's reaction to this, but for some notable exceptions like Senator Lindsey
Graham. There's been a quiet resignation and a lack of condemnation of what's going on. And I will tell you it's hypocrisy and it's
Because there is no doubt in my mind that if this had been Chelsea Clinton in a meeting with Huma Abedin, John Podesta, the Clinton campaign manager,
and a Russian operative and Republicans knew about it, they would be dousing themselves with gasoline today and setting themselves on fire,
screaming bloody murder, and moving to investigate and impeach.
And so this silence is, frankly, disappointing. It is complicit. And they are losing sight that this is not about our party. This is about our
country and our institutions.
SOARES: Ana Navarro, it's great to get your thoughts. Thanks, Ana. Good to see you.
NAVARRO: Thank you.
SOARES: Now, in the middle of all these turmoil, President Trump's pick to lead the FBI was getting grilled by a Senate panel at his confirmation
hearing. Chris Wray says he is committed to the rule of the law and the constitution and will resign if he's ever asked to do something illegal or
immoral. Even if he's asked to do so by the President.
Republican Senator Lindsey Graham also forcefully questioned Wray about Robert Mueller, who is leading the federal probe into Russian meddling in
the 2016 election. Have a look at -- have a listen to this exchange.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: Do you believe that, in light of the Don Jr. e-mail and other allegations, that this whole thing about Trump
campaign and Russia is a witch hunt? Is that a fair description of what we're all dealing with in America?
CHRISTOPHER WRAY, NOMINEE FOR DIRECTOR OF THE FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION: Well, Senator, I can't speak to the bases for those
comments. I can tell you that my experience with Director Mueller --
GRAHAM: I'm asking you, as the future FBI Director, do you consider this endeavor a witch hunt?
WRAY: I do not consider Director Mueller to be on a witch hunt.
GRAHAM: Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: Now, here in the U.K., it's been delayed twice but it's finally happening. Spanish King Felipe and his wife are on a state visit to the
U.K. and the King raised the issue of Gibraltar during a speech to Parliament. You're seeing it there. He said he hopes an agreement can be
reached that would satisfy everyone.
Now, Gibraltar is a British overseas territory, literally on Spain's doorsteps as you can see there on that map. And its future could be
discussed as part of the Brexit negotiations.
Well, let's put the politics to the side for now because King Felipe is now taking part in this state banquet, as you can see there, with British Queen
Elizabeth. These are live pictures coming to you from London, and these are coming from Buckingham Palace.
You are watching THE WORLD RIGHT NOW. Coming up, a former Brazilian president is sentenced to prison. All that and much more when THE WORLD
returns after this short break.
[15:46:18] SOARES: Now, in the last hour or so, we have learned that former Brazilian President Luis Inacio da Silva, commonly known as Lula,
has been sentenced to 9-1/2 years in prison over corruption charges.
Our Shasta Darlington joins us now from Rio de Janeiro with more. And, Shasta, this relates to the carwash scandal. That's the nickname, of
course, for Brazil's kind of biggest ever corruption probe. Talk us through the charges against him and how Brazilians may take to the news
because he's pretty popular at home, isn't' he?
SHASTA DARLINGTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Isa. This is a stunning downfall for a man who was elected twice to the presidency and, in
fact, who left the office with an approval rating of over 80 percent. Now, he has been found guilty of graft and money laundering, sentenced to 9-1/2
year in prison.
While it is stunning, it isn't exactly a surprise. His role in this investigation has really been going on for a year. He is accused of
receiving bribes worth $1.2 million from the construction company OAS in exchange for contracts with the state-run oil company, Petrobas.
Now, he can appeal. In fact, he is expected to appeal and the judge has determined that he can await this -- the appeal in freedom. But if it's --
if the -- if he is found guilty in the appeal, he won't be allowed to run for office. And this is a huge deal because he's actually leading in the
polls for the 2018 race. He was gearing up for a comeback because of all of those supporters.
During his two terms in office, he lifted millions of people out of poverty into the lower middle class. He was the first working class president
himself, and a lot of people really see themselves reflected in him despite these allegations of corruption.
And in fact, this is just the highest profile conviction in the long- running carwash case, which has already brought down dozens of major league politicians, leading business people. And it was a main driver in the
impeachment trial against Lula's handpicked successor, Dilma Rousseff. In fact, the current president, Michel Temer, is facing corruption charges of
his own, and he is trying to avoid trial in the Supreme Court.
So, if anything, what we're seeing here is just how widespread the corruption is in Brazil's political class. And whether or not Lula himself
will be allowed to run in the 2018 elections, many Brazilians are just outraged and really scratching their heads, wondering who will be allowed
to run, who actually isn't tainted by this scandal, Isa.
SOARES: Yes. Brazil's facing a major political crisis. Thanks very much, Shasta. Good to see you.
Now, a massive iceberg is now on the move after snapping off an ice shelf in West Antarctica. It's not the biggest one on record, but still massive
at 5,800 square kilometers. That's more than three times the size of the greater London area.
Andrew Sheppard joins me now via Skype to talk about the impact of this giant ice cube. He's a professor of Earth Observation at the University of
Andrew, thanks very much for taking the time to speak to us. Now, this is, of course, in terms of size, a trillion ton iceberg and that's roughly the
size of Luxemburg for our European viewers. How worrying is this? Are you worried at all about this?
ANDREW SHEPHERD, PROFESSOR OF EARTH OBSERVATION, UNIVERSITY OF LEEDS: Well, let's put this in context. Antarctica has changed over the past 20,
30 years quite a lot actually. And it's definitely feeling the effects of climate change.
This part of Antarctica where the iceberg is broken free from has experienced some of the strongest effects of climate change. And that's
why people are concerned about this particular berg.
[15:49:59] I have to say, most of us think that it's unlikely to have a huge effect on the ice behind it. But the earlier icebergs that have
broken free from this part of the planet have, and they've caused the ice, the glaciers, behind them to speed up and contribute to sea level rise. So
we just have to keep watching to see whether there is an impact, whether the iceberg would just spill it.
SOARES: And what does this do to the sea level rises you are mentioning there?
SHEPHERD: Yes. Well, this is a colossal iceberg. You've already said yourself, it's more 350 meters thick, and it's a huge thing floating thing
around in the ocean. But for it broke free, it was already floating, and so it won't cause any sea level rise on its own. It will be a big hazard
for any folks that are sailing around Antarctica and so the notion is (INAUDIBLE) now that there is an iceberg.
But what we've seen is when very large chunks of ice break free from the ice sheet, that destabilizes the glaciers that are on land behind it. And
that can have a knock on effect and sea levels can rise because those glaciers can flow more freely into the seas. It takes a bigger chunk than
the one that's been lost today to usually disturb the glaciers of Antarctica.
SOARES: Are you seeing this happen more frequently, Andrew? I mean, this must raise alarm bells because of climate change and the impact that's
having on this part of the world.
SHEPHERD: Well, what's important to hammer home to people is that they changes that are happening in Antarctica are huge, and this is a really
good example. So although we might think here in the U.K. where I am or in Europe, whoever is listening, that half a degree change in the Earth's
temperature isn't a big deal. In Antarctica, it can cause huge events.
So this iceberg, as you say, is 150, 200 kilometers long. It's a huge chunk of ice floating around in the ocean. And so small changes to the
continents' climate can have big, big effects. This one may just be business as usual. It may just be an iceberg that's floating into the
oceans as happens 10 years or so or more than that in some places, or it may be a signal of climate change.
And the only way we'll tell is by looking at glaciers now that float into these parts of ice to see whether or not they speed up. And if they do,
it's going to be hard to say that this is just a normal event.
SOARES: Andrew Shepherd, thanks very much. Thanks for joining us.
Coming up here on THE WORLD RIGHT NOW, meet one more than usual star of Wimbledon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTINA MACFARLANE, CNN WORLD SPORT CORRESPONDENT: His name is Rufus. The rule hawk eye of Center Court.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: But what exactly does he do at Center Court? We'll explain. Next.
SOARES: Now, when it comes to tradition, it's hard to beat Wimbledon. The strawberries and cream, the tennis whites. And there's one player that
seems to come back every year. He's never injured and he always wins it seems. Our Christina MacFarlane met him.
MACFARLANE (voice-over): This is the court where many historic battles have been won and lost. Sampras against Agassi, Venus against Serena
Williams, and Nadal versus Federer. But throughout it all, there's been one player who's ruled the roost. And his name is Rufus. The real hawk
eye of Center Court.
[15:55:04] IMOGEN DAVIS, OWNER AND HANDLER OF RUFUS: So Rufus' job, he is the chief pigeon carer here at Wimbledon. We're here all year round, but
we start at 5:00 every morning during the championships to scare away any pigeons that may be interested in eating the grass feed and therefore
interrupting play in the middle of a really important point game.
MACFARLANE (voice-over): Pigeons have been a pesky at Wimbledon for decades. But thanks to Rufus, gone are the days when these feathery fiends
used to flutter down and disrupt play.
DAVIS: 1999 was when we first joined. And it was -- you would have seen it on the television and the pigeons were being batted away from the
baseline, but they just kept backing in again. You know how persistent pigeons can be. And they don't know the difference between there's -- when
there's a match going on and when there isn't. So that was kind of really crucial point and that's when we kind of got in touch and said we can help
with the situation.
MACFARLANE (voice-over): Now, Rufus is a fixture on Center Court and a celebrity in his own right, with fans flocking to see him both on and off
DAVIS: I feel like his agent. He is my Andi Murray, he's my Nadal. We had a chat with Boris Becker other day.
MACFARLANE (voice-over): How many Twitter followers does he have?
DAVIS: We're nearing 10,000.
MACFARLANE (voice-over): Wow.
DAVIS: So 10,000 fans for a bird, I think, is a good number.
MACFARLANE (voice-over): Here he comes.
DAVIS: Hold it nice and strong.
MACFARLANE (voice-over): As I got into grips with the basics of falconry, we received word that Rufus' biggest fan had arrived at Wimbledon. And he
wasn't difficult to spot.
MACFARLANE (on camera): I absolutely love the detail that you've gone into. Talk me through your outfit.
CHRIS FAVA, FAN OF RUFUS: OK. So, first, down here, we have the leggings for Rufus' legs, you know, the classic sort of bird legs. And this big
part up here, this was made from -- in Denmark. Finally, this was an old bomber hat, a vintage hat, and I took it and I painted it. Actually, if
you look at this hat, this is exactly like --
MACFARLANE (on camera): The same thing.
FAVA: But I added a little sass to it, the --
MACFARLANE (on camera): A little trinkle.
FAVA: Yes, a little something.
MACFARLANE (voice-over): All that effort certainly paid off when the two hawks came face to face in the queue.
FAVA: I guess it was like looking at the feathers, he was trying to decide if I was a real bird or not. And then we flew off together.
MACFARLANE (voice-over): As they say, birds of a feather stick together. And this year, Rufus has a mate for life.
Christina MacFarlane, CNN, Wimbledon.
SOARES: And this has been THE WORLD RIGHT NOW. Thank you very much for watching. "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is up next with Richard Quest in New
York. Do stay right here with CNN. We are, of course, the world's news leader.