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Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield
Sixteen-year-old Murders Mom; Investigation Underway; The Hunt With John Walsh
Aired July 26, 2017 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BRITTANY PILKINGTON, MOTHER: Yes, we need an ambulance.
911 OPERATOR: Do you think he may have choked on anything?
B. PILKINGTON: I don`t think so, or not for sure.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The prosecutor tells us Brittany Pilkington killed her three sons out of jealousy of the attention they received from her husband.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Third child found deceased in the same home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everyone had a gut feeling.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was just a quiet kid.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Prosecutors say Pilkington told them she suffocated the boys with a blanket.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: From what I seen, she was a good mother.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The tragic deaths leave a pit in our stomachs today.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m shocked and horrified.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Donna Ziragosa (ph) dead in one bedroom of her Bel Air home, bloody kitchen knife tucked behind her son`s bedroom door.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And we realized through the investigation that he had, in fact, killed his mother.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who had apparently had been hit with a hammer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Andrew had texted a person with a graphic picture of his mother`s murder scene.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I grabbed the baby I (INAUDIBLE) because I didn`t really pay attention. My focus is on the newborn baby.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A shocking discovery in a grocery store parking lot.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my gosh.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It still has the umbilical cord?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, a little girl.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A newborn baby abandoned. And now the search is on for the girl`s parents.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
JOEY JACKSON, GUEST HOST: A pleasant good evening, everyone. I`m Joey Jackson, in for Ashleigh Banfield. And this is PRIMETIME JUSTICE.
You know, a young mother in Ohio is accused of killing her three young children. You see them there. It`s Niall, Gavin and Noah. The mom,
Brittany Pilkington, confessed to the horrific crimes, but a jury may never hear her admit to those crimes, her defense team is fighting so hard to
keep those tapes out of the courtroom.
I want to take you back to the first death. That`s July 22nd, 2014. Precious little one, 2-month-old Niall, wasn`t breathing, so Dad called
911. Take a listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: 911, where is your emergency?
JOSEPH PILKINGTON, FATHER: Yes, we have an emergency. Our little infant, he`s not breathing at all.
911 OPERATOR: OK, can you start CPR?
J. PILKINGTON: Yes. My wife`s trying. Keep going.
911 OPERATOR: Who are we talking about, how old a patient?
J. PILKINGTON: He`s 3 months.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
JACKSON: Eight-and-a-half months later, a second 911 call, another child dead. This time, 4-year-old Gavin. Brittany Pilkington called for help.
Listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: 911, what is your emergency?
B. PILKINGTON: Yes, we need an ambulance.
911 OPERATOR: What`s going on?
B. PILKINGTON: Our son`s not breathing.
911 OPERATOR: How old is your son?
B. PILKINGTON: He`s 4.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Is he choking?
J. PILKINGTON: Oh, my God!
B. PILKINGTON: No, he`s not choking. I don`t...
(CROSSTALK)
911 OPERATOR: (INAUDIBLE) 4-year-old not breathing (INAUDIBLE)
Is he in his crib?
B. PILKINGTON: We got him out of his bed right now. He`s doing CPR.
911 OPERATOR: You are doing CPR?
B. PILKINGTON: Yes. Yes!
911 OPERATOR: OK. We`re coming. Tell him we`re coming.
J. PILKINGTON: Gavin, wake up, buddy!
(END AUDIO CLIP)
JACKSON: And then the unthinkable -- only four months later, a third child, that`s Noah, and Brittany -- she calls 911. Listen to this.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: 911. What`s your emergency?
B. PILKINGTON: Yes, we need an ambulance.
911 OPERATOR: OK. What`s going on?
B. PILKINGTON: Our son`s on an apnea monitor and it`s going off. He`s not breathing.
911 OPERATOR: OK. How old is he?
B. PILKINGTON: He`s 3 months.
911 OPERATOR: And has CPR been started?
B. PILKINGTON: No, not yet. Well, he`s on it right now.
911 OPERATOR: You said he`s 3 months old, ma`am?
B. PILKINGTON: Yes.
911 OPERATOR: How is his color?
B. PILKINGTON: His color?
J. PILKINGTON: (INAUDIBLE) come on!
B. PILKINGTON: He`s -- he`s not breathing. It just keeps going off.
911 OPERATOR: OK, how is his color? Is he bluish?
B. PILKINGTON: I imagine he`s probably bluish right now.
911 OPERATOR: How does he feel to your husband? Is he cool?
B. PILKINGTON: Is he cool? They`re asking questions. Is he cool or not? Yes.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
JACKSON: The coroner ruled little Noah`s death a homicide by suffocation. He even noted in the autopsy findings that they were consistent with a
family history of death and determined that both Niall and Gavin died of similar circumstances. After Brittany and husband Joe were brought in for
questioning, mom confessed to the killings.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She has confessed to placing a blanket over the faces of all three of her children and holding down either face down or face up
until they expired.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: Now Brittany`s attorneys claim that she has a low IQ and brain damaging -- brain damage, that is, and it`s so damaging that the confession
should be thrown out, not allowed in court. And we`ll see if that happens.
[20:05:08]We have PRIMETIME JUSTICE reporter Justin Freiman. He`s been working this story all day long. So Justin, get us up to speed. How is it
that they`re arguing that the confession -- she confesses to all three -- now should be thrown out of court? What`s the justification?
JUSTIN FREIMAN, PRIMETIME JUSTICE PRODUCER (via telephone): Well, Joey, she did confess to all three, but now her defense is saying that she has
brain damage, she has a low IQ, and they`re saying that because of this, the stress and the pressure that she was feeling during the interrogation
caused her to just go along with what investigators would want to hear and that it should be thrown out.
JACKSON: Now, we`re going to show the full screen of the timeline of the deaths of these children. But Justin, as we do that, remind us here, the
interrogation -- she signed a waiver, I`m led to believe, that is her Miranda warnings, she says, right? That`s when they say, You have the
right to remain silent, anything you say can and will be used against you. That waiver was indeed signed, was it not?
FREIMAN: It was. It was. And they actually already tried to argue this in front of a judge and they tried to fight to say, Look, this shouldn`t be
allowed. She was coerced. A judge decided she wasn`t coerced. It is going in. But now what happened is the defense has two doctors that came
forward and have done their own testing and say this brain damage and other issues mean it should be tossed out.
JACKSON: Now, Justin, stand by because we have Katie Wedell. She is a reporter for the "Dayton Daily News." She joins us from Dayton. So tell
us about that. We are talking about how they want -- the defense, that is -- these confessions not to see the light of day in the courtroom, and
they`re basing that upon, apparently, experts which are saying that there are some deficiencies in her that really would justify not allowing this
confession to be admitted. So what do you know about that?
KATIE WEDELL, "DAYTON DAILY NEWS" (via telephone): Yes, they have two different doctors. A psychologist and a neuropsychologist both examined
Brittany and they said that she has borderline low IQ. She has cognitive issues from having lead poisoning as a child, brain injuries, and that her
history of abuse as a child also made her susceptible to being coerced.
JACKSON: Now, Katie, are these experts that are hired by the defense? Has the prosecution hired its own independent experts that might otherwise
contradict what the defense experts are saying?
WEDELL: Yes. These two are hired by the defense. So I would assume that when this does go to trial, there would possibly be other experts on the
other side.
JACKSON: I`m pretty -- that`s probably a pretty good assumption, Katie. And let me ask you this about the issue of coercion. I understand that she
was given a break during this questioning. She was offered food during the questioning. She was asked if she wanted to write instead of talk. Is
that accurate?
WEDELL: Those are all accurate, yes. From what we heard, she refused food and water. This did go on for nine hours after she had just been at the
hospital. Her child had just died. But she did not indicate at any time that, you know, she needed a break. And the judge did say, though, that
the investigators used coercive tactics. However, he said that in the end, from what he had seen on the video originally, that she was making a
confession of her own voluntary free will.
JACKSON: All right, Katie. Thanks so much. Stand by. I`m going to talk about that momentarily with the lawyers that are here. But before we do
that, I want to hear from Jennifer Kravitz. She`s a clinical neuropsychologist. She joins us from Los Angeles. Nice to have you with
us.
First of all, can you explain exactly what people like you do because a person like you, a neuropsychologist, two of them, interviewed her and
said, You know what? There`s something wrong here. So what`s your job?
JENA KRAVITZ, CLINICAL NEUROPSYCHOLOGIST: Well, so she was interviewed by a neuropsychologist and a clinical psychologist for two different reasons.
But a neuropsychologist administers a long battery of tests to try to get an objective measure of cognitive abilities. And then we have a bunch of
scores that are objective data, and we can make assumptions about somebody`s cognitive abilities based on the data.
JACKSON: So Jena, based upon that, if I can ask you -- those cognitive tests -- what do they reveal about a person`s background that would give
you an indication of them not being able to understand?
KRAVITZ: So all domains of cognitive functioning are tested, especially in something like this, from executive functions like problem solving,
decision making, judgment, to memory, to attention and concentration, language functions, visual spatial functions, and the list goes on. So all
of that information can give us a good idea of what someone is capable of.
And in a context of something like a capacity or a competency determination, it will tell us whether somebody is actually capable of, you
know, signing a Miranda rights, or you know, making a confession about something like this.
[20:10:02]JACKSON: So Jena Kravitz, now that we`ve qualified you as an expert, as we would do in a courtroom -- so tell us about this case. I
know you that looked into it quite a lot. You read the reports and documents there. Does the defense have a legitimate claim in terms of
suppressing -- that is throwing out -- any statement that she made to the police?
KRAVITZ: Yes. Not only...
JACKSON: How so?
KRAVITZ: ... was she evaluated by an extremely credible neuropsychologist who`s board-certified and has a lot of experience doing this, but the
report or the documents that I had access to did suggest that she has enough damage in that right hemisphere to -- you know, to essentially make
a case that she didn`t know -- she couldn`t -- she was too overwhelmed, let`s just say. I`m getting tongue tied here. She was too overwhelmed
with the interrogation to be able to process everything.
She has poor information processing speed. So when questions are thrown at her very quickly, her brain doesn`t integrate all of that information as
quickly as someone else`s might.
And so a lot of times, when someone has brain injury or some neurological illness, there`s a sense of shame associated when they can`t follow
conversations, when they can`t track. And rather than become defensive about it, sometimes people will just smile and nod. And it seems like her
coping mechanism was to just try and comply because perhaps she couldn`t process everything that was going on.
JACKSON: So Jena, let me push back a little bit, as we, right, would do with an expert because people would question how she doesn`t understand,
her brain doesn`t work. I mean, we have a full-screen of the dates that she killed her children. And it wasn`t one, it wasn`t two, it wasn`t (sic)
three. And so clearly, her brain was functioning enough to suffocate her children at this time, right? We could agree upon that, can we not?
KRAVITZ: Yes.
JACKSON: And we and also agree -- you see the dates there, July 22nd, 2014, Niall, he`s dead. Gavin`s dead on April 6 of 2015, and then Noah,
August 18th of 2015. So her brain`s functioning enough then.
And we also, by the way -- we have a full-screen of what she says in the confession, and that is she covered their faces. And if we could show
that, exactly what she says there. So this is what she says, Jean. I just want you to react to it.
Brittany stated that she covered the faces of each of the boys while she suffocated them so that -- so she would not have to see them die. So
apparently, she`s cognitively aware enough to kill her children and then to cover the faces so she doesn`t have to see them die, but she`s not aware
enough to make a confession to doing that? Is that essentially the expert claim here?
KRAVITZ: Well, you can argue that her problem-solving skills were not great, right? This is somebody who couldn`t cope with being a mother,
potentially, and chose to kill her children instead of, you know, becoming a better parent or any other alternative that would have been safer. So
yes, there`s definitely problem solving involved.
Now, they`re not -- they`re not arguing that she`s not -- that she`s incapable of problem solving at all. What they`re arguing is that her
complex problem solving was likely impaired enough to not be able to withstand that interrogation. So you know, the question was, is it
possible that her testimony should be thrown out based on this report? Yes, it`s possible that she was unable to integrate all of this
information.
JACKSON: But here`s the problem, Jennifer Kravitz -- I`m sorry, Jena Kravitz. The issue is that it`s possible that, right, Santa Claus comes to
people`s homes, but the reality is it`s about what`s probable. And it would just seem to me that a person who has suffocated three children over
the course of 13 months, who goes into an interrogation room, who voluntarily waives and signs a statement, who gives detailed information
not apparently under duress as to exactly how the children have died, which is corroborated by medical evidence -- it seems to me that that`s voluntary
and knowing. So what am I missing and how am I wrong?
KRAVITZ: You know, I don`t know that you`re missing anything. I think that the issue that came up is, is it possible that because of her history
of brain damage and trauma that she felt coerced into giving this testimony. Yes, that`s possible.
The other issue that comes up is that there have been a lot of comments about her flat affect and how she`s not responsive in a way of, you know, a
mother who potentially just murdered their children and she`s not responding in that way. Well, you know, individuals with right hemisphere
brain damage are -- very commonly have flat affect or that lack of emotional expression.
And so what you`re seeing, that reaction, is not necessarily, you know, diagnosable. That suggests because of the level of her particular brain
damage combined with her history of trauma, that all of these things -- you know, this is a complicated case. All of these factors combined make it
possible that she`s -- you know, she`s voluntary -- you know, volun -- involuntarily giving this particular testimony.
JACKSON: Sure. Interestingly enough, though you say it`s possible, it`s also possible that she did give it voluntarily. We have two lawyers that
are going to have a lot to say about that momentarily. We thank you and we know you`re sticking around, Jena. So we appreciate your expert opinion on
this matter.
[20:15:12]And straight ahead, how it is that three kids died while in Brittany`s care over the course of just 13 months? And will there ever be
justice for those beautiful babies? That`s next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JACKSON: A woman in Ohio is accused of doing the unthinkable, murdering her three children. But how it is that after not one but two of her
children, 3-month-old Niall and 4-year-old Gavin, die in mysterious circumstances, a third child in her care dies, as well, that even after
children`s services investigated, took away Brittany Pilkington`s surviving kids and later returned them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAM GOSLEE, LOGAN COUNTY PROSECUTOR: No one could predict the behavior of this mother, a 23-year-old mother who is apparently killing her children
in order to preserve the smaller family with her and her daughter and the father of the children. It`s just not -- it`s just not thinkable.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:20:16]JACKSON: And now, will there ever be justice for these precious dead children if Mom`s confession is tossed? Joining us now, Caroline
Polisi and David Bruno, defense attorney extraordinaires. But for these purposes, one`s prosecuting, one`s defending.
So let`s talk about this confession. And will go to you, David. We have an issue where the mom has confessed. The defense obviously wants the
confession tossed. Caroline Polisi believes it should be tossed. Your view is it should not be. Why?
DAVID BRUNO, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, the defense has a couple problems. First, procedurally, OK, because this hearing has already taken place. In
fact, this judge heard testimony two days where these issues were not brought up by the defense. And the judge made a ruling and found that the
statements were voluntary and admissible. So first of all, they`re late to the party, and they`re asking for the judge to reconsider.
JACKSON: OK. So the judge reconsiders and he says, You know what? I think I was wrong the first time. Why is he not wrong the first time?
BRUNO: Well, he`s not wrong because even if this individual had some mental deficiencies, it`s not dispositive of this issue. It goes to the
totality of the circumstances. And what the problem is with the expert report in and of itself is that it relies on the defendant, the defendant
who has self-serving reasons to give these stories. And in fact, these are late disclosures. She did not previously tell anyone about these problems
and this trauma until it was after the judge`s ruling.
JACKSON: So she has self-interest here.
BRUNO: Sure.
JACKSON: Caroline, what about that?
BRUNO: Facing murder charges.
JACKSON: What about that?
CAROLINE POLISI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you`re right that the analysis of the court is going to engage in here is the totality of the circumstances.
JACKSON: Consider everything.
POLISI: So considering everything.
JACKSON: OK.
POLISI: Everything points to this confession to be tossed. It should not be seeing the light of day in that courtroom. This woman was uniquely
susceptible to police coercive interrogation techniques, given her vast history of sexual, physical and emotional abuse. When you combine that
with the fact that this was a nine-hour interrogation directly after the death of her child, everything points to this not being a voluntary
confession.
JACKSON: Here`s my problem, Caroline. The problem is, is that you have a waiver, right, where police say you have a right to remain silent, and you
do, if you want to, you can remain silent. She says no. You have a right. Anything you say can and will be used against you. She says OK. She
otherwise then agrees. She gives them information which we know to be credible about what she did. And she says she covers the faces and
everything else. They offer her food. They offer her a break. They offer everything. She seems to be talking voluntarily.
So why now, David, based upon that, should there be an argument that, Oh, it`s nine hours, it`s too long. It should be thrown out.
BRUNO: Sure, there could be an argument, but we`re in this technology age where, fortunately for the prosecutor, there`s a video of this. And yes,
she`s cool, calm, collected. And she makes perfect sense in the statements itself. She talks about the suffocation and also the motive, which I think
is huge because that makes perfect sense. She says why she killed these individuals. She was jealous that the daughter wasn`t getting enough
attention from the father and various other reasons.
POLISI: That`s beside the point.
BRUNO: No, it`s credible. It`s important.
JACKSON: Let`s take a look at this. Now, we have a confession of her killing Gavin. Just show that momentarily, right? All right. So mom`s
confession -- Brittany also admitted that killing Gavin was the hardest as he struggled while she suffocated him. She stated, going on, that she had
to hold his legs down while killing him and that it took a few minutes.
This seems to me, Caroline, that she knows exactly what she`s talking about. She doesn`t seem coerced. She seems that she`s being candid and
explaining exactly what she did. So why should we give her the benefit, a killer who killed three kids over the course of 13 months, by saying she
has trauma? You know, they mistreated her. It was too coercive. It was nine hours. Let`s throw this out.
POLISI: Joey, I don`t care what she said in that confession. The fact is her cognitive and executive functioning were way below average. There`s a
neuropsychologist here that submitted this new testimony here. You know, this should not see the light of day in the courtroom. There`s no reason
for this to come in.
JACKSON: And by the way, talking about light of day, we have the neuropsychologist -- or not the, but certainly a very good one, and that`s
the clinical neuropsychologist you see there. And Jena Kravitz, just weigh in on that issue. Do you think, ultimately, that there is -- I know you
said before it`s possible, but do you think that there`s a firm legal basis? Because I know one thing, and that`s the prosecution is going to
get their own experts to say something contrary to what the defense experts said.
KRAVITZ: Absolutely. And obviously, I`m not an attorney and I`m not a legal expert. But the data is objective. These are psychometrically valid
and reliable measures that we use. And so -- you know, and on top of that, this was a very well-known neuropsychologist who`s credible, who did this
evaluation. And the findings, you know, reflect the objective data here.
[20:25:12]JACKSON: Jena, we appreciate that. And we should just say one thing, ass us attorneys speaking about this, that we`re only speaking about
a confession. And I don`t want to say only because it`s significant. She could still be prosecuted absent the confession. So even if the confession
is suppressed, they would just need other information in order to move forward. We will continue...
BRUNO: But a difficult case for the state, if this confession does not come in...
JACKSON: Absolutely. Always difficult.
BRUNO: ... because on the first two murders, an ME said that the cause and manner were undetermined.
JACKSON: So to be continued. A lot more on that.
Coming up, a Maryland mom is found dead in her bedroom, and her 16-year-old son is the prime suspect. Cops say there`s plenty of forensic evidence
linking him to the crime, including a photo of the bloody crime scene that he texted to a friend. Stand by.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:30:00] JOEY JACKSON, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY, CNN AND HLN LEGAL ANALYST: When police respond to a call, they never know exactly what
they`ll find. Now, nothing we know is routine. And in Maryland, sheriff`s deputies recently responded to a call at a home just outside of Baltimore
and they thought they were investigating an attempted suicide when they did.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAJOR WILLIAM DAVIS, MAJOR, HARFORD COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: They were allowed in the house. Deputies then responded up to the second floor where
they discovered a 56-year-old female who had been -- who was deceased in one of the bedrooms, who apparently had been hit with a hammer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: Now, if that wasn`t bad enough, deputies then found another person locked inside another room in the home`s bedroom.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAJOR JACK SIMPSON, MAJOR, HARFORD COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Negotiations for that person to show themselves commenced and deputies were able to talk
to that person out of the bedroom and it was found that he also resided at the residence and he was the deceased victim`s son.
We put the pieces together. We did a search warrant on the residence. We took statements from the young man. And we realized through the
investigation that he had, in fact, killed his mother.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: Now, investigators say that the forensic evidence surrounding Donna Zaragoza`s death also suggested that she`d been murdered. And then
this shocker. Deputies later learned more than an hour before arriving at the home that her son, Andrew, texted someone a graphic picture of the
murder scene. He`s been arrested and faces charges including first-degree murder.
Dave Priest is the morning show co-host of WRNN. He joins us from Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. So tell us, take us through this. What ultimately
led to this 16-year-old killing his mother? Allegedly.
DAVE PRIEST, MORNING SHOW CO-HOST, WRNN (via telephone): That`s kind of unanswered at this point in time. But according to police, they do say that
the 16-year-old, Andrew Zaragoza, did potentially have some abuse in his life, some mental abuse at least, that`s according to his public defender.
Police do say, though, that they had been at that home several times before for drug abuse, mental illness, domestic situations. They`ve even had a
medical emergency and about a year ago there was an overdose death at that very same location.
JACKSON: Is there any indication that the other authorities were involved, Child Protective Services, anyone else that was called there to sort this
out? It seems as if they kept coming to the house, that there would be some advanced warning as to what was going to go on.
PRIEST: It seems like that would be the case, but I`m not seeing any evidence of that right now.
JACKSON: And as far as this 16-year-old, what do we know about him in terms of his past criminal history, school history, behavioral history?
PRIEST: Well, from what we understand, you know, he seemed to be doing okay. He played football last year when he just finished 10th grade, going
into the 11th grade now as a 16-year-old. But again, it seems like there were enough problems at his house. The neighbors were saying that usually
there is a lot of yelling and screaming.
And as I said, police in and out of that location several times. And his father apparently died a little bit more than a year ago. If you put the
timeline together, that may have been the overdose death that happened. I`m just guessing.
JACKSON: And Dave Priest, answer this. There was some indication that he himself was suicidal, that is the 16-year-old, and that he was drinking
bleach prior to the police coming. What do we know about that? Would that have been his first attempt at suicide, if we know?
PRIEST: Well, I don`t know if it was his first attempt, but it was definitely his latest attempt. When police did get there and coached him
out of the bedroom, he did have cuts on his neck and on his face.
He did tell police that he had drank bleach in an effort to try to kill himself. They took him to the hospital. The wounds were found to be
superficial and self-inflicted. Nothing near life threatening.
JACKSON: Dave Priest, stand by. We appreciate you. I want to go to the clinical neuropsychologist, Jena Kravitz. She joins us of course again from
Los Angeles. So, Jena, I have to ask you. I mean, what goes into the mentality of a 16-year-old killing their mother?
You talked before about these cognitive tests that people in your line of work do. What is the mental makeup that would drive a 16-year-old to this
point?
JENA KRAVITZ, CLINICAL NEUROPSYCHOLOGIST: OK. So Joey, there are three types of children that will harm or murder their parents. Those that are
severely abused, those that are severely mentally ill, and those that are anti-social. But the most frequent are those that are severely abused.
And in my opinion from what we know here -- again, I don`t this individual. But in my opinion, what we have here is someone who was not historically
violent, who was in an environment where he wasn`t safe, he was neglected, he was abused, and this was his only way out.
JACKSON: I mean, only way out, though, would seem -- and stand by, Jena. I just have to bring in the attorneys, Caroline Polisi of course and David
Bruno. Let`s talk about this. What are the defenses here, Caroline? Defense attorney extraordinaire, take us through this.
CAROLINE POLISI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: As Jena (INAUDIBLE) so nicely, I would not
[20:35:00] rule out a self-defense defense in this situation, which by the way is a complete defense to this type of murder. Now, it seems like he had
superficial wounds, but, you know, we`re hearing that they were self- inflicted. I think these wounds could have been perhaps from a domestic violent situation prior to the death of the mother.
Now, another thing we are going to want to look into for mitigating factors here of course is the mental illness, the history of mental illness that
this boy has and certainly if he`s convicted of this crime, that would go to a mitigating factor.
JACKSON: Sure, Caroline. But before doing that, to your point about self- defense though, I mean, David, self-defense, I`m really concerned and I`m really frightened of my 56-year-old mom, so I need to take a hammer and
bludgeon her to death. So is that the type of defense that you think would stand up in your court?
DAVID BRUNO, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Absolutely not. There`s more to it also. So, this is a self-defense case, but I`m going to take pictures of the
crime scene and text it to friends or I`m going to write a letter, which was also found, that described how he killed her. I mean, that`s a great
leap.
I respectfully disagree with the ladies again. OK, this is a clear-cut murder case. There is a murder weapon that is hidden in the defendant`s
bedroom. There is a letter that describes the murder itself. And there is a text message that`s sent to a friend that shows the body and the gruesome
crime scene. I`ll take it.
JACKSON: But to Caroline`s point, you know, I just want to play it. We have a sound here of a major, that`s Hartford County sheriff`s major. And let`s
listen to this and then let`s talk about that, the mitigation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVIS: The house has a history of drug abuse, mental illness, and also domestic issues.
BRITNEE DANSON, NEIGHBOR: They don`t come out of the house, and if they do, they`re usually screaming at each other.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: So, Caroline, I somewhat was belittling your point about the mother who is dangerous at 56 years old, but certainly you as a defense
attorney, I certainly would as well, if there`s a history of abuse, you could certainly make the argument that there may have been some fear by him
that something was going on.
POLISI: Absolutely. For all we know he may have tried to escape, he may have tried to run away from her before and, you know, he was punished for
that. We don`t know what`s been going on behind closed doors. There`s a lot of unanswered questions here. This certainly is not a slam dunk case.
JACKSON: But here is my issue with that, David. My issue is this. There`s a point where you have to defend yourself. We all know that you could exceed
the limits of self-defense because you act excessively. And that`s my issue here. He takes a hammer to the point where he bludgeons her to death. Does
he really need to take it that far? When does it become murder?
BRUNO: Sure, that`s an issue, whether or not he exceeded, what was legally sufficient for a defense. But I just -- I don`t see it right now. And I
think we absolutely need to hear more because based on what has been reported, even if there was some sort of abuse or domestic issues, that
could go both ways.
That could also go to a motive. That`s a great reason to kill someone because you have such animosity and hatred towards an individual.
JACKSON: That`s a good point. So it`s not so much you`re defending yourself, it`s that you don`t like them, so therefore you`re going to take
something out on them. I want to bring in the neuropsychologist on this point, too.
I think we still have Jena Kravitz with us. In setting it up, I mean, certainly the defense may go the whole mitigation route. You heard Caroline
Polisi speaking of that issue, you know, there`s a history of family violence and abuse.
How much of that do you think we could talk about in terms of the child`s mental capacity, how it may have impaired his mental capacity, how he may
have reached the boiling point. Any of that that you could work off as an expert that could be used in court?
KRAVITZ: Well, you know, this is an adolescent. Adolescent brains are not fully developed anyway. Adolescence is kind of like a tumultuous time, you
know, aside from everything.
What you have here is an adolescent who doesn`t have a fully developed brain, with not perfect problem solving, you know, abilities who felt like
-- and I really believe this, out of desperation, this was the only way he could change his life.
I mean, it sounds like this was a really unsafe environment. And throughout the course of the years depending on what kind of abuse, the level of abuse
that he suffered, sure, there could be, I should say, some level of cognitive dysfunction --
JACKSON: I would --
KRAVITZ: Yes, sorry to cut you. This is not -- you know, this is not a case of like the Menendez brothers who killed for money or this doesn`t seem to
be a case of a mean teenager. We haven`t heard any reports like that. This seems to be a teenager who was really desperate and felt unsafe in his own
home.
JACKSON: Needless to say -- do we still have Dave Priest with us? So, I`ll ask you then.
BRUNO: I got to make a point.
JACKSON: Please.
BRUNO: First of all, this is a 16-year-old. The prosecutor`s office knows the most information to date. And they made one decision so far. And that
is to treat this individual like an adult. OK? So that`s an important decision. If the prosecutor`s office knowing the facts and the
circumstances of the murder thought that there may be some defenses,
{20:40:00] they may have kept it down in juvenile court and treated this individual as a juvenile.
JACKSON: My only issue with that, David, is that a lot of times -- and this disturbs me, prosecutors act based upon the political, you know, necessity
of the community wants, oh, my goodness, this is so horrible, so we have to charge it as an adult instead of the factual issue. But, more to come. All
right. Indeed.
Now, a shocking discovery in Tempe, Arizona. It`s in a parking lot. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It still has the umbilical cord?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, little girl.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Baby still has umbilical cord.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: A newborn baby girl. She`s found abandoned in a Jonas Brothers backpack. Now police are searching for her parents. That`s next.
[20:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JACKSON: In Tempe, Arizona, police are searching for the parents of this little girl. She was found abandoned in a Jonas Brothers backpack in a
grocery store parking lot in early June. Look at how beautiful. Cam video tells the story. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Brand-new baby.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It still has the umbilical cord?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, little girl.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Baby still has umbilical cord.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: Investigators say that the baby was newly born, maybe just 30 minutes old. Now, they canvassed the area and searched surveillance video,
but haven`t had any luck identifying the girl`s mother nor the girl`s father.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just dropped off? Somebody --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where -- where was it found?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In a grocery cart?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the store or --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They left the grocery cart outside.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Outside. Where was it outside?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right between here and Family Dollar.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Customer came in, he say --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where is the customer?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He left already. He was outside.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He -- he spoke Spanish. My Spanish is good, but not the best, but --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, he only spoke Spanish?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From there, I grabbed the baby. I think the guy disappears, because -- I didn`t really pay attention. My focus is on the
newborn baby.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: Now, the baby girl spent two days in the hospital. And her medical exams, I`m glad to report, show no exposure to drugs nor any alcohol. She`s
presently in Child Protective Services custody as the search for her parents continues. What a story.
Tom Perumean is a reporter with KTAR. He joins us from Phoenix. That`s News 92.3. So take us through this. So we have people who just come upon -- how
did this all unfold? It seems that the people who were there really did their job to preserve and protect this baby.
TOM PERUMEAN, KTAR NEWS 92.3 REPORTER (via telephone): Well, yes, those folks certainly do a lot of credit for saving this baby`s life. The baby
was abandoned at Food City. This is on Apache Boulevard near McClintock Drive at around 7:45 on a Sunday. That`s probably just after sundown in
this area.
And a seven-pound baby girl wrapped in a blanket inside a Jonas Brothers backpack. I mean, that`s really crazy. I mean, if that child had been left
there for any amount of time, it certainly would have died, especially in the heat that we have in the valley during this period of time.
JACKSON: Absolutely, Tom. So what ends up happening? So, who spots the child? How do they end up taking the baby? Who do they take it to? Give us
a sense of how they ended up securing this precious little one.
PERUMEAN: An employee out in the parking lot, probably collecting shopping carts to bring them back in the store, was told by a passer-by, hey,
there`s something in this shopping cart. The person that told him spoke Spanish, as you heard on the video, he spoke pretty good Spanish.
And the employee saw that something was moving in this backpack and took the child inside and, of course, they notified authorities. And once again,
the Fire Department was right across the street. So if this little girl was in any kind of trouble, they got there almost, you know, within moments.
And the little girl is all right. And they went through -- they asked the person that had found the child and they gave him a full line of
questioning. They went back and looked at store video. They found that that was almost not helpful in any way whatsoever.
So, you know, everything relies on where is that person that had dropped the baby off? They apparently found that person, but he wasn`t really able
to provide any new information about who the mother was, who the father is, who the baby is, what have you. But what we have is we have a foundling
that, you know, has a fresh start and hopefully a much better start in life than the one she got.
JACKSON: We hope so, Tom Perumean. You know, we have a tip line up. This is -- do you know this baby? You see the tip line number there, 480-350-8311.
We always say if you see something, say something. It takes a village. And fortunately, because of the village, this precious little girl is safe. You
know, again, pursuant to the medical report, no alcohol in the system, no drugs in the system. That`s a beautiful thing.
We also have Detective Lily Duran. She is the public information officer with the Tempe Police Department. So nice of you to join us here. So tell
us about what your department is doing, and before you do, I just want to point out to the viewers, that there are safe haven laws, are there not?
And could you explain what those laws are and how they protect people who don`t want their children.
DET. LILY DURAN, DETECTIVE, TEMPE POLICE DEPARTMENT (via telephone): Hi, thank you for having me. Yes, that is correct. Our state has safe haven
laws which means that a child, once it`s born, if they are turned over
[20:50:00] to a safe haven such as a Fire Department within the first 72 hours after they are born, they can leave that child there and they will
not be prosecuted criminally or in any other way and they can remain anonymous. Most of these havens don`t have any cameras, so that way, you
know, it`s completely anonymous.
And so some of the efforts that we are doing is continuing to talk to people in that area, people that live there, that area where she was found
is high frequent by foot. There`s a lot of people walking through there, a lot of cars. So we`re hoping that somebody saw something in that area.
Also businesses conducting canvases and so this is an ongoing effort. This is something that has hit our community very hard. It`s very shocking to
know that a baby like her was left out in the heat, but again we were very happy to know that she`s a healthy baby girl.
JACKSON: That is absolutely the case, Detective Duran. Just on that issue, you know, we`ll talk about what you intend to do if you find the parents or
the father.
But just in terms of the safe haven laws, because I think this is an educational moment for all of us really, that community and other
communities for people to know that there are laws that exist that, look, if you don`t want your child, don`t leave them in the cold, don`t leave
them in the hot, don`t leave them in the rain, don`t leave them anywhere.
Just take them to a safe haven location and no questions asked, you`ll be okay. Is there outreach, Detective Duran, that you do or your police
department does to educate the community about these laws or moving forward, is it your intention to do that?
DURAN: You know, this is -- yes, absolutely. This is an opportunity for us to get that word out. There`s people that come into our area. Tempe is a
city where we have lots of new people coming in because ASU is right there, so we have lots of new residents coming in. And, you know, maybe they might
not know about these laws.
So that`s something that we really stress to our community through community outreach programs and letting them know this is -- that safe
haven laws are here in place to protect the babies as well as those family members that maybe can`t care for those babies.
JACKSON: It`s so important, Detective Duran. If I can just ask you. What is the intent now of the police department? I know you guys don`t recommend
charges to the state`s attorneys office. But would it be the intention to prosecute and if so, for what?
DURAN: Well, I think it`s important to be able to -- once we identify those parents, is to get their side of the story to actually speak to them. I
mean, they haven`t come forward. And it`s been a little bit over a month, which is alarming, but you never really know what situation that mother is
in.
What circumstances led her to leave this baby out there. And so our primary concern is to identify that person, speak to the mom, what were the
circumstances. Was she forced to do this? What kind of things made her do something like this?
So that`s our primary thing. And yes, down the line, it is possible that they could be facing child abuse charges, not just the parents, but perhaps
anyone that might have known about this incident and has not come forward.
JACKSON: Detective Lily Duran, we are grateful and appreciative to you, and keep getting the word out about those safe haven laws. Just bring in the
lawyers momentarily, Caroline Polisi, of course David Bruno, quick reactions to this. You want a baby safe. That`s why you have these laws.
POLISI: Yes. This is exactly why, Joey, we see more and more states enacting these safe haven laws. We want parents to know that there are
options because the alternative is much, much worse.
JACKSON: Absolutely.
BRUNO: This story hits home for me. I have a 5-week-old at home. And the fact is I think this show does need to be about education. Just look back
to the first two blocks that we had, where a mother was charged with killing three children. So education is important. And sad story, but
hopefully this baby finds a nice home.
JACKSON: It`s a great story, though, at the end of the day. Look at that precious girl. She`s okay, right? Could be worse. All right. Now, this
Sunday is the fourth season of "The Hunt" and that`s with John Walsh. It premieres at 8:00 p.m. Eastern time.
Walsh has made the search for these fugitives or for all fugitive really, his life`s work. And this week he`s on the hunt for a rapist who forced a
17-year-old victim to marry him, then imprisoned her in a psychological cage for seven years. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I never loved him, but over the next two years, I started to bond with him. And I knew that this was not a normal bonding. I
didn`t want to be with him. But it felt like I had to go along with his demands.
JOHN WALSH, THE HUNT SHOW HOST: This is Stockholm syndrome. Stockholm syndrome bends your thinking.
[20:55:00] It bends your ability to get away. It bends you into submission and bends you into compliance to stay alive.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It felt like he was unraveling. He called himself the last voice of the church age. And he told me that he was a prophet of God.
Once time he made me watch videos of executions from war conflicts. He told me that`s what I`ll do to you if you leave.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: And "The Hunt with John Walsh" airs Sunday at 8:00 p.m. Eastern. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JACKSON: On behalf of Ashleigh Banfield and the entire HLN "Primetime Justice" team,
[21:00:00] we appreciate you watching. We appreciate our guests, Caroline Polisi, David Bruno, and all of you at home. "Forensic Files" begins right
now. Good night. I`m Joey Jackson.
END
